Rebalancing green mods

[Dopefish 248]

 

5 hours ago, Crusade said:

5 hours ago, Dopefish said:

Default (62.5hp/s, 17.6s total)
1.6s health regen delay
16s health regen time

Clotting Agent I (80hp/s, 14.9s total)
2.4s health regen delay (150%)
12.5s health regen time (78.125%)

Clotting Agent II (125hp/s, 13.6s total)
5.6s health regen delay (350%)
8s health regen time (50%)

Clotting Agent III (250hp/s, 12s total)
8s health regen delay (500%)
4s health regen time (25%)

Have you considered the other mods and systems in place before considering such a change?

Yes, though I'm uncertain if Kevlar and Fragile would heal fully in 17.6s, or if they'd be calculated around the new rate. If it's based on the latter:

Fragile would regen fully in 15.36s, 2.24s shorter (currently 11.44s).
Kevlar 3 would regen fully in 22.6s, 5s longer (currently 13.2s).

Med spray would become largely useless except for the new CA users, but that wouldn't be any different from the current meta, as everyone is running CA3 anyway.

It would be worth rebalancing the other mods as well, but I believe these changes would work even without doing that. All other green mods would become a lot more viable, and we'd see a lot more variation in matches.

[Hexerin 1142]

My personal feelings on each green mod are as follows.

Clotting Agent I is fine at 25% / 25%
Clotting Agent II is fine at 50% / 50%
Clotting Agent III should be adjusted to 75% / 75% or 100% / 100% (use the A/B testing to see which is more balanced)

Kevlar should be reworked. The upside is too wildly inconsistent in usefulness, while the downside is universally crippling.

Flak Jacket should be increased to something like 66% or 75% so it can actually be competitive. Downside is perfect though.

Fragile is neat, but the health reduction breaks far too many weapon's balance. The upside would either need a substantial increase (which cascades into other, more serious problems), or you'd need to balance every weapon in the game around Fragile's existence. The mod just needs to be reworked into something else.

[crusade 89]

36 minutes ago, Dopefish said:

 

Yes, though I'm uncertain if Kevlar and Fragile would heal fully in 17.6s, or if they'd be calculated around the new rate. If it's based on the latter:

Fragile would regen fully in 15.36s, 2.24s shorter (currently 11.44s).
Kevlar 3 would regen fully in 22.6s, 5s longer (currently 13.2s).

Med spray would become largely useless except for the new CA users, but that wouldn't be any different from the current meta, as everyone is running CA3 anyway.

It would be worth rebalancing the other mods as well, but I believe these changes would work even without doing that. All other green mods would become a lot more viable, and we'd see a lot more variation in matches.

I guess my next two biggest concerns would be scout balance and how the new Clotting agent would be useless without Med Spray. This change seems a tad too drastic to sit well with me, but it certainly is an interesting suggestion.

[Ketog 1032]

Well i think the whole modding aspect of the game needs to be revisited entirely , BUT , i'd rather have engine upgrade first.

[Virgil 55]

id go about this in a very different way.

mods certainly shouldn't take certain aspects of the game out of play.

theres also a reason why most of the better players in APB use flak jacket/tablets.

[Lord Cashpoint 269]

12 hours ago, MrsHappyPenguin said:

13 hours ago, Lord Cashpoint said:

Clotting Agent 3 is the superior green mod for a number of reasons. One of the greatest downsides of the other green mods is that it prevents you from using Clotting Agent 3.

Honestly they should make the default regeneration the same as Clotting Agent 2, make Clotting Agent 3 just "Clotting Agent", remove Clotting Agent 1 and make the current default regeneration its own green mod for whoever wants to use it.

CA3 takes way too long to recover full HP. I don't use a green mod. The only one worth having is flack jacket, but it limits your grenade capacity, so it's still a downgrade for those who don't have low-yields.

It is true that CA3 full health regeneration time is quite long - I myself use CA2, but in most situations you simply aren't taking high amounts of damage, and CA3 excels at healing small amounts of damage. Additionally, if you do say take 990 damage from a Concussion grenade let's say, CA3 will allow you to survive being hit by a following pistol shot shortly afterwards, whereas the default regeneration will leave you on 10 health for 8 seconds, which is a pretty perilous situation to be in. There's no use in having a shorter full health regeneration time overall if you're not alive to benefit from it.
 

12 hours ago, Crusade said:

I think having about CA2 as the max Clotting Agent would be fine. CA3 is too much in it's functionality. Yeah, everyone is use to it, but it's just too forgiving.

This argument is entirely fair, but I feel as if the default regeneration just doesn't fit APB's gameplay at all. It is fairly noticeable when you're fighting LTL weapons - once you've been tagged, you're left vulnerable for a long time.

 

10 hours ago, Dopefish said:

Making default character regeneration work the same as CA3, would lessen the gap between new players, and higher ranked one, aswell as act as an indirect buff for the other green mods. The description of the mod even says "Coagulants in the bloodstream cause any damage taken to regenerate itself faster, after the initial delay", which implies the opposite of the current effect. This would make the other green mods alot more viable.
 

I like that you have mentioned the gap between new and experienced players - Not having Clotting Agent is a serious problem for new players, as often they don't understand how long they have to be in cover before they will start regenerating health - and it may lead to them being overly cautious (as they have to be with the default regeneration). I think the default regeneration should be limited to CA2 for two main reasons:

1. The presence of the ever-popular Clotting Agent 3 acts as a balance counterweight against the other mods such as Flak Jacket and Fragile, which are only available to high ranked players - Although the mods do have their own downsides already, I feel as if you should have to sacrifice CA3 to use them, but with CA2 as the default regeneration, that sacrifice won't be so extreme.
2. While your mod ideas are a neat concept, I can't imagine people will use them over CA3 any more than people do right now. By keeping CA3 as its own mod with CA2 as default, hopefully green mod variety will increase.

Overall, I've always thought about the Green character mod balance, and how it was an unspoken rule that people just accepted. I'd like to see more Green mods in the future (albeit very carefully considered ones, as playing around with player health is a dangerous game)

[Unclean 45]

13 hours ago, CookiePuss said:

Geez they haven't even finished with red mods yet.
Or weapons.

 

They can multitask.. I heard that's a thing.. weapon mods=/=player mods

[Keshi 436]

14 hours ago, Lord Cashpoint said:

Clotting Agent 3 is the superior green mod for a number of reasons. One of the greatest downsides of the other green mods is that it prevents you from using Clotting Agent 3.

Honestly they should make the default regeneration the same as Clotting Agent 2, make Clotting Agent 3 just "Clotting Agent", remove Clotting Agent 1 and make the current default regeneration its own green mod for whoever wants to use it.

+1

13 hours ago, Crusade said:

I agree. They don't have the insight of experienced players, either. And how would they even know who to listen to?

To their credit, they have come up with some imaginative ways of tackling the balance. Yes, they were a little hasty in implementation of the latest patch and it's clearly costing them, but at least they seem to be more streamlined and overall more competent than the previous team.

+1

[KnifuWaifu 499]

9 hours ago, Poperon said:

I think they should, really. We need more chaos and mayhem. Red mods and Shotguns aren't enough.

Don't be limited to green mods, please mess around with purple, blue and orange mods... and don't forget to weaponize civilians with OSMAWs and OPGLs. Amen!

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

16 hours ago, TheHidden-Tember said:

oh and please don't nerf clotting agent. People will be pissed.

I'm liking the way Little Orbit is tearing down the meta with these changes, so nerf CA away! Nothing is sacred anymore!

[TheHidden-Tember 142]

After reading other people's input i've come to the conclusion that CA3 should in fact be nerfed and/or that default regen should be buffed for the sake of new players.

Kevlar and fragile would become fine if that happens (although i would personally enjoy a buff to kevlar to stop being 3shot by obir and 2shot by nhvr and a buff to fragile speed so i don't look stupid when using it)

Flak jacket REALLY needs that buff though. currently if you have any level of clotting agent and are hit by a grenade (frag or conc) just wait a bit behind cover and you'll survive the second nade. 

With flak jacket if you get hit by 2 of the nades listed above you die.

Edited August 27, 2018 by TheHidden-Tember

[Nitronik 348]

16 hours ago, Lord Cashpoint said:

Clotting Agent 3 is the superior green mod for a number of reasons. One of the greatest downsides of the other green mods is that it prevents you from using Clotting Agent 3.

Honestly they should make the default regeneration the same as Clotting Agent 2, make Clotting Agent 3 just "Clotting Agent", remove Clotting Agent 1 and make the current default regeneration its own green mod for whoever wants to use it.

What I suggested at multiple points in time was similiar to this

CA 1 is now default regeneration - it's essentially irrelevant, and giving Kevlar / Fragile / Flak Jacket this regen rate wouldn't make them OP. Plus it helps new players, which is always welcome in a game like APB


CA 2 and CA 3 split into their own mod (since there's people who 2 over 3) to streamline in a fashion similiar to the r195 mods which only have one level

  Edited August 27, 2018 by Nitronik

[Dopefish 248]

12 hours ago, Dopefish said:

Default (62.5hp/s, 17.6s total)
1.6s health regen delay
16s health regen time

Clotting Agent I (80hp/s, 14.9s total)
2.4s health regen delay (150%)
12.5s health regen time (78.125%)

Clotting Agent II (125hp/s, 13.6s total)
5.6s health regen delay (350%)
8s health regen time (50%)

Clotting Agent III (250hp/s, 12s total)
8s health regen delay (500%)
4s health regen time (25%)

6 hours ago, Crusade said:

I guess my next two biggest concerns would be scout balance and how the new Clotting agent would be useless without Med Spray. This change seems a tad too drastic to sit well with me, but it certainly is an interesting suggestion.

I think you must have misunderstood my suggestion. The new default would be exactly the same as CA3, and vice versa.
 

1 hour ago, Lord Cashpoint said:

I think the default regeneration should be limited to CA2 for two main reasons:

1. The presence of the ever-popular Clotting Agent 3 acts as a balance counterweight against the other mods such as Flak Jacket and Fragile, which are only available to high ranked players - Although the mods do have their own downsides already, I feel as if you should have to sacrifice CA3 to use them, but with CA2 as the default regeneration, that sacrifice won't be so extreme.
2. While your mod ideas are a neat concept, I can't imagine people will use them over CA3 any more than people do right now. By keeping CA3 as its own mod with CA2 as default, hopefully green mod variety will increase.

It's important to keep in mind that mods are not meant to be upgrades, but rather a way to make your character more niche. You get better at something specific, at the cost of something else. There shouldn't be any mod that feels like a must have to be competitive in the game. If you don't feel the downsides for Fragile or Flak Jacket are enough by themselves, then those should be looked at instead of having the lack of a superior mod act as a drawback.

I understand why you'd like CA2 as default regen, since it's a good middleground, and your personal preference of choice, but does that mean you'd remove all other Clotting Agents except CA3?

Your second point makes no sense to the suggestions I posted, as the current CA3 would become the new default regeneration for players, meaning that an unmodded player would regenerate as if he had CA3, and the mods would instead work in reverse to bring health regen back to how the current default is.

[Nitronik 348]

9 minutes ago, Dopefish said:

Your second point makes no sense to the suggestions I posted, as the current CA3 would become the new default regeneration for players, meaning that an unmodded player would regenerate as if he had CA3, and the mods would instead work in reverse to bring health regen back to how the current default is.

My problem with this : Who would willingly choose a mod that adds regeneration delay? 

Your suggestion honestly makes sense since CA3 is what you want to use, but you risk making all other CA mods even more irrelevant - kinda like how it is right now, where CA merely gives you the illusion of choice



EDIT : Another issue - CA3 tier regeneration with Kevlar & Flak Jacket is a big no-no in my book. Which is why I wouldn't go past CA1-tier default regeneration - you risk making all other health mods too powerful.

Add a regeneration penalty on the mods (to balance them out) and most people would dodge them, returning to the CA only meta

  Edited August 27, 2018 by Nitronik
formatting

[Dopefish 248]

Just now, Nitronik said:

My problem with this : Who would willingly choose a mod that adds regeneration delay?

Why would anyone pick CA2 instead of CA3? It's mainly long range players, that prefer the faster regeneration, and who have more readily available cover. If you don't think that's enough players, how would you compare their numbers to the amount of people who isn't using CA3 currently?

[TheHidden-Tember 142]

4 minutes ago, Dopefish said:

10 minutes ago, Nitronik said:

My problem with this : Who would willingly choose a mod that adds regeneration delay?

Why would anyone pick CA2 instead of CA3? It's mainly long range players, that prefer the faster regeneration, and who have more readily available cover. If you don't think that's enough players, how would you compare their numbers to the amount of people who isn't using CA3 currently?

people who aren't using CA3 currently are either trolls, new players, or people who have such an overpowered game sense that they don't actually get hit by enemy fire so they can just wear whatever they want except kevlar. Edited August 27, 2018 by TheHidden-Tember

[Nitronik 348]

3 minutes ago, Dopefish said:

10 minutes ago, Nitronik said:

My problem with this : Who would willingly choose a mod that adds regeneration delay?

Why would anyone pick CA2 instead of CA3? It's mainly long range players, that prefer the faster regeneration, and who have more readily available cover. If you don't think that's enough players, how would you compare their numbers to the amount of people who isn't using CA3 currently?

You pretty much said it yourself. CA2 and CA3 at least have some differences that make them worth choosing between each other. But CA1 ?

With CA2 as default regen I'm still pretty concerned about Kevlar and Flak users
 

3 minutes ago, TheHidden-Tember said:

10 minutes ago, Nitronik said:

My problem with this : Who would willingly choose a mod that adds regeneration delay?

Why would anyone pick CA2 instead of CA3? It's mainly long range players, that prefer the faster regeneration, and who have more readily available cover. If you don't think that's enough players, how would you compare their numbers to the amount of people who isn't using CA3 currently?

Big brain take : the only mod worth using is Fragile + Epinephrine spam

[StrelitziaDeWitt 56]

I'm fine with my Kevlar but if anything as long it doesn't change how the mod works in that case they should just get another green mod in or something.

[TheHidden-Tember 142]

 

Just now, AlexandraTromp said:

I'm fine with my Kevlar but if anything as long it doesn't change how the mod works in that case they should just get another green mod in or something.

Omg Alex how've you been? Haven't seen you in ages.

[BrandonBranderson 672]

This all sounds pretty nice for me, especially buffing the speed of Fragile.  Currently it's almost useless and as a Quake player I like speed :3  
Too bad I still won't  be able outrun a Jericho by strafe jumping though.

[Szambi 85]

My idea on buffing kevlar? Instead of adding health make it add you some bullet resistance... but with a twist! It would be ammo type dependent - so for example (random numbers, just to show what I mean):
-FBW with its normal pistol rounds would deal 60% less damage
-RSA uses magnum bullets so 30%
-NTEC? 20%
-HVR - 10%

...and so on.

So pretty much the bigger the rounds, the less of a damage reduction you get. And like I've said these were just random numbers to show you what I mean.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Szambi

[Psygo 15]

without having read the entirety of the thread, ill just say something dumb, I think buffing non CA green mods first is a good idea because it'd provide different playstyles.

also fragile is life.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Psygo

[LazyLizard 41]

>the feel when you've ascended the smallbrain CA3 users into the Kevlar 3 master race.
You know they say that all men are created equal, but you look at me, the kev3 and you look at CA3 smallbrain and you can see that statement is not true. See, normally if you go one on one with another ca3, you got a 50/50 chance of winning. But the kev3 is a genetic freak and he's not normal! So you got a 25%, AT BEST, at beating him. Then you add medispray to the mix, your chances of winning drastic go down. See the 3 way in combat, you got a 33 1/3 chance of winning, but I, I got a 66 and 2/3 chance of winning, because kev3 KNOWS that ca3 can't beat him and he's not even gonna try!
So CA3, you take your 33 1/3 chance, minus my 25% chance and you got an 8 1/3 chance of winning in combat. But then you take my 75% chance of winning, if we was to go one on one, and then add 66 2/3 per cents, I got 141 2/3 chance of winning in combat. See CA3, the numbers don't lie, and they spell disaster for you in APB:R. /meme

Basically, I'm comfortable with Kev3 as it is.  As for Dopefish's suggestion, i can't really agree with it, as it would throw the balance way off on the term -everyone- would be using CA3 because NO OTHER greenmod would be viable.

Edited August 27, 2018 by LazyLizard

[Danimal 36]

Fragile is awesome...mash it up with car surfer and you have a fun, wild, nutty, anti-meta gameplay...which is why I PLAYED APB. 

Will return once I have a new PC and the EU is implemented.

GG LO...keep banging out the changes...seriously.

[Lord Cashpoint 269]

39 minutes ago, Dopefish said:

  It's important to keep in mind that mods are not meant to be upgrades, but rather a way to make your character more niche. You get better at something specific, at the cost of something else. There shouldn't be any mod that feels like a must have to be competitive in the game. If you don't feel the downsides for Fragile or Flak Jacket are enough by themselves, then those should be looked at instead of having the lack of a superior mod act as a drawback.


Plenty of character mods such as Car Surfer and Valzipram Tablets have no downsides at all (along with pretty much every Orange character mod). Clotting Agent 3's advantages are so strong that its downsides are almost entirely discountable. By making CA2 the default, you're helping CA3 not be so much of a must pick - as players will not feel as disadvantaged for choosing alternate green mods. You could make CA3 the default value, arguably we are almost asking for the same idea here - which is that the current regeneration is poorly suited to APB and is holding back the other green mods. I'd still maintain having CA2 as the default mod, to allow for future green mods which can be balanced off against Clotting Agent (and because I would like under R195 players to not feel too disadvantaged). But that's just a pipe dream at the moment.
 

40 minutes ago, Dopefish said:


I understand why you'd like CA2 as default regen, since it's a good middleground, and your personal preference of choice, but does that mean you'd remove all other Clotting Agents except CA3?


Pretty much. Sorry CA1 users. I suppose we could come to a compromise, and have various levels of the default regeneration to include the current CA1.

[SLICKIEM 118]

Kevlar having damage resistance instead of extra HP makes a lot of sense, like @Szambi posted above. That alone would make Kevlar a competitive green mod.