Call for Shotgun Testing

[Tragia 12]

Pre-LO 2017/ early 2018 shotguns were the most balanced shotguns APB has ever had.

I am speaking of the JG, CSG, and N-fas. Even the DOW was fine really, though the current one doesn't feel super broken like the n-fas.

 

The stats you posted are the ones we need.

I have tested with friends in scrims.

It is great. Please put this change into the live game as soon as possible.

 

Please don't continue trying to fix things that aren't broken because of whiney players. Yes, shotguns are better than SMGs up close. That is the point. They have incredibly low accuracy at medium range compared to SMGs and start to lose the fight around 10-15 meters. 2017 CQC weapon class as a whole was exactly where it needs to be.

 

In fact, all of the changes you guys have made at LO have been terrible. You continuously try to balance weapons that are already perfectly balanced (Oca, Ursus, now the regular n-tec).

The RFP was a bit broken but you destroyed the gun by raising its TTK to an unusal amount. The only thing ever wrong with the RFP was the accuracy recovery after sprinting, which was to counter sprint shooting before they actually removed sprint shooting from the game. All you had to do for that weapon was fix the accuracy recovery. Its the way you messed with the dropoff range that broke it. It should have stayed 30 meters.

 

Stop tweaking things that are balanced.

Early 2018 or so APB was the most balanced the game has ever been in terms of weapons. Don't you guys see your numerous changes have begun to ruin that?

 

Slowly look at weapons that are underused and bring them up, don't keep nerfing everything. Ntec, ursus, star, pmg, oca, jg, csg, nfas, scout, obir, obeya, oscar, fbw, 45, shaw, alig, were all balanced just fine at the beginning of 2018.

Yes, guns like the cobra and the carbine could use a little bit of love. Leave the rest as they were in 2018 and slowly focus on bringing up weapons that need love with LOTS OF THOROUGH testing.

Instead you guys mega-buffed the n-fas to be incredibly broken and have left it that way for over a year. That is not the right approach.

 

IMO you guys should revert everything back to early 2018 and for the most part, leave it alone. If you want to give VERY subtle buffs to underused weapons that is perfectly fine but don't immediately start adjusting TTKs and overhauling weapons that don't even need it.

Its not like you're losing any progress because all you've done is make the gun balance much worse than it ever was.

 

Learn from your mistakes and do it right this time.

You could even do gun tests in FC for a week or two at a time, do community polls (OSRS does this), and let those votes determine if the test makes it into the game permanently.

Reverting the Oca buff and now shotguns is the right decision.

Please do that, but also revert some of your other changes as well.

 

[Ellix 415]

All the new stats are great.

However the Shredder needs a slight buff - this weapon's TTK or DPS is something that you need to look into.

 

[Mitne 724]

3 hours ago, Ellix said:

All the new stats are great.

However the Shredder needs a slight buff - this weapon's TTK or DPS is something that you need to look into.

 

Shredder needs overall rework.

In my opinion this weapon is so broken that you either can make it too op or heavily nerfed compared to others.

[CookiePuss 5378]

5 hours ago, Tragia said:

Pre-LO 2017/ early 2018 shotguns were the most balanced shotguns APB has ever had.

I am speaking of the JG, CSG, and N-fas. Even the DOW was fine really, though the current one doesn't feel super broken like the n-fas.

 

The stats you posted are the ones we need.

I have tested with friends in scrims.

It is great. Please put this change into the live game as soon as possible.

 

Please don't continue trying to fix things that aren't broken because of whiney players. Yes, shotguns are better than SMGs up close. That is the point. They have incredibly low accuracy at medium range compared to SMGs and start to lose the fight around 10-15 meters. 2017 CQC weapon class as a whole was exactly where it needs to be.

 

In fact, all of the changes you guys have made at LO have been terrible. You continuously try to balance weapons that are already perfectly balanced (Oca, Ursus, now the regular n-tec).

The RFP was a bit broken but you destroyed the gun by raising its TTK to an unusal amount. The only thing ever wrong with the RFP was the accuracy recovery after sprinting, which was to counter sprint shooting before they actually removed sprint shooting from the game. All you had to do for that weapon was fix the accuracy recovery. Its the way you messed with the dropoff range that broke it. It should have stayed 30 meters.

 

Stop tweaking things that are balanced.

Early 2018 or so APB was the most balanced the game has ever been in terms of weapons. Don't you guys see your numerous changes have begun to ruin that?

 

Slowly look at weapons that are underused and bring them up, don't keep nerfing everything. Ntec, ursus, star, pmg, oca, jg, csg, nfas, scout, obir, obeya, oscar, fbw, 45, shaw, alig, were all balanced just fine at the beginning of 2018.

Yes, guns like the cobra and the carbine could use a little bit of love. Leave the rest as they were in 2018 and slowly focus on bringing up weapons that need love with LOTS OF THOROUGH testing.

Instead you guys mega-buffed the n-fas to be incredibly broken and have left it that way for over a year. That is not the right approach.

 

IMO you guys should revert everything back to early 2018 and for the most part, leave it alone. If you want to give VERY subtle buffs to underused weapons that is perfectly fine but don't immediately start adjusting TTKs and overhauling weapons that don't even need it.

Its not like you're losing any progress because all you've done is make the gun balance much worse than it ever was.

 

Learn from your mistakes and do it right this time.

You could even do gun tests in FC for a week or two at a time, do community polls (OSRS does this), and let those votes determine if the test makes it into the game permanently.

Reverting the Oca buff and now shotguns is the right decision.

Please do that, but also revert some of your other changes as well.

 

Aside from your misunderstandings on what has or hasn't been done to certain weapons at this point, I do feel that same frustration. 

Edited January 18, 2020 by CookiePuss

[vsb 6171]

9 hours ago, Tragia said:

were all balanced just fine at the beginning of 2018.

about half the guns you mention in your post haven’t been touched

[Hexerin 1140]

11 hours ago, Mitne said:

Shredder needs overall rework.

In my opinion this weapon is so broken that you either can make it too op or heavily nerfed compared to others.

Please don't fuck over my Shredder. I'd be willing to accept lower damage in exchange for higher rate of fire, though. Make it a 4 STK that borders on 5 STK, might be interesting to test out.

[vsb 6171]

4 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Please don't fuck over my Shredder. I'd be willing to accept lower damage in exchange for higher rate of fire, though. Make it a 4 STK that borders on 5 STK, might be interesting to test out.

i'd rather it just be made more accurate so that ir3 can be used more effectively

[Hexerin 1140]

Just now, Solamente said:

i'd rather it just be made more accurate so that ir3 can be used more effectively

It has relatively tight groupings, and also reduced pellets besides. Can't get much more accurate without simply changing it to slugs (at which point it's just a more extreme variant on the Misery or ISSR).

[vsb 6171]

4 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

It has relatively tight groupings, and also reduced pellets besides. Can't get much more accurate without simply changing it to slugs (at which point it's just a more extreme variant on the Misery or ISSR).

the shredder isnt even as accurate as the thunder (albeit very close), there's definitely room for improvement

 

 

Edited January 19, 2020 by Solamente
typo

[Maeryth 7]

On 1/16/2020 at 12:31 AM, Sakebee said:

Hey everyone,

 

I’ve been settling in and getting to know the community these past few days. I’ve really appreciated all your warm welcomes and messages. Today, I’d like to talk a little bit about our work on balancing shotguns.

 

I understand that the 2018 shotgun changes did not go over well. Since then, Little Orbit has been focusing on getting much more community input to help bring shotguns back to a fun and healthy place. That is where you all come in.

 

Now that we’ve got our EU servers situated, we’d really love your feedback. If you get the chance, please organize with some friends and do some missions in the Prototype District. Actual play will give us the best data for shotgun improvements. We’d particularly appreciate your thoughts on the Showstopper, as this gun will need the most love moving forward since it came out after the 2018 changes. After you’ve gotten a chance to play around with things, don’t forget to leave your thoughts here in this thread.

 

Once we’ve gathered some good feedback from this initial round, we’ll be ready to get a prototype version of Asylum up and running, so every post counts! Also, don’t forget that the Prototype District rewards extra Joker Tickets.

 

Thanks!

 

Sakebee

Hey there @Sakebee, nice to meet you, welcome.

 

Me and my friends are not motivated in testing these changes, im going to give you some simple reasons for that.

1. I need to pay for everything like is not a test district, ammo, granades, consumables charging, car spawning;

2. The weapons you asking to test aren't sent to the mailbox like the previous ones (everybody need to pay for them or have them alredy);

3. The system keep spamming the same text everytime you die/rejoin it;

More.

 

At the end, i also think JT's are not enough as reward to be given to whoever thinks to play in there with all these missing key features and changes.

No offense, but a Test District, should appear and be a real Test District, not just a financial with the name changed and couple of changes that you need to read on the forums.

 

For example.. putting these changes written into the district itself wouldn't be a bad idea, for who don't read the forums, just make a contact and if you press on it you will open the page saying all informations.

 

Really there is no reason for us to play in there, except few joker tickets that we can even earn in the normal districts or in fight club (until you make these changes)

Ah and also this thread shouldn't stay in this section.

Is not related to game districts or social, but tests, which usually goes into OTW and if not into another section, but not this.

 

Be sure to read everything, of course not everyone will agree with me, because sadly i know how is made this community.

Tag/quote me, if you wanna answer.

Edited January 19, 2020 by DjMary

[xHenryman90x 129]

On 1/16/2020 at 8:22 AM, Hexerin said:

Why am I not surprised that people are starting to bitch and whinge about the CR762 now that the NTEC got nerfed? It's almost like we all called it...

 

 

Maybe decreasing the firerate could be enough?

[Lign 361]

2 hours ago, xHenryman90x said:

Maybe decreasing the firerate could be enough?

Lol, obeya is good as it is. People bitching about it because many players use it. What a surprise that f2p weapon is being used more often than other weapons. Next thing people is going to bltch  if obeya gets nerfed is Oscar. And when everything gets nerfed we will come back to the moment when ntec will be stronger than every gun again. And forum silvers will start bitching again

 

Merged.

 

On 1/17/2020 at 3:13 AM, Solamente said:

i don’t think that would actually differentiate the gameplay very much as you’d still be using 3stk and 4stk shotguns very similarly, although it would be amusing to see the thumper fire even faster than it already does

 

alternatively, what about lowering max damage close to 3stk (something like 525-550) and raising the ttk (between .7-.75s)?

 

id much rather keep the current pump shotgun playstyle and attempt to deal with the issues it causes than delete it altogether

It can potentially just kill the entire shotgun category. They might increase ttk only with the current shotties. Because at the cornerpopping they are nearly unkillable if you don’t catch a shotgun user on mistake.

Edited January 19, 2020 by Lign

[Acornie 490]

Options on limited testing: JG and CSG feel much more balanced; aka they are effective within their intended distances and IR does not feel like such a buff... however the .68 feels so dayum fast now; my personal opinion is the .73 is a fine interval, maybe not even that much higher but please, please leave the CSG and JG at the same fire interval
 

Showstopper is interesting, I thought at first it was upped to a 4 shot, so it def feels like a nerf, but to be honest this is fine because it was rather strong for a seconday

I can't comment about the Nfas or Ogre objectively because I hate both of them, but I can say I was glad to have not been melted at greater than 10m with an IR3 Nfas... the Ogre is still a spam cannon so I feel like it might regain it's throne of being the more annoying of these two.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Acornie

[CookiePuss 5378]

Felt great using the CSG and getting kills again.

Please give.

[heyheyheyhey 0]

The prototype shotguns are PERFECT! Wow! I forgot how balanced the game was a few years ago.

I can actually beat smgs incredibly close but fail miserably once they get some distance on me. Exactly how shotguns should be and how they are in most games.

 

Shotguns perform very consistent on this prototype world. The damage, range, ttk, and spread are much more consistent and balanced.

The TTKs are great too. The current CSG ttk is so bad its not even funny, but its a very fun weapon to use with the prototype stats and it performs quite different from the JG giving us two very different pump shotguns.

 

Nfas is still incredibly strong up close, but it isn't broken like it is in the current game. Have not tested the Dow, but I remember it being about the same as the nfas which is fine with me. The Shredder is the only gun that may need stats different from the 2017 prototypes, but I've never used it so I can't give much input.

 

tl;dr: Prototype stats are incredibly balanced and fun. I can't wait for this change to make it to live.

[TCRisky 9]

CSG is an amazing shotgun all around. With the correct setup, you can seriously crack some skulls. And dreams... 

Edited January 20, 2020 by TCRisky

[Ketog 1031]

My only feedback is: 

 

Please reverse the shotguns to what they were before, no one called them overpowered, no one asked for them to be balanced.

 

Guns that were asked to be modified the most were NTEC-5, HVR, ATAC, not shotguns.

[CommandantSteele 52]

Personally...

 

The shotguns feel pretty great to shoot, though the district was empty at the time so I couldn't get any PVP in. However, there are a couple of changes I'd like to request. These mostly concern the Shredder and the Strife.

 

For the Shredder: I'd like to see it given a slight ROF buff since it's the second slowest firing shotgun in the stats that were posted in the other shotgun thread, and using it just feels kinda awful. I would wager that giving it a fire interval of 0.390 (What you get when you equip CJ3 on it atm.) wouldn't be so bad. Additionally, I'd like to see it's damaged buffed a little bit, perhaps up to something like 50 damage per pellet? (50 x 9 = 450. Still 3 STK at 450/900/1350)

 

The main reason I ask for a damage buff is that the drop-off feels kinda wonky on it. My experience using the Shredder on live has been pretty rough in that I've engaged people who are well within the 20m drop-off start and even though I've hit them consistently they didn't go down until I was about 5 shots in, which was pretty painful. Thus, the increased damage might help the drop-off curves a bit. Though that being said I could see some concern raised that the combination of giving it the previously mentioned ROF buff and the damage buff might turn it into *too* much of a killing machine, although according to APBDB's calculations the TTK (using live values and giving it CJ3) would be 0.78 seconds, it doesn't seem that bad, but I could be wrong and this is kinda the point of testing.

 

If someone's better at the math, feel free to correct me.

 

For the Strife: I understand and enjoy the niche that the Strife provides, however I feel like the refire time of 1.25 seconds feels like it could be slightly buffed without doing too much damage. I know that balancing the firing speed of the Strife is tricky because it is smacking people for 950 damage, and having it smack too fast can turn it into a game-breaker. Maybe buffing it to 1.15 instead of 1.25 would be an idea?

 

Alternatively, and this one will be very controversial, the Strife could be reworked to be a different type of shotgun altogether. A common weapon in video games is a "Super Shotgun", and the Strife is almost a perfect fit into that trope, but it's not quite there. My suggestion would be to change the Strife from a pump-action shotgun into a double-barrel break action shotgun.

 

Here's some prototype stats to detail out how I imagine this would go:

 

Damage: Unchanged from provided shotgun stats.

Accuracy: Unchanged from provided shotgun stats.
Drop off: Unchanged from provided shotgun stats.

Fire interval: 0.70 (0.02 higher than provided CSG/JG stats.)

Reload time: 0.5 (Identical to Thumper, no partial reloads.)

Magazine capacity: 2. (Configured in a way that modifications don't affect it, similar to rocket launchers.)

Reserve ammo: 20. (-5 from shotgun stats.)

 

The basic gist of this weapon is that you would lean fully into the feast/famine idea that the Strife already toys with, styling it akin to the .45 AP in that you have to either hit your shots perfectly or you lose the fight. Alternatively, if you wanted to provide the gun with a little more wiggle room (As the .45 will allow you to miss twice per magazine), the weapon could be styled as a four barrel shotgun and given a total capacity of four with potentially a reload of 0.7 seconds (Identical to CSG/JG provided reload.)

 

This redesign will likely not be enjoyed by some parts of the community, as when I bring it up on the APB Discord it's frequently shot down as being a fairly dumb idea. However, I wanted to at least put it out there.

 

That'll be all.

[WorldDominator 61]

I'll be giving my 2 cents about the main pump shotguns (jg/csg) only,

Just revert those two shotguns to what they used to be exactly before your 2018 shotgun balancing, both pump shotguns felt good with their 0.68 firerate and did well standing their ground vs each other while keeping their styles unique and the so did they vs other cqc weapons so i don't support the idea of increasing their firerate at all, some people think this kind of firerate is too much which it seems like on paper when it's not the case in pvp where each player's movement/aim/predictions are the deciding factors in any cqc fight or any fighting in general.

 

Btw since this is supposed to be a revert then let me ask why does the jg have a max damage of 790 instead of 720 (what it really used to have)? 

[SmilyFace 300]

Tested out 3/4 times now in the prototype district together other players and few friends.

 

As my point of view i will say that i was pretty happy about old stats (2018), but the Shredder need a lil bit of buff and the NFAS a bit of nerf.

JG and CSG just need to be reverted where they were because actually i feel these guns strange in my hands honestly, not that terrible but still.

[M72_LAW 6]

How about making all weapons more deadly?

 

This would be extremely game changing, and I would love to test it out. At the moment players are unnatural bullet sponges that don't mind getting five assault rifle bullets stuck in their vital organs. At point blank range that is. This makes surprising the enemy and getting the first shot off less effective, while also spoiling many other tactical aspects.

 

Increasing weapon damage would make overall weapon balancing easier. This kind of combat would focus more on player awareness and reflexes, rather than comparing precise TTK values of each gun. Shorter times to kill would also make using macros less beneficial.

 

I know that APB:R is an arcade shooter and not supposed to be realistic, but the current balance does not make any sense. Especially for new players that have played any other games with firearms. Hitting a hostile multiple times only to reveal your position and have him (or her) fully regenerate, is always frustrating. 

 

The current system feels almost like the famous dice roll combat system present in Morrowind. In the sense that opponents stop to farm damage on one another, halting the flow of overall gameplay.

 

Does this make defending overpowered?

 

Yes and no. Obviously attacking positions would become more demanding if an entrenched opponent could stop the assaulting players with fewer bullets. But that is how it is in the real world. How do they manage it? With tactics and combined arms warfare. 

 

Taking advantage of your map knowledge and advancing in a smart manner will keep you undetected, allowing you to surprise the defenders. Fire and movement tactics would also get a prominent role, by having a teammate secure your advance with his fire and vice versa. A faster TTK would also reward a sneaky lone wolf, as taking out multiple exposed enemies would become more plausible.

 

Grenades could also receive a buff, either in the shape of incresed damage or a higher blast radius. A damage buff would reward precision while increased range would make softening hostile positions more reliable. Both could be achieved by buffing the damage of conqussion grenades and the blast radius of frag grenades.

 

The need for an additional tool would arise, smoke grenades that is. Trading explosive firepower to the chance to blind a powerful enemy position would be an interesting choice, and really add something to the game. Sure the crosshair could still turn red but spotting targets would become a lot harder no matter what.

 

+60% damage, +60% fun?

 

That would mean four shots to kill with assault rifles such as STAR 556. Stats are from APB:DB.

 

Some examples of guns with only the bullet damage being multiplied by 1,6:

 

STAR 5,56;          4 STK - 280 Damage - 0,45 s TTK

N-TEC 5:             4 STK - 296 Damage - 0,42 s TTK

OCA-EW 626:     5 STK - 200 Damage - 0,4 s TTK

Colby PMG:        4 STK - 320 Damage - 0,525 s TTK (The rate of fire could be buffed.)

Joker Carbine:    4 STK - 288 Damage - 0,45 s TTK

Obeya CR 7,62:  3 STK - 392 Damage - 0,42 s TTK (Faster than the carbine but less mobile.)

OBIR:                  2 STK - 792 Damage - 0,6 s TTK

SHAW 5,56:        5 STK - 200 Damage - 0,32 s TTK

ALIG 7,62:           3 STK - 360 Damage - 0,36 s TTK

Obeya FBW:       4 STK - 288 Damage - 0,6 s TTK

Colby .45 AP:     3 STK - 360 Damage - 0,4 s TTK

Stabba CCG:       5 STS - 227,2 S.Damage - 0,6 s TTS

Stabba NL9:       2 STS - 640 S.Damage - 0,78 s TTS

Agrotech DMR:  2 STK - 640 Damage - 0,8 s TTK

N-HVR 7,62:       1 STK? - 1360 Damage - 0 s TTK*

N-HVR .243        2 STK - 880 Damage - 1,75 s TTK

Colby JG:            2 STK - 0,7 s TTK**

 

*(One shot to kill could be outrageous in a game without hitboxes for body parts. Although the low rate of fire (1,75 s) would still make an N-HVR 762 slower at stopping multiple targets compared to something like a buffed CR762. Strangely enough, both of these guns are supposed to fire the same 7,62x51 mm round.)

 

**(In a third person game, shotgunners can guard corners without exposing themselves. Therefore a one shot kill would be a bit too much. The ability to pump the shotgun in cover is also why I think that submachine guns should beat shotguns out in the open. The pellet spread should be less extravagant in my opinion, and a single full shotgun hit should do close to 85% damage if other guns were buffed.)

 

Sure balancing changes to rate of fire from gun to gun could still be made. Although these would all kill so fast that reflexes and positioning would play a much more important role than just the TTK of the weapon.

 

I won't suggest changes to effective weapon ranges or these low vehicle max speeds, as those are limited by game performance unlike weapon damage. Hitboxes for specific body parts would of course make damage buffs a lot more reasonable, such as having head and torso as vital targets while arms and legs not so much. I just don't know if that is something the developers could invest time in for now.

 

Is this worth a try?

 

In my opinion, definitely. I would love to have a weapon prototype district run with deadlier weapons for a week or so. I'm sure it would attract more players than usual, since changes would be a lot more noticeable than usually. If nothing else, a healthy discussion is always welcome.

 

-With love, your favourite light anti-tank weapon, M72LAW.

[Hexerin 1140]

5 hours ago, Freewind said:

the Strife could be reworked to be a different type of shotgun altogether

How about we don't fuck over those that actually like the Strife?

Not every gun needs to accommodate the gameplay of every player.

 

Get that through your heads. Some of us actually enjoy these guns.

[CookiePuss 5378]

7 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Get that through your heads. Some of us actually enjoy these guns.

Ok, but only if you get it through your head that others don't.

[Fortune Runner 796]

7 hours ago, Ketog said:

no one asked for them to be balanced.

some did.

6 hours ago, Freewind said:

the Strife could be reworked to be a different type of shotgun altogether

you scare me

1 hour ago, CookiePuss said:

Ok, but only if you get it through your head that others don't.

unfortunately we cant please everyone , especially those who like feeding off of bronzes when they are gold

[TheHidden-Tember 142]

The way I see it this just means OCA needs a buff.