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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Noob_Guardian said:

Don't pretend that APB had/has a high skill ceiling. Firing an NTEC at .19 intervals isn't a difficult feat. Jump scout and QSing weren't hard, CSG prenerf wasn't hard. Firing an obeya or obir isn't hard. Most weapons aren't "hard" or even "high skill" unless they actually suck, like the ODIN's, the OSCP, the Harbinger, ltl, ISSR-a, and current Tommy gun. The holy trinity aren't hard, oscar and carbine aren't hard. I can't say that I know any weapon that isn't an actual trash tier weapon that can be "high skill"  But i guess that's because actually using them takes more effort and more skill than "meta".

 

Lol, i spent like 2-3k on the game, own most weapons char bound and can use pretty much all of them effectively

There is a high skill ceiling. If they had the old threat system you'd see it more clearly. There is quite a defined line between a casual player, an average player, and a high skill player. Like you said in this post just now no guns are hard to use. But you have to realize there is a difference between using a gun and mastering it. Its like League of legends. Anyone can play a character but not everyone can play it at a pro level.

 

Yes borus you spent 2-3k hours on the game. But have stated you play casually, don't care about winning, and are playing runescape on your phone while doing missions. Therefore you aren't mastering these guns you're just using them efficiently. There is a difference. 

Edited by RespectThis
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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, RespectThis said:

There is a high skill ceiling. If they had the old threat system you'd see it more clearly. There is quite a defined line between a casual player, a average player, and a high skill player. Like you said in this post just now no guns are hard to use. But you have to realize there is a difference between using a gun and mastering it. Its like League of legends. Anyone can play a character but not everyone can play it at a pro level.

 

Yes borus you spent 2-3k hours on the game. But have stated you play casually, don't care about winning, and are playing runescape on your phone while doing missions. Therefore you aren't mastering these guns you're just using them efficiently. There is a difference. 

4718* actually, I stopped trying to play "competitively" for the most part ages ago when my clan fell apart the second time while I had to take a break due to training. I've been solo queuing since with better computer upgrades, that doesn't mean i don't bother winning for the team, I just don't focus on winning as much as I focus on individual actions and trying to have fun. Like ramping right, flanking, or sneaking an objective, maybe setting up my enemies team via distraction for my teamates if I'm not using them as litteral bait. Besides you can't "play competitively" in pugs, it doesn't work lol. It's better to just do whatever and play and try to have fun and try something new than it is to get aggravated by trying too hard and failing because of lack of team coordination. As i've said a lot of times, most players in Jericho don't give me any issues when I play against them, only a small handful of players actually can. When I do bother against them, it's generally only to pull a 1.0+ k/d rather than a win.

 

You can't "play competitively" with solo que and no team coordination. Losing happens, you can't "win" them all, you'll lose because of civilians, civi cars, other players, and a billion other reasons. Yes, I do sometimes do runescape, or scroll through facebook and eat while playing, I've had times where I've chatted in /g or /t for several matches in a row and texted people mid match while playing, while still pulling 16/8 k/d and mvp while doing so using "underpowered weapons" against premades. Hell, i went like 9/2 earlier with NTEC and HB3 w/ snubnose and 8 balls (lel) against 2near max rank golds and a higher rank silver (170+) just to be a meme.

 

Just because I prefer  to  play casually doesn't mean I'm a bad player. It just means I don't put all my focus on winning or using "meta" and running around in a vegas/pio with carspawn and armor lol. Nor does it mean I don't know how to use most weapons.

Edited by Noob_Guardian

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Noob_Guardian said:

You can't "play competitively" with solo que and no team coordination. Losing happens, you can't "win" them all, you'll lose because of civilians, civi cars, other players, and a billion other reasons. Yes, I do sometimes do runescape, or scroll through facebook and eat while playing, I've had times where I've chatted in /g or /t for several matches in a row and texted people mid match while playing, while still pulling 16/8 k/d and mvp while doing so using "underpowered weapons" against premades. Hell, i went like 9/2 earlier with NTEC and HB3 w/ snubnose and 8 balls (lel) against 2 golds near max rank golds and a higher rank silver (170+) just to be a meme.

 

Just because I prefer  to  play casually doesn't mean I'm a bad player. It just means I don't put all my focus on winning or using "meta" and running around in a vegas/pio with carspawn and armor lol.

First off im not sure why you're putting competitive in quotes. Second you most definitely can play competitively solo q. Hence why games have that as an option. League of Legends has a Solo Q option.

 

Didn't say you were a bad player because you're casual. I'm saying you haven't mastered any guns based on your mentality of APB. Which is why guns like the ntec and others seem op when in reality its the players who are putting in the hours to truly master them not just be efficient with them.

Edited by RespectThis

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I just wanna chime in and say that this latest N-TEC nerf shows that some of the underused guns like FAR, Rabid and Frenzy can be incredibly busted.

The game is actually frustrating now, all I see is bad players that could never 1v1 me to save their lives just jump+lean with the FAR and hold LMB. It's funny because I remember people complaining about the N-TEC being too forgiving in close range because it was able to do this, well, what now? And before you ask, yes, I did agree with the jumpshotting nerf (only that one though).

 

Honestly, it's time to rethink this balancing strategy, while I do agree with shifting the meta once in a while like any other game does, making the N-TEC absolutely useless in favor of "hold LMB to kill" type guns is not the way to go. Even if the nerfs on the N-TEC were warranted, at least LO could've looked at its counterparts and see what do they have in common with what got the N-TEC nerfed in the first place.

 

Anyways, I'm just baffled at the game's latest gun balancing and hope that LO starts surveying actually good players for feedback instead of relying on people from the SPCT that think they know what they're on about. Oh, and I couldn't end this one without mentioning that I can't wait for the scout to become 100% accurate while jumpshotting. I'm sure that's a change that some of the SPCTs are actively trying to push for and will probably be in the game soon.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, swft said:

Anyways, I'm just baffled at the game's latest gun balancing and hope that LO starts surveying actually good players for feedback instead of relying on people from the SPCT that think they know what they're on about.

This! I'm not saying that they're all bad but there are a few with a shady past, think they know everything and still think that we forgot. Only one seems to be forgetting, LO.

 

 

Edited by Spy

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Posted (edited)

All fine here, guys. I see no issues whatsoever! N-TEC is totally 100% fine now!

ZGS9Bn9.jpg

 

smfh

Edited by Flaws
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2 hours ago, Spy said:

This! I'm not saying that they're all bad but there are a few with a shady past, think they know everything and still think that we forgot. Only one seems to be forgetting, LO.

If you mean me, I can assure you my voice carries no more weight than yours or anyone else's.

Balance isn't done. Please give your best feedback as LO does read the forums.

That's the best advice I can give.

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8 hours ago, Noob_Guardian said:

Don't pretend that APB had/has a high skill ceiling.

I guess this where I ask how long you've been Gold 10?

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A number of posts had to be removed from the thread as they were taking the topic to an entirely different direction better suited for DM's.

 

Please keep to the topic of weapon balancing and primarily the N-Tec, if that can't be done we will be forced to lock the thread from any further discussion.

 

~@mayii

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Thanks Amayii, not sure how the topic strayed that far....

 

I think flaws pointed out perfectly a lot of issues with all his proof posted, but I haven't seen something proving the other sides argument so I'll take that as a win. 

 

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Flaws said:

All fine here, guys. I see no issues whatsoever! N-TEC is totally 100% fine now!

ZGS9Bn9.jpg

 

smfh

Those reticles look way off, i just went in game and looked at out of mm and in mm accuracy firing and not firing for max bloom to compare and none of the gun's (STAR, NTEC, FAR) reticles look close to those images being shown. Are those prenerf? NTEC images? Mods on the weapons?

 

(Maybe they look off cause my screen size ingame in comparison to the picture, that's my only guess)

 

I did however notice that if your camera is zoomed out more, your reticle shows less accuracy while jumping out of MM than if zoomed in.

 

13 hours ago, CookiePuss said:

I guess this where I ask how long you've been Gold 10?

Dunno, probably 5 years. Not that you can prove me wrong anyways. 🤥

 

 

Edited by Noob_Guardian

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3 hours ago, Noob_Guardian said:

Those reticles look way off, i just went in game and looked at out of mm and in mm accuracy firing and not firing for max bloom to compare and none of the gun's (STAR, NTEC, FAR) reticles look close to those images being shown. Are those prenerf? NTEC images? Mods on the weapons?

 

(Maybe they look off cause my screen size ingame in comparison to the picture, that's my only guess)

 

I did however notice that if your camera is zoomed out more, your reticle shows less accuracy while jumping out of MM than if zoomed in.

 

Dunno, probably 5 years. Not that you can prove me wrong anyways. 🤥

 

 

Ok so he takes pictures of his data that he gained on his own, and you post words of what you supposedly did. Ok. 🙂

 

So desperate that you grasp for straws here.

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Noob_Guardian said:

 Are those prenerf?

 

Dunno, probably 5 years. Not that you can prove me wrong anyways. 🤥

 

 

Lol? why would they be prenerfed?

 

Also you were not Gold 10 for 5 years bud. Let alone 1 year (granted you're probably trolling anyway). You realize that Gold now is nothing compared to Gold 10 then.

Edited by RespectThis

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Posted (edited)
On 6/6/2020 at 8:23 AM, Noob_Guardian said:

Those "crutches" wouldn't even be an issue if people played around them properly. Playing competitive shouldn't mean playing stupid (like sitting in the open on a road). Besides, if people are so competitive what's the issue with "crutch" weapons or tactics like car pushing? If competitive players are so good why are they an issue? They shouldn't be. I don't have issues with atacs, jgs, medusas, nfas's or hvrs. But then again, I pay attention to every enemy location that I can and the timing it takes from point A to B for them, and me, as well as weapon ranges of each person. I "may" only die to carbomb once or twice a match. Once because I push into the vehicle like a dummy, the next time because I wasn't watching my radar while on the road. You'd be hard pressed to have me die consistently to a car bomb, or any explosive that isn't a volcano (while im getting point)

If you're talking about public missions, yes, mostly you don't need to pay attention what weapon your opponent is using. But if you would play arranged missions against high skill players daily or if you're a streamer and gets streamsniped by top tier players you begin noticing on missions where every decision matters, every kills matters that some weapons perform better than other and doesn't take a lot of effort to play with. You can miss 3-4 bullets or even spend the whole magazine on one enemy on public mission with pmg and pretend it's an op weapon but if you face top tier player who uses jg, 1-2 miss and you're dead because shotguns scale much better with higher skill level.

Edited by Lign

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Noob_Guardian said:

Those reticles look way off, i just went in game and looked at out of mm and in mm accuracy firing and not firing for max bloom to compare and none of the gun's (STAR, NTEC, FAR) reticles look close to those images being shown. Are those prenerf? NTEC images? Mods on the weapons?

 

(Maybe they look off cause my screen size ingame in comparison to the picture, that's my only guess)

Those aren't prenerf at all, you can clearly see the butchered N-TEC accuracy here. The screenshots are all taken at 1920x1080 so they are as accurate as it gets. I've overlayed the screenshots and added transparency + made each reticle more visible on top. This is how the guns really are.

 

Mods are exactly the same on all 3 guns: HS3, IR3 because having IR3 shows even more how fucked the situation is, a mod that should make you bloom out a ton, meanwhile here we see something else. Even pre-nerf N-TEC wasn't ever this accurate at max bloom.

 

I can upload one with full sized/non-cropped screenshots but for such a comparison it shouldn't be needed to spot the problem.

 

The problem being that even when something is better than the N-TEC (at the very thing the N-TEC got nerfed for), if the silvers don't cry about it it won't be changed. There's literally a pre-nerf N-TEC in the game and no silver bats an eye because the gun is way less popular and accessible and also because they don't know jack about how the game should be designed and balanced. Its just noobs getting emotional to losing and the first thing they blame is the gun (other than cheats kek), there is literally nothing else to it.

 

A stupid nerf caused by a not-very-smart group of players.

Edited by Flaws
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9 hours ago, Noob_Guardian said:

Dunno, probably 5 years. Not that you can prove me wrong anyways. 🤥

 

 

Damn... you win this round.

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NTEC was never overpowered.

 

It was the gun around which the rest of the game was balanced.

 

And it was fine.

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Flaws said:

Those aren't prenerf at all, you can clearly see the butchered N-TEC accuracy here. The screenshots are all taken at 1920x1080 so they are as accurate as it gets. I've overlayed the screenshots and added transparency + made each reticle more visible on top. This is how the guns really are.

 

Mods are exactly the same on all 3 guns: HS3, IR3 because having IR3 shows even more how fucked the situation is, a mod that should make you bloom out a ton, meanwhile here we see something else. Even pre-nerf N-TEC wasn't ever this accurate at max bloom.

 

I can upload one with full sized/non-cropped screenshots but for such a comparison it shouldn't be needed to spot the problem.

 

The problem being that even when something is better than the N-TEC (at the very thing the N-TEC got nerfed for), if the silvers don't cry about it it won't be changed. There's literally a pre-nerf N-TEC in the game and no silver bats an eye because the gun is way less popular and accessible and also because they don't know jack about how the game should be designed and balanced. Its just noobs getting emotional to losing and the first thing they blame is the gun (other than cheats kek), there is literally nothing else to it.

 

A stupid nerf caused by a not-very-smart group of players.

Odd, I take it you're using marksman mode while jumping then. It took me a little to figure that out, but I do think your screen has to do with it. Mines at 1360/### or so which makes the images look different.

 

You mean the Scoped NTEC?

 

I think if you're talking about the Scoped NTEC, is mostly because you HAVE to stay still, or lose a lot of accuracy with the scoped version. It loses a lot of accuracy that the normal NTEC doesn't while moving, which makes it a bit less powerful. You rarely see scoped, i still have mine and have barely touched it. I won't pretend that leaving the scoped version as it is may or may not be a good/bad design decision, however it is weaker than the normal ntec in a number of situations because of the accuracy loss, and had been generally seen as sub-par, even if it has more base accuracy. People may not know that the scoped is a "unnerfed" version, others do, but movement accuracy does matter a bit to people. Most VET and older players use ntec while moving and strafing/corner peaking moving in mm a lot. As such you would be hard pressed to find them enjoy using the scoped version because "mobility matters". I think the scoped versions had been touched a few times with minor changes but i don't know what exactly had been done to them. Accuracy modifiers perhaps?

 

I won't say that don't I feel there were better ways to nerf the ntec. I don't particularly have an issue with the jump accuracy nerf, most weapons that are designed towards "mid range" have bad jump accuracy. The full bloom may be a tad much, but IR3 also makes that worse because well, i'd simply call that the tradeoff of a great midrange weapon getting more range i suppose (I wish they'd find a different tradeoff for CJ since it does about the same thing). Quite frankly it seems they wanted it to either full auto in cqc 5m-, or burst a little bit/force you to pistol 10m-. Making the STAR/FAR clearly better cqc-mid options, while leaving NTEC as better mid.

 

9 hours ago, Intake said:

NTEC was never overpowered.

 

It was the gun around which the rest of the game was balanced.

 

And it was fine.

APB was never made around the NTEC. People felt that the entire game "should" have been balanced around the NTEC. That's a massive difference. APB was also originally made with MUCH higher TTKs than currently.

 

19 hours ago, Abduct / Devote said:

Ok so he takes pictures of his data that he gained on his own, and you post words of what you supposedly did. Ok. 🙂

 

So desperate that you grasp for straws here.

Uh no, i spent like 20 minutes in game rotating from far, star, and ntec firing, jumping, jump firing, in and out of MM. Yes, he posted pictures, his screen is also massively different from mine as well. He was also using IR3. I wasn't. I used just HS and no mods to figure out why his accuracies were way different. He didn't specify what mods he was using on them only pictures as well.

 

I'm not "grasping" at straws, I was simply trying to connect the dots as to why his "pictures" looked different from  what I had tested. For example, max bloom NTEC for me seemed larger than his image.

Edited by Noob_Guardian
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Noob_Guardian said:

You mean the Scoped NTEC?

Borus dude what? Why would we be talked about the scoped ntec at all? Really? Its been about the base ntec this whole time. Like it always has been. Also why wouldn't he be using marksmen mode while jumping? What ntec player is jumpshotting without adsing? You should have known that the moment flaws pointed it out. Let alone as a "knowledgeable" player...

Edited by RespectThis

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2 hours ago, Noob_Guardian said:

Odd, I take it you're using marksman mode while jumping then. It took me a little to figure that out, but I do think your screen has to do with it. Mines at 1360/### or so which makes the images look different.

 

You mean the Scoped NTEC?

 

I think if you're talking about the Scoped NTEC, is mostly because you HAVE to stay still, or lose a lot of accuracy with the scoped version. It loses a lot of accuracy that the normal NTEC doesn't while moving, which makes it a bit less powerful. You rarely see scoped, i still have mine and have barely touched it. I won't pretend that leaving the scoped version as it is may or may not be a good/bad design decision, however it is weaker than the normal ntec in a number of situations because of the accuracy loss, and had been generally seen as sub-par, even if it has more base accuracy. People may not know that the scoped is a "unnerfed" version, others do, but movement accuracy does matter a bit to people. Most VET and older players use ntec while moving and strafing/corner peaking moving in mm a lot. As such you would be hard pressed to find them enjoy using the scoped version because "mobility matters". I think the scoped versions had been touched a few times with minor changes but i don't know what exactly had been done to them. Accuracy modifiers perhaps?

 

I won't say that don't I feel there were better ways to nerf the ntec. I don't particularly have an issue with the jump accuracy nerf, most weapons that are designed towards "mid range" have bad jump accuracy. The full bloom may be a tad much, but IR3 also makes that worse because well, i'd simply call that the tradeoff of a great midrange weapon getting more range i suppose (I wish they'd find a different tradeoff for CJ since it does about the same thing). Quite frankly it seems they wanted it to either full auto in cqc 5m-, or burst a little bit/force you to pistol 10m-. Making the STAR/FAR clearly better cqc-mid options, while leaving NTEC as better mid.

 

APB was never made around the NTEC. People felt that the entire game "should" have been balanced around the NTEC. That's a massive difference. APB was also originally made with MUCH higher TTKs than currently.

 

Uh no, i spent like 20 minutes in game rotating from far, star, and ntec firing, jumping, jump firing, in and out of MM. Yes, he posted pictures, his screen is also massively different from mine as well. He was also using IR3. I wasn't. I used just HS and no mods to figure out why his accuracies were way different. He didn't specify what mods he was using on them only pictures as well.

 

I'm not "grasping" at straws, I was simply trying to connect the dots as to why his "pictures" looked different from  what I had tested. For example, max bloom NTEC for me seemed larger than his image.

"I'm not grasping at straws" "You mean the Scoped NTEC?"

Bro. That's the definition. Keep it up man.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Noob_Guardian said:

You mean the Scoped NTEC?

What? No, I mean the FAR. Its better than pre-nerf N-TEC at the exact things the N-TEC got nerfed for.

 

https://i.gyazo.com/44b7042ea8e8433c909065bab1aed548.mp4

 

https://i.gyazo.com/2080d6caad86f62c11c3f6c3bcc28dca.mp4

 

https://i.gyazo.com/99ed7e3124a6bf6446ccbcdc6e848dca.mp4

 

And before you pull out your classic argument of "but it can't tap fire as efficiently at range as the N-TEC": Thats argueable but even so, it has all the """issues""" that were a """problem""" on the N-TEC and they're even """worse""" on this gun.

 

The gun not becoming a useless watergun in CQC = issue by your standards.

Edited by Flaws
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Posted (edited)

The latest NTEC nerf made no sense and was completely unnecessary. I could get behind the jump shooting thing if none of the other weapons in the game could hit jumpshots either, but they can. So why can the NTEC not? The extra bloom was completely uncalled for and is by far the worst type of nerf to give to a weapon out of all the possibilities you have. Seriously, stop 'fixing' weapons by adding a bunch of randomness to them. All this does is create situations where 1 player gets away with bs min ttk kills while the other player hits only half the amount of shots required to kill in the same timeframe, even though he is using the same weapon as the other player. 

 

Another problem with this nerf is that the NTEC is now way out of line with the other ARs in the game, as Flaws has already demonstrated in the screenshots above. This brings up another problem, because the NTEC is the only 0.7s TTK AR in the game that is accessible by anyone. The other 2 ARs in the game that can do the same are the FAR and ATAC. Both these weapons can kill enemies in close to that 0.7s mark reliably up to a decent distance. The NTEC used to be somewhat reliable too, but now it is far less reliable than the other 2. The only other option for new players who haven't either spent money, grinded a shit ton of joker tickets or played the christmas event is the STAR, which kills noticeably slower than the other ARs. The FAR is basically just a better STAR with a smaller magazine and is just as good as the pre-nerf NTEC if not even better. Then there is the ATAC which can do almost anything the NTEC could do without having to control for bloom or recoil. 

 

Another argument I see a lot is that people complain that everyone uses the NTEC 'so it has to be OP'. 'Because it is OP' is not the only reason to choose a weapon over the rest. The sound, looks and feel of a gun are also important when it comes to weapon choice. This is also why many people use the default NTEC instead over the reskinned versions. Another factor that determines a player's weapon choice is what weapons they like to use in games other than APB. The AK-47 is a weapon that is very popular in a wide variety games and the NTEC is most similar to it. 

Edited by -Niw
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NTec was gold because it was all around weapon. You were king of the mid you could tap into long and hold your ground in CQC, if given corner you were a true beast. Not to mention jump shooting.

They could address the issues in many ways but all they did was added BLOOOOOOM lots of it.

The meta will shift and the chain of nerfs and more bloom will continue until all that's left are bricks and 8balls, until people will complain about them too.

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1 hour ago, Flaws said:

And before you pull out your classic argument of "but it can't tap fire as efficiently at range as the N-TEC": Thats argueable but even so, it has all the """issues""" that were a """problem""" on the N-TEC and they're even """worse""" on this gun.

Inb4 FAR nerf

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, -Niw said:

The only other option for new players who haven't either spent money, grinded a shit ton of joker tickets or played the christmas event is the STAR.

 

Another argument I see a lot is that people complain that everyone uses the NTEC 'so it has to be OP'. 'Because it is OP' is not the only reason to choose a weapon over the rest. The sound, looks and feel of a gun are also important when it comes to weapon choice. This is also why many people use the default NTEC instead over the reskinned versions. Another factor that determines a player's weapon choice is what weapons they like to use in games other than APB. The AK-47 is a weapon that is very popular in a wide variety games and the NTEC is most similar to it. 

I think alot of people are out of touch with that. I've stated it before but there are only two realistic options. As of currently its the star and a wet paper bag called the ntec. Theres a reason i'm for tuning other ARs to the pre-nerfed ntec. Lets be real. At this moment in time for ARs this is the closest its been to pay to win. ATAC and Far being behind a paywall (apart from JT). Which lets be honest. No new player will have joker tickets or will be willing to pay money. Let alone current players aren't really going out of their way for them.

 

I will never understand myself why people's first (and only) assumption is people use the ntec only because its broken. For starters it isn't broken. It was just a strong and well designed gun. It felt great to use and i feel alot of guns dont bring that to the game. Sure some are unique but nothing has or probably ever will feel as enjoyable. It was a strong gun that people who really enjoyed and mastered it made it look "broken op". As stated prior there is a difference between using a weapon efficiently and mastering it. 

Edited by RespectThis
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