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I don't know what modern games matt scott is talking about but using anything other than exclusive full-screen mode adds input lag.

 

Merged.

 

A8WE6wR.png

matt please don't kill the game anymore

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There seems to be a lot of concern about this proposed change, both on the forums and in game.

There is no chance that LO is unaware of this.

Perhaps we should give them time to respond.

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Just now, CookiePuss said:

There seems to be a lot of concern about this proposed change, both on the forums and in game.

There is no chance that LO is unaware of this.

Perhaps we should give them time to respond.

no we must crucify him now before he has anytime to read and respond. /sarcasm 

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Not only is there increased input lag, but for those using g-sync it runs noticeably worse on borderless windowed games.

Please don't take away exclusive fullscreen.

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I don't notice any difference between windowed and fullscreen.

 

Don't think it's as much of a problem as some people say.

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13 minutes ago, GhosT said:

I don't notice any difference between windowed and fullscreen.

 

Don't think it's as much of a problem as some people say.

because we can afford decent computers probably.

 

 

the only issue window bordless does is increase CPU usage

 

depending on what you have running with the game it can cause issues otherwise there is no real difference

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The video in question shows that vsync is far worse than borderless windowed mode though.
I highly doubt you'll notice any difference with our servers anyway. 
However, that doesn't mean removing the option because of bugs is a valid choice here. 
As always, why not both? As far as I know, most triple AAA games always grant you the option to go exclusive fullscreen mode. 

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9 hours ago, GhosT said:

I don't notice any difference between windowed and fullscreen.

 

Don't think it's as much of a problem as some people say.

I tried to play cs and fortnite back in the days windowed, I felt like my mouse movement is not synced with the game movement. There's a reason why popular shooters still allow to use exclusive fullscreen. 

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Edited by Lign
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16 hours ago, Jonall said:

Not only is there increased input lag, but for those using g-sync it runs noticeably worse on borderless windowed games.

Please don't take away exclusive fullscreen.

I'm not entirely sure how G-Sync works exactly, but let's assume it uses Adaptive Sync and works (somewhat) like Freesync. It just will not work if not in exclusive fullscreen unless the game has received specific support for that (officially supported games).

Unless APB receives specific support by Nvidia or RTG for G-Sync/Freesync support then it will simply not be usable

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5 minutes ago, heelruby said:

I'm not entirely sure how G-Sync works exactly, but let's assume it uses Adaptive Sync and works (somewhat) like Freesync. It just will not work if not in exclusive fullscreen unless the game has received specific support for that (officially supported games).

Unless APB receives specific support by Nvidia or RTG for G-Sync/Freesync support then it will simply not be usable

G-sync works independently and doesn't require any kind of support from the devs (you can even use it on chrome and notepad if you want to).
It does work on borderless just as well as exclusive fullscreen, but frame times and input lag is somewhat less consistent in borderless making it noticeable (i can tell if a game runs in fullscreen or borderless by this alone).

So saying it's a g-sync issue isn't correct, it's just that you notice it that much more if you are using g-sync. If you are running a monitor without it you probably won't notice much of a change if any at all.

 

Call it petty, but i do prefer my games to run at their best and don't see why they should remove exclusive fullscreen. It's a dumb move across the floor and will affect especially lower end pc's.

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Glad someone brought this topic up. I was absolutely baffled by what they wrote in the latest blog post. It's ridiculous to force borderless fullscreen mode onto games. Not only does it provide trash frametimes and trash input lag, G-Sync malfunctions and I'm very sure this game will still be G-Sync heaven even after the EU launch. 
Also, ingame manual frame limiter (that you can type in!) and render scale option plstnxbye.

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32 minutes ago, Jonall said:

G-sync works independently and doesn't require any kind of support from the devs (you can even use it on chrome and notepad if you want to).
It does work on borderless just as well as exclusive fullscreen, but frame times and input lag is somewhat less consistent in borderless making it noticeable (i can tell if a game runs in fullscreen or borderless by this alone).

Oh alright, thanks for the enlightenment lol

I've never used Gsync myself because I don't have the GPU/monitor for that but that would explain why they charge so much for it

33 minutes ago, Jonall said:

So saying it's a g-sync issue isn't correct, it's just that you notice it that much more if you are using g-sync. If you are running a monitor without it you probably won't notice much of a change if any at all.

Well I'm using FreeSync which is the RTG 'equivalent' and I have a dynamic refresh rate counter on my monitor, and FreeSync will work on anything that is running in exclusive fullscreen, and some supported games in windowed (typically AAA games). Even though right now it's totally broken accross the board, it just never worked on APB in windowed/fullscreen window and you can feel the game isn't running as smooth as in fullscreen window and can clearly see the tearing, on top of that increase in input lag.

37 minutes ago, Jonall said:

Call it petty, but i do prefer my games to run at their best and don't see why they should remove exclusive fullscreen. It's a dumb move across the floor and will affect especially lower end pc's.

It's not petty at all, I hope I'll be able to run the game as I currently am as well. Now if it's just temporary as a workaround I can understand, but permanently dropping exclusive fullscreen support really is a bad idea imo

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I readed it yesterday and i was thinking to open a topic about that, but someone else came up before me.

Happy to see peoples actuallty care about this game.

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Hi all,

 

There seems to be some confusion about Full screen mode, so I'll try to clear up the information we are working from, and then we discuss the issue further.

 

There are two forms of Fullscreen - Exclusive and Borderless Windowed.

 

As of DX12, Microsoft is no longer supporting Fullscreen Exclusive. Essentially this is going away whether any of us like it or not.

It is worth pointing out that every game that runs on DX12 has already removed Fullscreen Exclusive and replaced it with a Borderless Windowed version.

Fullscreen Exclusive literally doesn't work in DX12. They just weren't as transparent about it.

 

Microsoft has written a pretty concise explanation of their strategy here: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/demystifying-full-screen-optimizations/

They are basically saying that Fullscreen Optimizations under Windows 10 equalizes the performance between Windowed and Exclusive, which is why they are phasing out Exclusive.

 

For those that don't know, Fullscreen Borderless Windowed mode looks just like Fullscreen Exclusive. It just interacts with the OS differently. 

 

Based on that information, we looked at the distribution of Windows versions across players.

 

Here is what that currently looks like on Steam:

image.png

 

Out of the 95% represented by all Windows versions on Steam, Windows 10 accounts for 85% (so 90% of Windows gamers overall).

 

Even with all of that in mind, I recognize that still leaves 10% running Windows 7 or Windows 8 at a disadvantage because of increased input lag.

I know that up until January 1 2020, Microsoft was still giving away copies of Windows 10, and believe there are still some ways to get a legitimate copy for free - even with a fresh install.

 

But lastly, we are making this change for a specific reason:

 

During playtests, we kept encountering a common crash related to a vague DirectX error where the DX device was "lost". After spending a lot of time researching this, we narrowed the error down to a combination of problems with Fullscreen Exclusive mode. In our last playtest, we had all the players run in some form of windowed mode. That test only had 1-2 crashes down from 25 for the previous test.

 

I don't want to hold back the Open Beta any more than I need to, so for now based on the information at hand, we are going to remove Fullscreen Exclusive.

If the team finds a way to make DX11 Fullscreen Exclusive work without crashing during the Beta, then we'll put that back in.

 

Thanks,

Matt

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16 minutes ago, MattScott said:

Hi all,

 

There seems to be some confusion about Full screen mode, so I'll try to clear up the information we are working from, and then we discuss the issue further.

 

There are two forms of Fullscreen - Exclusive and Borderless Windowed.

 

As of DX12, Microsoft is no longer supporting Fullscreen Exclusive. Essentially this is going away whether any of us like it or not.

Iit is worth pointing out that every game that runs on DX12 has already removed Fullscreen Exclusive and replaced it with a Borderless Windowed version.

Fullscreen Exclusive literally doesn't work in DX12. They just weren't as transparent about it.

 

Microsoft has written a pretty concise explanation of their strategy here: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/demystifying-full-screen-optimizations/

They are basically saying that Fullscreen Optimizations under Windows 10 equalizes the performance between Windowed and Exclusive, which is why they are phasing out Exclusive.

 

Based on that information, we looked at the distribution of Windows versions across players.

 

Here is what that currently looks like on Steam:

image.png

 

Out of the 95% represented by all Windows versions on Steam, Windows 10 accounts for 85% (so 90% of Windows gamers overall).

 

Even with all of that in mind, I recognize that still leaves 10% running Windows 7 or Windows 8 at a disadvantage because of increased input lag.

I know that up until January 1 2020, Microsoft was still giving away copies of Windows 10, and believe there are still some ways to get a legitimate copy for free - even with a fresh install.

 

But lastly, we are making this change for a specific reason:

 

During playtests, we kept encountering a common crash related to a vague DirectX error where the DX device was "lost". After spending a lot of time researching this, we narrowed the error down to a combination of problems with Fullscreen Exclusive mode. In our last playtest, we had all the players run in some form of windowed mode. That test only had 1-2 crashes down from 25 for the previous test.

 

I don't want to hold back the Open Beta any more than I need to, so for now based on the information at hand, we are going to remove Fullscreen Exclusive.

If the team finds a way to make DX11 Fullscreen Exclusive work without crashing during the Beta, then we'll put that back in.

 

Thanks,

Matt

"Iit is worth pointing out that every game that runs on DX12 has already removed Fullscreen Exclusive and replaced it with a Borderless Windowed version."

APB 2.1 (Engine Upgrade 3.5) is DX11.

Or is it DX12 now?

Because you alredy stated you will not work (as of now) to support DX12/Vulkan etc.

 

Or is it that Windows 10 itself removed FSE from DX11 also?

Which i don't think so.

 

Still unclear for me why you are doing this honestly.

Thing is you can't remove anything that doesn't work and takes time, or mid the game would be more empty than how much it is right now.

 

Beta is alredy holded back.

Months/s past since you said that fun joke about weeksTM.

I got that isn't as easy as talking, but if you weren't sure you cannot give out any indication of dates.

So.. since the beta is still work in progress, you have the time, look and find the way to make DX11 FSE to work properly.

 

Nobody asked for it to be removed.

Make a vote or something, can't work always like that where only the company decides what remain and what not inside the game, isn't a small texture hidden out of map, is a feature that is important.

Edited by AlishaAzure

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15 minutes ago, MattScott said:

Snip

My question here though is that, since APB runs on Dx11, Doesn't that post some kind of problem?  Figured a game would need to be on Dx12 to take use of Windows Dx12 features.

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24 minutes ago, SkittyM said:

My question here though is that, since APB runs on Dx11, Doesn't that post some kind of problem?  Figured a game would need to be on Dx12 to take use of Windows Dx12 features.

133fdab0a314af9ffaa4a2080887d458.png

Will see on beta how it works. I had a really bad experience with windowed borderless. Tearing and huge input lag into my mouse movement in AAA games. Not that bad but still not good was an experience in online shooters

Edited by Lign
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40 minutes ago, MattScott said:

Hi all,

 

There seems to be some confusion about Full screen mode, so I'll try to clear up the information we are working from, and then we discuss the issue further.

 

There are two forms of Fullscreen - Exclusive and Borderless Windowed.

 

As of DX12, Microsoft is no longer supporting Fullscreen Exclusive. Essentially this is going away whether any of us like it or not.

It is worth pointing out that every game that runs on DX12 has already removed Fullscreen Exclusive and replaced it with a Borderless Windowed version.

Fullscreen Exclusive literally doesn't work in DX12. They just weren't as transparent about it.

 

Microsoft has written a pretty concise explanation of their strategy here: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/directx/demystifying-full-screen-optimizations/

They are basically saying that Fullscreen Optimizations under Windows 10 equalizes the performance between Windowed and Exclusive, which is why they are phasing out Exclusive.

 

For those that don't know, Fullscreen Borderless Windowed mode looks just like Fullscreen Exclusive. It just interacts with the OS differently. 

 

 

During playtests, we kept encountering a common crash related to a vague DirectX error where the DX device was "lost". After spending a lot of time researching this, we narrowed the error down to a combination of problems with Fullscreen Exclusive mode. In our last playtest, we had all the players run in some form of windowed mode. That test only had 1-2 crashes down from 25 for the previous test.

 

I don't want to hold back the Open Beta any more than I need to, so for now based on the information at hand, we are going to remove Fullscreen Exclusive.

If the team finds a way to make DX11 Fullscreen Exclusive work without crashing during the Beta, then we'll put that back in.

 

Thanks,

Matt

The way it was phrased in the blog post update of the EU, is that you plan on completely removing this feature out of the game, even when it's fully released. I find this crazy for any FPS/TPS game.  Also, just saying it "just interacts differently" is a huge understatement. There are a ton of tests which display the opposite. 
You'll have a lot more people attack you with the "game not feeling ok, input lag, low fps blabla" arguement, be it placebo or not. Not only this, I'm very sure the game performs a lot better with exclusive fullscreen since UE3.5 is very finicky for performance in general.

Also, I don't quite understand the DX12 arguement. How is this relevant to APB if it was never supposed to be on DX12 in the first place? Are you just trying to find a random arguement to remove a feature from the beta and just casually push it like that to live at some point in the future? 

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1 hour ago, MattScott said:

 

During playtests, we kept encountering a common crash related to a vague DirectX error where the DX device was "lost". After spending a lot of time researching this, we narrowed the error down to a combination of problems with Fullscreen Exclusive mode. In our last playtest, we had all the players run in some form of windowed mode. That test only had 1-2 crashes down from 25 for the previous test.

 

I don't want to hold back the Open Beta any more than I need to, so for now based on the information at hand, we are going to remove Fullscreen Exclusive.

If the team finds a way to make DX11 Fullscreen Exclusive work without crashing during the Beta, then we'll put that back in.

Matt, check your Discord PMs when you have a chance. I've provided some extra info that may help the team.

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sooo. what about the cool gamers that dont use 1920x1080? isnt fullscreen borderless forced to your deskto resolution?

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