Does RFP need a nerf?

[Nitronik 348]

13 hours ago, Lign said:

Replace ir3 on fang with ir1 or nerf base accuracy to make it harder cornerpopping and hit full burst from 40m

IR3 to IR1 swap should probably be done even before any actual nerfs imo

[DonBlack 59]

22 hours ago, CookiePuss said:

I'm a .45 AP man myself. 

Sexiest gun in APB. 

so true

[DonBlack 59]

So 74% said yes on the survey.

Thats quite a clear result. Would be nice if thats gonna happen as soon as possible when the new engine is around.

[CookiePuss 5378]

5 hours ago, DonBlack said:

So 74% said yes on the survey.

Thats quite a clear result. Would be nice if thats gonna happen as soon as possible when the new engine is around.

74% of 10% of the max pop

That's always been the issue with polls... Even when worded well (which this one is not), there's never enough voters. 

 

 

Edited May 13, 2019 by CookiePuss

[lauo 15]

1 hour ago, CookiePuss said:

74% of 10% of the max pop

That's always been the issue with polls... Even when worded well (which this one is not), there's never enough voters. 

 

 

If you aren't willing to participate in the polls that's you're fault. If they now get upset that their precious secondary is nerfed you shouldn't have a problem with voters for long. LO needs to start trying shit. The IR thing wasn't great but at least they tried and learned something from it. Its always possible to go back.

Edited May 13, 2019 by lauo

[CookiePuss 5378]

1 hour ago, lauo said:

If you aren't willing to participate in the polls that's you're fault. If they now get upset that their precious secondary is nerfed you shouldn't have a problem with voters for long. LO needs to start trying shit. The IR thing wasn't great but at least they tried and learned something from it. Its always possible to go back.

I participate in any poll that provides useful data. 

Most players do no even use the forum. 

Though I guess if you really believe in changing the game based on the opinion of 38 or 34 people who voted in a poorly constructed poll, you are entitled to that opinion.

[DonBlack 59]

On 5/13/2019 at 4:59 PM, CookiePuss said:

74%

It's even 80% now... a slight nerf to some guns can't be too bad. The changes can still be revoked when people don't like them.

[illgot 379]

change the equip time to .8 seconds

 

It's honestly a bit too good for quick swapping after your primary runs out of ammo considering it's damage and range.

[foscor77 169]

no plz its just going to end up broken if devs decided to tweak it so just leave it the way it is and instead focus on other guns underdeveloped guns like snub nose or that long ranges secondary gun colby rsa.

[DonBlack 59]

1 hour ago, foscor77 said:

no plz its just going to end up broken if devs decided to tweak it so just leave it the way it is and instead focus on other guns underdeveloped guns like snub nose or that long ranges secondary gun colby rsa.

problem isn't that other guns are bad (well maybe in the case of snubnose) but RFP is better in most scenarios.

[KleinerHorst 1]

I think the problem of RFP is that it is incredible on closerange and still really good on range.

I think its hipfire should get nerfed.

[Clandestine 390]

Give it one more burst to kill. This weapon is too reliable with little to no downsides. 

[FriendlyFires 13]

this gun needs to be nerfed.
why even they buffed it before.

[Thial 176]

The fang is the king of corner camping when it comes to secondaries. Up close and in the open you will most likely loose unless the other person sucks. Does it need a nerf ? I would say no with a grain of salt but it could use a little rebalance. Just stop running around in the middle of the street and use a car instead and you will be fine.

Edited June 9, 2019 by Thial

[Hexerin 1140]

Simply revert the range buff it was given years ago (bring it back down to 30m from the 40m it's at) and it'd be fine.

 

Edited June 9, 2019 by Hexerin

[Benguin 141]

nah game is fine

[KnifuWaifu 499]

Burn the POCKET OBIR! Burn it!

[liliya 11]

I only used the RFP as my secondary pretty much from OBT til whenever this last change was. I have 3 variants of it and for years I hardly saw anyone else using it. Now it's frequently used and feels incredibly easy compared to before. It had a bad nerf a few years ago in like 2015, then a slight buff that made it perfect.

I'm sad it got further changed to push it over the edge of what's reasonable. It does seem the burst lands way to accurately no matter what range or if aimed or hip fired. I've shelved it for now and am trying to get better at .45'ing since it's also amazing but has no room for error.

[yood 345]

now at the moment I am against any modifications of the weapon . perhaps later , when the servers will come to a stable state .

Edited June 12, 2019 by Yood

[Tenginima 74]

As per usual, the majority of the forum community (and to an extent the APB community as a whole) do not understand how to properly nerf, buff or change weapons. 

 

The most common nerfs mentioned are more or less. 

 - Making it more inaccurate, I.E hipfire nerf.

 - Nerfing its range and or changing IR3 to IR1

 - Combining various small nerfs, most likely the 2 above, making it totally gimped by death by a thousand cuts.

 

The first problem that people have when saying that the "RFP needs a nerf" is that they don't specify what RFP, the 3 variants are different. They have different stats and utilities.

 

The tierlist for these 3 RFP's is the following.

 - Talon (silenced RFP) is the worst one, sporting that least effective range, with the only upside being less recoil, barely noticable at that too, it is Underpowered.

 - Stock RFP, this RFP is the most balanced one, after all the buffs to the RFP this one and the Fang managed to join the now holy trinity of secondaries (which are available to everyone). Namely the FBW, 45. and Stock RFP and Fang. The stock RFP is Balanced.

 - Fang, the most hated one, this one is arguably Overpowered, as it brings all the advantages of the Stock RFP with barely any trade-off. the Increased Bloom is only noticeable when you fire at max or close to max firerate, which the Stock RFP also struggles with (the bloom becomes to much). IR3 is what brings this gun to its insane levels of performance. The Fang is Overpowered.

 

So firstly people need to start talking about the same gun, most people most likely mean the Fang when they say "RFP". However, it's not a guarantee that everyone knows that. Hence I think we should be clearer with what actual gun we mean.

 

Secondly the 2 most prominent nerfs that people are suggesting are the most faulty ones. Decreasing the Hipfire accuracy is a very dumb idea, as it will increase the amount of RNG involved in RFP hipfire battles. And god knows this game does not need more RNG, the hitreg is already bad enough, and I think that most "professionals (the very good players in the game)" will agree that Bloom and base inaccuracy is a bad design decision, since it leaves RNG as a big enough variable that it is noticeable. Obviously skill and the battle's context is what will decide most battles, however, decreasing base accuracy does only award luck, not skill. It is one of the worst nerfs you can give a gun. Some guns can be inaccurate and get away with it, but that is a discussion for another time. 

 

Another thing to know about the hipfire of the RFP is that it is completely blown out of proportions. People make it sound that it is the best thing that has ever graced this green earth, but really a FBW and 45 will outbeat it in most scenarios (hipfire battles that is). For example. Let's say you have 2 equally skilled players, one has a FBW, one has a RFP, no nades, both have clotting agent 3 and they are fighting at full health, both stand behind the same corner. What you will notice is that the FBW user will have to expose himself for a few less milliseconds while poking at the RFP user. Basically when the FBW user peaks and pokes the RFP, the RFP will still fire its last bullet when the fbw is already behind cover. In the amount of time it takes for an RFP user to shot his entire burst at the FBW user, the FBW user can pop him with 2 bullets, inbetween the RFP users bursts. Both the FBW and 45. are better "poking guns" then the RFP (all variants), hence they will always win a somewhat fair fight against an RFP while hipfiring.

 

The second nerf, i.e nerfing its range, is also somewhat dumb, as it's only really applicable for the Fang, since the Talon and Stock RFP has fine range (The Talon will have fine range once my suggestion on how to buff it has been read). and with all the extreme examples of for instance the "9 bursts at 100m" never happens, it's extreme hyperbole and in practice will almost never happen in-game. I understood his point, it was to highlight inbalances with the RFP, however it was a poor form of arguing, as really, that is a problem with minimum damage, rather then range, aswell as the accuracy loss while the burst is going on will mean that you will not likely hit those 9 bursts perfectly.

 

The reason why just "nerfing" the range of the Fang isn't smart is because it would not "fix" the underlining issue with the Fang (I.E High minimum damage, and not a steep enough range decrease).

 

So the correct way of nerfing the Fang is simple, you decrease its firerate as that is what makes it beat out all the other RFP's. It has all the advantages of all the other RFP's without any of the downsides (realistically speaking). Since the Fang is a more (on paper atleast) specialized secondary, I:E long range RFP, why not have it be long range, but the tradeoff is not being super good close range? Exactly, since the Fang is essentially in the class of the RSA's and ACT44's of the game, but with all the bonuses of a close range secondary. So make it Mid-Long range. Nerfing its firerate would seriously decrease its effectiveness in CQC. When the firerate is slow enough to have a ttk over 1 sec, perhaps like 1.25 it will be all fine.

 

This while buffing the Talon, make the talon the Short range variant of the RFP's, faster fireate and slightly increased base accuracy while hipfiring, but with a serious decline in minmum damage and damage falloff.

 

All this while keeping the regular RFP intact. 

[Uhtdred 235]

54 minutes ago, Tenginima said:

As per usual, the majority of the forum community (and to an extent the APB community as a whole) do not understand how to properly nerf, buff or change weapons. 

 

The most common nerfs mentioned are more or less. 

 - Making it more inaccurate, I.E hipfire nerf.

 - Nerfing its range and or changing IR3 to IR1

 - Combining various small nerfs, most likely the 2 above, making it totally gimped by death by a thousand cuts.

 

The first problem that people have when saying that the "RFP needs a nerf" is that they don't specify what RFP, the 3 variants are different. They have different stats and utilities.

 

The tierlist for these 3 RFP's is the following.

 - Talon (silenced RFP) is the worst one, sporting that least effective range, with the only upside being less recoil, barely noticable at that too, it is Underpowered.

 - Stock RFP, this RFP is the most balanced one, after all the buffs to the RFP this one and the Fang managed to join the now holy trinity of secondaries (which are available to everyone). Namely the FBW, 45. and Stock RFP and Fang. The stock RFP is Balanced.

 - Fang, the most hated one, this one is arguably Overpowered, as it brings all the advantages of the Stock RFP with barely any trade-off. the Increased Bloom is only noticeable when you fire at max or close to max firerate, which the Stock RFP also struggles with (the bloom becomes to much). IR3 is what brings this gun to its insane levels of performance. The Fang is Overpowered.

 

So firstly people need to start talking about the same gun, most people most likely mean the Fang when they say "RFP". However, it's not a guarantee that everyone knows that. Hence I think we should be clearer with what actual gun we mean.

 

Secondly the 2 most prominent nerfs that people are suggesting are the most faulty ones. Decreasing the Hipfire accuracy is a very dumb idea, as it will increase the amount of RNG involved in RFP hipfire battles. And god knows this game does not need more RNG, the hitreg is already bad enough, and I think that most "professionals (the very good players in the game)" will agree that Bloom and base inaccuracy is a bad design decision, since it leaves RNG as a big enough variable that it is noticeable. Obviously skill and the battle's context is what will decide most battles, however, decreasing base accuracy does only award luck, not skill. It is one of the worst nerfs you can give a gun. Some guns can be inaccurate and get away with it, but that is a discussion for another time. 

 

Another thing to know about the hipfire of the RFP is that it is completely blown out of proportions. People make it sound that it is the best thing that has ever graced this green earth, but really a FBW and 45 will outbeat it in most scenarios (hipfire battles that is). For example. Let's say you have 2 equally skilled players, one has a FBW, one has a RFP, no nades, both have clotting agent 3 and they are fighting at full health, both stand behind the same corner. What you will notice is that the FBW user will have to expose himself for a few less milliseconds while poking at the RFP user. Basically when the FBW user peaks and pokes the RFP, the RFP will still fire its last bullet when the fbw is already behind cover. In the amount of time it takes for an RFP user to shot his entire burst at the FBW user, the FBW user can pop him with 2 bullets, inbetween the RFP users bursts. Both the FBW and 45. are better "poking guns" then the RFP (all variants), hence they will always win a somewhat fair fight against an RFP while hipfiring.

 

The second nerf, i.e nerfing its range, is also somewhat dumb, as it's only really applicable for the Fang, since the Talon and Stock RFP has fine range (The Talon will have fine range once my suggestion on how to buff it has been read). and with all the extreme examples of for instance the "9 bursts at 100m" never happens, it's extreme hyperbole and in practice will almost never happen in-game. I understood his point, it was to highlight inbalances with the RFP, however it was a poor form of arguing, as really, that is a problem with minimum damage, rather then range, aswell as the accuracy loss while the burst is going on will mean that you will not likely hit those 9 bursts perfectly.

 

The reason why just "nerfing" the range of the Fang isn't smart is because it would not "fix" the underlining issue with the Fang (I.E High minimum damage, and not a steep enough range decrease).

 

So the correct way of nerfing the Fang is simple, you decrease its firerate as that is what makes it beat out all the other RFP's. It has all the advantages of all the other RFP's without any of the downsides (realistically speaking). Since the Fang is a more (on paper atleast) specialized secondary, I:E long range RFP, why not have it be long range, but the tradeoff is not being super good close range? Exactly, since the Fang is essentially in the class of the RSA's and ACT44's of the game, but with all the bonuses of a close range secondary. So make it Mid-Long range. Nerfing its firerate would seriously decrease its effectiveness in CQC. When the firerate is slow enough to have a ttk over 1 sec, perhaps like 1.25 it will be all fine.

 

This while buffing the Talon, make the talon the Short range variant of the RFP's, faster fireate and slightly increased base accuracy while hipfiring, but with a serious decline in minmum damage and damage falloff.

 

All this while keeping the regular RFP intact. 

you can't nerf FANG and keep RFP intact. That's like nerfing obir vladivostok and keeping obir (stock) intact.

 

no sense.

[Tenginima 74]

15 minutes ago, Uhtdred said:

you can't nerf FANG and keep RFP intact. That's like nerfing obir vladivostok and keeping obir (stock) intact.

 

no sense.

You can, simply make the guns seperate lol. That isn't very hard to code at all.

[CookiePuss 5378]

20 minutes ago, Uhtdred said:

you can't nerf FANG and keep RFP intact. That's like nerfing obir vladivostok and keeping obir (stock) intact.

 

no sense.

 

4 minutes ago, Tenginima said:

You can, simply make the guns seperate lol. That isn't very hard to code at all.

Give all RFP the Talon range of 30m. 

IR3 brings Fang to 37m. 

 

Done. 

[Tenginima 74]

5 minutes ago, CookiePuss said:

 

Give all RFP the Talon range of 30m. 

IR3 brings Fang to 37m. 

 

Done. 

It would still make Fang the best, while needlessly nerfing 1 fine gun and keeping 1 underpowered gun completely the same.

[vsb 6171]

1 hour ago, Tenginima said:

You can, simply make the guns seperate lol. That isn't very hard to code at all.

having a nonsensical downside to only one preset gun variant is just as ridiculous as half the nerfs you've ranted against 

 

we already have too many guns with unique mechanics due to shoddy balancing, i'd rather not add one more