Car Spawners should be removed

[Spudinskes 41]

16 minutes ago, Fortune Runner said:

assume? i do it regularly rofl

I wasn't questioning the possibility of you using an alig regularly, but the assertion that it is usual that people use an alig.

[Shozonu 14]

1 hour ago, Fortune Runner said:

assume? i do it regularly rofl

Maybe you do, I'm pretty sure players in general don't use the ALIG "regularly," as in a "main weapon." I only see people pull it out situationally if they really want/need to blow cars up. And even then, I don't see it that often.

Edited June 21, 2018 by Shozonu

[Khakis 28]

I completely agree with maybe making the car spawner automatically a part of your personal vehicle without taking up a slot, but for the most part its very easy to avoid/ignore the car spawning. Also, being able to constantly be aware of said spawner on the minimap it's really not that difficult to go out of your way to destroy the vehicle plus they give you one right at the beginning of the game. Also, I understand that you argue that not everyone has the money to be spending on slots, which you are correct, but I believe one of the points of the game in the first place is to earn your right through some sort of grind to give yourself your own advantage, e.x saving up money for a weapon modification.

[Clandestine 390]

10 minutes ago, Khakis said:

I completely agree with maybe making the car spawner automatically a part of your personal vehicle without taking up a slot, but for the most part its very easy to avoid/ignore the car spawning. Also, being able to constantly be aware of said spawner on the minimap it's really not that difficult to go out of your way to destroy the vehicle plus they give you one right at the beginning of the game. Also, I understand that you argue that not everyone has the money to be spending on slots, which you are correct, but I believe one of the points of the game in the first place is to earn your right through some sort of grind to give yourself your own advantage, e.x saving up money for a weapon modification.

Or just make some people be the spawner themselves... 

Often when I pug I'm the only one who has the car, who will place it in strategic spot and who will take care of it till the end.

I swear it's always like this vs teams that will have 4 car spawners and all placed in good spots. 

Maybe some people should be forced to go thru tutorial once LO will rework it however game seemed better with old spawn system.

If someone fucked up the stage then he had to respawn 500m away and suck it up without 5 more chances to come back.

[Khakis 28]

3 minutes ago, Clandestine said:

Or just make some people be the spawner themselves... 

Often when I pug I'm the only one who has the car, who will place it in strategic spot and who will take care of it till the end.

I swear it's always like this vs teams that will have 4 car spawners and all placed in good spots. 

Maybe some people should be forced to go thru tutorial once LO will rework it however game seemed better with old spawn system.

If someone fucked up the stage then he had to respawn 500m away and suck it up without 5 more chances to come back.

I didnt get to experience the old spawn system but I definitely like the people being spawners themselves under the right conditions!

[Shamis 15]

You mean Mobile Spawn Points.
But yes, they suck, as does the spawn system in itself.

[Fortune Runner 796]

3 hours ago, Spudinskes said:

I wasn't questioning the possibility of you using an alig regularly, but the assertion that it is usual that people use an alig.

seen it by enf and crim all day in NA its pretty common here

 

anyone can get them and usually someone does

1 hour ago, Shozonu said:

Maybe you do, I'm pretty sure players in general don't use the ALIG "regularly," as in a "main weapon." I only see people pull it out situationally if they really want/need to blow cars up. And even then, I don't see it that often.

you're on Jericho and haven't seen it? uh yeah ok ....

you probably didn't notice but its been like this for a while now to where daily i see quite a few carrying it

[Cr0 328]

I used to sort of agree about the spawn system in general being bad, but I was wrong (post the spawn system revamp G1 did).

Having talked to some of the best longterm players in the game, I came to understand how knowing how to deal with and use the spawn / car spawn system is like a chess game itself which I thought I understood but apparently hadn't fully understood, even though I've played for such a long time. I think it's actually pretty balanced, but now I know they are just better than me at it. These guys know how to play that spawn system chess game because they are smart and talented. I mean how come they don't think it sucks? answer: because they know how to use it. That others don't (but don't even realize it) isn't the spawn system being broken. Think about that. It frustrates their opponents getting "shitty spawns" or "bad luck" when what is actually happening is these guys out-manouvering you by making sure you get those spawns. It is anything but random, let me tell you that.  The saying "get on my level" is what they could say, and be right about it. There is still some room for improving the spawn system, but I don't think you should remove car spawners. Removing it would remove a layer of tactical complexity so the ones not as talented as these guys don't have to deal with mastering it.

 

Edited June 21, 2018 by SilverCrow

[Shozonu 14]

1 hour ago, SilverCrow said:

I used to sort of agree about the spawn system in general being bad, but I was wrong (post the spawn system revamp G1 did).

Having talked to some of the best longterm players in the game, I came to understand how knowing how to deal with and use the spawn / car spawn system is like a chess game itself which I thought I understood but apparently hadn't fully understood, even though I've played for such a long time. I think it's actually pretty balanced, but now I know they are just better than me at it. These guys know how to play that spawn system chess game because they are smart and talented. I mean how come they don't think it sucks? answer: because they know how to use it. That others don't (but don't even realize it) isn't the spawn system being broken. Think about that. It frustrates their opponents getting "shitty spawns" or "bad luck" when what is actually happening is these guys out-manouvering you by making sure you get those spawns. It is anything but random, let me tell you that.  The saying "got on my level" is what they could say, and be right about it. There is still some room for improving the spawn system, but I don't think you should remove car spawners. Removing it would remove a layer of tactical complexity so the ones not as talented as these guys don't have to deal with mastering it.

 

To be honest, I don't really have a problem with the current spawn system, at least in terms of how it works. In regards to that, I only think that the system needs to ensure players never elect spawns that are in LOS of enemy. But I definitely think that more spawn points could be added into the game for the system to choose. This would avoid bad spawn choices in certain parts of the maps, such as in the corner of the maps. This could also help with preventing players from spawning within enemy LOS by adding redundant/alternative spawns for each spawn point and letting the system choose one that is out of sight. Having higher density of possible spawns would also give players a better selection by not having as many gaps between the spawns.

 

As for "making sure you don't get those spawns," I'm assuming you are referring to normal spawn points, and not car spawners. That really isn't a thing anymore. Spawn pushing used to be a thing because players had no control over where they spawned. Player spawn points were (and still are) dependent on where they died. You could reliably push enemy spawns by attacking/rushing them in the direction they spawn, and by killing them, they would most likely spawn further away in that direction. You could probably do that 2-3 times before they spawn in a different direction. Now, you can't do that because players could just choose to start spawning in from a different direction immediately, instead of being forced to spawn farther away. I don't think I need to explain how ridiculous it'd be to genuinely predict and position 2+ players to block specific spawn choices, just so that the enemy might be forced to pick a sub-par spawn (whose location you don't know unless the fight is occurring in a corner of the map).

 

If you mean to imply that there is some chess to be played with the car spawners, I don't think there's as much to it as you make it sound. A lot of people drive their car spawner and leave it as if it were a normal car without any deliberate positioning, the mobile spawn point being a convenient afterthought. People who deliberately position it leave it as close to the objective/camp site as possible. People who counter enemy mobile spawners go out of their way to either sit on it for like 12 seconds, or blow it up. And then people will probably just spawn another car anyway when they respawn, and the same thing will happen again. The extent of "mastering" mobile spawners is to place them just far away enough that maybe less than half of players would bother going out of their way to blow it up, while still being a viable spawn for allies. The extent of "mastering" countering enemy mobile spawners is disabling/destroying them on sight.

Edited June 21, 2018 by Shozonu

[Winter Shyvana 31]

I beg to differ from many players here who seem to think they're fine as they are. I believe implementing them was a mistake they tried to "duct tape fix" by adding cooldowns, but are still gamebreaking since we all know how brilliant the matchmaking is and thus, it makes a one sided match even more one sided. 

If you were to ask me, I'd question every mod that has been added since G1 was in charge. Not saying they suck or did a bad job, but most of the new mods are um, questionable in their usefulness.

[iSkully 7]

It can get ridiculous with four or more players placing cars in a circle around an objective, you can take the players all out but they just come right on back no matter how many times you kill them. Normally taking out that many cars in the first place, with them being pioneers and all it'll just end up wasting more time than needed. 

 

Also can't believe how many times I've finished killing people, began running to a point and just ten meters away some guy magically pops into a car like it's meant to be. I definitely think there needs to be changes because I've spawned even though an enemy was clearly around the car albeit a rare incident.

[Cr0 328]

1 hour ago, Winter Shyvana said:

...but are still gamebreaking since we all know how brilliant the matchmaking is and thus, it makes a one sided match even more one sided. 

You can't argue that a mission was made even more one sided due to car spawners, because everyone is free to use them.

What makes missions one sided due to matchmaking is skill, talent and experience. That's a seperate issue.

1 hour ago, iSkully said:

It can get ridiculous with four or more players placing cars in a circle around an objective, you can take the players all out but they just come right on back no matter how many times you kill them. Normally taking out that many cars in the first place, with them being pioneers and all it'll just end up wasting more time than needed. 

How is taking out car spawners wasting time if someone is losing because of it?

Edited June 21, 2018 by SilverCrow

[Bornstellar 108]

They appear on your map so blow them up when you see one. It's really not that difficult.

[Winter Shyvana 31]

2 hours ago, SilverCrow said:

You can't argue that a mission was made even more one sided due to car spawners, because everyone is free to use them.

What makes missions one sided due to matchmaking is skill, talent and experience. That's a seperate issue.

Yes, but a more skilled/experienced team would make better use of the car spawner Thus the car spawner would be a huuuge asset to a team that is already dominating That was I tried to convey

[Cr0 328]

1 minute ago, Winter Shyvana said:

Yes, but a more skilled/experienced team would make better use of the car spawner Thus the car spawner would be a huuuge asset to a team that is already dominating That was I tried to convey

yeah but that has nothing to do with car spawner being unbalanced or gamebreaking. that's just good players.

[Dopefish 248]

On 6/1/2018 at 11:52 AM, Dopefish said:

Just the fact that a single mobile spawner gives an advantage to the teams using it, should say enough about the mod. The reason why entire teams are using it, is in case one of them would be destroyed or blocked, they still have the others to rely on. It also takes considerably more time, effort and resources to take out more than one car spawner, which is time not being spent on the actual mission, while also giving away your position as you go through each car spawner. During this time, the enemies can easily just spawn a new car and place it somewhere else instead.

 

If you're not running concussion grenades, satchel charges and anti-vehicle weapons, you might not even be able to destroy the vehicles in a timely matter.

 

As someone already mentioned in this thread, a mobile spawner on an overpass let's long range players repeatedly spawn there, until the opposing team actively moves away from the objective to remove that mobile spawner. Something else that's already mentioned is that mobile spawners let's you literally respawn next to the objective, and I don't I need to explain how broken that is. If one team are using mobile spawners, and the other team aren't, the team without will be at a severe disadvantage, and that's not a matter of being able to use other mods to balance it out.

 

Other than when the mod was new, I've not seen a single person using radar tower for the last few years. Not a single one. I think the mod is really great, it's just that people use mobile spawner instead, which is another reason why that one needs changing, so that we can get more variety to the game. The mobile radar tower is beneficial for sure, but unlike remote detonator, it doesn't instantly kill the enemies without being able to do anything against it.

 

If mobile spawner would no longer be the dominant choice, then radar tower would become more prevalent, and so would radar jammer as a result.

 

EDIT:
Muffler would also become a viable choice. So changing mobile spawn point would make atleast three other mods more viable. That by itself should be reason enough to change it.

The devs themselves knew how broken the mod was, and is the only reason that it didn't have rank 195 requirements like everything else that was introduced at the same time.

[BlatMan 708]

4 hours ago, Bornstellar said:

They appear on your map so blow them up when you see one. It's really not that difficult.

Only if they are within radar range. Blowing them up automatically gives your position away to any mediocre player.

[ch4ncer 87]

On ‎6‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 9:58 PM, Hyenard said:

Hate to break the news to you but more than 50% of people said it needs to be removed or changed in some way. that means that more people have a problem with it, than dont.

Hate to break the news to you but the poll is poorly made and twisted into OP's favor, these 50% that you speak off are made off of 2 seperate options which is unfar to the majority of people, if not all.

Im breaded like mozzarella sticks.

[Dopefish 248]

Those who are fine with car spawners, do you feel the game would become worse without them, and if so, why?

[CookiePuss 5377]

11 hours ago, Dopefish said:

Those who are fine with car spawners, do you feel the game would become worse without them, and if so, why?

I just feel like it would both slow down, and dumb down the gameplay.

APB can be highly tactical, and I for one love this about the game.

 

That being said, changes do need to be made for the game to thrive, so Im willing to give anything a shot.

 

 

[Nite 261]

12 hours ago, Dopefish said:

Those who are fine with car spawners, do you feel the game would become worse without them, and if so, why?

I feel the game would become worse without them, because the built-in spawn system has some prominent shortcomings in the mission districts from what I've seen:

• Spawns often placed on one side of the objective area, especially for areas near the edges of the map, making it really difficult to flank larger enemy teams in a decent amount of time (and with mid-stages being often so short time is a precious resource in the game)
• Spawn points that get placed further away from the objective the more often you die to the defending team, making further attempts to attack more difficult (arbitrarily so IMO)
• Some regions of the map can occasionally run out of spawn options (for some strange reason) leaving you with nothing but a forced spawn at some random location (hardly ever a good situation to be in)

 

For all the negatives of Mobile Spawn Point, it brings some semblance of control back into a system that is sorely lacking in such at times.

[Dopefish 248]

First of, thanks @CookiePuss and @Nite for taking the time to reply with their thoughts.

 

On 6/24/2018 at 6:17 PM, CookiePuss said:

I just feel like it would both slow down, and dumb down the gameplay.

APB can be highly tactical, and I for one love this about the game.

 

That being said, changes do need to be made for the game to thrive, so Im willing to give anything a shot.

I like the depth and tactical gameplay of APB, and sure, removing something would give you one less thing to think about (aka dumbing it down), but I really don't think it adds any depth to the game, quite the contrary. You can mostly place the car spawners wherever around an objective without much thought, and still gain a big advantage from them.

 

I also believe that a nerf, integration, or removal of the car spawner would make muffler and radio tower (and consequentially radar jammer) viable options, adding more variation to the game, which would then give plenty of new things to think about.

 

 

On 6/24/2018 at 6:46 PM, Nite said:

I feel the game would become worse without them, because the built-in spawn system has some prominent shortcomings in the mission districts from what I've seen:

• Spawns often placed on one side of the objective area, especially for areas near the edges of the map, making it really difficult to flank larger enemy teams in a decent amount of time (and with mid-stages being often so short time is a precious resource in the game)
• Spawn points that get placed further away from the objective the more often you die to the defending team, making further attempts to attack more difficult (arbitrarily so IMO)
• Some regions of the map can occasionally run out of spawn options (for some strange reason) leaving you with nothing but a forced spawn at some random location (hardly ever a good situation to be in)

You bring up some very valid points, but the car spawners doesn't really solve these issues, just circumvent them some of the time. This is a much bigger task (but something I've always felt been needed either way), but would you consider nerfing or removing car spawners if the spawning system would be reworked?

 

 

To illustrate one of the issues I have with car spawners, check this clip below:

 

Kemp seemed to just drive up as close as he could to the objective, which caused his car to be placed at that location. He died and then ran back in time to help his teammate to recapture the point, whereby their team gets wiped. Now because of that car, they have time to spawn 30m from the objective with line of sight to the enemies and are able to prevent them to recapture the point. That single car spawner completely changed the outcome of that match.

[CookiePuss 5377]

10 minutes ago, Dopefish said:

@CookiePuss@Nite

 

Kemp seemed to just drive up as close as he could to the objective, which caused his car to be placed at that location. He died and then ran back in time to help his teammate to recapture the point, whereby their team gets wiped. Now because of that car, they have time to spawn 30m from the objective with line of sight to the enemies and are able to prevent them to recapture the point. That single car spawner completely changed the outcome of that match.

It did but only because both guys on Kemp's opp decided to run to the point whereas if one would have stayed where he was, that spawner was already blocked.

 

But I do like what you said about the removal of carspawn making other mods more viable. I think you have a good point.

[Nite 261]

4 hours ago, Dopefish said:

First of, thanks @CookiePuss and @Nite for taking the time to reply with their thoughts.

 

I like the depth and tactical gameplay of APB, and sure, removing something would give you one less thing to think about (aka dumbing it down), but I really don't think it adds any depth to the game, quite the contrary. You can mostly place the car spawners wherever around an objective without much thought, and still gain a big advantage from them.

 

I also believe that a nerf, integration, or removal of the car spawner would make muffler and radio tower (and consequentially radar jammer) viable options, adding more variation to the game, which would then give plenty of new things to think about.

 

 

You bring up some very valid points, but the car spawners doesn't really solve these issues, just circumvent them some of the time. This is a much bigger task (but something I've always felt been needed either way), but would you consider nerfing or removing car spawners if the spawning system would be reworked?

 

 

To illustrate one of the issues I have with car spawners, check this clip below:

 

Kemp seemed to just drive up as close as he could to the objective, which caused his car to be placed at that location. He died and then ran back in time to help his teammate to recapture the point, whereby their team gets wiped. Now because of that car, they have time to spawn 30m from the objective with line of sight to the enemies and are able to prevent them to recapture the point. That single car spawner completely changed the outcome of that match.

 

I personally tend to be biased against removing features from a game (any game, not just APB) instead of fixing them, I just feel its the lazy way out of a situation unless its something critical. Nevertheless, if the built-in spawns were reworked enough to address the points I mentioned, I'd dare say having a Mobile Spawn car would be redundant anyway, probably even a waste of a precious mod slot. So yeah, if APB gets a better enough spawn system I'm all for removing Mobile Spawn Point.

 

(Re: that Kemp clip, I'm honestly quite surprised the enemy team let that Mobile Spawn go unmolested like that, I'm so used to enemy groups trashing my spawn cars for being so close to the point I've made it a habit to never park closer than 80m to the point.  I'm with Cookie in saying Kemps opposition derped it up with that.)

[Todesklinge 143]

Remove spawn cost and set a cooldown to 5 Minutes.

 

 

This can stop car spaming in missions.