Fully reverting IR changes.. and why we tried them in the first place

[Visionaireh 15]

Yes! Really awesome to hear!!

[ZoriaDunne 327]

22 hours ago, MattScott said:

Hi all,

 

Just like the title says, I've made the decision to revert the IR3 downside changes with the Halloween patch.

 

For the record, I still feel like the IR3 changes were better -- in most cases.

 

I still feel like the original IR3 implementation ends up with little to no downside. The mod uses set values and not percentages, so players can use that mod to force weapons out of their intended category by extending their range. Changing the mod to be percentage based allowed us to scale the upside/downsides properly.

 

However, "most cases" isn't good enough. Since the changes went live, the design team and I have been trying to solve IR3 on pre-modded Legendaries that players paid for. We toyed with a bunch of scenarios, but all of them create more complexity / variations of the same mod and muddy up understanding how the game works.

Hindsight is 20/20. We should have immediately reverted this months ago when players raised the various issues, and then gone back to the drawing board. Instead, each week it appeared like we had a new solution, so I let the changes stand while we explored each new implementation.

 

My apologies to all the players who were affected.

We'll do better in the future.

 

Thanks,
Matt

Can we get a rework on Green player mods?
Make Kevlar reduce damage instead of the 30% extra HP

[Nickolai 206]

I think its time to throw in my solution into the pot here.

 

Instead of having 1 UNIVERSAL MODE WITH 3 stages that have god knows what effect on some weapons why not consider this:

 

Have specific weapon CLASS mods for example: OCA Mag 1, OCA Mag 2 and OCA Mag 3

 

This way you can fine tune the mods for each specific weapon without breaking the other ones.

 

And because you will have a lot more mods to buy, their prices will be something like 5000$, 10000$ and 15000$ depending on what level.

 

I feel like this could have been suggested before and if so why it was never looked at is beyond me.

[Revoluzzer 274]

On 10/20/2018 at 8:09 AM, Haganu said:

Original QS was from shotgun to SNR 850, because back then shotguns like CSG dealt enough damage for SNR 850 to be a quick finisher secondary.

Reverse quickswitching is from Primary to Secondary, when HVR QS came to the light.

Ackchually

Original quickswitch was from HVR to pistol when there was no restriction for switching to your secondary after firing the HVR.

Edited October 21, 2018 by Revoluzzer

[mojical 159]

On 10/20/2018 at 6:12 AM, Kewlin said:

Given the fact that that the Scoped N-TEC only has increased min damage range, not dropoff range, and the increase is only 5m, I think you're over exaggerating a little by saying it's "more like a rifle." The N-TEC 5 only has 110 overdamage, so it only needs to lose ~18.5 damage per shot, or about 10% of its damage to go down to 7 STK. Given the graph below of the standard assault rifle dropoff provided in this post by Beastie, we can see that the normal N-TEC goes down to 7 STK about 5m after its dropoff starts, and since we get an increase in range from 50/70 to 50/75, or an increase in the dropoff interpolation distance from 20m to 25m, that's a 25% increase in the length of the dropoff interpolation, which means the Scoped N-TEC will have a 25% increase in range after dropoff before it goes down to 7 STK, for a total post-dropoff distance of 6.25m to get to 7 STK, but I have a suspicion range is rounded, so that's 6m.

It's true that as far as 6 shots are concerned, the difference isn't very big. The Scoped does have other perks though, The reduced recoil and increased zoom are helpful for 16:9 players, and for the most part I just whip out my secondary (such as a .45) in CQC which allows for better mobility than any N-Tec will give. Not to mention that at certain range intervals above those 55m the Scoped will need one less bullet. I've just adapted to the walk modifier thing which in turn has taught me to use cover more effectively when playing the Scoped N-Tec.

 

Of course it's not going to be the ubiquitous meta weapon that the regular N-Tec has been for so long though, unless that proposed OTW change of setting "standard" ARs back to 45m dropoff start range comes to fruition. 

 

What's also interesting is that the Carbine does have a 6 STK range of 40m (Heavy Barrel aside) which is a lot higher than the 35m where the drop off starts. I have the suspicion that carbines also use the "Rifles" curve on Beastie's post, even though back when curves were introduced, they were said to work differently. They have very little drop off which was compensated by them starting to lose damage at what's basically SMG range. Now after IR3's downside is reverted, we'll have 49m carbines and potentially even longer range OSCARs which might actually lower N-Tec usage quite a bit. 

Edited October 21, 2018 by Lyfeld

[Haganu 104]

49 minutes ago, Revoluzzer said:

Ackchually

Original quickswitch was from HVR to pistol when there was no restriction for switching to your secondary after firing the HVR.

Huh, interesting.

It's still primary to secondary but, this is the first time I actually see someone clearly state what original QS really is.

The images appear to be broken though.

[foolish ninja 59]

The rate of fire decrease was a good downside, but the percentages were too high. 

Reverting the whole mod to a broken point agains is, imo, a bad move.

[AxeTurboAgresor 268]

Thank you sir, now I like u again  I agree with everything u stated.

Both new and old IRs werent perfect, but old IR is the way of lesser evil, and yes it should have been reverted months ago.

Now its time to think about other downsides, becouse IR defenitely needs one that is somehow noticeable, but it does not break anything.

[Kewlin 692]

6 hours ago, Lyfeld said:

It's true that as far as 6 shots are concerned, the difference isn't very big. The Scoped does have other perks though, The reduced recoil and increased zoom are helpful for 16:9 players, and for the most part I just whip out my secondary (such as a .45) in CQC which allows for better mobility than any N-Tec will give. Not to mention that at certain range intervals above those 55m the Scoped will need one less bullet. I've just adapted to the walk modifier thing which in turn has taught me to use cover more effectively when playing the Scoped N-Tec.

 

Of course it's not going to be the ubiquitous meta weapon that the regular N-Tec has been for so long though, unless that proposed OTW change of setting "standard" ARs back to 45m dropoff start range comes to fruition. 

 

What's also interesting is that the Carbine does have a 6 STK range of 40m (Heavy Barrel aside) which is a lot higher than the 35m where the drop off starts. I have the suspicion that carbines also use the "Rifles" curve on Beastie's post, even though back when curves were introduced, they were said to work differently. They have very little drop off which was compensated by them starting to lose damage at what's basically SMG range. Now after IR3's downside is reverted, we'll have 49m carbines and potentially even longer range OSCARs which might actually lower N-Tec usage quite a bit. 

 

Honestly, you should be moving with the N-TEC a lot of the time, even at range.

 

And yes, the SR15 uses a lower range version of the rifle curve.

[Fubukigata 14]

All in All, Every weapons should be fixed between firing switches for like let's said : 2 seconds (can be change).

 

Here's a problem:

 

-Equip on primary slot an Obir modded 3PS3 and on the secondary a FR0G Kokoe.

-Spam fire/switch and observe.

-EZ Pentakill and i'am not kidding

 

 

 

[Kewlin 692]

1 hour ago, Fubukigata said:

All in All, Every weapons should be fixed between firing switches for like let's said : 2 seconds (can be change).

 

Here's a problem:

 

-Equip on primary slot an Obir modded 3PS3 and on the secondary a FR0G Kokoe.

-Spam fire/switch and observe.

-EZ Pentakill and i'am not kidding

 

Doesn't matter if you're kidding or not, if you're saying anything is an "EZ Pentakill" you're an idiot.

[flameo17 0]

10 hours ago, Nickolai said:

I think its time to throw in my solution into the pot here.

 

Instead of having 1 UNIVERSAL MODE WITH 3 stages that have god knows what effect on some weapons why not consider this:

 

Have specific weapon CLASS mods for example: OCA Mag 1, OCA Mag 2 and OCA Mag 3

 

This way you can fine tune the mods for each specific weapon without breaking the other ones.

 

And because you will have a lot more mods to buy, their prices will be something like 5000$, 10000$ and 15000$ depending on what level.

 

I feel like this could have been suggested before and if so why it was never looked at is beyond me.

or you can do it with how cooling jacket has a different downside effect for rifle and for shotguns

[mynd 120]

Thanks @MattScott, much respect to you and the team at Little Orbit for your decision making here

[Hexerin 1140]

@MattScott You really need to stop listening to players when it comes to game balance, especially items that are part of the existing meta.

 

The complaints you're getting about Improved Rifling are coming from people who have a biased and vested interest in seeing it remain in a place of having no real downside, because that caters to what they know and the meta as it's been stagnated for all these years.

 

The reason you got all these complaints about the change is not because the change is bad (although honestly, 18% is probably a tad high for the firerate reduction), but because these people can no longer just slap the mod in a gun like the NTEC and use it in every situation with no downsides.

 

In other words, they're panicking because they no longer have their "one size fits all" solution.

 

 

Edited October 21, 2018 by Hexerin

[CookiePuss 5377]

2 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

@MattScott You really need to stop listening to players when it comes to game balance, especially items that are part of the existing meta.

 

The complaints you're getting about Improved Rifling are coming from people who have a biased and vested interest in seeing it remain in a place of having no real downside, because that caters to what they know and the meta as it's been stagnated for all these years.

 

The reason you got all these complaints about the change is not because the change is bad (although honestly, 18% is probably a tad high for the firerate reduction), but because these people can no longer just slap the mod in a gun like the NTEC and use it in every situation with no downsides.

 

In other words, they're panicking because they no longer have their "one size fits all" solution.

 

 

"Stop listening to players"

        -advice given from player

[Keshi 436]

and i kinda liked IR3 the way it was...Matt why u listen to the people that barely play

[Hexerin 1140]

58 minutes ago, CookiePuss said:

"Stop listening to players"

        -advice given from player

[Kewlin 692]

57 minutes ago, Keshi said:

and i kinda liked IR3 the way it was...Matt why u listen to the people that barely play

 

It's weird how if someone disagrees with someone else they're automatically bad, Silver, or don't play.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Kewlin
Grammar

[Keshi 436]

11 hours ago, Kewlin said:

 

It's weird how if someone disagrees with someone else they're automatically bad, Silver, or don't play.

or people that were used to the same meta for 6years and doesnt like "balancing" their stuffs

[AsgerLund 1271]

12 hours ago, Kewlin said:

 

It's weird how if someone disagrees with someone else they're automatically bad, Silver, or don't play.

I disagree with you. And just to save you the trouble, I am actually quite bad, I'm Silver, and I don't play.

 

I actually agree with you then...

[HighSociety 148]

13 hours ago, Keshi said:

and i kinda liked IR3 the way it was...Matt why u listen to the people that barely play

Yea is okay if u can choose to use or not use IR... 

But than it comes to the point when u just get a worse premodded gun and the cheaper ones are way better.

CSG20 RT > CSG20 PR 

Than some ppl just say EULA bla bla they can change what they want... 

[CookiePuss 5377]

17 minutes ago, HighSociety said:

Than some ppl just say EULA bla bla they can change what they want... 

ikr? Imagine being held accountable for things you agree to!

[HighSociety 148]

36 minutes ago, CookiePuss said:

ikr? Imagine being held accountable for things you agree to!

They can and i agreed yes.

but it's another question if thats the right move to sell stuff. 

I'm not complaining or crying when it comes to this point > it is what it is.

[LilyRain 671]

How about a hybrid solution?

 

The Raptor Condor's red-silencer-mod comes into effect when 8 bullets are fired with no breaks in between. Doing so breaks the silencer and exposes the shooter on radar.

 

 

The same mechanism can be implemented onto improved rifling in the form of overheat. Improved rifling will initially have no downside, but firing continuously enough to fill the bar can introduce the reduction in rate of fire (or accuracy or any other suitable downside). # of shots-to-overheat should be weapon-specific.

[PingOVER9000 189]

On 10/19/2018 at 8:34 PM, MattScott said:

Hi all,

 

Just like the title says, I've made the decision to revert the IR3 downside changes with the Halloween patch.

 

For the record, I still feel like the IR3 changes were better -- in most cases.

 

I still feel like the original IR3 implementation ends up with little to no downside. The mod uses set values and not percentages, so players can use that mod to force weapons out of their intended category by extending their range. Changing the mod to be percentage based allowed us to scale the upside/downsides properly.

 

However, "most cases" isn't good enough. Since the changes went live, the design team and I have been trying to solve IR3 on pre-modded Legendaries that players paid for. We toyed with a bunch of scenarios, but all of them create more complexity / variations of the same mod and muddy up understanding how the game works.

Hindsight is 20/20. We should have immediately reverted this months ago when players raised the various issues, and then gone back to the drawing board. Instead, each week it appeared like we had a new solution, so I let the changes stand while we explored each new implementation.

 

My apologies to all the players who were affected.

We'll do better in the future.

 

Thanks,
Matt

As you told, The change of IR was good and LOGIC for balance the game, but organized bad because you have made it without care for the weapon preslotted with IR, without caring for people has made purchase in the past, also present, until now u haven't changed the TTK , weapon description ETC fooling your costumers(that were your biggest MISTAKE)

 

Just make the IR actual change valid for  WHERE IT'S BROKEN, THE ASSAULT RIFLES AND SUB MACHINE GUNS(the weapons of these category with it already preslotted u may have just remove it...)

 

On 10/19/2018 at 9:37 PM, Kewlin said:

BTW, did you consider just halving the downside until you can work out a better one?

The idea seem interesting, but if you make a little calculation, u will come at the conclusion for example a NTEC with IR3, reach the TTK of a obeya/obir that sharing the same range.

 

The idea was good, but IR is broken only for weapons that have as their strongest POINT, his versatility

 

 

On 10/19/2018 at 9:42 PM, Lumshedens said:

my TAS20 Stock would appreciate this

same for obir vladstock, legit!

 

 

Edited October 22, 2018 by PingOVER9000