LilyRain

Those numbers that you happen to NOT know are ALWAYS relevant when discussing weapon balancing, they define everything. You have shown that are not aware of weapon-stats in numbers, as you have already stated that no lethal weapons kill faster than 0.6 seconds.. That is false and you were told it is false by more than just myself in this thread. I kindly told you to go learn the numbers then come back to discuss things properly. Last chance to do so. If you continue this behavior rather than learn the numbers and actually contribute to the forums, then you are risking complete destruction of your credibility (which you know was crushed already and thus talking like this). You are also risking a timeout from the forums. At the very beginning, you claimed to be "sane". Time to prove it.

Last chance, are you able to speak numbers?

Then you shouldn't be here. You are comparing 0.6s to the old JG-Snub that was doable in 0.1s.. Joke of the Century. Thanks for making it clear that nobody should listen to whatever you type from this day forward.

You were not able to answer with a number in seconds. Your case is closed.

Are you able to state exactly how long that combination takes in seconds?

I see you are still desperate for another stride and further show everyone that you are incapable of comprehending basic weapon-balancing discussions. Let us see here: - You got a lot of people in this very thread quoting your mistakes. Great job. - PIG is a tazer, that is what it does. It is only a problem to those who have a phobia against San Paro Jail. The weapon was like this for years and was never a problem whatsoever. If it was, everyone would simply be Enforcers with PIGs. We would have seen intense shortage in Criminals... Neither was the case, not by a long shot. - Nice slip up, Troll. You know the PIG is now useless with CCG and said it clearly is yourself. #EnglishIs2Hard - The N-HVR nerf is nowhere as bad as this, it is still functional, simply because Secondary→Primary works just fine. Too bad you spent all these hours in-game and still unaware of this. - Thanks for further proving that you are unaware of weapon stats. You really, REALLY can't contribute to weapon balancing.

PIG and those "unconventional tactics" were unreasonable and still required to remotely compete in the game with LTL... Lethal weapons do better without risk... without needing to switch.. without losing loadout slots and some of them don't even require the right-mouse-button. You call PIG a problem yet it isn't at all. People are just angry they messed up and ended up getting arrested, period. LTL is the least problematic thing in the game.

Excellent, then you have no reason to oppose this thread as that is its entire point.

End of discussion? More so welcome to the discussion.. We are in the 4th page of the thread and you still have no clue to what is happening. We are discussing the indirect nerf to the LTL-arsenal, while PIG+perc is still the same as ever. Those wanting to PIG+perc won't exist in this thread as they have not been affected at all. Percussion Grenades range is still stupidly wide and forgiving. I have enough skill and in fact arrested some of the best players that happen to be famous in both NA and EU. I am long ago at Cop Role 15 and Percussion Grenades are actually a mistake in serious matches. I in fact would like for Percs to be nerfed. Clearly you don't want them nerfed because there is a high-chance you resort to them with the other.. incredibly more busted combinations that would in fact render PIG+perc a joke. To further prove that you are completely clueless and a total-troll: the very picture you showed about your total playtime shows that you still have Mobile Cover equipped.. that consumable has been disabled for a good while now.. It seems you don't even have the skill to buy a mod from the Joker Store. Thanks for the jokes

I am sorry, but you are very mistaken.. Consistency is not a problem against PIG as it only goes up to a maximum of 9 meters.. Most PIG users would fight at 5-6 meters.. if you miss at that range, God help you. Even the new JG+Snub is faster as I have shown above. You simply did not read. And no, Kempington's concerns were debunked. I am interested in seeing what he says next.

CSG+PIG has the exact same time-to-stun as ISSR-B+PIG and CCG+PIG (0.6s), so no, nothing here was forgotten. You just said no lethal weapon in the game can kill faster than that combination (0.6s)... which is enough for most people to discredit anything you say from this point onwards.. You keep calling people stupid but the fact that you posted your total play time yet still unaware of this fact tells everything. More of a reason to further say that you are yet to partake in any weapon-balancing discussion. Kindly step away and expand your knowledge rather than make a fool out of yourself.

Thanks for confirming that your knowledge is severely limited and that you don't belong in any weapon-balancing discussion. Play the game some more.

Because only those who fail with the best CQC weapons would want LTL nerfed.

Weapon-stats define what is possible and what is not. Your concerns also confirms that even people at your caliber only think about Primary→Secondary switching, but totally forget about the back-cycle (Secondary→Primary), which is important to examine your example about 'chaining-stuns'. Therefore, things really don't work that way in APB unless the Enforcer is playing against Silvers/Bronzes. WHICH would mean the Enforcer would literally delete those Criminals if they ditch LTL and go full-lethal. Let us examine your concerns in what you have written. The setting: Say an Enforcer is using ISSR-B/CCG+PIG prior to the PIG-nerf (both the ISSR-B and CCG require 1 full-second to equip, so they are evenly matched when it comes to this tactic). CQC-Criminal messes up so Enforcer succeeds in getting the first stun within 0.6s (practically a bit longer, but let's go with the stats). 2nd Criminal converges towards the Enforcer to finish what their partner began. Enforcer's situation and best scenario: The PIG is already equipped after stunning the first target, but requires reloading as it can fire once per mag. With that said, the enforcer MUST spend 1.25 seconds to reload the PIG (which is already long enough to guarantee death). Best case scenario the Enforcer is able to fire as soon as the PIG is reloaded (+ zero seconds). Finally, the Enforcer will need 1 FULL second to go back to the ISSR-B/CCG in order to land the finishing shot. If everything goes perfectly, the Enforcer would need 2.25 seconds in total to stun the 2nd criminal.. which IS NOT going to happen in a match against Golds. 2.25 seconds is enough to die by a weapon that kills in 0.7s exactly 3 times. Let alone quick and/or modded CQC weapons such as ACES, OCA, PMG, Manic,. In a mission that isn't filled with players learning the ropes, this tactic is only effective against a singular target, simply because LTL primaries are gimped in everything, including weapon equip times (you already know how gimped and weak LTL weapons are and you facepalm live on Twitch whenever you see a teammate with LTL). Therefore, your concern doesn't really happen. Furthermore, players these days are interested in getting the perfect-looking scoreboard and tbagging... nobody actually abuses mission times in this way because it actually backfires. Those who spawn slightly-late would have a lead and be on their way towards getting to the next mission objective and get the best spots. ------------------------------------- Furthermore, ISSR-B has a minimum time to kill of 0.9 seconds, which is usually not achievable because of the weapon's spread. 0.9s is quite high for a time to kill in mediocre to serious matches. The PIG is also limited to 9 meters plus the slow-speed of backward-switching explained above. Therefore, the combination of ISSR-B/CCG+PIG easily pales and falls short in comparison to MANY loadout choices at any given range. It really was never a problem as it can be easily dealt with. ------------------------------------- Additionally about 'chaining'. With the latest changes, the JG+Snub combo that was deemed acceptable to have a Primary→Secondary switch time of 0.5s.. is actually the combo that is remotely capable of dancing back and forth between Gold opponents.. simply because: Fun fact: The latest changes made Snub→JG FASTER than JG→Snub, which makes the tactic viable BOTH ways. Its backward-cycle is far from being absurdly slow, especially when JG is equipped with 3-point-sling-3 as that is the standard mod for this tactic.. 3PS3-JG requires 0.49s to equip!! To make things easier, neither the JG nor the Snub have a bolt-timer mechanic and the smallest magazine capacity of both weapons is the Snub's, at 6 bullets per mag... So the Player is in fact able to get a kill every half a second and potentially wipe an inflated-mission that contains 6 vs 6 players like this SOLO!! If this was deemed acceptable, again.. there is really NO justifying stunning a singular Gold-player in 0.6 seconds a problem. It truly never was.

It actually solves some issues, unlike the latest change. So percs will stop being a panic-button that works with everything. There are far more notorious, cheap combinations than PIG+perc and are actually way more devastating. The most recent buff to the OCA with CJ3 + perc is one of them. So is perc+aces, perc+pmg, and many others. All of these 'issues' would be solved if Percs get the nerf they should've got long time ago. You are indirectly implying that using the OCA is more skillful, which is wrong on all fronts, yet the OCA deserved a buff in ttk? You do realize that cj3-OCA can now kill in 0.6s, the same amount of time all the LTL-hassle with PIG barely does AT ITS BEST at 1ms server latency... without even having to right-mouse-click.. Unbelievable. You and your team on this very 'weapon balance' changes also deemed the jg+snub combo to kill within 0.5s acceptable.. You can't possibly justify that 0.6s (which is longer) to stun is not okay.. stun, not even kill, which automatically comes with a lot of sacrifices as well. It is very apparent that this nerf is rage-driven & you are abusing your position to make it happen.

It very much is, considering stock-PMG is faster & more braindead, let alone a modified one. And now OCA triumphs over both with its buff. I am sorry, but being ignorant to stats doesn't put you in the "sane" group.

Yet cj3 OCA/Euryale is fine? At least LTL+PIG required skill and effort yet still falls short to these. Might wanna actually play the game with something respectable before trying to state concluding remarks.

Very true, they are thinking things would get balanced with minimal-changes. No balance works without counter-balances placed nearby

That is a big claim. Kindly elaborate as to why reducing stamina damage on Percussion Grenades is not viable. Will the CCG get a buff down the line with the upcoming Weapon Balance changes? If yes, please let us all rest easy. If not, kindly elaborate as to how the PIG can still be a game changer when skillfully paired with the CCG.

Yeah, that weapon now has 0.672s time to kill.. Yayyy~~... ridiculous The upcoming Weapon Balance iteration better be complimentary to this one, or this would be a revival of the OCA-meta meme (which already is in effect as Players are now just using OCA in Asylum). Every few balance patches are just OCA-buff, OCA-nerf, OCA-buff, OCA-nerf. We'll get nowhere like this.

Quality > Quantity: The number of circumstances where TG-8 can be better than OCSP matter not when OCSP would always triumph in a game where Players know what they are doing. Also ttk/tts superseeds stk/sts. Case 1: Grenades Enabled (proper high-level play) - An OCSP-player with Concussion Grenades would cook the grenade for 4 seconds, then follow up with a single shot to finish the job. OCSP requiring 0.35s to equip means the player can equip OCSP while the cooked grenade is flying, so there is virtually no extra time here. ttk for this player should be the practically the same as the time needed to prep the grenade, or 0s depending on the point of reference. - A TG-8 player WITH a stun-grenade would also cook the grenade for 4 seconds, but TG-8 needs 0.6s to fire, most often exceeding the time needed by the OCSP player, which already is a clear loss (provided the stun-grenade doesn't land perfectly). Additionally, The OCSP can shoot twice before TG-8 gets to shoot once, so on top of losing the ability to disable cars, TG-8 still loses in an equal-effort/skill strat, which is not okay as skill should matter more. It gets much worse if the TG-8 player was using concussions to have more meaningful presence in a mission as the TG-8 requires 3 shots to stun with a Concussion. That's easily ~4.4s+. Case 2: Grenades not used or not available - Pure OCSP's total ttk is 1.49s (0.35s to equip, 1.14s to kill), whereas pure TG-8's time to stun is 1.6s (0.6s to equip, 1s to stun). - Furthermore, OCSP is a lethal secondary, which will surely be accompanied by a lethal primary. Lethal primaries excel in both ttk and equip times compared to LTL-primaries, so that's already twice the edge in loadout effectiveness. By a big gap too. +2 points for Lethals, -1 LTL. That is quite a gap to cover and 9/10 won't happen in a high-level, premade meta-driven match. ------------------------------------------------------ It is like this because high-level players won't be running around with secondaries out before exhausting their primaries. The minor cases where one would prefer to run around with a secondary is if the primary weapon affects speed (e.g N-HVR and OSMAW). But then again, neither OCSP nor TG-8 would be chosen in this case either unless the player was trying to salvage some fun from APB.

But the TG-8 takes much longer to equip compared to the OCSP. 0.6s vs 0.35s is quite a lot, it over-offsets the ttk/tts difference. OCSP also benefits from crouching by 30%, while TG-8 has a crouch-modifier of 1, meaning crouching with TG-8 does absolutely nothing.

It used to be faster by 0.4s, now it is faster by only 0.1s at perfect timing at 1 ms latency. So practically not faster at all for easily most people. The PIG-nerf was overkill. Switching from CCG to PIG is now more risky with absolutely zero merits when using a CCG as a primary LTL weapon. Unless CCG gets a buff in time-to-stun, this was a bad move.

Expected result. The Corsair is a slightly stronger NL9 but uses lethal-ammunition. It requires 1.2 seconds to kill AT PERFECT EXECUTION.. Most average meta weapons would almost have killed you twice by then as they require ~0.7 seconds to kill.. If you miss a single shot, that will push the time to kill up to a staggering 1.8 seconds.. which is slower than a stock N-HVR sniper (1.75s). You must exercise tactics in your play as the weapon doesn't excel at anything remarkable. Start with a Concussion Grenade then chop the remaining health away as it deals 40% damage per shot. Too bad that with the latest nerf to N-HVR damage, the Corsair lost its ability to complement and assist/steal kills up to 100m.. So an indirect-nerf to the Corsair is now effective. Your best bet is to hold corners or start with a Concussion Grenade. Else, don't bother with this weapon.