LilyRain

Only if LTL gets buffed to where it should be.

That's another problem, it wasn't nerfed at all. It is still easy and cheap to do They confessed they wanted to keep the strategy of perc+PIG remain the same "This should preserver the strategy..." They should've nerfed percs rather than the PIG. That would've actually changed everything

Interesting. Very interesting.. What makes you so sure? Who is leaking information to you from LO/SPCT?

It is okay for LTL to be weaker than lethal weapons & that should be case, since Criminals have no access to them (or else re-skins as stolen-police weapons or whatever might be a necessary inclusion). The problem is that this is being used as an excuse to over-nerf LTL, which were already nerfed beyond existence by G1. There is no "risk/reward" when going against the currently buffed OCA (0.67s to kill and potentially 0.6s with cj3) with a weapon that stuns in 1.05.. This isn't risk, this is throwing the match. The gap need not be this large by any measure. The time needed for arrested-Criminals to respawn can and should be reduced as well. It is very doable.

The reason why LTL is nerfed to the ground is the flawed-understanding of the term "less than lethal". Less than Lethal means the weapon is less likely to kill than lethal weapons, period. It doesn't mean they are slower in neutralizing targets, less accurate or take longer to equip and fire. If anything Tazers are the fastest way to neutralize any target (headshots excluded, which don't exist in APB anyway). While LTL is kept weaker than Lethal weapons to prevent injustice to Criminal-characters (and that's fine), the gap need not be this ridiculously huge. It is naturally this huge because the gaps between Lethal-weapons themselves are huge as well. Weapon Balancing in this game currently puts a lot of emphasis on loadout-choices to the point where even perfect-plays without missing a shot or skipping a beat won't be enough despite the opponent actually missing a shot or two. It is simply wrong for a shooter to have player-skill be less than weapon-choice, no matter how you look at it. I really wish this would change even if by a little bit or APB won't be going anywhere. --------------------------------------------- - Gentle reminder that the OCA's ttk is no longer 0.7s, it is 0.672 without any cooling jacket at all, which would be a rare-sight. People at least run cooling jacket 2 and most would run cooling jacket 3 considering this weapon got a massive-buff, crouch-accuracy-buff as well (0.64s and 0.6s time-to-kills respectively). - DMR with Heavy-Barrel 3 becomes an LTL-sniper, it takes roughly the same time to stun as the NL9. That alone tells how slow the NL9 currently is. - Adding to the list of Cons, re-arresting a freed-Criminal without them dying again DOES NOT COUNT. Meaning it negates the slightly ever so small extra rewards as well as mission-score every now and then. There is also no blitzkrieg-equivalent for successive arrests, but mowing down people with an Euryale is pretty much Guaranteed MVP of the match. --------------------------------------------- CCG With the weapon's fire-rate being 0.15s, that's the increment-value that will translate to time-to-stun if the required number of shots is modified. Setting CCG to 6 shots would bring time-to-stun down to 0.75. That's STAR-grade time in CQC and still miles away from submachine-guns and shotguns. 7 shots is 0.9s time-to-stun and would still be injust to player skill, 6 is the better choice. CCG's fire-rate must be buffed slightly as well to bring it down to a workable 0.72 seconds (so that it won't be as fast as n-tec, carbine, tas20, etc) (0.15 → 0.144). While at it, bring STAR, Condor and the like's ttks down a bit to 0.71 or 0.715, they need not be that far behind n-tec and FAR considering they recover slow. - The weapon's equip time of 1 full-second is also ridiculous and can guarantee death. Bring it down to 0.8s like everything else. TG-8 It indeed is inaccurate with its bloom-mechanic that should not exist. 1 Second to stun is fine as the weapon is comparable to the FBW. Still a disadvantage against Colby .45 at arrest-range but it is fine. - The weapon for some reason is set to equip at a ridiculously-high time of 0.6s. Bring it down to FBW's time of 0.35s as it is comparable to that weapon. NL-9 2 shots are good for this weapon indeed. Reduce its fire interval as well (0.78s → 0.72s). But to compensate, reduce its range from 50 meters to 18m as the weapon should be a shotgun, not a sniper or a long-range dart-shooter (like who thought this was a good idea? Cops don't arrest at 50 meters) (or 15m for max damage if the weapon is given a trending-damage rather than have the slug vanish from existence at max range). - Bring the Equip time from 0.9s down to 0.8 like other shotguns. PIG A tazer should have immense stopping-power, but it shouldn't extend beyond what is reasonable. Buff the weapon's stamina damage back up to 950, but reduce its range from 9m to 6m. - Although it is a secondary. Giving it its power back is okay and good reason to have its equip-time remain at 0.6 seconds. O-PGL CD With progression in mind for incoming-players, the weapon is awarded at max cop-rank (level 15) and is nothing but a fun-item. Even though it is inferior in damage to the lethal-PGL, its blast-radius compensates, therefore it is fine as is. - The weapon equips exactly as fast as O-PGL 79R (1.3s), therefore no need to change its equip time. ----------------------------------------------------------- Afterwards, we can move forward to reducing gaps between Lethal-weapons themselves for a more fair experience. There will always be meta, but meta need not be that much ridiculously far ahead. Also nerf percussion grenades

That's exactly as to why you aren't capable of comprehending the situation nor remotely able to speak when it comes to weapon balancing. Criminals would only need to have their own weapons if and only if LTL is ever made overpowered, which is not the case. It is very clear that you are jealous of LTLs. Jealousy, anger and personal-feelings don't belong in Weapon Balancing, period. It seems you were living under a rock... Gentle reminder that Kempington (which you have a crush on) is the man who was defending the Improved Rifling 3 changes a while back. Those changes were reverted simply because they were too much & poorly thought through... what do you have to say about that? Anyone who takes SPCTs as some sort of Bible should not be listened to.

Precisely, which are superior to Less Than Lethals in EVERY way. The nerf was uncalled for and nobody was able to justify it. The same can be said towards the OCA-buff and RSA-nerf. Nothing about this Weapon Balance patch was remotely proper. Rather than spam the forums with "stupid" and "I am sane", perhaps do what SPCTs couldn't do and actually provide proper justification to the changes? P.S: Your quote also shows that you English-comprehension is not good enough for a forum discussion. But in response to your question: Criminals do not need a weaker-option than what they currently have. The non-LTL arsenal already blows LTL out of the water.

The teamplay argument is as false as abusing corners. Anything would triumph with those, that's how APB is. A coordinated team with lethal weapons would also wreck a coordinated team with LTL. Criminals had and still have better options than the PIG, it was never overpowered nor needed a fix.

Just avoid 1 versus 1s and gang on people, eh? As if those who will now main the buffed-OCA won't gang on people either. Flawed logic

Actually, the FBW gets to shoot twice before the PIG is equipped.. FBW wins this. OCA with cj3 now kills in 0.6. You are 'OCA', you should know what you can do. That's exactly what needs to be fixed here, Percussion Grenades. Imagine failing that much and getting arrested. Up your game. lol, when will you refrain from showing your lack of knowledge?

I am glad you posted this quote. Do you find it difficult to land a Percussion Grenade...? That is another problem with this change. Not only it fails to achieve the claimed-purpose... and not on top of that it failed by not compensating for the indirect-nerfs.. It was also centered around Silvers and Bronzes. Gold players throw grenades perfectly for much longer distances. Some can half-brick up to 100m. Some do it more than that, Kempington managed that on stream as well. Golds would never mess up a Percussion Grenade within 9 meters, which is the field-of-play when using PIG+perc. Hell even Silvers won't, the current radius is still easy to land. This change catered to low-tier players. Weapon Balancing should NEVER be centered on the sub-average level.

False, the idea behind the nerf was to make PIG+perc more difficult, which is not the case at all. And no.. 0.9s is not useful for more players. That is a flat out lie.

Those numbers that you happen to NOT know are ALWAYS relevant when discussing weapon balancing, they define everything. You have shown that are not aware of weapon-stats in numbers, as you have already stated that no lethal weapons kill faster than 0.6 seconds.. That is false and you were told it is false by more than just myself in this thread. I kindly told you to go learn the numbers then come back to discuss things properly. Last chance to do so. If you continue this behavior rather than learn the numbers and actually contribute to the forums, then you are risking complete destruction of your credibility (which you know was crushed already and thus talking like this). You are also risking a timeout from the forums. At the very beginning, you claimed to be "sane". Time to prove it.

Last chance, are you able to speak numbers?

Then you shouldn't be here. You are comparing 0.6s to the old JG-Snub that was doable in 0.1s.. Joke of the Century. Thanks for making it clear that nobody should listen to whatever you type from this day forward.

You were not able to answer with a number in seconds. Your case is closed.

Are you able to state exactly how long that combination takes in seconds?

I see you are still desperate for another stride and further show everyone that you are incapable of comprehending basic weapon-balancing discussions. Let us see here: - You got a lot of people in this very thread quoting your mistakes. Great job. - PIG is a tazer, that is what it does. It is only a problem to those who have a phobia against San Paro Jail. The weapon was like this for years and was never a problem whatsoever. If it was, everyone would simply be Enforcers with PIGs. We would have seen intense shortage in Criminals... Neither was the case, not by a long shot. - Nice slip up, Troll. You know the PIG is now useless with CCG and said it clearly is yourself. #EnglishIs2Hard - The N-HVR nerf is nowhere as bad as this, it is still functional, simply because Secondary→Primary works just fine. Too bad you spent all these hours in-game and still unaware of this. - Thanks for further proving that you are unaware of weapon stats. You really, REALLY can't contribute to weapon balancing.

PIG and those "unconventional tactics" were unreasonable and still required to remotely compete in the game with LTL... Lethal weapons do better without risk... without needing to switch.. without losing loadout slots and some of them don't even require the right-mouse-button. You call PIG a problem yet it isn't at all. People are just angry they messed up and ended up getting arrested, period. LTL is the least problematic thing in the game.

Excellent, then you have no reason to oppose this thread as that is its entire point.

End of discussion? More so welcome to the discussion.. We are in the 4th page of the thread and you still have no clue to what is happening. We are discussing the indirect nerf to the LTL-arsenal, while PIG+perc is still the same as ever. Those wanting to PIG+perc won't exist in this thread as they have not been affected at all. Percussion Grenades range is still stupidly wide and forgiving. I have enough skill and in fact arrested some of the best players that happen to be famous in both NA and EU. I am long ago at Cop Role 15 and Percussion Grenades are actually a mistake in serious matches. I in fact would like for Percs to be nerfed. Clearly you don't want them nerfed because there is a high-chance you resort to them with the other.. incredibly more busted combinations that would in fact render PIG+perc a joke. To further prove that you are completely clueless and a total-troll: the very picture you showed about your total playtime shows that you still have Mobile Cover equipped.. that consumable has been disabled for a good while now.. It seems you don't even have the skill to buy a mod from the Joker Store. Thanks for the jokes

I am sorry, but you are very mistaken.. Consistency is not a problem against PIG as it only goes up to a maximum of 9 meters.. Most PIG users would fight at 5-6 meters.. if you miss at that range, God help you. Even the new JG+Snub is faster as I have shown above. You simply did not read. And no, Kempington's concerns were debunked. I am interested in seeing what he says next.

CSG+PIG has the exact same time-to-stun as ISSR-B+PIG and CCG+PIG (0.6s), so no, nothing here was forgotten. You just said no lethal weapon in the game can kill faster than that combination (0.6s)... which is enough for most people to discredit anything you say from this point onwards.. You keep calling people stupid but the fact that you posted your total play time yet still unaware of this fact tells everything. More of a reason to further say that you are yet to partake in any weapon-balancing discussion. Kindly step away and expand your knowledge rather than make a fool out of yourself.

Thanks for confirming that your knowledge is severely limited and that you don't belong in any weapon-balancing discussion. Play the game some more.

Because only those who fail with the best CQC weapons would want LTL nerfed.