Weapon Balance OTW Tweaks - E Testing Values

[Frosi 722]

Just keep Improved Rifling the way it is on Live and balance the weapons that overperform with it. The Fang will not be nerfed because you literally gave it 5 more meters effective range so it is now sitting at 52 meters. Nerf the weapons, not the mod.

I feel like the Improved Rifling change is more of a forced thing aimed to fix issues but without realizing what the issues of some guns are. The reason for this change is that some weapons aren't affected by the downsides of IR, however, those that aren't affected are often considered the most balanced weapons in the game. People will complain that the OSCAR is overpowered while they fail to get a single kill with it. The Oscar rewards good aim with versatility. The OBIR is an insanely consistent support weapon that can also stand its ground by itself, however, this is mainly due to reverse quick switching with an FBW which really is the only thing that could be called overpowered about the OBIR. If you want to nerf the OBIR then add the delay most snipers have that blocks you from switching to your secondary before you're able to fire your next shot. 

The Fang needs a flat out nerf, it's range is too damn high and with this IR change, you made it even harder to balance because you'd have to lower the range by so much that it would leave the non IR version of the RFP useless in comparison. My ideal idea of an RFP nerf would have been a 0,2 to 0,3 increase in ttk (From 1.0 to 1,2/1,3) and 10 meters less range. The reason for this is that the gun can deal 400 damage in one full burst while providing incredible accuracy and fairly decent close range viability. 

Edited August 7, 2018 by Frosi

[foolish ninja 59]

IR reducing fire rate is perfect. It focuses the weapon on long range and reduces its CQB effectiveness. Its perfect
What I would suggest is to reduce it to  4m- 7m- 10m.
The fire rate nerf is okay at 5%-10%-15%.

Off Topic:

A slight buff to cooling jacket would be appreciated
It has more downsides than upsides for lots of weapons.

[Lato 188]

Shotguns don't need any more buffs, stop.

[ExoticZ 131]

Gonna hop on OTW once I get home, thanks for info!

[ok 419]

[vsb 6171]

5 hours ago, Frosi said:

If you want to nerf the OBIR then add the delay most snipers have that blocks you from switching to your secondary before you're able to fire your next shot. 

dear god no

[AgentWatson 85]

5 hours ago, Frosi said:

Just keep Improved Rifling the way it is on Live and balance the weapons that overperform with it. The Fang will not be nerfed because you literally gave it 5 more meters effective range so it is now sitting at 52 meters. Nerf the weapons, not the mod.

I feel like the Improved Rifling change is more of a forced thing aimed to fix issues but without realizing what the issues of some guns are. The reason for this change is that some weapons aren't affected by the downsides of IR, however, those that aren't affected are often considered the most balanced weapons in the game. People will complain that the OSCAR is overpowered while they fail to get a single kill with it. The Oscar rewards good aim with versatility. The OBIR is an insanely consistent support weapon that can also stand its ground by itself, however, this is mainly due to reverse quick switching with an FBW which really is the only thing that could be called overpowered about the OBIR. If you want to nerf the OBIR then add the delay most snipers have that blocks you from switching to your secondary before you're able to fire your next shot. 

The Fang needs a flat out nerf, it's range is too damn high and with this IR change, you made it even harder to balance because you'd have to lower the range by so much that it would leave the non IR version of the RFP useless in comparison. My ideal idea of an RFP nerf would have been a 0,2 to 0,3 increase in ttk (From 1.0 to 1,2/1,3) and 10 meters less range. The reason for this is that the gun can deal 400 damage in one full burst while providing incredible accuracy and fairly decent close range viability. 

Your suggestion seem to be solely focused around Fang and honestly the only thing that I see that should be done to it is removing IR3. You're not making a good enough arguement or suggestion in my opinion to warrant them changing things back to how they were, in-fact we'd just be going back to step 0 and honestly you pointed out something currently in the game that makes the current IR3 an issue. If there are guns that are completely not affected by IR then in my eyes that's probably not an intended feature to have in the game. 

Beastie has stated that the reasons around focusing on positive changes as opposed to negative changes is the negative connotation and stigma related to nerfing weapons in the first place. No one wants to have owned a weapon that is completely nerfed, that's going to spiral out of control and piss off a lot of people. I think the change he has made here is quite significant but it's required because it draws a harsh comparison between weapon mods that may make people alternatively try other mods on their weapon and not simply always go with IR3 for 80% of all scenarios. 

The "issues" are pretty apparent. People are fighting and winning battles at ranges their selected gun isn't meant to excel at. This is the reason for the HVR change, changes to shotgun, IR3. It's to push weapons into a playstyle they were intended for. These changes are still undergoing adjustments and perhaps you'll get more of something you'll prefer, but personally once this test is over I wanna see more people using a variety of mods on their weapon, not just one. 

 

[NotZombieBiscuit 3146]

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[Frosi 722]

58 minutes ago, AgentWatson said:

Your suggestion seem to be solely focused around Fang and honestly the only thing that I see that should be done to it is removing IR3. You're not making a good enough arguement or suggestion in my opinion to warrant them changing things back to how they were, in-fact we'd just be going back to step 0 and honestly you pointed out something currently in the game that makes the current IR3 an issue. If there are guns that are completely not affected by IR then in my eyes that's probably not an intended feature to have in the game. 

5

I never said that IR not affecting some guns is an issue and I doubt that there is a lot of people thinking that it is, hell, one of the most used mods in the game has no downside at all. (3PS3) Not to mention that there are other mods that don't have an effect on certain guns such as Cooling Jacket not having a bonus or downside to burst weapons or not having a downside on snipers such as the Scout / HVR.

And yes I am talking about the Fang primarily because its the only gun that will perform drastically better if you put IR3 on it. It is the most broken secondary in the game right now and was also mentioned as a reason for the IR change. Also, removing IR3 from the Fang is both simply lazy balancing nor will it fix the gun. It'll still have 40 meters effective range with pinpoint accuracy in both Marksman and Hipfire while also providing THE SAME ttk as an FBW.

There aren't many guns that use IR that are in need of a nerf, in fact, I think there are more weapons in need of a buff after the IR change if it ever goes through to the live servers. 

All in all, balancing the weapons itself is less complex than adjusting a mod in such a drastic way. 

  Edited August 7, 2018 by Frosi

[Uqe 17]

shotguns are way too forgiving

[AgentWatson 85]

18 minutes ago, Frosi said:

I never said that IR not affecting some guns is an issue and I doubt that there is a lot of people thinking that it is, hell, one of the most used mods in the game has no downside at all. (3PS3) Not to mention that there are other mods that don't have an effect on certain guns such as Cooling Jacket not having a bonus or downside to burst weapons or not having a downside on snipers such as the Scout / HVR.

And yes I am talking about the Fang primarily because its the only gun that will perform drastically better if you put IR3 on it. It is the most broken secondary in the game right now and was also mentioned as a reason for the IR change. Also, removing IR3 from the Fang is both simply lazy balancing nor will it fix the gun. It'll still have 40 meters effective range with pinpoint accuracy in both Marksman and Hipfire while also providing THE SAME ttk as an FBW.

There aren't many guns that use IR that are in need of a nerf, in fact, I think there are more weapons in need of a buff after the IR change if it ever goes through to the live servers. 

All in all, balancing the weapons itself is less complex than adjusting a mod in such a drastic way. 

 

Huh..? I was bringing it up as an issue. I said you brought up an issue with IR3 which is that with some guns it doesn't affect maximum bloom at all and I find that to be problematic. As to 3PS3 it's inconsequential to balance in most cases because it's only reducing equip time which has really only ever been an issue on the HVR and Rocket launchers in the past because you're getting around a stat which is meant to be consequential for balance on those weapons

Personally I don't find the fact that the FANG has a higher TTK than the FBW to be a good reason to nerf it. The Colby 45 has a higher TTK than the FBW, you could argue it requires more skill but I don't think that one point is good enough to consider nerfing guns. You can call removing IR3 lazy if you want, if it makes a difference and decreases the overall effectiveness of the gun and puts it into a balance state I find that to be an adequate change. 

As for CJ3, perhaps it'll get looked at. This is perhaps one of few of the balance passes. I think you're completely distracted about issues with other mods when I don't think anyone is arguing that CJ3 is in a balanced state either, there are plenty of mods in the game currently which are unbalanced. Even if we're not thinking about weapon mods I can think of plenty of character mods that will perhaps need to be looked at. 

[Nat1on 2]

From what I’ve tested so far:
Anubis feels better, even with cj3. definitely an improvement;
IR changes are way healthier than ppl think, mainly ‘cause it is so much easier to control bloom;
Ursus and cobra are REALLY strong with the new IR3;
Didnt notice much of a difference with OBIR at all;
Idk about csg, its not even weak on live, but way stronger on OTW. Kind of a needless buff;

Also, while you’re doing weapon pass and stuff, a nice FeelsGood change would be adding a tiny (10-15 points) assist to a kill marked with flaregun/firework launcher. It would definitely give some love and attention to otherwise overlooked and underappeciated secondary without actually changing it.
 

[UltraMES187 19]

15m csg 2 shot range is way too much I think because shotguns are meant to be for very close range. I think 8m would be way better..over 8m till like 15 make it 3 shot. They are already super forgiving with the pellet change...this long range would make them op and turn citadel back into a csg fest :(

[Landsfaderen 12]

People seem to forget that the shotguns greatest strength is their extreme mobility and ability to corner-pop.
It suffers form the same faults that the HVR currently does, in that it is able to deal massive amounts of damage without having to leave cover for longer than the time it takes to press a single mouse click.  An unfortunate consequence of this games very bare bones movement system.
You can already dominate in CQC with them, as long as you know how to use the environment to your advantage. If you are going to give it more range, and a greater ability to two-hit, you need to do something about corner-popping as well.

If you're are going make it more effective at a longer range, I suggest doing to it some of what you did to the HVR. Make people less mobile with it. Make aiming preferable, in order to slow you down and fix corner-popping. Increase the size of the hip-fire reticle and time it takes for it to zoom back in when aiming. Make it so firing while sprinting or jumping does less damage, or is less accurate. You could add this effect for which ever shotgun you see fit as more of a mid range weapon, and leave corner-popping for a shotgun with a shorter range.

Edited August 7, 2018 by Landsfaderen
Added a suggestion

[SuperToaster 78]

52 minutes ago, UltraMES187 said:

15m csg 2 shot range is way too much I think because shotguns are meant to be for very close range. I think 8m would be way better..over 8m till like 15 make it 3 shot. They are already super forgiving with the pellet change...this long range would make them op and turn citadel back into a csg fest

This is what I suggested with a friend. 8-10m is a lot better than 15m. Being able to 2 shot people at 15m is ridiculous considering how fast you can shoot it and with its perfect spread

Also I like the tag assist idea with the firework launcher if that’s possible to do  Edited August 7, 2018 by SuperToaster

[Keshi 436]

16 minutes ago, Landsfaderen said:

People seem to forget that the shotguns greatest strength is their extreme mobility and ability to corner-pop. An unfortunate side effect of this games outdated movement system.
It suffers form the same faults that the HVR currently does, in that it is able to deal massive amounts of damage without having to leave cover for longer than the time it takes to press a single mouse click.
You can already dominate in CQC with them, as long as you know how to use the environment to your advantage. If you are going to give it more range, and a greater ability to two-hit, you need to do something about corner-popping as well.

If you're are going to give it more range, I suggest doing to it some of what you did to the HVR. Make people less mobile with it. Make aiming preferable, in order to slow you down and fix corner-popping. Increase the size og the hip-fire reicle and time it takes for it to zoom back in when aiming. Make it so firing while sprinting or jumping does less damage, or is less accurate. You could add this effect for which ever shotgun you see fit as a more mid range shotgun. and leave corner-popping for a shotgun with a shorter range.

honestly the only thing shotguns need right now are better hitreg...most of the time u can fullshot someone more than 1 time and u end up getting a +50 assist

[YeOldLegends 51]

Welp looks like its time to buy the shredder. Range buffed from 20 to 25m. Fire rate increased. Well Well Well. What do we have here? The next broken shotgun.

[KERNIE 87]

buff ntec 

[Nite 261]

Really glad that we have Weapon Mods to test with. Thanks for that.

Holy shit the Oblivion. The base weapon was already much improved with the A stats, combining the latest changes with a decent mod setup (HS3,CJ3 specifically) makes it superbly fast firing while being fully accurate on every shot. Fun to use, but I'm conflicted on whether it needed this much of a buff.

[Kewlin 692]

The Anubis crosshair is much better than your first test version, but I have a few notes and questions:
   1. I kinda' liked the old red center dot. . . I know you were planning on doing some stuff with crosshair customization and color-blind stuff in the future, is it possible I'll be able to customize the center-dot to red in the future?
   2. I agree with a previous user that the center dot should change colors with the rest of the crosshair, is that possible?
   3. I liked the old 4-directional version of the Anubis sight, and I have a few suggestions regarding that. Would you consider either of the following:
      A] Create a second version of the NCR 'Anubis' called the NCR 'Osiris', which either has the old sight or a 4-direction sight version of the new one. You could make it work like the OCSP 'Kommandant' where you can select which one you want when you win.
      B] Put either the old sight or a 4-direction version of the new sight (or both) on the Joker Store for permanent purchase for a high price. In addition, potentially add an NCR without a sight mod as a loyalty reward or something.
      C] In the future allow for a system to change between the reticles. This should also come with the option to choose between the normal and Strife crosshair on all shotguns.

If you could give any answers on those things it'd be greatly appreciated. 


As for other things, I don't hate the idea of the IR3 changes, but I'm a little afraid it will indirectly make Rifles even worse and the N-TEC encroach on their niche even more. Hopefully it will work out fine in the end though.

The CSG changes are a step in the right direction, but I'm a little scared that with the CSG having range and reliability it will still simply be better than the JG. Have you considered lowering the pellet count on the CSG? 21 is a lot TBH.


And I have two more notes that aren't. . . quite directly related to this test, but closely enough:

Are you aware that the Scoped N-TEC and its variants go messed up in 2015? Previously, the Scoped N-TEC was a variant of the N-TEC with a worse Walk Modifier but 5m added to its Min Damage Range, however when the range of all assault rifles were changed to curves the Scoped N-TEC got its curve replaced with the AssaultRifle_EffectiveRange curve instead of the AssaultRifle-Scoped_EffectiveRange curve that had the gun's old range.

*EDIT 1* Forgot to put my second note, it will be up shortly.

*EDIT 2* Second, have you considered opening the non-red slots on the LCR? I understand that you need to prevent CJ3 on the gun, but why not let people play with the other mod slots? This shouldn't be very hard, and it would make the gun a lot more fun IMO.

Edited August 7, 2018 by Kewlin

[Keshi 436]

havn't use the scoped ntec in so long i forgot about them @Kewlin
Thank you for bringing that one up

[holyTyu 10]

While i think that changes to IR are pretty healthy for the game in general, I want to talk about ATAC "Patroller".

It is a preslotted version with IR3. I don't think ATAC was intended as a precision weapon. Usually you spray with it and at the moment IR3 just gives a small benefit of doing tap/burst fires at long ranges. I think the change to IR3 makes this version of ATAC really awkward to use.

I think there should be a change to mods this version comes with, if we are sticking to new IR mod.

P.S. i was thinking about buying KTTW pack, and ATAC "Patroller" is included in it. Don't think I want to buy a pack with a weapon I won't use.

[yourrandomnobody74 106]

My take on this testing:
CSG definitely needs some range nerf, too strong.
JG is gonna wreck in CQC, especially with CJ3
COBR-A is actually a viable gun now.
Guns that are mostly played with IR3 vary quite a bit. For example, the NSSW with IR3 can literally be sprayed hard at range, while tapped without. OBIR barely receives a fire rate penalty. Carbine is also very slightly affected, the OSCAR is also slightly affected (and I actually mean slightly). Obeya & NTEC got hit hard (not that theyre unplayable, people will just avoid using the mod tbh) with the IR3 changes. COBR-A 'seemed' stronger as well with IR3, didnt test this one properly though. I don't know what to say about these radical changes. I'm very neutral. On one side, they make some guns perform better some worse. I do think that tackling mods right now shouldn't be necessary. 
What I'd like to see:
-Removing the unecessary delay added on the Scout & OBIR that were added with the sprintshooting fix (Beastie confirmed they'll try tackling this)
-Reverting the old Ursus and Scoped NTEC changes (to actually make them good again)
-Reverting the unecessary OCA buff (its a laser right now)
-Lowering HVR damage to <750
Sadly, we won't see jumpshooting again, got confirmation on this as well.
 

[Senodus 49]

Ntec with this ir3 is BROKEN
https://clips.twitch.tv/SmoothCoweringArtichokeDxCat
I think the -9/-15/-21% fire rate/burst interval reduction with the +3/+5/+7m range increase was perfect. At least make it +3/+5/+7m with -5/-10/-15%. Ir3 deasn't need any more range increase than +7m.

[notHunky 32]

I know I was saying earlier the sudden damage falloff on the shredder seemed a bit punishing, but the new shotgun changes on top of the improved rifling changes seem a bit excessive, ESPECIALLY THE CSG. Good lord 15 meters base effective range with improved rifling increasing it by 12 meters? Am I going to get killed in 2-3 shots from nearly 30 meters now?!

I'm going to test this now and see how practical shotguns are.
Also my main gripe with the shredder was with the bad hipfire accuracy, but a fire rate increase sounds good instead I guess.