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VladimirChekhov

Why are you nerfing the NTEC?

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3 hours ago, RespectThis said:

The Ntec is good at mid range yes. CQC? No not really. Within 15 or even 20m you have to worry about OCA, PMG, Aces, Manic, Nfas, CSG, etc. Good at cqc isn't holding down left click and body checking someone.

 

What spray weapon are you suggesting you use? Hopefully you aren't going to say the ntec because its not a spray weapon. If your response is Nfas, Oca, or shaw. All of those can easily counter the ntec as well.

no one is saying the ntec is better than weapons that specialize in cqc, but for an AR it is a bit too good in cqc considering the only real down side of the ntec are sniper ranges.

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17 hours ago, RespectThis said:

The Ntec is good at mid range yes. CQC? No not really. Within 15 or even 20m you have to worry about OCA, PMG, Aces, Manic, Nfas, CSG, etc. Good at cqc isn't holding down left click and body checking someone.

 

What spray weapon are you suggesting you use? Hopefully you aren't going to say the ntec because its not a spray weapon. If your response is Nfas, Oca, or shaw. All of those can easily counter the ntec as well.

I actually don't worry about cqc weapons while running ntec, unless i'm going to be running face first into an nfas or corner popping shotgun sub 5m that I havn't prenaded. But I also tend to play in a manner that directly benefits the weapon I use, sooooooo. (and nfas has a lower ttk, and corner popping directly prevents most damage from being done against the shotgun being done)

 

Counter? Lol OCA doesn't really counter NTEC, no NTEC is directly hard countered by an OCA. Using an OCA does level the field against an oscar because ease and strafing capabilities along with lower ttk. Is it fairly effective against ntec at like 10-15m well duh, but the ntec does almost just as well regardless of the oca's existance.

 

NFAS is restricted to like sub 7m to "counter" NTEC, which makes it really sub-par in most engagements against the NTEC for the other like 40-47m of the NTEC's range, and the nfas is only useful against oscar in the same "range" so its not great.

 

SHAW makes you a literal sitting duck, and easily taken out, its useful against the oscar but I wouldn't say its very great because a good oscar can easily manage corners enough to not worry about a shaw much.

 

S1NA is the better option, but that's also because it has a faster ttk, similar range as the oca, and good accuracy.

Edited by Noob_Guardian
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On 10/6/2019 at 3:44 AM, Noob_Guardian said:

You do realized that the random burst bloom is a side effect of incorrectly firing at a consistent rate right and firing too fast, outside of the bloom modifier's recovery causing it to bloom?

I don't think it really matters what the random bloom is caused by; it shouldn't exist in the first place. It's not a mechanic any player would expect from the gun and it was better off without it. It was a terrible addition in an attempt to fix the N-Tec.

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3 hours ago, Revoluzzer said:

I don't think it really matters what the random bloom is caused by; it shouldn't exist in the first place. It's not a mechanic any player would expect from the gun and it was better off without it. It was a terrible addition in an attempt to fix the N-Tec.

you're right, they should have just fixed the ntec correctly the first time, instead of attempting to psuedo fix it.

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On 10/9/2019 at 5:32 PM, Noob_Guardian said:

I actually don't worry about cqc weapons while running ntec, unless i'm going to be running face first into an nfas or corner popping shotgun sub 5m that I havn't prenaded. But I also tend to play in a manner that directly benefits the weapon I use, sooooooo. (and nfas has a lower ttk, and corner popping directly prevents most damage from being done against the shotgun being done)

 

Counter? Lol OCA doesn't really counter NTEC, no NTEC is directly hard countered by an OCA. Using an OCA does level the field against an oscar because ease and strafing capabilities along with lower ttk. Is it fairly effective against ntec at like 10-15m well duh, but the ntec does almost just as well regardless of the oca's existance.

 

NFAS is restricted to like sub 7m to "counter" NTEC, which makes it really sub-par in most engagements against the NTEC for the other like 40-47m of the NTEC's range, and the nfas is only useful against oscar in the same "range" so its not great.

 

SHAW makes you a literal sitting duck, and easily taken out, its useful against the oscar but I wouldn't say its very great because a good oscar can easily manage corners enough to not worry about a shaw much.

 

S1NA is the better option, but that's also because it has a faster ttk, similar range as the oca, and good accuracy.

Not so much a matter of your own feelings of not worrying about cqc (which i find quite unbelievable). If the OCA is a hard counter to the ntec then why are so many people complaining about its cqc capabilities. Its press, hold, and body check people for most cqc kills. The Nfas is just as much a counter to the ntec as the oca is. Its a quick ttk that can catch you by surprise. Just because its limited to 7m doesn't make it any worse. The shaw makes you a sitting duck? Thats strange because last i checked the shaw is just as good as ntec in terms of kill potential. Plenty of people have proved it time and time again. Abduct for example used shaw for the longest time. It doesn't make you a sitting duck at all.

 

22 hours ago, Revoluzzer said:

I don't think it really matters what the random bloom is caused by; it shouldn't exist in the first place. It's not a mechanic any player would expect from the gun and it was better off without it. It was a terrible addition in an attempt to fix the N-Tec.

Don't usually agree with you but im glad someone else feels the same way about this. Like i said in an early post, adding these mechanics on the guns is not needed. Why changed the mechanics on the guns 7 years into its life span. Especially on base weapons (Ntec and hvr).

 

Edited by RespectThis

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18 hours ago, RespectThis said:

Not so much a matter of your own feelings of not worrying about cqc (which i find quite unbelievable). If the OCA is a hard counter to the ntec then why are so many people complaining about its cqc capabilities. Its press, hold, and body check people for most cqc kills. The Nfas is just as much a counter to the ntec as the oca is. Its a quick ttk that can catch you by surprise. Just because its limited to 7m doesn't make it any worse. The shaw makes you a sitting duck? Thats strange because last i checked the shaw is just as good as ntec in terms of kill potential. Plenty of people have proved it time and time again. Abduct for example used shaw for the longest time. It doesn't make you a sitting duck at all.

 

A hard counter completely prevents you from being able to use the gun. No OCA doesn't do that to ntec. Oca users barely bother me when using ntec. That's probably not the same as others, however my playstyle is more of a reactive "hide behind cover and ambush the defender" rather than "push in and get ambushed" type style. Which is likely why the oca doesn't bother me (I don't try to run facefirst into other players).

 

NFAS counters almost everything in cqc due to its stupid amount of strength atm. But saying that the OCA is just as strong as one is sub10m is lol.

 

Shaw does make you a sitting duck. That does not prevent its kill potential at times, however it makes it extremely weak in several key situations and more difficult to use against the players who know how to play around the shaw's weaknesses (mobility IS one of them). "kill potential" =/= mobility, I don't quite understand why you think they are the same thing. I've gotten rank 15 LMG primarily from the shaw, and a little bit of the AMG. I prefer AMG simply because you have more mobility with it.

 

(btw all my roles are 15 except rifleman which is max so I do actually know a few things about weapon handling and weaknesses lol it's why I change gameplay styles depending on the gun I use)

Edited by Noob_Guardian
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On 10/11/2019 at 6:30 PM, Revoluzzer said:

I don't think it really matters what the random bloom is caused by; it shouldn't exist in the first place. It's not a mechanic any player would expect from the gun and it was better off without it. It was a terrible addition in an attempt to fix the N-Tec.

They also added it to the FAR which made no sense.

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I think the majority agrees that we do not want random factors like rng bloom in the game.

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21 minutes ago, TheJellyGoo said:

I think the majority agrees that we do not want random factors like rng bloom in the game.

I think most of us despise bloom period.

I'd rather a game where I aim at enemies. In APB you just bloom at them, and often enough RNG decides who wins and who loses.

Its quite frustrating at times.

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34 minutes ago, CookiePuss said:

I think most of us despise bloom period.

I'd rather a game where I aim at enemies. In APB you just bloom at them, and often enough RNG decides who wins and who loses.

Its quite frustrating at times.

Bloom is a perfectly fine mechanic to limit a weapon's effective range. If the bloom affects your ability to hit an opponent reliably it means you are outside your weapon's effective range. If the bloom affects your ability to kill an opponent quickly enough it means you are outside your weapon's effective range.

In combination with all other mechanics that are used in APB (and other shooters, of course) it also enables a much larger variety in weapons.

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On 10/5/2019 at 4:12 PM, Revoluzzer said:

Alright, let's go with the OBIR stuff first. I agree it's a powerful rifle. 990 health damage in two bursts can be pretty problematic. However they're not guaranteed, since you still need to actually land 6 shots.

Can it do a lot? Yes-ish. It's of course great at long range, which it should be. It's okay at mid-range due to burst fire (corner-popping). It does more than tickle at sniper range. But below mid range you flat out need to be better than your opponent to beat them (this includes the use of "reverse" quick-switching). The N-Tec could kill you faster in CQC - purely on a technical level - than it takes to pull out most secondaries and fire them often enough to get a kill. And before that you still need to fire and hit an entire OBIR burst.

 

The OBIR is harder to use than the N-Tec and still won't give you an edge over an equally skilled opponent anywhere from close to mid range. There is certainly no "enlightenment" when it comes to the power of the OBIR. It's simply a decent weapon within its niche.

 -It does give you a significant advantage, as it brings out the strongest aspect of gunplay in this game, corners. OBIR is a de-factor Corner popping weapon, it is by design (either intentionally or not) 1 of the strongest weapons in the game when you have a solid corner, and even without a corner, your burst potential will damage an ntec user so hard, that even if he wins, he will still be 85.

On 10/5/2019 at 4:12 PM, Revoluzzer said:


 

Balancing the N-Tec is not the be-all end-all, mind you. It's just a fix to one of the most egregious balancing issues. It will probably uncover more issues, albeit minor ones. People say now the Obeya might become the new "meta"? Entirely possible. Then that needs looking at. Others say people will instead switch to [insert a load of different weapons here]? That sounds like a more healthy overall balance to me.

 

The general goal should be that more different weapons get used and players switch weapons depending on their environment. It's entirely common to see a whole team on a mission use only N-Tecs. Or N-Tecs and N-HVRs. It's just as common to see the top 6 players of each faction in Fight Club to use only N-Tecs. Or N-Tecs and N-HVRs. That's not good balance, that points to a major flaw. 

- The problem with those top players is that just like in missions, they go for what is easiest, like the PMG in abington, rather then actually using what's best. they'd get more or less the same results with a FAR, the difference? FAR is a much less accessible weapon due to it being a event, armas and joker store weapon. It should be a regular stock gun, just like the NTEC. Secondly the Misery with CJ3 is stronger then the NTEC, as with the massive buffs it received, you can literally 4 shot people without pausing, and make them 85, then wait around 0.05 secs and shot again, and they are dead. It isn't used as often, because it is much harder to use. And what you just mentioned proved my point, the ntec is simply a tool for its environment, add more cover, cars and better attack spots around the action districts and the NTEC would not be as dominant.

On 10/5/2019 at 4:12 PM, Revoluzzer said:

 

 

Now you look at all the weapons and say the N-Tec is the gold standard for weapon balance. And this might be a valid argument if all other weapons were utter trash and did not even perform well at their one, dedicated role. But on the one hand this isn't the case. Most weapons excel in their niche and only there - which is what they should do. Unlike the N-Tec, which not only excels at mid-range, but also does well at close and long range. Then on the other hand you need to be aware of gameplay design as a whole. There is a reason most pointman weapons gravitated towards a 0.70s TTK, while assault rifles targeted 0.75s. This creates a hard, technical limitation at which range assault rifles can not mechanically beat pointman weapons below a certain range. Of course random factors do play into this, but the favour always lends towards the pointman class.

That's also why the rifleman class hovered around 1.00s and snipers around 1.75s. It simply means below a certain range these weapons need to rely on luck or the player being flat out better than the opponent. Why is all of this important? Here it comes:

If you balance everything around the N-Tec, you need to buff a lot of weapons. A lot. And this will come with a plethora of issues.

First, we are already aware that the N-Tec does a lot of things very well. In order to compete with that, other weapons need to do a lot of things very well. At which point you might still be able to have them handle a little different, but overall it doesn't matter all that much which weapon you actually use. They will all do well. I like to call this "The Call of Duty Problem"; all guns play more or less the same.

-The ntec doesn't excel at long range, it simply can do the job decently well, if it excelled then any scrub would be able to dominate competent long range weapon users. it is a made up fallacy that the NTEC is this "be all end all weapon" for everything and anything. 

On 10/5/2019 at 4:12 PM, Revoluzzer said:

Second, we are now also aware that weapon balance does not only concern weapons, but gameplay as a whole. If you need to buff a lot of weapons to get them on the same level as the N-Tec you will bring down the average TTK. Since the game world already struggles with the current average (i.e. oftentimes running from one corner to another is almost certain death), a lower average would be even worse (i.e. running from one corner to another is now certain death). I don't have a good name for this, but I like to compare it to "hardcore mode" in most games. It's hardly fun to die really quick (as far as I'm concerned), but its even worse when you have such long respawn and return times (i.e. getting back in combat) as in APB. In CoD "hardcore mode" kind of works, because you will spawn right back in combat anyway.

Third, we are certainly also aware that buffing a lot of weapons is a lot of work, with room for a lot of error. So not only will you make the game worse as a whole, you will also open yourself up to creating even bigger issues while you are at it.

Bringing down the TTK isn't true at all, you can bring down the effective TTK, not the literal TTK. By reducing RNG. The issue that plagues this game the most is its inconsistency, I would rather have longer TTK's, but TTK's that are much more reliable. Secondly, if you are that tagged so often, you need to take more cover and not be as aggressive, if I am able to pull Killstreak 2's out of my patootie in abington with almost any gun extremely often, then it is much more up to the driver, not the car. Secondly, it's a fallacy that you need to buff a lot of guns, as a lot of guns already beat the NTEC in their niches. Even if you disgard their niches, they'll only lose to an NTEC in the NTEC's territory (jack of all trades), and those guns that need buffs against the NTEC specifically, are far and few inbetween and the buffs they need are tiny, and frankly, they shouldn't even be buffed to specifically fight the NTEC, they could just be slighlty buffed outside their niches, which sure, would make them more like "every other gun", however the magic in numbers is that, tiny differences in said numbers can make massive differences. The SWARM is more or less the strongest midrange LMG WHEN you have a corner and defensive opportunities. But it can still do "fine" outside of it's niche. And frankly, this whole "the ntec kills everything" has been blown out of proportions, as true, no gun in the game is as good at being a jack of all trades, but just like that, the NTEC will NEVER win against a competent player that uses a proper "counter", SWARM behind cover, OBIR with QS-ing and popping, NSSW at 30m+ OCA, PMG, CSG, JG etc at 10 -15 M. The ntec shines at it nice 15 - 30 M niche, outside of that it will, mathematically lose towards other more suited weapons. That those weapons are to niche is a fallacy, as they are perfectly able to fight other weapons outside of their intended roles.

On 10/5/2019 at 4:12 PM, Revoluzzer said:

 

Fight Club is not representative, because you will usually be low on health yourself or encounter enemies who are low on health. Furthermore you will usually encounter a large group of opponents or be supported by a large group of allies.

 

The game is very much supposed to provide team-oriented, objective-based gameplay in varying environments. As such weapon balance needs to support this kind of gameplay, while Fight Club is merely an offshoot where all bets are off.

Sure you can use it for additional data once you feel comfortable with the results you get from Action Districts. That's like taking a street car on the race track for additional data. But it shouldn't be your focus at all.

FC represents the pinnacle of individual skill, it has a direct correlation towards personal performance in missions, not team-based performance mind you, but personal, and all bets are far from off, if they were, there would not be a meta at all, and everyone would just jerk off and use all kinds of weapons over and over.

 

This is frankly my last post on this subject, work started 1 month ago hence why I replied to late, as I could not be asked to do it. I will only respond to this as this one last time, because frankly, now money is on my mind, and the balance of this crap game isn't super important anymore.

On 10/5/2019 at 4:12 PM, Revoluzzer said:

 

 

I do agree that the entire test district situation is less than ideal, though. A more hands on approach in the live environment (i.e. small changes every few days) would probably work better.

 

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11 hours ago, Tenginima said:

FAR is a much less accessible weapon due to it being a event, armas and joker store weapon. It should be a regular stock gun, just like the NTEC.

Agree, It's a decent AR that can compete NTEC. In CQC it destroys NTEC due to less RNG and less maximum bloom size while spraying it. 

 

11 hours ago, Tenginima said:

the NTEC will NEVER win against a competent player that uses a proper "counter", SWARM behind cover, OBIR with QS-ing and popping, NSSW at 30m+ OCA, PMG, CSG, JG etc at 10 -15 M. The ntec shines at it nice 15 - 30 M niche, outside of that it will, mathematically lose towards other more suited weapons.

You're forgetting that NTEC can do all the same things as the guns you mentioned. You can play at the corner, If you hit first 3 shots that basically have maximum accuracy, you're about to minttk every cqc weapon. OBIR is less forgivable in that case because if you miss one burst, your opponent if he's decent, will catch that opportunity and come after you to the corner. Of course I'm not talking about distance like 20m because you will have enough time to shoot another burst but if you and your opponet fighting each other in ~10m and you miss one burst, you're dead if you don't minttk him with your 2ndary when he pushed you. 

 

About FC, I play asylum a lot as you and I figured out that NTEC is the best weapon to farm a lot of kills while staying alive. The best k/d I had in asylum was with ntec and I don't even main it here because I mostly play with OCA/Carbine or PMG.

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still curious what will happen to ntec now and when will it be nerfed?

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Guys, let them destroy the game as they please. The more people playing apb the sooner will die and another company will revive it.

 

It doesnt matter how much time you spent or how you explain things to prevent disasters, theyll do what they want anyways.

There are better things to spend your life energy.

 

The only thing i am sure is that they dont deserve this beautiful game.

Edited by Azhwrayth

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4 hours ago, Azhwrayth said:

There are better things to spend your life energy.

This is true, but people for some reason don't realize this.

 

4 hours ago, Azhwrayth said:

[Little Orbit] doesn't deserve this beautiful game.

This however, is not true. LO is doing a way better job that G1 with the game, but has a lot to learn still. I think that the game will die eventually, but LO acquiring it will extend its lifetime by a couple more years at worst. So, they infact do deserve this game, but we can't be blind to the fact that another company could've handled it better than them...and that's OK.

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it's okay if they ever nerf the ntec, the top players will move on and then the community will cry that they're dying too fast cause of a gun(not because they're bad ofc that could never happen)

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4 hours ago, February said:

it's okay if they ever nerf the ntec, the top players will move on and then the community will cry that they're dying too fast cause of a gun(not because they're bad ofc that could never happen)

Let's completely ignore every valid point that has been presented over the last eight pages as to why the nerf is reasonable and bring up the same foolish mock since post 1

chapeau!

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17 hours ago, Goldtiger said:

This is true, but people for some reason don't realize this.

 

This however, is not true. LO is doing a way better job that G1 with the game, but has a lot to learn still. I think that the game will die eventually, but LO acquiring it will extend its lifetime by a couple more years at worst. So, they infact do deserve this game, but we can't be blind to the fact that another company could've handled it better than them...and that's OK.

You are free to disagree but not call me a lier.

 

I could play pre lo and couldnt after they arrived. Also their updates and balances are the crapiest, game destroying level.

Plus i lost a lot of clean effort i did over my years with them.

I wont forget that damage.

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On 9/22/2019 at 10:26 AM, Flaws said:

 If you lose to an N-TEC where you shouldn't, that's your fault, not the weapon balancing's.

^^ if you believe other than this, idk what to say

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10 hours ago, February said:

^^ if you believe other than this, idk what to say

so if someone is jumpshooting with ntec and hits you with every single bullet bc of it's broken, it's your fault? with a JG i can understand that but please try that with any other AR in the game and you will not be that successful

but apparently i'm to dumb to use other guns, even tho that jumpshooting with ntec is very easy

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14 hours ago, February said:

^^ if you believe other than this, idk what to say

You could apologize for being wrong. 

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3 hours ago, Kakalaki said:

so if someone is jumpshooting with ntec and hits you with every single bullet bc of it's broken, it's your fault? with a JG i can understand that but please try that with any other AR in the game and you will not be that successful

but apparently i'm to dumb to use other guns, even tho that jumpshooting with ntec is very easy

Tbh, FAR is more accurate in jumpshooting

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On 11/20/2019 at 6:24 PM, Azhwrayth said:

You are free to disagree but not call me a lier.

 

I could play pre lo and couldnt after they arrived. Also their updates and balances are the crapiest, game destroying level.

Plus i lost a lot of clean effort i did over my years with them.

I wont forget that damage.

You were there for what? #.2-.3 and #.8-#.9 patches in 2013-14 right? Legit made the game run waaaay worse under G1 and never really got fixed.

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