A Message to Little Orbit and the APB Community

[Tenginima 74]

Hello Everyone. My name is Tenginama (don't mind the misspelling on my gamersfirst acc, there's a long story too it). Most people probably don't know me and those that do knows me via Fightclub, as that is basically where I spend all my time at. I made a vow of silence when I started playing apb, I didn't want to interact on the forums instead chose to simply watch and listen to what my fellow people had to say about the game. Why I did this is I wanted to see where the game headed without my interaction, and simply I really enjoyed all the butthurt comments on here, always makes me chuckle a bit.

However recent additions and changes have made me break that vow of silence as APB is now for the lack of a better term, on it's final legs, LO is APB last hope, and this is our Final Stand. And since this is our Final Stand, I am not just going to sit down and watch as this game finally sinks to the ocean. And as such, I am going to post my first (and most likely ever) post on these forums.

Recently, when LO took charge they decided to make quick, large sweeping changes, to prove themselves to the APB community as their deserved heroes. While many of their intentions are good, and certainly they are doing a hell of a lot more the g1 did, their methods are not perfect. Know that this is not a post to hate on LO, not even close, I will commend them for the monumental task that they are trying to achieve, but like all things they are not perfect and this post is going to explain a lot about it.

And for those that don't have the patience to read thru my endless blabbering, I will make a TLDR; for you too.

NR1 - Weapon Balance (Note, I am not speaking of mere opinion, my opinion will come at the end of the post, I will put up scenarios and of course hypothetical situations to prove my point)

While most players can agree that there was and still is some guns in APB that are a bit iffy in terms of balance, whether that be over-performance or under-performance. Most of the guns and gun-play in APB is fine, I will explain why.

Let's go over the most mentioned nominators and the problems people have with them (both post and pre patch)

NTEC: The gun that all people love to hate. 

Now the NTEC is fascinating as it represents one of the biggest issue about APB's balance overall, not just gun balance. Now i've already said that I will keep my opinions down at the bottom, but I want to reinstate that so people knows very well that I am simply looking into the gun and its applications in APB as objectively as possible.

Now the biggest reason people complain about the NTEC and talk about it so much is the fact that it is the most used assault rifle in the game. The reason to why it is so highly used compared to other Assault rifles is because of a few simple reasons, both obvious and not so obvious. It is the most viable Assault Rifle in the game. It can deal with almost every single situation that the games throws at you with consistent performance. While it is not as good as let's say Shotguns and SMG's close range, and rifles at long range, it can still but up a good fight close range, just like medium and long range.

It is very modifiable, only few mods actually hinder the gun more then what they add to certain parts of it's strength while reducing it's effectiveness in other areas. For instance with HS3 makes the NTEC more long ranged, while reducing it's effectiveness close range. Some people will argue that it is negligible at best, however spraying from the hip close range with vs without HS3 is a very noticeable change. Or putting CJ3 on the NTEC made it a lot better at burst firing while fully autoing it was severely hindered. Basically there were a few questionable mods for the NTEC such as IR3, that added more to it's strengths without adding a significant enough side-grade, 

However other then a few outliers, mods for the ntec did more streamline the NTEC into specific roles  rather then straight up buffing it, which many people would have you believe.

And finally, in practical terms, the NTEC is more or less the only other assault rifle available to players that don't decide to spend money on the game. Because the only 2 others that can be accessed thru in-game contacts is the STAR, Raptor and FAR, but the FAR and Raptor is an event gun, thus kinda excluding those guns as well. And while you could make the argument that the Joker Store is a way for F2P players to access premium guns such as The Misery, FAR, ISSR-A etc in realistic terms it's a pretty poor argument. Cause while yes you can TECHNICALLY get those guns in the joker store, they only last for 7 days and are highly overpriced, let me explain. If you are a F2P player and want to try let's say the Misery, they are going to have to pay at the minimum of 700 Joker tickets and 1000 if they want the 3 slot one. Let's do the math, in order for you to get 700 tickets with only Fightclub you must do the following, finish both the bronze and silver activities on both maps and the 2 Gold ones. Since if you only do both the 2 bronze and 2 silver ones and only 1 gold, you'll only have 600 tickets, thus making it mandatory to reach gold in both maps. 

Now the reason to why this is an issue is because while it is very easy for me to get to gold and stay there, mostly because of the low pop of the game. That does not mean it is not hard for others. Getting 2 Nade kills is rather hard when you are newer at the game. While the activities aren't that hard themselves (in baylan) if you aren't a super good player, they will take a very long time to get, it's the same as asylum, unless you score high, you won't be making as much money, making it more of an issue about time rather then skill. Skill more or less just speeds up the process, however the grey line is passed when you must be in the gold of both Fightclubs, making it a long grindy chore for most players. Again the better players won't have an issue, but the majority in this game is average, making the exercise very slow in nature, too slow as matter of fact.

Now I hear you say. "But Tengi, we can do daily activities" And yes you are very correct in that, but realistically, if you aren't R255, you won't be making much ticket wise at all in mission districts. as a R255 you can make 115 tickets a day. But as someone who starts out it is a lot, a lot smaller. Not only that, but many people don't even know how to effectively utilize daily activities because they are like most things in this game, poorly explained. Thus making Daily activities not that good, again unless you are R255 and decent at the game. 

Thus one of the biggest issue of the gun, is funnily not the gun itself, it is because other guns are simply not as available as the NTEC. As many other Assault Rifles will outplay the NTEC when utilized correctly.

However that is what people diverge. We all agree on the fact that the NTEC is viable, super viable as matter of fact. It's easy to learn and use, and well rounded. But is it OP? Answer is of course not. And I am going to explain why.

As I mentioned above there are many Assault rifles and other guns that will beat the NTEC in various scenarios. Let me break some of them down. 

Let's begin with the NTEC's intended competitors, the other Assault Rifles. The STAR is the other available Assault Rifle to all players, the reason why the STAR is usually tossed to the side once a player gets the NTEC is because the NTEC is simply more viable at 30 too 60m then the STAR. Thus in many players view it is the better Assault Rifle as it can compete with other guns, such as rifles, snipers etc at longer ranges then the STAR. What people tend to misunderstand about the STAR and NTEC is that people say that the NTEC is flat out superior. But this statement is simply false. the STAR is much better at killing people close range and at 0 - 30m. As its bloom and low accuracy loss while fully autoing allows it to shoot faster without interrupting while still remaining accurate. Compare this to an NTEC, if you were to fully auto and NTEC at 30m, after the first 3 bullets, it would be very hard to hit, but with a STAR, you can still somewhat reliably hit people. Thus the STAR is better then the NTEC at those ranges.

Same as with the Ursus, aka NTEC-7, it is a lot better then the NTEC in most ways, but it also has a higher skill cap to compensate, as you use it more like a rifle then an Assault Rifle. As matter of fact, the Ursus is a lot better then the NTEC is almost every way, but you don't hear people complain about the Ursus cause again, it's is very hard to get, especially if you are a F2P player.

Another example is the Misery, specially after the patch, being able to shot you 4 times before you gotta wait again, again this gun is also, arguably more powerful then the NTEC. 

What all of these guns have in common is one thing. They are NOT available in practical terms, to the casual or F2P player. Thus albeit these Assault Rifles being better then the NTEC in more the 50% of ways, people don't complain about them cause they are not that widespread enough. Another thing that these guns (except the STAR) have in common, is that they have a higher skill gap then the NTEC, they are harder to use and harder to learn, and usually they are a bit more specific in their roles, again, making the NTEC more of a common choice because of it being more simple to use.

I can make the same a argument for countless guns, for instance  the fact that the NSSW is basically a bigger and more long range NTEC, but more specialized, and more unavailable, thus, making it a bit less versatile close range but more powerful in the areas that most people complain about with the NTEC. 

Now, finally I will explain the absurdity of people when they put up examples of why the NTEC is OP. 

Example 1. You can use the NTEC close range and beat OCA's and CSG's aswell as other SMG's and Shotguns. If you were to take to equally skilled players, with the same advantages and disadvantages, Player A has an NTEC (Stock) and Player B has an OCA (Stock). Both players have equal cover and we must exclude grenades, we can only look at the guns themselves. In what scenario, will the NTEC, do a better job at pushing the OCA? And basically fighting the OCA at 10M. Answer is, none. While yes you CAN push and you CAN fight CQC, you won't excel at it. For instance, I can take an SBSR and push with an OCA or Shtogun CQC, again, I CAN do it but it will be highly inefficient. Now if we include other things such as grenades, mods etc. The result will basically be the same, for instance if the NTEC user throws a grenade at the OCA, the OCA pushes, and at those close ranges, the OCA will statically win over the NTEC, even when the NTEC has the massive advantage of cover. Why? Because again, while the NTEC is strong CQC, it is not as bad as people make it out to be. And no matter how you change it, mods, grenades etc, the result will more or less be the same. 

It's the same principle with Rifles, and snipers, they will outplay the NTEC in their specific situations. Just like it was designed. And just as it is meant to be. 

While it is obvious that people mean that the NTEC is simply"Too Good" at it's unspecified roles, it is simply an effect of Bandwagoning and the effect of people not knowing what great alternatives there are out there. 

Now i've talked enough about the NTEC, the reason why I did bring up the NTEC for so long is simply because it is one of the greatest examples of the point i'm trying to make to LO, and that is that they SHOULD not focus on balancing the gun play, at least not Now.

Because essentially, except from a few outliers like the pre-patch Yukon, HVR, Low yields etc. Most guns in APB are funnily enough, balanced. Including mods ofc, again IR3 being more or less the only unbalanced mod for certain guns. More on this mod later.

Basically the road with all the changes will change guns for the worst in a lot of areas. For instance the change to IR3 was a good change for Assault Rifles, as I made them more specialized in long range encounters. but worse in close range, which is how mods should work, you trade one thing for another. The issue is the fact that the IR3 nerf was simply to hard on some guns, mostly the OBIR. The OBIR is fascinating cause it is better then the Obeya Rifle in the sense that it has a higher skill cap, but more potent usage, it's more consistent even at max burst rate. However, the IR3 change has a very bad consequence for the OBIR. Basically the Obeya Rifle, OSCAR etc those rifles didn't go to change with the nerf, as for instance with the Obeya rifle you would not get a good use out of IR3 if you max fireated it, as it would bloom to much, so while technically you can't shot as fast, the gun itself in how it plays is barely affected, as you simply shoot at a more consistent firerate. The same is for the OSCAR, but for the OBIR, the story is a lot more different. 

You see, with the OBIR you kinda had to rely on IR3 to really maximize it's efficiency, as while it is competitive without it, IR3 really pushed it into more or less what it should've been. the Problem is though that the current application of IR3 on an OBIR, will severely limit it's ability to perform, as the much slower fire-rate is not even near as much of a fair trade-of for the extra 7.5m. As putting IR3 on the gun now just gimps it so hard.

The OBIR has had an interesting history since it was actually nerfed way back when, when they reduced the fire-rate of the gun, now with the IR3 change, it is basically pissing on the corpse of IR3 OBIRS.

Now the OBIR is difficult in this whole sea of changes as it needs the extra range, but also how do you balance that with IR3? Well you see I think that LO should do Mod specific maluses and bonuses, like Cooling Jacket has for Shotguns. What I am suggesting is that just like CJ, IR should have specific weapon role downgrades and upgrades. For instance, on Assault rifles IR should make them fire slower, as they become more like dedicated long range Assault Rifles rather then Assault Rifles. While on Rifles it should only add a maximum Bloom increase, as in with the Obeya Rifle, there was a reason to use IR3 over CJ3 and wise-versa. Because CJ3 was viable, as it made the Obeya a monster while gimping its range a little, and while IR3 did the opposite. And just like Heavy Barrel is also viable on Obeya Rifles as it can be used to more or less make them into more lower damage laser cannons.

On the OBIR however it's a bit more difficult. The only viable red mod on the OBIR is literally IR 1,2 and 3. As CJ won't affect the interval between bursts, only speed up the bullets in the burst itself, and HB will simply gimp it as the OBIR already have practically perfect accuracy. So that leaves us with IR3, and sadly, G1 did a lot of game balancing around mods, it's very apparent in some guns, like 3PS3 for HVR's etc. 

The issue to why this gun is so hard to balance is because of one thing, and that is the separate discussion of Mods in APB being side grades rather then arguable upgrades. Both devs and players alike agree that mods should be side-grades rather then upgrades, but the reality of almost everything is that some things WILL benefit more from certain things compared to others. Such as HS3 for snipers etc. But sadly it is an impossible task to make all mods side-grades rather then upgrades, without completely destroying certain guns and mods,

So should some mods be arguable upgrades? Yes, and is that ok? Yes. Because you see, as long as they are Better at One specific thing but worst at another, it is ok. Ofc take this with a grain of salt, as certain upgrades are simply to big to ignore. So the issue is more about how big is that advantage rather then if it is an advantage. Cause again, HS3 will ALWAYS be better on Obeya Rifles and OBIRS rather then on OCA's and Shotguns. 

So what am I suggesting with the OBIR? Remove the 18% firerate for IR3 on the OBIR, and make Cooling Jacket actually have an effect on burst Rifles. HOWEVER, many people don't know this, but IR3 WILL make a large difference on the last shot on the OBIR, thus making it worse for tight corner fighting. Which is enough of an sidegrade. CJ3 already have a side-grade, and that is that if they implement it so that it affects burst interval, then the gun will be even harder to use. Cause you see currently, it's very hard to fully track someone while shooting them with and OBIR at maximum fire-rate. CJ3 would just add to this, so while it technically would not make it worse, simply fire faster, it would increase the skill gap of the gun, because if you want to make efficient usage of that fire-rate, you must be a very good player. Which in itself is a significant side-grade.

So LO, don't change the effective range on the Assault rifles, and don't change the range of Rifles, as they simply are fine where they are range wise. The issue is more about mods not being specific in side-grades for specific weapon Roles


Same with shotguns, they should not get a nerf to their fire-rate, as that is not the issue people have with them, the issue is that they are to  easy to use in people's opinion. Shotguns are fine where they are right now, as it has the same issue as the NTEC bandwagon. Reducing fire-rate will simply ruin them.

NR2 - What LO Should focus on.

While I do see why LO wants to focus on re balancing the game, to quickly make it more fair and balanced it is simply not what the game needs right now, and sadly, it has been proven that their changes, albeit well intended, have not been super loved.

For instance the shotgun  balance, while I do think personally it was a good change (except for the shredder) it did piss many people off, if we look at the steam charts, APB is now losing players again, I don't know how to post pictures, but a quick google search will for steam charts will show what I mean.

And on the upcoming balance changes onto rifles and shotguns etc, it sadly will not change what APB is suffering from right now, and that is Content Starvation. 

Basically while I am fully aware of you people are working on the engine atm. The wisest thing would be to add small amounts of FREE in game content until you are finished with the engine. After which you should work on making major game additions such as new maps, new contacts, new mechanics etc. And after that networking so that you can have more people in the servers, and finally balancing.

To sum it down Small Free Content Updates (guns, cars, clothes, small events) - Engine Update - Mayor Content - Networking - Matchmaking (have more players in a district would make matchmaking far superior) - Finally Weapon re-balancing.

This will ensure that it is always something new, as at the moment, despite the new secondary, we are somewhat content starved.

Ofc changing certain things, like game-breaking bugs, Super OP guns like the current Shredder etc is ofc a priority, but that should not have to be stated.

NR3 - Changes to how districts work

Currently, Golds can go to silver, silver to bronze and above, and bronze and green to green and above. Why is it, that if you reach gold in a bronze district, that you are allowed to stay? You should get transferred into a silver district/gold as soon as you hit gold/silver in a server that is 2 steps beneath you. This will prevent farming to some extent.

Increase the amount of players per District. Currently we can only have 45v45 correct? Well in order for the matchmaking system to work properly it needs a bigger pool of candidates to choose from, thus working with improving the net-code etc to allow for 100v100 district will solve a lot of APB's issues regarding unfair matches.

All in all, that is it. It's very late for me so I wil depart now, however I hope LO sees this, as it will hopefully help them understand the game better and what it actually needs. And  about to those people that tell me I am simply butthurt, no, not at all, I'm not even a main in most of the guns I've listed. But I have maxed literally every Weapon role in the game and have had hundreds of hours of experience with almost every gun in the game. So I do think that I can add quite a bit of valuable insight into in-game balance.

TLDR; Stop with the current weapon re-balancing and do the following Small Free Content Updates (guns, cars, clothes, small events) - Engine Update - Mayor Content - Networking - Matchmaking (have more players in a district would make matchmaking far superior) - Finally Weapon re-balancing.

I wish you all a good night, takecare.


 

[Acornie 490]

Oh my lord, how many words is that? It's like an essay

But I agree with the TLDR, get this current 'tweaking' sorted (the 9/19 patch) then move on to more important things, adding content and events etc is a way to keep players around, being able to see work going into the game, making it worth spending some hard earned moolah on

(3,823 words, I checked)

[Asparii 50]

37 minutes ago, Tenginima said:

TLDR; Stop with the current weapon re-balancing and do the following Small Free Content Updates (guns, cars, clothes, small events) - Engine Update - Mayor Content - Networking - Matchmaking (have more players in a district would make matchmaking far superior) - Finally Weapon re-balancing.

I try and make a habit of reading the entire post and not just the TLDR but..Damn I'm gonna have to compromise on that here.

I thought I'd give my opinion on this.
Having more players in a district would be fun, especially if the district was stable however what's the point of having a fully functioning large district if the weapons aren't fun to play with?
At least how it is now the servers are stable, not as large as they could be but they're certainly viable, and having those balanced weapons in my opinion is more important for where the current state of the game is.
I also think it's easier to focus on major updates before doing smaller ones, as smaller ones won't always go smoothly and will constantly push things back further and further.

[Latsha 71]

great speech, you literally said what was lying on my heart lately about all these rebalances and why ntec shouldn't be as bashed as less-skilled players expect it to be
i feel like these players' biggest problem is that they miss, whereas good ntec players know how their gun behaves and what they should expect from it, successively hitting all shots causing people to think that ntec is overpowered
more players in a district would be great, but due to current customization limits and the fact districts are kind of giving up at 50v50 we would have connection problems, so yeah we need to wait for that engine upgrade
and yeah small content to make feel players the game is constantly updated and taken care of would be a great move from LO, regardless of the update/content size

 

[TheHidden-Tember 142]

NTEC beats OCA consistently between 0m and 5m.

[Lign 361]

4 hours ago, TheHidden-Tember said:

NTEC beats OCA consistently between 0m and 5m.

Yeah, meta ntec before ir3 nerf was a beast in all situations. Ppl who’s saying oca and Oscar are stronger than ntec base on statistic and numbers but not on situations that usually happens in game. I’m not saying Oscar is not op, but for most ppl it’s more enjoyable using ntec, not everyone wants to dance, keep a good firerate and control oscar’s recoil at once if they can just use ntec the gun that doesn’t have recoil at all at low resolution  Edited September 16, 2018 by Lign

[sakafiskafnjak 46]

tl:dr

[GhosT 1301]

[vsb 6171]

holy hell that post length

just going to address the obir points; upcoming patch says improved rifling will now give the obir about 12m of extra range, on top of the standard 5m extra that the obir/obeya are getting as a base (so 17m of extra range)

upcoming patch will will also allow cooling jacket to affect burst interval


 

[Tenginima 74]

In hindsight, my points about the OBIR was a little bit iffy, as I was well aware of LO's intended range buffs. And while I do think they were somewhat fine were they were, changing the rifle range and making so that CJ affects Rifles will make it an actually choice between IR3 Obir and CJ3 Obir.

And bout the OCA and NTEC Situation. In what situation will  the OCA lose to an NTEC? If both players are equally skilled? 

8 hours ago, TheHidden-Tember said:

NTEC beats OCA consistently between 0m and 5m.

[CookiePuss 5378]

Jesus, not even Im bored enough to read all that. 

[Shiggi 27]

nice topic !

I want an official poll from Little Orbit! After all, we are the people who play the game!

[Eisena 86]

I wish you kept your vow of silence.

[magik 184]

Topic about sums up a lot of my own thoughts about the game. Although, I think some weapon changes can be made by the team while the upgrade team work. The question is imo about bringing in non-meta guns back into the pool, not nerfing meta weapons. Weapon balancing is a very fine tuning art, which shouldn’t be based on the casual player. Valve balances CS:GO off of their competitive players and matches. The same applies to Rainbow Six. How can this be applied to apb without having the drastic ill-fated knowledge that most of the players in reality don’t understand. 

I will, however, admit that I’m not expert on the game’s weapons, I’m not a “professional” at this game either. 

[Keshi 436]

never thought i'd read a post longer than a blogpost. but it was a nice post.

[Knataz 20]

If u could stop camping with your obir in baylan, that would be great.

[magik 184]

3 hours ago, Keshi said:

never thought i'd read a post longer than a blogpost. but it was a nice post.

Feels like I'm watching (reading) a video (script) from https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8XjmAEDVZSCQjI150cb4QA
 

[Tenginima 74]

5 hours ago, Sergsininia said:

Topic about sums up a lot of my own thoughts about the game. Although, I think some weapon changes can be made by the team while the upgrade team work. The question is imo about bringing in non-meta guns back into the pool, not nerfing meta weapons. Weapon balancing is a very fine tuning art, which shouldn’t be based on the casual player. Valve balances CS:GO off of their competitive players and matches. The same applies to Rainbow Six. How can this be applied to apb without having the drastic ill-fated knowledge that most of the players in reality don’t understand. 

I will, however, admit that I’m not expert on the game’s weapons, I’m not a “professional” at this game either. 

Wonderful reply!

4 hours ago, Knataz said:

If u could stop camping with your obir in baylan, that would be great.

Love you too baby
 

[Lign 361]

14 hours ago, Tenginima said:

In hindsight, my points about the OBIR was a little bit iffy, as I was well aware of LO's intended range buffs. And while I do think they were somewhat fine were they were, changing the rifle range and making so that CJ affects Rifles will make it an actually choice between IR3 Obir and CJ3 Obir.

And bout the OCA and NTEC Situation. In what situation will  the OCA lose to an NTEC? If both players are equally skilled? 

Tell it to these russian jumpshotters

[Puffdragon 131]

Thank you for taking the time to type that up. I'm sure somebody will read it.

[Genobee 143]

You've got a very interesting view on the balance changes. I'll give you that. 

That said I'm split on what I think about it. Some of it makes a lot of sense then out of nowhere you'll jump to saying things like the 'Ursus' is a straight upgrade to the N-TEC. Whereas what I typically hear is that the N-TEC is a more reliable choice. In-fact I rarely see anyone utilizing it that has it anymore. The N-TEC has remained the go to. If your point was to say that it's viewed as being better simply due to rarity, then it wasn't conveyed very well. 

Moving on to what you said about the N-TEC's widespread usage: it isn't just free players utilizing it almost exclusively. A lot of players that own multiple guns find themselves moving back to the N-TEC as their main choice. There's a reason for it. It slams the other guns into the ground then laughs at them. It's a total beast when compared to every other AR. Some come close, yes, but they just can't match it. Cost or difficulty of obtaining things just doesn't factor in with some of the really high skill folks. They've been around long enough to have gotten multiple other options for free or outright bought them. They choose the gun because it is the best.

Your observations about modability and versatility I have to agree on. It ends up being a jack of all trades with very little in terms of downsides. 

Anyways thanks for posting this. Kinda feel like LO isn't getting enough feedback. More discussions on it the better I say. 

[LilyV3 323]

On 9/16/2018 at 2:49 PM, GhosT said:

text 2 speech for your lazy butt.

[Shui 225]

Short summary or gtfo

[Guest]

too bad they listen to silvers ( people with 20 hours who think they know fucking everything about the game )and not players like you~

Edited September 17, 2018 by Guest

[GhosT 1301]

3 hours ago, LilyV3 said:

text 2 speech for your lazy butt.

Sorry, I don't really want to spend 30 minutes listening to some clunky text to speech computer voice.
Seriously though, I've flown over his wall of text, he could've made it way shorter.