LilyRain

Weapon-stats define what is possible and what is not. Your concerns also confirms that even people at your caliber only think about Primary→Secondary switching, but totally forget about the back-cycle (Secondary→Primary), which is important to examine your example about 'chaining-stuns'. Therefore, things really don't work that way in APB unless the Enforcer is playing against Silvers/Bronzes. WHICH would mean the Enforcer would literally delete those Criminals if they ditch LTL and go full-lethal. Let us examine your concerns in what you have written. The setting: Say an Enforcer is using ISSR-B/CCG+PIG prior to the PIG-nerf (both the ISSR-B and CCG require 1 full-second to equip, so they are evenly matched when it comes to this tactic). CQC-Criminal messes up so Enforcer succeeds in getting the first stun within 0.6s (practically a bit longer, but let's go with the stats). 2nd Criminal converges towards the Enforcer to finish what their partner began. Enforcer's situation and best scenario: The PIG is already equipped after stunning the first target, but requires reloading as it can fire once per mag. With that said, the enforcer MUST spend 1.25 seconds to reload the PIG (which is already long enough to guarantee death). Best case scenario the Enforcer is able to fire as soon as the PIG is reloaded (+ zero seconds). Finally, the Enforcer will need 1 FULL second to go back to the ISSR-B/CCG in order to land the finishing shot. If everything goes perfectly, the Enforcer would need 2.25 seconds in total to stun the 2nd criminal.. which IS NOT going to happen in a match against Golds. 2.25 seconds is enough to die by a weapon that kills in 0.7s exactly 3 times. Let alone quick and/or modded CQC weapons such as ACES, OCA, PMG, Manic,. In a mission that isn't filled with players learning the ropes, this tactic is only effective against a singular target, simply because LTL primaries are gimped in everything, including weapon equip times (you already know how gimped and weak LTL weapons are and you facepalm live on Twitch whenever you see a teammate with LTL). Therefore, your concern doesn't really happen. Furthermore, players these days are interested in getting the perfect-looking scoreboard and tbagging... nobody actually abuses mission times in this way because it actually backfires. Those who spawn slightly-late would have a lead and be on their way towards getting to the next mission objective and get the best spots. ------------------------------------- Furthermore, ISSR-B has a minimum time to kill of 0.9 seconds, which is usually not achievable because of the weapon's spread. 0.9s is quite high for a time to kill in mediocre to serious matches. The PIG is also limited to 9 meters plus the slow-speed of backward-switching explained above. Therefore, the combination of ISSR-B/CCG+PIG easily pales and falls short in comparison to MANY loadout choices at any given range. It really was never a problem as it can be easily dealt with. ------------------------------------- Additionally about 'chaining'. With the latest changes, the JG+Snub combo that was deemed acceptable to have a Primary→Secondary switch time of 0.5s.. is actually the combo that is remotely capable of dancing back and forth between Gold opponents.. simply because: Fun fact: The latest changes made Snub→JG FASTER than JG→Snub, which makes the tactic viable BOTH ways. Its backward-cycle is far from being absurdly slow, especially when JG is equipped with 3-point-sling-3 as that is the standard mod for this tactic.. 3PS3-JG requires 0.49s to equip!! To make things easier, neither the JG nor the Snub have a bolt-timer mechanic and the smallest magazine capacity of both weapons is the Snub's, at 6 bullets per mag... So the Player is in fact able to get a kill every half a second and potentially wipe an inflated-mission that contains 6 vs 6 players like this SOLO!! If this was deemed acceptable, again.. there is really NO justifying stunning a singular Gold-player in 0.6 seconds a problem. It truly never was.

It actually solves some issues, unlike the latest change. So percs will stop being a panic-button that works with everything. There are far more notorious, cheap combinations than PIG+perc and are actually way more devastating. The most recent buff to the OCA with CJ3 + perc is one of them. So is perc+aces, perc+pmg, and many others. All of these 'issues' would be solved if Percs get the nerf they should've got long time ago. You are indirectly implying that using the OCA is more skillful, which is wrong on all fronts, yet the OCA deserved a buff in ttk? You do realize that cj3-OCA can now kill in 0.6s, the same amount of time all the LTL-hassle with PIG barely does AT ITS BEST at 1ms server latency... without even having to right-mouse-click.. Unbelievable. You and your team on this very 'weapon balance' changes also deemed the jg+snub combo to kill within 0.5s acceptable.. You can't possibly justify that 0.6s (which is longer) to stun is not okay.. stun, not even kill, which automatically comes with a lot of sacrifices as well. It is very apparent that this nerf is rage-driven & you are abusing your position to make it happen.

It very much is, considering stock-PMG is faster & more braindead, let alone a modified one. And now OCA triumphs over both with its buff. I am sorry, but being ignorant to stats doesn't put you in the "sane" group.

Yet cj3 OCA/Euryale is fine? At least LTL+PIG required skill and effort yet still falls short to these. Might wanna actually play the game with something respectable before trying to state concluding remarks.

Very true, they are thinking things would get balanced with minimal-changes. No balance works without counter-balances placed nearby

That is a big claim. Kindly elaborate as to why reducing stamina damage on Percussion Grenades is not viable. Will the CCG get a buff down the line with the upcoming Weapon Balance changes? If yes, please let us all rest easy. If not, kindly elaborate as to how the PIG can still be a game changer when skillfully paired with the CCG.

Yeah, that weapon now has 0.672s time to kill.. Yayyy~~... ridiculous The upcoming Weapon Balance iteration better be complimentary to this one, or this would be a revival of the OCA-meta meme (which already is in effect as Players are now just using OCA in Asylum). Every few balance patches are just OCA-buff, OCA-nerf, OCA-buff, OCA-nerf. We'll get nowhere like this.

Quality > Quantity: The number of circumstances where TG-8 can be better than OCSP matter not when OCSP would always triumph in a game where Players know what they are doing. Also ttk/tts superseeds stk/sts. Case 1: Grenades Enabled (proper high-level play) - An OCSP-player with Concussion Grenades would cook the grenade for 4 seconds, then follow up with a single shot to finish the job. OCSP requiring 0.35s to equip means the player can equip OCSP while the cooked grenade is flying, so there is virtually no extra time here. ttk for this player should be the practically the same as the time needed to prep the grenade, or 0s depending on the point of reference. - A TG-8 player WITH a stun-grenade would also cook the grenade for 4 seconds, but TG-8 needs 0.6s to fire, most often exceeding the time needed by the OCSP player, which already is a clear loss (provided the stun-grenade doesn't land perfectly). Additionally, The OCSP can shoot twice before TG-8 gets to shoot once, so on top of losing the ability to disable cars, TG-8 still loses in an equal-effort/skill strat, which is not okay as skill should matter more. It gets much worse if the TG-8 player was using concussions to have more meaningful presence in a mission as the TG-8 requires 3 shots to stun with a Concussion. That's easily ~4.4s+. Case 2: Grenades not used or not available - Pure OCSP's total ttk is 1.49s (0.35s to equip, 1.14s to kill), whereas pure TG-8's time to stun is 1.6s (0.6s to equip, 1s to stun). - Furthermore, OCSP is a lethal secondary, which will surely be accompanied by a lethal primary. Lethal primaries excel in both ttk and equip times compared to LTL-primaries, so that's already twice the edge in loadout effectiveness. By a big gap too. +2 points for Lethals, -1 LTL. That is quite a gap to cover and 9/10 won't happen in a high-level, premade meta-driven match. ------------------------------------------------------ It is like this because high-level players won't be running around with secondaries out before exhausting their primaries. The minor cases where one would prefer to run around with a secondary is if the primary weapon affects speed (e.g N-HVR and OSMAW). But then again, neither OCSP nor TG-8 would be chosen in this case either unless the player was trying to salvage some fun from APB.

But the TG-8 takes much longer to equip compared to the OCSP. 0.6s vs 0.35s is quite a lot, it over-offsets the ttk/tts difference. OCSP also benefits from crouching by 30%, while TG-8 has a crouch-modifier of 1, meaning crouching with TG-8 does absolutely nothing.

It used to be faster by 0.4s, now it is faster by only 0.1s at perfect timing at 1 ms latency. So practically not faster at all for easily most people. The PIG-nerf was overkill. Switching from CCG to PIG is now more risky with absolutely zero merits when using a CCG as a primary LTL weapon. Unless CCG gets a buff in time-to-stun, this was a bad move.

Expected result. The Corsair is a slightly stronger NL9 but uses lethal-ammunition. It requires 1.2 seconds to kill AT PERFECT EXECUTION.. Most average meta weapons would almost have killed you twice by then as they require ~0.7 seconds to kill.. If you miss a single shot, that will push the time to kill up to a staggering 1.8 seconds.. which is slower than a stock N-HVR sniper (1.75s). You must exercise tactics in your play as the weapon doesn't excel at anything remarkable. Start with a Concussion Grenade then chop the remaining health away as it deals 40% damage per shot. Too bad that with the latest nerf to N-HVR damage, the Corsair lost its ability to complement and assist/steal kills up to 100m.. So an indirect-nerf to the Corsair is now effective. Your best bet is to hold corners or start with a Concussion Grenade. Else, don't bother with this weapon.

And where exactly is my "thread?" Not sure how you failed this badly to the point where you don't know what a thread is.

It has every reason to be at 950 stamina-damage, dear-Unicorn PIG-switching requires a lot of firepower to be sacrificed as well as overall much less versatility just to be in the overly-risky position to make this possible. Not only the player will be severely and objectively not helpful to their team (because dealing stamina damage and soft damage are on different universes), LTL's soft-damage contribution is meaningless towards assist kills, which is a guaranteed scenario if the PIG misses unless the player is playing against legit Bronzes, which may still land a kill despite bullets missing due to the gap in weapons being severely absurd. APB is currently being pushed into a direction that is one-step-short from being a tab-targetting Asian MMO.. player-skill is being pushed from barely useful to useless. To put things into perspective, on top of all these sacrifices, an LTLer MUST play perfectly as well as not get randomly-denied by the server to achieve a THEORETICALLY stun time of 0.6s (practically, it is more than 0.6s), which is still not fast enough to subdue SHAW and Euryale at their stock variants! One will never see a Euryale without cooling jacket. It gets even worse in Asylum where a cj3 Euryale literally deletes people in 0.54 seconds! Not even the Cop-15 PIG can match that at perfect execution and server latency of 1ms. Yet Euryale gets to do it with zero effort and risk on ALL fronts! This is simply not okay. A GOOD combination of LTL & PIG at perfect execution were still 'Less Than Lethal', both figuratively and practically on the field. This change does not come with a buff to LTLs Arsenal in all of the other aspects that are already below the floor to compensate. ------------------------------------------ - Players always push in APB with grenades. It is a law due to how APB is currently. Without grenades, the pushing-player will lose to almost anyone that has corner-advantage. This is not a sound justification to further nerf the over-nerfed LTL as the same argument can be used to nerf anything in the game. Furthermore, one can simply push a 0.6s PIG-user with a Percussion Grenade even, that panic-button works wonders. What's worse is that the button can be pushed twice for a juicy 80% damage and be resupplied infinitely from a nearby parked team-vehicle or by just pressing 5 through Field Supplier while the PIG will be useless due to the PIG's range limit of mere 9 meters. - The opposite can be said and is more solid, ISSR is the weapon that has no business dealing stamina-damage. Kill that weapon's stamina-damage instead. Please revert this change and instead tackle what needs to be tackled, Percussion Grenades. This change is uncalled for and doesn't solve the actual cheese, perc+PIG and perc+everything. All it does is actually promote more perc+PIGing than respectable LTL-play, no lie.

I was hoping to see reactions become non-anonymous so people get to see who agrees/disagrees with what.

It really is not considering a lot of strats can do this but faster and better. It is part of the current-game. It is also barely on par with meta weapons, which hold zero risk at all. I also don't think you understand the "incoming change" as that still pertains to perc+everything. You're telling me pig+perc is better...?

@Sakebee It is good to see changes happening across the board rather than 1 or 2 weapons at a time. It gets things done much quicker and overall more functional. But like some have expressed, I heavily disagree with the PIG change. I do agree that pig+perc is cheap and needs to be effectively gone for good, but you haven't removed that. You decided to keep that as mentioned in APB-News and thus, ended up keeping the bad and removing the barely-functional playstyles. LTL primaries are weak and inferior in EVERY aspect there is.. (time to stun, equip time, reload time, unnecessary and nonsensical bloom-mechanic that TG-8 has compared to the FBW, etc). In order for LTL to be BARELY competitive around the average ttk in the game of 0.7s, the player MUST give up both primary & secondary slots to be LTL as well as play PERFECTLY via effective switching, which automatically adds the risk of shots not registering through possible ghost shots by the server... plus one's own latency affects the switch-times, because everything is done server-side.. add to that the fact that LTLs don't offer open-slots to make things overall less worse.. The stun-grenade route also kills having a more dependable-grenade to effectively attempt to disable vehicles, which is also a massive downside and a further uphill.. Enforcers must give up an equipment slot to make arrest-times not a death-sentence via cuffmate 4, while criminals don't even need the universal-key to free arrested criminals at the same speed.. plus re-arresting doesn't count without the Criminal dying first.. and a bunch more inconveniences.. these are a big discussion on their own. ---------------------------------------------- With the PIG's change, the following WILL CONTINUE to be a thing in APB: Perc+PIG (It is still a thing) Perc+Aces (Dear God) Perc+PMG Perc+OCA Perc+Colby .45 (.......) Perc+JG (still delicious with a certain, zero-downsides mod) Perc+CSG Perc+Tas-20 Perc+FBW Perc+N-tec Perc+ATAC Perc+Manic Perc+Carbine . . Perc+A WHOLE LOT OTHER THINGS!! (Do you see a trend here?) Your reasoning for the PIG change is: "The combination of Percussion Grenades and the PIG can be oppressive. By lowering the stamina damage of the PIG from 950 to 675, we are forcing users to hit their percussion grenade more accurately and follow up the throw with a shot from the PIG faster. This should preserver the strategy but make the combination require more skill to pull off." This is severely in the opposite direction. Percussion Grenades have a max damage radius of 300 cm, which is very easy to attain even by average players. It is also not possible to "follow up the throw with a shot from the PIG faster" when the equip time of the PIG has not been changed. This change was clearly rushed or driven by someone who dislikes and doesn't understand one of the core-values of this game, Enforcers vs Criminals. Good idea but completely misguided and non-revised execution. You are trying to keep the strategy remain within the game (the opposite of what people are asking for, which is still relatively fine if done right). But the change still DOESN'T "require more skill to pull off". Perc+PIG will continue to exist as it always have alongside all the cheap combinations above. Instead of making Percussions less oppressive with anything that they are used with, you have killed the other, non-cheap LTL strategies that actually require skill, work and more importantly risk to pull off. The problem is not the PIG, it is the immensely-rewarding panic-button that is Percussion Grenades! Suggested Changes: - Revert PIG's stamina damage back to 950 (required supplemental equip-times and its reload time of 1.25 seconds already guarantee death if the shot either misses or gets ghosted by the server). Plan A: - Reduce Percussion Grenades stamina damage (350 → 50) - Reduce Percussion Grenades soft damage (400 → 200) - Reduce max explosion damage radius (300cm → 200cm) - Reduce overall explosion radius (550cm → 325cm) Now THIS will require more skill and actually punish players for relying on a panic button. Alongside making perc+pig require pinpoint perc-throwing accuracy, other combinations such as perc+jg and perc+pmg won't be so cheap anymore. Plan B: - Increase Percussion Grenade throw time (0.2s → 0.45s). Adding 0.25 seconds is quite fair for a cheap panic button. It would also keep it as an okay-option to use, just not as oppressive.

Because while it may seem so from your perspective, they didn't really master APB to its core. They don't even know weapon stats and claim absurd things such as Volcano/OSMAW always wins & Less-Than-Lethal being overpowered than actual lethal weapons, which isn't even remotely close to the truth. Dethreaters are completely useless in a serious match without PMG or meta-weapons. They were delicious to feast upon when LO disabled threat-segregation a while back.. Dethreaters to Newcomers are like good players to dethreaters, the gap is simply too large both ways. Dethreaters WILL feast on Newcomers so long they are allowed to, because they'll get feasted upon otherwise.

"We are not your friends, never was or will be, we are your worst enemies, yet here you are listening to us... good luck with that lmao!!!" You just advised them not to listen to your thread.

Perhaps if it forces player movement-speed down to that of Kevlar 3's without equipping Kevlar 3...

Gentle reminder that most Ranters can't tell the difference between 95 meters and 50 meters..

There are games out there with test-servers open to the public. APB doing the same would be nice on paper. While having more players play the BETA than a small team that is SPCTs theoretically means more chances of finding bugs, the latest BETA was hiccing up more than Live, as if it was losing packets without losing packets. Regardless of the reason for it (servers/engine), the combination of APB 2.1 and servers that was open to public testing is just not ready yet. Perhaps on a later build down the road. There is also one massive-con to consider: Having a test-server open 24/7 means Live-population would sink even more.. WAY more. APB is not a new game and a lot of players are already max-ranked with nothing to progress further till the upcoming Contacts are released. Open the test-server 24/7 and those who need to progress will get even more of a difficult time to progress, especially those needing Waterfront on Jericho. Although not intentional, this move will simply kill even more players as the new engine will definitely take more time to go Live than those people quitting.

"Sadly I have to give up completely on APB, not because I want to, but because I am left with no other option." If only he knew PMG and what it can do.. No macros needed nor gitting gud with that weapon