Cheating

[GhosT 1301]

Ah, yes. Cheating in APB is a tough topic, and that is very hard to fight, if not impossible.

 

 

APB being as complex as it is, it is VERY hard to determine if someone is cheating or not, even with video evidence from the perspective of the alleged cheater.

 

Sure, you can go all out and aimbot and wallhack your way through APB, but you could also just play with a radar that shows peoples positions, or a very soft aimbot, or macros.

And that alone gives you a massive advantage over others, and if you know what you're doing, nobody will ever know because it's easily stamped off with something like "teammate called you out", "radar tower mod on a car", "im patrolling all spawns" and many others. There are tons of ways to locate an enemy, and all these can be used as excuses for a radar/wallhack.

 

Same goes to macros - yeah, one can be skilled and tap weapons at their perfect fire rate, but there's also people that can't and just install a macro to do the same thing.

 

There are so many ways to gain advantage over other players, even besides actual cheats.

Let it be a permanent crosshair (which to be honest, should be an ingame option) or manually editing your game files to get the lowest graphics possible to allow easier spotting, or removing animations from the game which causes characters to T-Pose, and they won't properly crouch anymore, or their T-Posing arm will stick out of cover and whatnot.

 

 

 

It's also a tough one to stop any of these, considering how old APB is, and how open its files are compared to modern games, it's relatively easy to manipulate the game.

I don't think any anti cheat software can really help our situation unless the game gets revamped and packed up into encrypted files like modern games.

[yood 345]

Trolls ate G1 / Trolls will eat LO . as long as LO has some money earned , LO buy flowers and wreaths for his FUNERAL . there's nothing more to say. 

 

destroy the GAME and Your company. 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Yood

[NikkiCasinoKnows 44]

(I meant "too" many... oops. There is no edit button? )

 

Anyway I personally do not agree with the "can't tell if someone is cheating, that's just too hard" as good gaming servers have always had administrators online, are you claiming all those guys were wrong to do what they did? That is so weird. Those servers were loved. Still are. Good times. Really.

 

And hey,  if that really would be your end-all bottom-line conclusion, (admin can't be done), really the only way to progress then would be "skill" based matchmaking.

 

Anyway... this is news we need!  <3 Matt

[Keshi 436]

this is one sensitive topic...

[speee 90]

13 hours ago, MattScott said:

6) What is not considered evidence of cheating?

This is the next tricky area.

 

I am often sent videos, screenshots, or other forms of evidence that players feel "undeniably" shows that another player was cheating. And while I sympathize, please know that we cannot blindly accept this as a reason to ban someone.

 

We *must* take the effort to monitor and collect evidence to properly prove they were cheating.

This needs red text or some giant flashing lights surrounding it. Some how people believe they have the perfect anti-cheat with their eyes. Thanks Matt for this write up.

Edited December 18, 2018 by speee

[yood 345]

cheaters in online games have been, are, and will be . each anti-cheat for a ban requires indisputable evidence. it takes time . now the game has a set of anti-cheat . EVERYTHING works as it should be . I don't see the obvious cheaters . 95 % of incoming complaints to the support service is a report on the Pirits

 [image removed -Spuzva]

, Fragers 

 [image removed -Spuzva]

and Trolls 

 [image removed -Spuzva]

. gold players play in the silver, bronze area against silver, bronze .  and gold is 90% pure technical . having a small ping there is no problem the average player getting 20-25 kills in 1 match .

 [image removed -Spuzva]

 

[Westford 167]

@MattScott appreciate the communication and transparency with an issue that plagues all online games, APB not excluded.

It has been apparent in APB for as long as I have played. (2011)

 

Kind of difficult to brush it under the rug, or "add it to the pile", as it were.    

Like, it hasn't been a constant battle/issue for the last 7+ years.  lol, and in any other online game.   APB not excluded.

 

Quotes from fellow forum members that have tried to help alliterative our fears over the last 7 years.

2011 - "I very rarely encounter any cheaters since ....... "
2012 - "I very rarely encounter any cheaters since ....... "

2013 - "I very rarely encounter any cheaters since ....... "

2014 - "I very rarely encounter any cheaters since ....... "

2015 - "I very rarely encounter any cheaters since ....... "

2016 - "I very rarely encounter any cheaters since ....... "

2017 - "I very rarely encounter any cheaters since ....... "

2018 - "I very rarely encounter any cheaters since ....... "

 

 

One can only imagine a "somewhat" clean game with minimal infractions and a decent matchmaking system

so that competitive gameplay was actually a "thing".

 

Would the rate of new player retention increase ?

Would there be more monthly Premium purchases ?

 

Would be nice.

 

Looking forward to future efforts.

 

[MattScott 15242]

11 hours ago, iRawwwN said:

I've seen people blatantly advertising their cheating websites in game for the past few months and they are still not banned. High rank characters who are blatant with triggerbots who probably have tons of reports on them already.

 

How are players that blatant still able to roam districts destroying the fun for others? 

 

How come we don't have active GM's with the ability/tools to deal with these players? Is it that you guys can't figure out easily enough as to what constitutes as cheating? At least with FairFight it supposedly logged all sort of data (example:) time between shots and crosshairs going red which in a way would detect tbotters. If the client-side anti-cheat cannot detect those cheats, and the staff isn't trained well enough to spot it, how will those players get banned?

You've asked a great, very honest question.

I'm sure it's natural for a player to see something happening in-game and wonder "Why aren't they doing something about this?"

 

I don't want this next bit to sound defensive. I'll be the first one to admit that Little Orbit is just not very good at this yet.

 

However I also don't think players realize the sheer volume that we deal with on a daily basis.

APB isn't a very popular game right now, but it still does have its fair share of players.

- We have 3 platforms (PC, XB1, PS4).

- Each platform has 2 worlds (NA and EU) + RU PC

- Each world has a minimum of 10 districts and often more (4 threat levels * 2 action districts + social + FC).

That's 70+ districts. It takes 210 GMs for us to cover those districts for a single day in 8 hour shifts if they work every day of the week.

I'm sure it wont be a surprise to anyone to know that we don't have 210 GMs on staff.

 

In May, there were no tools to help us process the sheer volume of chat logs to search for cheaters / spammers / harassment, etc..

It's like drinking from a fire hose.

 

Now add that in the last 30 days we have also been running 4 concurrent development projects to finish 2FA, /Report, Engine Upgrade, and the new gameplay mode.

All while dealing with 1200+ new incoming customer support tickets a month.

 

10 hours ago, NikkiCasinoKnows said:

Anyway I personally do not agree with the "can't tell if someone is cheating, that's just too hard" as good gaming servers have always had administrators online, are you claiming all those guys were wrong to do what they did? That is so weird. Those servers were loved. Still are. Good times. Really.

 

And hey,  if that really would be your end-all bottom-line conclusion, (admin can't be done), really the only way to progress then would be "skill" based matchmaking.

That is not my conclusion at all.

We don't have any of those odd administrators.

 

In April, Little Orbit had never run an MMO or online multiplayer game.

This month, if I were self evaluating Little Orbit, I'd say we are now mediocre at operating the game.

I do feel like we've learned a hell of a lot, and we're getting better at it.

 

Thanks,

Matt

[Knite 158]

31 minutes ago, MattScott said:

In April, Little Orbit had never run an MMO or online multiplayer game.

This month, if I were self evaluating Little Orbit, I'd say we are now mediocre at operating the game.

I do feel like we've learned a hell of a lot, and we're getting better at it.

Don't sell yourselves short. You are the Macho Man

[yood 345]

53 minutes ago, MattScott said:

You've asked a great, very honest question.

I'm sure it's natural for a player to see something happening in-game and wonder "Why aren't they doing something about this?"

 

I don't want this next bit to sound defensive. I'll be the first one to admit that Little Orbit is just not very good at this yet.

 

However I also don't think players realize the sheer volume that we deal with on a daily basis.

APB isn't a very popular game right now, but it still does have its fair share of players.

- We have 3 platforms (PC, XB1, PS4).

- Each platform has 2 worlds (NA and EU) + RU PC

- Each world has a minimum of 10 districts and often more (4 threat levels * 2 action districts + social + FC).

That's 70+ districts. It takes 210 GMs for us to cover those districts for a single day in 8 hour shifts if they work every day of the week.

I'm sure it wont be a surprise to anyone to know that we don't have 210 GMs on staff.

 

In May, there were no tools to help us process the sheer volume of chat logs to search for cheaters / spammers / harassment, etc..

It's like drinking from a fire hose.

 

Now add that in the last 30 days we have also been running 4 concurrent development projects to finish 2FA, /Report, Engine Upgrade, and the new gameplay mode.

All while dealing with 1200+ new incoming customer support tickets a month.

 

That is not my conclusion at all.

We don't have any of those odd administrators.

 

In April, Little Orbit had never run an MMO or online multiplayer game.

This month, if I were self evaluating Little Orbit, I'd say we are now mediocre at operating the game.

I do feel like we've learned a hell of a lot, and we're getting better at it.

 

Thanks,

Matt

none of your grandmasters can 100% prove the use of cheats unless it is too explicit .they're incompetent . this can only be determined by an automatic system . who constantly collects data . as an example, the system FF .

[Nanometic 265]

57 minutes ago, MattScott said:

...

It's like drinking from a fire hose.

...

I'm sorry but this is all i can imagine.

 

On topic though, I was wondering if LO has a stance on macros and how easy it still is to use them, is this on your radar and have you got any plans to combat this in the future?

[NikkiCasinoKnows 44]

7 hours ago, MattScott said:

You've asked a great, very honest question.

I'm sure it's natural for a player to see something happening in-game and wonder "Why aren't they doing something about this?"

 

I don't want this next bit to sound defensive. I'll be the first one to admit that Little Orbit is just not very good at this yet.

 

However I also don't think players realize the sheer volume that we deal with on a daily basis.

APB isn't a very popular game right now, but it still does have its fair share of players.

- We have 3 platforms (PC, XB1, PS4).

- Each platform has 2 worlds (NA and EU) + RU PC

- Each world has a minimum of 10 districts and often more (4 threat levels * 2 action districts + social + FC).

That's 70+ districts. It takes 210 GMs for us to cover those districts for a single day in 8 hour shifts if they work every day of the week.

I'm sure it wont be a surprise to anyone to know that we don't have 210 GMs on staff.

 

In May, there were no tools to help us process the sheer volume of chat logs to search for cheaters / spammers / harassment, etc..

It's like drinking from a fire hose.

 

Now add that in the last 30 days we have also been running 4 concurrent development projects to finish 2FA, /Report, Engine Upgrade, and the new gameplay mode.

All while dealing with 1200+ new incoming customer support tickets a month.

 

That is not my conclusion at all.

We don't have any of those odd administrators.

 

In April, Little Orbit had never run an MMO or online multiplayer game.

This month, if I were self evaluating Little Orbit, I'd say we are now mediocre at operating the game.

I do feel like we've learned a hell of a lot, and we're getting better at it.

 

Thanks,

Matt

Sorry Matt I might have confused you I was talking towards that GhosT person I should have quoted him, my bad, but still good to hear this answer in addition from you! Appreciated.

 

Merged.

 

^^^^^^^P.s. Only the bottom paragraph is an answer towards me. (Cannot find any edit function )

[Stunny 42]

i wanna know where all these cheaters are? people are talking about it like it's still a big problem and... i'm just not seeing it.

 

in this entire week of playing i've seen maybe one cheater. one. one. singular. uno. so why are people acting like one cheater a week is still the same pandemic (one+ cheaters in every single match) we had before LO & BattleEye?

 

honestly LO i think you're doing fine. just keep tweaking battleeye to catch them faster and maybe train GMs in noticing things like snaps, triggers and tracking through walls and you're on the right track.

 

we had a cheater problem 100%. for 2 years every single match was basically cheater vs cheater. but i'm not seeing it lately, not in months. one cheater per week, i'll happily take that. afk for 10 minutes and never see them again and keep having fun! great!

 

**p.s most of the time when people talk about cheaters, they mean the golds who dethreat to stomp on newbies in bronze. they 'look' like cheaters as they never miss and are pre-made. or they roll a new account just to stomp on newbies for fun. 

 

to stop cheater accusations just ban sock puppets or golds that go to bronze and 'voila' no more "cheater" problem. it's just an illusion

Edited December 19, 2018 by Stunny

[Shui 225]

11 minutes ago, Stunny said:

i wanna know where all these cheaters are? people are talking about it like it's still a big problem and... i'm just not seeing it.

Thats the only way these scrubs can keep their illusion of being good at the game.

[SK4LP 62]

so, you can t filter chatlog with some keyword ??  -_-'     like "http" ...

But, what is done with chatlogs ? are they saved somewhere or u just delet it ?

[cheater 296]

I am sorry but when someone sends in a video of someone blatantly trigger botting and speedhacking and it takes you more than 5 months to ban him, Something is wrong and you have a serious problem with your anti cheats and how you view cheats in this game

Edited December 19, 2018 by cheater

[IROCkiller 210]

11 hours ago, MattScott said:

This month, if I were self evaluating Little Orbit, I'd say we are now mediocre at operating the game.

I'm sorry, but I've got to disagree with you on this one. In days of Reloaded's G1 we would be lucky to get a post from a GM. On the communication front, you guys are lightyears ahead of Reloaded.

 

So far, you've done four events(including Slay Bells). Each one has been pretty good, but did have some flaws. I'd say you're trying, which is more than Reloaded did for the last two years.

 

You started an SPCT team again. I know this is a decision that a lot of people don't agree with, but I think having an SPCT team with open testing districts would help a lot, so some people won't feel like other players get special treatment.

 

I've been around for years, you guys are doing really good.

Edited December 19, 2018 by IROCkiller
From three events to four, forgot the Kill Matt event. Thanks BXNNXD

[Stunny 42]

6 minutes ago, IROCkiller said:

I'm sorry, but I've got to disagree with you on this one. In days of Reloaded's G1 we would be lucky to get a post from a GM. On the communication front, you guys are lightyears ahead of Reloaded.

 

So far, you've done three events(including Slay Bells). Each one has been pretty good, but did have some flaws. I'd say you're trying, which is more than Reloaded did for the last two years.

 

You started an SPCT team again. I know this is a decision that a lot of people don't agree with, but I think having an SPCT team with open testing districts would help a lot, so some people won't feel like other players get special treatment.

 

I've been around for years, you guys are doing really good.

^^^100% this^^^

you're doing great @MattScott and shouldn't be so hard on yourself. as a community we're a handful, we can be annoying and needy and sometimes toxic but not always in a bad way, we're gamers you know there's going to be some boisterousness we have a unique culture here at apb . but underneath that we know you arent just going to swoop in like superman and fix everything and get everything 100% perfect right first time everytime. i quit this game ages ago, i uninstalled it. i only reinstalled it after i saw you took over and i'm still here playing now so that should say something.

 

and as irockiller said we were starved of.. anything, everything. no communication, no events, empty promises. you don't do any of those things, you're actually doing everything right. the things you might think you're getting "wrong" are just speed bumps, the fact that you're engaging, and trying, and communication and more importantly.. taking the small risks to see if something works or not while caring about our culture and not wanting to stomp all over us.. it's nice that you care about current players and what the apb community is as a whole as well as wanting to attract new.

[moxxichixx 148]

Someone hitting 80 kills in Asylum fight club isn't enough proof to ban someone anyway... duh

[vsb 6171]

52 minutes ago, IROCkiller said:

three events(including Slay Bells)

four, the first was the “kill mattscott” event

 

 

seeing as i’ve been on a small break from apb i can’t really speak to current events, but i find it hard to believe we’re anywhere close to pre-orbit levels of cheaters 

 

orbit is making a lot of the right moves and they’re clearly self aware enough to see where they’re lacking, so i’m not overly worried about their handling of “the cheating issue”

[BrandonBranderson 672]

11 hours ago, MattScott said:

In April, Little Orbit had never run an MMO or online multiplayer game.

This month, if I were self evaluating Little Orbit, I'd say we are now mediocre at operating the game.

I do feel like we've learned a hell of a lot, and we're getting better at it.

Believe me Matt, even mediocre is godsend compared to how G1 was running everything and I'm willing to say that you're doing way better than mediocre.  Sure you have little hiccups now and then but all is totally forgivable because you actually fix your mistakes instead of just leaving them to fester and cause more problems later on like G1 did.  Some of us are negative a-holes (non-legit criticism, the "game sucks fix it" kind of people), but I think it's safe to say that most of us are very grateful for every little thing you've done for the game and us so far.  Going from zero communication and progress to what you're doing now is a huge change.  I doubt that even if a more experienced company with a bigger staff picked up this game that they would have given the game the same amount of love you guys have so far in such a short amount of time.

[iRawwwN 282]

12 hours ago, MattScott said:

 

However I also don't think players realize the sheer volume that we deal with on a daily basis.

APB isn't a very popular game right now, but it still does have its fair share of players.

- We have 3 platforms (PC, XB1, PS4).

- Each platform has 2 worlds (NA and EU) + RU PC

- Each world has a minimum of 10 districts and often more (4 threat levels * 2 action districts + social + FC).

That's 70+ districts. It takes 210 GMs for us to cover those districts for a single day in 8 hour shifts if they work every day of the week.

I'm sure it wont be a surprise to anyone to know that we don't have 210 GMs on staff.

 

I'm aware that there are other worlds/servers/platforms, but you don't need to have GM's on a constant basis in each district. You don't need to have GM's doing everything, micromanaging GM's to get them to do random XYZ tasks, such as GM1 joins financial districts on say Jericho for a bit to see how everyone is and if anyone is getting heavily hackusated. You don't need that GM going onto the Xbox/PS4 servers looking for cheaters. GM2 can go into social on Citadel and see if there is any TOS breaking things happening there. 

 

We don't need a constant watch on us, but just someone checking in every once in a while would make things better I feel.

 

Anywho, thanks for the reply, it didn't come off as defensive but I can see where you're coming from.

[TheMessiah 430]

nothing to say besides easyanticheat was the better choice instead of battleye..

[Similarities 226]

On 12/18/2018 at 3:36 AM, Ketog said:

Have you guys thought of using EAC as an anti cheat ? im not gonna lie , i like to lurk cheating forums by curiosity , and i've always noticed that EAC is very efficent at protecting games but once bypassed , it doesn't matter anymore , meanwhile battle eye is known to be easy to bypass , but then will always catch you later .

 

so yeah i've been wondering , what made you guys choose BE rather than other anticheats ?

As someone who has been providing input on the anti-cheat solutions and how to better them over the past months, EAC is no better than BE and vice versa, it all depends on implementation, I've seen them do a lot in the way of anti-cheating measures, not only regarding their own internal methods, but also going as far as hardening the existing implementations.

[Similarities 226]

On 12/18/2018 at 6:13 AM, Yoss said:

This might sound bad but hear me out. Currently the reason cheats are updated and so easy to maintain  is the lack of encryption in memory and the binary itself. There are pubic tools for dumping and creating an sdk of sorts.
 

4

That's actually a half-truth, putting the entire binary in something similar to VMP is a terrible idea, the reasoning being that adding a virtual machine adds overhead. Period. PUBG saw a notable performance decrease when running through a VM due to the nature of VMs, and outside of a VM, you can't really do much to "encrypt" things, you could encrypt pointers, but that's not necessarily hard to figure out, Black Ops has done this for years and it hasn't stopped cheaters, as for the public SDK generator, it's going to break every update because the UObject struct changes every update, a lot of things change every update, but that doesn't stop people from using signature scanning methods, as for linear aimbot detection, it's something I've done in 10 lines in a Source Engine game. It's incredibly simple, but it's something one must have an understanding of to implement properly.

 

EDIT: Please make it easier to merge posts btw, it's incredibly unfriendly toward users currently.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Similarities