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Weapon Balance OTW Tweaks - C/D Testing Values

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14 hours ago, Revoluzzer said:

20% might sound harsh at first, but it's not such a great deal for most weapons.

The N-Tec would still stay at a lower theoretical TTK than the Obeya CR with this version of IR3, whilst benefiting from reduced accuracy loss due to the lower firerate. With this change IR might actually reduce a weapon's short range capabilities in favour of ranged deadliness.
3

Yes but you realize that this will make IR useless as a mod itself? There is a reason why HB isn't used as a mod a lot and as it stands now your TTK will be faster with HB3 on an N-tec than it would be with IR3. The change is pointless and breaks more than it fixes. This is a fine change for shotguns as their range with the new system has gotten out of hand. 20% may not seem like a big deal but in APB every split second counts and I am certain that there are going to be very few weapons that will perform well with IR3 and that mainly due to the way their Bloom / Bloom recovery handles.
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14 minutes ago, Frosi said:

Yes but you realize that this will make IR useless as a mod itself? There is a reason why HB isn't used as a mod a lot and as it stands now your TTK will be faster with HB3 on an N-tec than it would be with IR3. The change is pointless and breaks more than it fixes. This is a fine change for shotguns as their range with the new system has gotten out of hand. 20% may not seem like a big deal but in APB every split second counts and I am certain that there are going to be very few weapons that will perform well with IR3 and that mainly due to the way their Bloom / Bloom recovery handles.
No the nerf is fine, as it is
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2 minutes ago, Kivron said:
No the nerf is fine, as it is
it’s just another sprint shooting “fix” that’s going to have the most effect on guns it wasn’t intended for, altho i suppose this time its on purpose
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10 minutes ago, Kivron said:
24 minutes ago, Frosi said:

Yes but you realize that this will make IR useless as a mod itself? There is a reason why HB isn't used as a mod a lot and as it stands now your TTK will be faster with HB3 on an N-tec than it would be with IR3. The change is pointless and breaks more than it fixes. This is a fine change for shotguns as their range with the new system has gotten out of hand. 20% may not seem like a big deal but in APB every split second counts and I am certain that there are going to be very few weapons that will perform well with IR3 and that mainly due to the way their Bloom / Bloom recovery handles.
No the nerf is fine, as it is
There wasn't much thought put into the nerf. Are you fine with the nerf because you are fine with IR3 being removed from the game?

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No the oscar needed a nerf too. I will continue on using CJ3 on my ntec, as I always have.

Edited by Kivron
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1 hour ago, Kivron said:

No the oscar needed a nerf too. I will continue on using CJ3 on my ntec, as I always have.

So your idea of IR3's nerf being good is that two case-by-case weapons needed a nerf...and since this nerf does something to both of those weapons...it's a good thing? What about the LCR? What about the Obeya? What about the OBIR? What about the N-SSW? What about every other gun that wasn't OP that used IR? Do you understand how silly you sound currently? I think IR is incredibly broken on some guns, and I definitely think IR needed to change in some way because the downsides didn't really have an effect in most scenarios, but I just can't understand why you think the nerf is good as it is when it ruins every other gun that uses it besides the N-TEC and Oscar. Oscar and N-TEC are still going to be incredibly strong regardless of if they have IR or not, this is the worst way to nerf a gun, you don't nerf a mod into garbage tier to nerf a gun, you nerf the gun itself for being broken. Edited by Similarities
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I don't know whether to respond, in kind or tell you, I couldn't care less if you think i'm being silly.

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Ogre should be as powerful as the first days on OTW , Since the CSG and the JG are now Way better , With the current damage of Ogre its Impossible to beat a CSG or JG User

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1 hour ago, Kivron said:

I don't know whether to respond, in kind or tell you, I couldn't care less if you think i'm being silly.

big xd to speak on game balance if you don't care so much then =DDD

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1 hour ago, Similarities said:
2 hours ago, Kivron said:

I don't know whether to respond, in kind or tell you, I couldn't care less if you think i'm being silly.

big xd to speak on game balance if you don't care so much then =DDD
I don't care to speak to you. I will therefore, put you on ignore. You have nothing constructive to say. He is the first mind you, hopefully the last.  Sorry, @Similarities I just feel the ntec and the oscar needed some type of nerf. No I do not want the IR3 mod to become obsolete. The n-tec needs a nerf that modifies the accuracy of when you try to jump from a corner and lean or just outright try to lean in the open. You shouldn't be able to reg every shot doing this action. The only nerf Oscar needs is you only allow one mod, either ir3 or rs3 to be put into the gun. Having both mods makes it viable, in both CQC and range combat.  Edited by Kivron
After thinking more on this, I become more of the problem not the solution
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Not sure why we are using the stats of Anubis B instead of A's - I'm sure I preferred this version and brings it closer to what it should've been, I'm sure I'm not the only one that agrees with this and if someone does disagree please tell me why as I'm curious.

As for the IR3 nerf, I have mixed opinions: I'm kinda happy to see changes to mods that will inevitably change the current META of APB's gameplay to be somewhat different and will use less common weapons slightly more, these changes need to be tested fully and therefore allow us to first use the mods and then give you feedback, instead of relying on theorycrafting to change a very popular mod.

I however disagree with the fire rate nerf to this mod and should be instead affecting accuracy at the same level as CJ3 - I personally would find this quite damaging to guns like the Anubis, Ursus, Semi-Auto rifles i.e OBIR/CR762 and will only solve certain broken features of certain guns such as OSCAR/NTEC. I think nerfs at this level should be done on a case by case basis instead of a carpet-bomb nerf to everything using it.

TL:DR - Let us test the mod in the test district, why use Anubis B over A and nerfs to weapon should be on a case by case basis instead.

- Desmila

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16 hours ago, Kewlin said:
But corner popping relies on some amount of range or else your opponent can just walk around the outside of the corner so you have no corner to pop around. Plus, the CSG and JG should be more different, and the JG has always had more of an emphasis on closer ranges, so they should just make the JG the more reliable gun within 10m and the CSG should keep its ability to push out to 20m somewhat effectively.

Corner-popping doesn't require a lot of range, as far as I'm concerned. The ability to break line of sight after the first shot creates an inherent advantage; having more range allows this advantage to grow, so giving the JG and CSG more range directly increases their corner-popping-capabilities.
While I generally agree that there should be some difference between JG and CSG, simply giving the latter more range while keeping it a 2-hit-killer will render the JG generally inferior; same situation as the STAR and N-Tec, if you will.
 

6 hours ago, Frosi said:
Yes but you realize that this will make IR useless as a mod itself? There is a reason why HB isn't used as a mod a lot and as it stands now your TTK will be faster with HB3 on an N-tec than it would be with IR3. The change is pointless and breaks more than it fixes. This is a fine change for shotguns as their range with the new system has gotten out of hand. 20% may not seem like a big deal but in APB every split second counts and I am certain that there are going to be very few weapons that will perform well with IR3 and that mainly due to the way their Bloom / Bloom recovery handles.
I disagree. It will mean HB turns the N-Tec into a better short range fighter, while IR will improve it at longer range.
Originally both mods would improve the N-Tec, then only IR did, now both work more as intended.

And even if people start disregarding red mods on the N-Tec altogether because they don't want to give up their jackest-of-all-trades, is that really a bad thing? Edited by Revoluzzer
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Yay for a yukon fix.

Not sure how I feel about the IR change just from reading. How bad is the burst interval penalty on the OBIR?

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On 8/4/2018 at 11:37 AM, LO_Beastie said:


Finally, when adding the new rifling effect for testing, I came across the Yukon bug (fire rate increase of the mod affecting hip fire), so I've fixed that while I was in there. I mentioned previously that this patch is primarily for improving weapons, but considering it's an error that was easily fixable, it made sense to fix that at the same time. This does mean it has an effective full-auto fire rate nerf from 0.045 (which is what it bursts at) to 0.078 (the actual fire rate of the base weapon).

Yup, that's G1 for ya.  Add a broken weapon, don't fix it to sell more boxes.  Thank you for all of this info though!  That stress test on Saturday was really fun.  It was really nice seeing people doing missions stress-free without raging or spamming "cheater" in the district chat.  Fun talking to the devs and GMs too.

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7 minutes ago, Kino said:

Yay for a yukon fix.

Not sure how I feel about the IR change just from reading. How bad is the burst interval penalty on the OBIR?

if ir3 is 21% increase it brings obir to about 1.5s?

guestimating 

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7 hours ago, Kivron said:
 The n-tec needs a nerf that modifies the accuracy of when you try to jump from a corner and lean or just outright try to lean in the open. You shouldn't be able to reg every shot doing this action. 
What. Jumpshotting with Ntec is legit just letting the game roll a die for you whether you get to hit or not. You will miss far more than you actually hit by doing this. I can't count the amount of times that I have jump leaned someone at point blank and still just missed everything from the inaccuracy. Not to mention it provides almost no benefit against any skilled players, the action is nothing more than an rng bming. Any time I jumpshoot someone I could have just shot them normally, killed them quicker, far more consistently, and safer.
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4 hours ago, Revoluzzer said:

Corner-popping doesn't require a lot of range, as far as I'm concerned. The ability to break line of sight after the first shot creates an inherent advantage; having more range allows this advantage to grow, so giving the JG and CSG more range directly increases their corner-popping-capabilities.

That's not really what I said though, I said make the JG more reliable at 2-shotting in CQC, which means the CSG has to be less reliable, which means the CSG would basically be how it is on live.

Also, note that with what they're doing ATM the CSG is still just going to be better than the JG, because it still has a tighter spread, and thus is still going to have better range than the JG, and thus will still just be generally better than the JG, except it's minorly worse in the area of hard damage.

Basically, there's three options:
  1. LO buffs both of them equally, and as such the CSG still stays the preferred pick by 95% of players.
  2. LO buffs them both but then makes them both effectively the same gun.
  3. LO buffs them both, but buffs the JG more, thus allowing the JG to easily destroy within 10m and the CSG to be the more skilled weapon that can push out to further ranges, giving both guns a niche, which is something the JG currently needs.

In my opinion #3 is the clear choice where everyone wins.

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6 hours ago, Desmila said:

Not sure why we are using the stats of Anubis B instead of A's - I'm sure I preferred this version and brings it closer to what it should've been, I'm sure I'm not the only one that agrees with this and if someone does disagree please tell me why as I'm curious.

As for the IR3 nerf, I have mixed opinions: I'm kinda happy to see changes to mods that will inevitably change the current META of APB's gameplay to be somewhat different and will use less common weapons slightly more, these changes need to be tested fully and therefore allow us to first use the mods and then give you feedback, instead of relying on theorycrafting to change a very popular mod.

I however disagree with the fire rate nerf to this mod and should be instead affecting accuracy at the same level as CJ3 - I personally would find this quite damaging to guns like the Anubis, Ursus, Semi-Auto rifles i.e OBIR/CR762 and will only solve certain broken features of certain guns such as OSCAR/NTEC. I think nerfs at this level should be done on a case by case basis instead of a carpet-bomb nerf to everything using it.

TL:DR - Let us test the mod in the test district, why use Anubis B over A and nerfs to weapon should be on a case by case basis instead.

- Desmila

Glad to see I'm not the only one that finds the current NCR Anubis different.
The NCR is not alright as it currently is, please do not implement it like that for the few people that actually play the weapon.
I'm not really fond of the new crosshair either, I feel like I miss way more shots with it than intended, but maybe adaptation will fix this issue. 
Suggestions for NCR:
-The crosshair becomes red when an enemy is in your crosshair (Meaning if you shoot you'll hit him)
-Less recoil between shots. (The Firerate increase doesn't help)

As some mentioned before, the Showstopper Thunder feels like a secondary NFAS in its current state and could definitely use a firerate nerf,
  Edited by Spherii
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On 8/4/2018 at 12:08 PM, 3D_fobia said:

Mountie SF9 'Yukon'
Finally, when adding the new rifling effect for testing, I came across the Yukon bug (fire rate increase of the mod affecting hip fire), so I've fixed that while I was in there. I mentioned previously that this patch is primarily for improving weapons, but considering it's an error that was easily fixable, it made sense to fix that at the same time. This does mean it has an effective full-auto fire rate nerf from 0.045 (which is what it bursts at) to 0.078 (the actual fire rate of the base weapon).

0.078? Is that a typo?
Or it kills in less than 1 hundredth of a second?

fire rate, in other words it was firing 1 bullet every 0.045s and now it's correctly only firing 1 per 0.078s, with 10/11 STK(Shots to Kill) that brings it's minimum TTK from 0.45s, to 0.78s, as originally intended.

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3 hours ago, Kewlin said:

Basically, there's three options:

  1. LO buffs both of them equally, and as such the CSG still stays the preferred pick by 95% of players.
  2. LO buffs them both but then makes them both effectively the same gun.
  3. LO buffs them both, but buffs the JG more, thus allowing the JG to easily destroy within 10m and the CSG to be the more skilled weapon that can push out to further ranges, giving both guns a niche, which is something the JG currently needs.

In my opinion #3 is the clear choice where everyone wins. 

 

Wouldn't #3 run the risk of having the JG crowd out SMGs within that 10m range?

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For improved rifling, the firing rate should be -3%, -5%. -7%.  Than again, what's the point of this change? It's such a minimal change in range that having any noticeable downside would make this mod useless. It's already useless on LMGs and other weapons that reach maximum bloom after a shot or two.

 

Edited by MrsHappyPenguin

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27 minutes ago, MrsHappyPenguin said:

For improved rifling, the firing rate should be -3%, -5%. -7%.  Than again, what's the point of this change? It's such a minimal change in range that having any noticeable downside would make this mod useless. It's already useless on LMGs and other weapons that reach maximum bloom after a shot or two.

 

Jesus, I suppose you can't look throughout the thread to find the reason stated as to why it's required..? If you put Improved rifling on your gun you're adjusting that weapon to accommodate a playstyle that is focused around range so therefore it comes with caveats that you now have to suffer up close. Because maximum bloom didn't do enough or sometimes anything at all to punish this sort of playstyle, something more determinable had to be implemented to make sure that people did have to weigh up consequences of equipping IR3 on their weapon instead of it just being a must have mod. 

Your suggestion is more of that "Not doing enough" with the change only being -3% -5% -7% change respectively you wouldn't see enough of a change that it would inhibit people from moving away from IR3 and it would again just be a straight upgrade. As Beastie obviously outlined the mod as it is was balanced strictly around shotguns and he's determining whether to keep it solely for shotguns or make more adjustments and concessions when it's equipped on other weapons Edited by AgentWatson

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26 minutes ago, MrsHappyPenguin said:

For improved rifling, the firing rate should be -3%, -5%. -7%.  Than again, what's the point of this change? It's such a minimal change in range that having any noticeable downside would make this mod useless. It's already useless on LMGs and other weapons that reach maximum bloom after a shot or two.

 

Huh? IR is very good on the N-SSW and Rabid, which are much closer to rifle-LMG hybrids than pure LMGs, but if you mean the ALIG and SHAW then yeah, rip IR because it's pretty garbage on those.

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I'm wondering what makes legenday weapons "legendary" beside they have gold icon? Idk maybe I'm wrong but I think that these weapons from boxes are becoming worthless in APB. I think that LO is on the right path to make game better, but I hope that you will make these weapons a bit different and give it slight edge over contact ones.

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7 minutes ago, EagleWing said:

I'm wondering what makes legenday weapons "legendary" beside they have gold icon? Idk maybe I'm wrong but I think that these weapons from boxes are becoming worthless in APB. I think that LO is on the right path to make game better, but I hope that you will make these weapons a bit different and give it slight edge over contact ones.

legendary is perhaps not the correct word for them, but a majority of them are meant to offer a unique playstyle - not better, just unique
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