Proof Shredder Is Imbalanced

[MartisLTU 265]

22 hours ago, Darkzero3802 said:

This shouldnt be possible with any shottie especially an auto model. id say im 20-30m away here and can 4 shot solo.
https://plays.tv/video/5b86fcb1ba89d4d16b/dat-range-apb-apbreloaded?oreferer=notifications

21 hours ago, Topre said:

 

[B0N3EZ 2]

21 hours ago, SLICKIEM said:

21 hours ago, BXNNXD said:

the shredder has always had its range capabilities, the only thing id say is wrong with it is the incredible forgiveness shotguns have due to current pellet mechanics - but that applies to the category as a whole not just the shredder

What I find funny is how people are picking the Shredder to complain about. It's like they don't worry about a JG 2-shotting them when like 3 pellets hit from each shell. Come on...

In it's range yes, but who really face checks a jg anyway?

[Mightyena 28]

4 hours ago, TheJellyGoo said:

Because availability stays in no relation to sth. qualifying as a crutch?
What you just said is that there is no problem for a gun to be utterly broken as long as its freely available - I point you to my initial post that describes your objection perfectly.

 

What the heck is a "smart gun"?
So when casuals are given tools to cheese out wins over players who are actually putting in the effort they obviously have fun.
But it's a terribly wrong approach. You can't establish your balancing around such things that's why we need (and have) proper classifications for skill groups.
There is a reason why sports have norms and skillgroups. Why should someone worse be allowed to compete with someone better - that would be stupid.

I never said it should have as low as or a lower ttk than other weapons -- in fact, I said that it should be at that .8 ttk (or slightly higher, maybe like .85 or .875)) at all of its' effective ranges, giving it a fighting edge but also being more forgiving. Anyone who can aim will still be  able to out-ttk it with almost any weapon though. This means that the silver paired against a r255 obt veteran perma gold might actually get a few kills instead of getting pissed the fuck off and ragequitting -- that stuff happens all the time, why do you think player retention in this game is so shit? The game caters only to the highest caliber of player, blocking out anyone who hasn't played consistently for a long time. Most of my friends have quit because they get frustrated by never being able to compete.

A smart gun is a gun that has kind of homing capabilities. Most operate like missiles do in military games -- a couple seconds to lock on, followed by homing attacks. Titanfall is a big one for this. All of the smart guns are lower damage than other guns, they just give an option for people who want to be more casual.

Note: I'm not saying that this game should have a "smart gun", but the shredder deserves to be what it was made to be: a more forgiving short to mid ranged weapon, with a slightly higher ttk than either other short OR long range weapons, in most categories.

6 hours ago, Rikard86 said:

• Good TTK
• Versatile
• Easy to use

A weapon, to be properly balanced, should check two elements off this checklist. Most weapons in APB do, some even check only one.

Shredder checks all three.

See above. I never said it was perfect, but people who seem to think that it should be nerfed to the ground like the other shotguns really irk me* -- instead, it should be SLIGHTLY nerfed or have a slightly lower fire rate or something to make it 2 and 3 of your bullet points, I just take issue with people saying "B-BUH IS A SHOTGUN I-IT SHOULD HAVE LITERALLY NO RANGE", when it was designed to be a mid-range shotgun..
You obviously skipped the rest of  my post, where I clearly said that I think it should be nerfed slightly, but it should also have its' niche where it's competitive and versatile for people who aren't gods at aiming yet (or hacking), to give lower tier players an edge against upper tier ones, albeit one that will still result in them losing most of the time against someone super skilled, while also giving them much more ability to fight back and not be completely stomped on, which is frustrating and is part of the reason this game died, then so far has stayed dead.

For the record, I support a re-nerf to shotguns... but not a flat out revert. I like the ramp in damage, where the first pellets do more damage, but I think the curve should be slower, so you need to hit more pellets to do the same damage (but not all of the pellets to do all of the damage), as well as the slight range nerf that they've already put into place for damage control purposes... I just think that the shredder deserves its' place, and not to just be a cookie-cutter sub-par NFAS replacement. The NFAS is our melee weapon, so at least let the Shredder add some variety by being more geared towards range. This game needs new and fresh.

Reverting the changes changes nothing, and this game NEEDS changes. We need to work more on what LO has already put out there, and find ways to shake it up, make the game more inviting and noob friendly than it currently is. Shit, I think a no-slot shredder should be an option from the tutorial perm weapon selector and do as I said: have a bit more range, be more forgiving, but have a higher ttk than most other things within its' range. Now THAT could do some wonders to help bring in new players. Edited August 30, 2018 by Mightyena

[Meizaki 6]

On 8/29/2018 at 11:12 PM, Darkzero3802 said:

This shouldnt be possible with any shottie especially an auto model. id say im 20-30m away here and can 4 shot solo.
https://plays.tv/video/5b86fcb1ba89d4d16b/dat-range-apb-apbreloaded?oreferer=notifications

wtf is that gun lol

[TheJellyGoo 343]

8 hours ago, Mightyena said:

I never said it should have as low as or a lower ttk than other weapons -- in fact, I said that it should be at that .8 ttk (or slightly higher, maybe like .85 or .875)) at all of its' effective ranges, giving it a fighting edge but also being more forgiving. Anyone who can aim will still be  able to out-ttk it with almost any weapon though. This means that the silver paired against a r255 obt veteran perma gold might actually get a few kills instead of getting pissed the fuck off and ragequitting -- that stuff happens all the time, why do you think player retention in this game is so shit? The game caters only to the highest caliber of player, blocking out anyone who hasn't played consistently for a long time. Most of my friends have quit because they get frustrated by never being able to compete.

A smart gun is a gun that has kind of homing capabilities. Most operate like missiles do in military games -- a couple seconds to lock on, followed by homing attacks. Titanfall is a big one for this. All of the smart guns are lower damage than other guns, they just give an option for people who want to be more casual.

Note: I'm not saying that this game should have a "smart gun", but the shredder deserves to be what it was made to be: a more forgiving short to mid ranged weapon, with a slightly higher ttk than either other short OR long range weapons, in most categories.

See above. I never said it was perfect, but people who seem to think that it should be nerfed to the ground like the other shotguns really irk me* -- instead, it should be SLIGHTLY nerfed or have a slightly lower fire rate or something to make it 2 and 3 of your bullet points, I just take issue with people saying "B-BUH IS A SHOTGUN I-IT SHOULD HAVE LITERALLY NO RANGE", when it was designed to be a mid-range shotgun..
You obviously skipped the rest of  my post, where I clearly said that I think it should be nerfed slightly, but it should also have its' niche where it's competitive and versatile for people who aren't gods at aiming yet (or hacking), to give lower tier players an edge against upper tier ones, albeit one that will still result in them losing most of the time against someone super skilled, while also giving them much more ability to fight back and not be completely stomped on, which is frustrating and is part of the reason this game died, then so far has stayed dead.

For the record, I support a re-nerf to shotguns... but not a flat out revert. I like the ramp in damage, where the first pellets do more damage, but I think the curve should be slower, so you need to hit more pellets to do the same damage (but not all of the pellets to do all of the damage), as well as the slight range nerf that they've already put into place for damage control purposes... I just think that the shredder deserves its' place, and not to just be a cookie-cutter sub-par NFAS replacement. The NFAS is our melee weapon, so at least let the Shredder add some variety by being more geared towards range. This game needs new and fresh.

Reverting the changes changes nothing, and this game NEEDS changes. We need to work more on what LO has already put out there, and find ways to shake it up, make the game more inviting and noob friendly than it currently is. Shit, I think a no-slot shredder should be an option from the tutorial perm weapon selector and do as I said: have a bit more range, be more forgiving, but have a higher ttk than most other things within its' range. Now THAT could do some wonders to help bring in new players.

It just isn't enough. A gun balanced around being "more forgiving" needs huge drawbacks. Shredder is an automated hold lmb and turn brain off at this point.
Just thinking about wanting to balance a shotgun for midrange in APB is asking for nightmares. It just doesn't work with the game.
It either will always be with more severe drawbacks or some non-user friendly mechanics to force it into it's niche.

However like I mentioned the goal shouldn't be to balance around guns but to have a working classification for skillgroups. Guns need to be tools that represents a users skill in a balanced way.
Sure given the state the game is in it might be an impossible task so it's sadly a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" since amount of players and distribution are a major criteria for a working system.

I admit I hate the casualization of games and understand that it is what the masses pleases but you cannot let competitive players and casuals compete with each other at the cost of competitiveness integrity. If someone can't compete he has to question himself if PvP is ultimately the wrong mode for him. Not every game can be a BR kindergarten. I understand where you're coming from though.
  Edited August 31, 2018 by TheJellyGoo

[Darkzero3802 611]

On 8/30/2018 at 6:34 PM, Meizaki said:

On 8/29/2018 at 4:12 PM, Darkzero3802 said:

This shouldnt be possible with any shottie especially an auto model. id say im 20-30m away here and can 4 shot solo.
https://plays.tv/video/5b86fcb1ba89d4d16b/dat-range-apb-apbreloaded?oreferer=notifications

wtf is that gun lol

Thats the fabled shredder shotgun

[notHunky 32]

On 8/29/2018 at 8:39 PM, dett2 said:

Shredder Mains - "Shredder is Fine"
yeah maybe it is , only in your head ^^

Ntec mains - "shredder is OP"
Yeah if you try to face tank a shotgun under 20 meters with a weapon which is supposed to be for medium ranges ^^

But speaking seriously here, I've owned a shredder far before it was actually viable and it really does need some change to actually be viable compared to how it was. Right now yes it is OP because of the increased range, increased reliability (due to pellet changes), and increased fire rate.

Let's go back for a moment to evaluate where this weapon was before it was OP. On release, the weapon was supposed to a shotgun to have a bit more range compared to other shotguns, in exchange for having a slower rate of fire and needing to be used in marksman mode for any form of consistency. The problem here was the weapon was never consistent to begin with and would ironically get shredded in close range against other weapons with a far lower TTK.

Right now the range combined with the higher fire rate makes this weapon too effective, but I don't want it to go back to being a shotgun that sucks at being a shotgun. I think it should still have a niche of being an automatic shotgun which reaches out a bit farther than the NFAS, so what if the damage dropoff was made to be the same as the JG (7.5-15 meters without IR3 and 15-25 meters with IR3), but keep the better fire rate it has now? For comparison, the Shredder's range is at 20-40 meters without IR3, and 27.5-47.5 meters with IR3. In testing I could only get it to reliably kill in 3 shots within 27 meters with IR3, and 23 meters with CJ3.

The thing is, even though the CSG has a much lower damage dropoff than the NFAS (which has a dropoff of 10-20 meters), the CSG still performs much better at range than the NFAS because it has a much tighter spread and can land more hits than an NFAS at anything outside of point blank range. I think the Shredder also has this advantage and the 20-40 damage drop off on top of it's already tiny pellet spread is what makes it overkill at the moment.

TL;DR:
Keep the better fire rate, reduce the damage dropoff to the same as a JG/CSG without IR3.

[Darkzero3802 611]

1 hour ago, notHunky said:

Ntec mains - "shredder is OP"
Yeah if you try to face tank a shotgun under 20 meters with a weapon which is supposed to be for medium ranges ^^

But speaking seriously here, I've owned a shredder far before it was actually viable and it really does need some change to actually be viable compared to how it was. Right now yes it is OP because of the increased range, increased reliability (due to pellet changes), and increased fire rate.

Let's go back for a moment to evaluate where this weapon was before it was OP. On release, the weapon was supposed to a shotgun to have a bit more range compared to other shotguns, in exchange for having a slower rate of fire and needing to be used in marksman mode for any form of consistency. The problem here was the weapon was never consistent to begin with and would ironically get shredded in close range against other weapons with a far lower TTK.

Right now the range combined with the higher fire rate makes this weapon too effective, but I don't want it to go back to being a shotgun that sucks at being a shotgun. I think it should still have a niche of being an automatic shotgun which reaches out a bit farther than the NFAS, so what if the damage dropoff was made to be the same as the JG (7.5-15 meters without IR3 and 15-25 meters with IR3), but keep the better fire rate it has now? For comparison, the Shredder's range is at 20-40 meters without IR3, and 27.5-47.5 meters with IR3. In testing I could only get it to reliably kill in 3 shots within 27 meters with IR3, and 23 meters with CJ3.

The thing is, even though the CSG has a much lower damage dropoff than the NFAS (which has a dropoff of 10-20 meters), the CSG still performs much better at range than the NFAS because it has a much tighter spread and can land more hits than an NFAS at anything outside of point blank range. I think the Shredder also has this advantage and the 20-40 damage drop off on top of it's already tiny pellet spread is what makes it overkill at the moment.

TL;DR:
Keep the better fire rate, reduce the damage dropoff to the same as a JG/CSG without IR3.

Pump action shotguns should have a tighter spread vs auto shotties. Slower fire rate but less spread makes them viable and auto shotties are more for spray and prey and a slightly higher distance. Lets remember tho all of this is based off the broken hitreg and once thats fixed all of this is going to change. Any changes should wait untill the hitreg patch is put in the game and we have time to see how the guns r actually supposed to work. For yrs weve had to compensate for the bad hitreg and now well need to relearn alot of stuff.

[VanilleKeks 737]

I don't know how good the hipfire of the shredder is, but I'm fine with a medium range shotty. It essentially is a dog ear for mid range. I do agree that shotties in general are way too forgiving atm though.

[Kat 27]

This is why I haven't logged in in 3 weeks

[Ketog 1031]

While shredder SHOULD be the shotgun with the longest range , i do agree that this is kind of too much , i think it's range should be reduced to 15 meters while starting to have a linear dropoff from 15 to 30 meters .

[notHunky 32]

7 hours ago, Ketog said:

While shredder SHOULD be the shotgun with the longest range , i do agree that this is kind of too much , i think it's range should be reduced to 15 meters while starting to have a linear dropoff from 15 to 30 meters .

Unfortunately from what I’ve tested with friends on OTW, I don’t think this would be quite enough as I’d still be able to 3 shot people at 22 meters with CJ3 just because of how tight the spread is over range and how much over damage this weapon has. We found currently that the base spread of shotguns has a much greater effect on the overall effective range than damage drop off.

For example we tested a shredder with different mods at several distances within 30 meters using a flare gun to measure distance.
- With IR3 the shredder was 3 shotting reliably at around 28 meters 
- unmodified it was about the same.
- With CJ3, the 3 shot range was reduced to around 22 or 23 meters due to the increased spread.

The same effect is even more apparent on the Thumper where aiming causes the pellet spread to be reduced significantly. The damage drop off never changes, but tightening the spread with mechanical choke makes the thing reach out close to 20 meters with 3 shots. Granted I wasn’t able to measure any distances in controlled conditions with the thumper like I was the Shredder, but I noticed a huge difference in fight club.

With this in mind, I’m thinking maybe an alternative suggestion may be needed other than just nerfing the range a bit, so I’d like to suggest a different balance test.

What if we gave the Shredder the same damage drop off as the NFAS (20 - 30 meters), BUT decrease the fire interval to 0.2 and increase the amount of shots to kill to 5 with a decent chunk of over damage while increasing magazine size to 12? That way, it behaves less like a 3 hit wonder gun which can do anything, but it’s still able to kill at 40 meters if you dump 8 to 10 rounds into the enemy?

For an idea of what that translates into, TTK at ranges under 25 meters would be 0.8 at 5 shots to kill, and the TTK at around 30-40ish meters would be 1.4 seconds at 8 shots to kill.

[kukki 27]

Other unbalanced weapons shouldn't be used as a reference in defense of the one unbalanced weapon in question. Shredder is too reliable at too far of a distance, it requires some tweaks.
 

[Poque 25]

Can you imagine how pissed all the silvers,that actually bought that only for the last patch,will be when the weapon will be much more less forgiving?Holly shit we will go back to the TroubleMaker days.
like legit insane 

[Basih 115]

On 8/29/2018 at 10:12 PM, Darkzero3802 said:

This shouldnt be possible with any shottie especially an auto model. id say im 20-30m away here and can 4 shot solo.
https://plays.tv/video/5b86fcb1ba89d4d16b/dat-range-apb-apbreloaded?oreferer=notifications

More importantly... what is that song? It's stuck in my head now 

[Too_many_snowflakes 80]

On 8/29/2018 at 1:18 PM, SLICKIEM said:

you could say the same thing about the OSCAR. it's really good in closerange, and has better ttk than Shredder at those ranges if you are accurate. Shredder is fine

The OSCAR shoots BULLETS....  Not shotshells.  

 

Edited September 3, 2018 by TrinityFSB

[TheJellyGoo 343]

3 hours ago, Basih said:

More importantly... what is that song? It's stuck in my head now 

Burn It Down by Linkin Park

[Noob_Guardian 417]

Clearly we have a bunch of players who know nothing of how a weapon is supposed to be reliable in its range. The ONLY change the shredder needs, is its ROF reverted, which IS happening as LO said, and less pellet forgiveness due to the general shotgun tweak.

Any other changes being suggested is simply because people want to complain that a weapon that was once unreliable within its niche, is too reliable in its niche, so they wish to nerf it to the ground or completely rework it because they feel that a shotgun for some reason shouldn't have special cqc-midrange "niche" capabilities. Because "meh NTEC REEEEEEEEEEEEE".
 

2 hours ago, TrinityFSB said:

The OSCAR shoots BULLETS....  Not shotshells.  

 

Doesn't matter we have a game that nothing makes sense. People run around with guns and legalized explosive weapons in a city. Along with car surfers, jump snipers, and near infinite grenade spam, where you can fall 100m and survive because "logic" modifications. LTL shouldnt be capable of firing past 20m with any logic because its tazer rounds, but they shoot 50-60m anyways.

Oscar is still quite reliable for its niche, and people complain about it alll the time.

 

[Virgil 55]

good ol shredder

longest range of all shotguns by 3x, 85s like all other shotguns (almost no pellets hitting), super mobile, fastest or second fastest reload in game with mp3, king of sub 30m range in all categories, destroys cars with a speed comparable to most AV weapons (faster than a DMR-AV, faster than an ALIG if close and using MP3), can fire it out of car windows too. hahaha

"its balanced"

Edited September 4, 2018 by Virgil

[Noob_Guardian 417]

2 hours ago, Virgil said:

good ol shredder

longest range of all shotguns by 3x, 85s like all other shotguns (almost no pellets hitting), super mobile, fastest or second fastest reload in game with mp3, king of sub 30m range in all categories, destroys cars with a speed comparable to most AV weapons (faster than a DMR-AV, faster than an ALIG if close and using MP3), can fire it out of car windows too. hahaha

"its balanced"

Decrease the pellet overkill and put base ttk to .85 which pushes IR3 to ~93-1s and yes it's then balanced. Got no reason to complain if the weapon hits a rough 1.2s ttk at 30m.

All shotguns melt cars.

Most people dont run MP on shredder, and quite frankly its not even worth using on most guns. EM3 is far more beneficial.
 

[Virgil 55]

24 minutes ago, Noob_Guardian said:

Decrease the pellet overkill and put base ttk to .85 which pushes IR3 to ~93-1s and yes it's then balanced. Got no reason to complain if the weapon hits a rough 1.2s ttk at 30m.

All shotguns melt cars.

Most people dont run MP on shredder, and quite frankly its not even worth using on most guns. EM3 is far more beneficial.
 

no shotgun melts like the shredder because its full auto, and instant reload with mp3

really matter of opinion, but, in the circumstances i referenced it is a bit necessary.

stop trolling my dude.

[CookiePuss 5378]

I see one guy who is gonna be mad once they fix the shredder. 

[Fortune Runner 796]

Shouldn't you guys be in the prototype districts then to speed up the data gathering to weapon balance faster then?

[Noob_Guardian 417]

1 hour ago, Virgil said:

no shotgun melts like the shredder because its full auto, and instant reload with mp3

really matter of opinion, but, in the circumstances i referenced it is a bit necessary.

stop trolling my dude.

Wait, because it's full auto? Even if it was semi auto it'd STILL be doing the same shit what nonsense are you talking about. CSG MELTS players atm, Strife litterally 2 shots 90% of the time and melts EVERYTHING, JG melts in CQC. A gun melting has nothing to do with its semi/full auto. It has to do with accuracy and ROF. ROF needs reverted on shredder that WILL balance it. Further decrease its overkill with pellet damage and it stops being so effective at 20-30m, thus fixing most of the issue there and putting it where it should have been originally in effectiveness.

Wouldnt know about instant reload, i got the preset one that's *cough* actually balanced in comparison. In all honesty though I played the shredder as if it WAS semi auto and tap fired because i didn't realize it was full auto for almost a year of having it xD

Destroying vehicles is necessary? Destroying cars doesnt even level up the weapon role, and if you're like me, you don't even bother firing at vehicles unless they are A. Empty Car spawns or B. Car spawns after you teamwiped. If I do end up needing to destroy cars i go alig or osmaw/volcano, because they are actually effective for that in the needed situations far more than shredder. The only other times i shoot a vehicle is when I choose to damage it enough to make the guy hop out to kill em for the weapon role.

Decreasing the pellet overkill from the shotgun buff, and reverting its TTK (increasing it) would effectively put the shredder back in a similar place where it had been before it became "overpowered" through its buff but still be stronger than it had been by actually being effective still, which is what i've been suggesting be done so it doesn't go to "never touch again because COBRA (prebuff) useless." That isn't "trolling", and i've owned the shredder for years and used it a bunch so i know what i'm talking about.

 

Havn't seen anything about hosting an event on Jericho, and most of the time Jericho is dead for the OTW, Last I logged in there were like 3 people on, the time before that 7, before that ~18.
 

1 hour ago, Fortune Runner said:

Shouldn't you guys be in the prototype districts then to speed up the data gathering to weapon balance faster then?

1 hour ago, CookiePuss said:

I see one guy who is gonna be mad once they fix the shredder. 

Depends, is it going to have the same niche but actually remain balanced with its reverted ttk or are they going to nerf it to the ground because people whining that a shotgun shouldn't hit 20-30m with IR3 increasing its ttk to ~1s+?

[Fortune Runner 796]

Just now, Noob_Guardian said:

Depends, is it going to have the same niche but actually remain balanced with its reverted ttk or are they going to nerf it to the ground because people whining that a shotgun shouldn't hit 20-30m with IR3 increasing its ttk to ~1s+?

I don't know either but testing in both districts matters so that we find out what's best  right?