Kewlin

I think citing the Innova playerbase might be stretching a little, not to mention that even then you're saying it's only a bit easier, and only if you're in a full premade in Fin, and mostly while defending at that.

First off, you're implying I never face any good Golds, which is dumb as fuck. Second, I consider balancing the game around FC to be a bad idea, as it doesn't represent the actual game. Still, I've never been afraid of JGs in Asylum: they just aren't good.

I like how they never said that on the forums (unless I missed it, but I'm subbed to Lixil and Matt. . . so. . .)

Wait, where did LO say this?

All I can say is that, from my experience, the JG does not reliably 2-shot, and I'm referring to myself and opposition (INB4 someone tries to pull a "git gud Silver." I'm Gold, so at least my opposition should sometimes have good aim.) Whenever I face a JG I just laugh and fuck them over, but when I'm facing an OCA I sigh at the fact that I need to face one of the easiest and best guns in the game. That's all I can say really. tldr Gib sum shottys mor rang, redo dmg

PLEASE! I used to love this gun but it's just not worth using now TBH.

You can already jump on people's heads? What does a motorcycle have to do with this? I'm confused.

Agreed.

IDK if I'd really even say the NFAS has CQC dominance right now TBH. IDK why, exactly, but it just feels especially awful.

While I agree with the sentiment, I think at this point it'd be better to add a shotgun that did that then to change the other shotguns to having tight spread. I'm totally hyped though whenever I play a game where shotguns have any range at all. Honestly, I've always felt a little proud of anyone who uses the NFAS despite everyone hating it for being a noob gun, with the exception maybe of you-know-who. Maybe that's just nostalgia from back in the day when I played NFAS on my computer that ran APB at like 2 FPS and decals totally fucked my entire screen though. Do you actually find the NFAS annoying in its current state though? I personally find it rather difficult to use.

Bless your soul.

Vendetta was never supposed to be a successor to APB, it was a spinoff.

Feedback boop.

I mean, the JG basically got straight up nerfed, at the very least it needs to be reverted. It's the only gun in the game that without mods has less effective range than the PIG, and it's a primary. Plus, quite honestly, the JG isn't guaranteed to get a 2-shot even within its 7.5m effective range, so I can't say I agree with you that the gun's fine as-is, not to mention calling it "nearly impossible" to min-TTK with the OCA is ridiculous: you just have to be close enough and decent at tracking. Lastly, the JG barely benefits from corners because actually corner camping requires you to have some amount of range, or else your opponent can just rush the corner. I'd be fine with a revert, or I'd be fine with a range buff, but the gun can't get nothing because it's tied for worst gun in the game right now IMO. As I've said, I only want a TTK buff or revert to the JG if it's not OP with my proposed range buff. I appreciate the concern, but I'm not that afraid of the JG becoming horribly overpowered when it currently is so bad. Honestly Axe, I didn't even expect my low quality bait to work; I literally just put it there as a joke. You need to stop my friend: take a chill pill, because this isn't going anywhere. Hold yourself to your own word. P.S. I never said the JG and CSG need a better TTK, and I've said that like a million times to you by now. I'm confused, I feel like you just paraphrased my post and then said you disagree with me? If you read my post, nothing suggested was really a massive overhaul, (though there's a lot, because I suggested changes to all but one shotgun,) and I only want a revert if LO doesn't want to put in the effort to fix the CSG, JG, and NFAS at this moment while they're working on the EU. I like the pellet scaling, they just didn't put in quite the right numbers, and my entire post is about trying to just slightly tweak the damage of shotguns while upping the range on the ones that got their range destroyed. Like you said, requiring IR3 has horrible side effects on both the CSG and JG. It's still a little spooky having you agree with me Ghost.

What? Thanks, it was a fun, albeit somewhat tiresome and stressful post to make. Yes, I believe the OCA should be brought to a half-way point between what it is now and what it was before it was buffed, or perhaps entirely reverted if that's still too good, and the Manic need a nerf as well. I'm not really sure I quite agree with you that the OCA was given its buff to combat shotguns, seeming as in my memory the PMG was the king of close quarters at that time and shotguns were not really meta IMO. Other than that, I honestly think SMGs are in a pretty good place beside maybe the Norseman, but I don't own a norseman so I can't really say for sure. (I'm not counting the C2 and all those guns that fit between SMGs and ARs, that becomes more complicated, and I honestly consider them almost their own class.) Sidenote: I really need to learn to use excel better if I'm ever going to do anything like this again. Lol.

First off, I feel like you meant to quote a different part of my post about the Strife, because the two things you quoted don't contradict each other. Maybe you meant this quote? Would you believe me if I said I half-contradicted myself as a joke? But really, it's also true because as I said the Strife is more of a support gun, so in the same way as you wouldn't compare an ALIG to a CR762 even though they have "the same range," comparing a Strife to a CSG doesn't really work directly because the Strife is intended more for support than anything. However, the CSG and JG are both realistically anti-personnel like SMGs are. Essentially, the JG and OCA, for example, fill very similar roles even though they play differently. To be clear, do you understand the difference between the playstyle and roles/purpose of a gun? What I personally find hilarious is that you're calling me out for contradicting myself, but also complained that the Strife was bad by basically listing the fact that it's different as your reason in the same argument you're saying the CSG and JG need a higher TTK because they're supposed to be entirely different from SMGs. So if I liked how shotguns were just a few months ago I should just not propose we maybe bring them back to the way they were? You're acting like shotguns have always been this way, when this is the only time, at least since G1 took over, that the CSG and JG have had a TTK of over 0.7s. I like shotguns, why in the world do you think I made this thread that took me forever to make if I didn't like shotguns? Why do you think it's your way or the highway? I've been playing this game as long as you or longer, and I've always liked shotguns in this game, sorry if I don't agree with you on what TTK on whether or not it'd be nice if they were brought back to the TTK they've basically always had. I'm aware that shotguns play differently than shotguns, no shit, but for the most part they fill the same ranges and role. Maybe the reason I want to play a CSG instead of an OCA is because it plays differently, and I don't just choose guns based on TTK, did you ever think of that? And maybe I just want them to be competitive again, and currently both of them suck-patootie and are potentially the worst guns in the game. You're basically implying over and over that the one difference between the CSG and JG, and SMGs, is their TTK, and I have no clue why because they've never played the same. You never even said what the other things are that the CSG and JG are better at, lol. And for your information, I prefer gay gameplay: straight gameplay is boring as fuck. It's weird how I'm replying to someone who's disagreeing with me on a thread I made on a forum about APB, it's almost as if forums are made for discussing things, and I came here and posted this thread because I wanted to put forward my thoughts and discuss shotguns. And what of the fact that I'm the only one? What other people do you actually see discussing things on this thread? It shouldn't come as a big surprise that the original poster on a thread is talking in a thread. Not to mention, the 7 people who agreed with me on the pole probably, I don't know, agree with me? Furthermore, why do you think I have over 8,000 forum posts? I like to talk about APB, it has nothing to do with you or your ideas in particular. And I didn't say it was a last desperate move, please, stop reading into shit. I would prefer their RoF be reduced: it doesn't take a genius to see that, but I don't want it to be done if it happens to make the guns OP. Please stop trying to read the lines, there's nothing between the lines. I say what I mean because I have no reason to say anything else, and I say precisely what I mean because I believe that if you aren't going to spend the time to properly write out your thoughts posting on a text-based platform is a waste of time for you and everyone reading what you write. But can you give me a substantial reason why the CSG and JG shouldn't have their RoF reverted if it turns out to not be OP, like I suggested in the original post? It's not like if the JG gets its TTK reverted to 0.68s it'll suddently shoot a single bullet per shot at 125 damage roughly 11 times a second: it'll still be just as different from SMGs as it has been for the entire time APB has been out. You're calling me triggered, but you're the one acting like if the CSG and JG get their RoF increased they'll suddenly become OCAs.

The PDW-57 Kris uses OCA Whisper stats instead of standard OCA stats, so yes, it has a range of 50-55m and a 0.8 crouch modifier.

They weren't too good though, lol, and even if they can land 2-shots reliably that still wouldn't make them OP. The Shredder is a bad example for exactly this reason: the reason the Shredder got its RoF buff reverted is because they buffed the gun into a god-like tier of its own, so of course they reverted some of the buffs, but the CSG and JG were not OP at 0.68s TTK. Give me actual evidence or a real reason that the CSG and JG shot too fast and I might be able to take you seriously, but you keep just saying that they shoot too fast and you want them to feel tactical. 0.68s TTK isn't too fast, the DOW can hit 0.6s easy and it's not OP. "Feeling tactical" is entirely relative to each individual and as such means virtually nothing. What you're saying makes the Strife bad is specifically the whole purpose of the Strife, if you don't want a high TTK shotgun then use a different shotgun: not every gun in APB is made for every person, that's why there's more than one gun in APB. The point of the Strife is hitting hard with a low RoF, it's essentially the N-HVR 762 of close range, just like it's supposed to be. So I'm saying the Strife is in a good spot because it does exactly what it's intended to do, and it does it perfectly. Don't think of the Strife like other shotguns and you might enjoy it, because in a lot of ways it's more of a support weapon than anything else. And honestly? Shotguns and SMGs really fill the same role, 'cause for most practical purposes range is most of what matters, so yeah, I can compare the OCA and CSG just like I can compare the LCR and CR762, because they're relatively interchangeable in a team composition. Shotguns aren't special snowflakes: as far as the META is concerned they're just guns that fill a certain set of ranges, and that's why nobody uses them when SMGs fill those ranges better. And to top it all off, the fact that you're going off on this is hilarious because I specifically said in my post that I'd only reduce their RoF if they still were underpowered, I.E., I didn't even outright say they should get a RoF buff, I just think it should be considered if they still feel underpowered after changes to their range (and damage in the case of the CSG.)

Look, I'm sure you're really great with the TAS20, but it sucks TBH. Sure, I can get kills with it too, I can even go positive with it sometimes, but I could get more kills with a good gun like the OCA or Manic. You don't even know the CSG's TTK, and you didn't even double check it, (It's 0.77s,) like. . . IDK man. Can you give me a reason the gun's should have gotten a RoF nerf actually? You're not giving any real reason, you're just basically saying you have a fetish for punishment. The guns were fine before the TTK nerf, so unless you have a reason they should have the nerf, I'm going to disagree. IMO there needs to be a very substantial reason to actually change the playstyle of a gun that's already existing in a game, and a 0.09s increase in the CSG's TTK was pretty fucking significant.

I guess, but. . . relying entirely on your environment 100% of the time is kinda' shitty, and makes them almost entirely reliant on having a van you can hide behind on huge portions of the map (which only works in 1v1s.) When the assault rifles out-TTK in CQC over shotguns if you don't have control of the environment, it kinda' raises the question of why would you use a shotgun? And it's not just about being good or not, because just like you can put in effort to try and take cover your enemy can put in effort to deny you cover, so a gun requiring cover in CQC, where your enemy has the most control over your position, just sucks. Not to mention that still with pump shotguns, the CSG especially, you need to land every shot well or you're fucked, unlike SMGs. Sure, I'll continue to use shotguns no matter what, just like I use lots of bad guns, but I'd rather shotguns be like, legitimate? And seeming as you rarely saw shotguns back when they were 0.68s, I feel like you'd need to do a full rework of shotguns, and perhaps all weapons within close range, to make shotguns require you to play cover and be legitimate choices.

I'm pretty sure there were several people, like, around half the community, that disagreed with the shotgun changes all along.

Just call the Bully Hunters?

Cool. IDK man, man-bewbs take a lot of effort. Thanks though.

I really can't agree that the DOW behaves completely differently than the NFAS-12, realistically it's virtually the same gun save a few changes, and I have historically used them virtually the same just fine. (And no, I didn't just look at the 1st pellet damage of both guns and think oh shit, the DOW needs a buff! That would be ridiculous. First, The DOW has a 16% tighter spread than the NFAS-12, which I wouldn't really call much tighter. Sure, it's tighter and certainly helps, but let's not forget that the gun not only has a slightly lower RoF, it's semi-auto which makes it more difficult to reach this RoF. Second, high 1st pellet damage and low per ray damage scale is actually better for consistency, especially at longer ranges. Low 1st pellet and high per ray damage scale is only good for overdamage, whereas high 1st pellet and low per ray damage scale gives more damage to shots that land fewer pellets than are necessary to land a kill. Between these two fact, I believe the buffed NFAS-12 could potentially delete the DOW, even at ranges. Lastly, I didn't say that a huge damage buff to the DOW should permanently go to live, I said it should be tried, presumably in a test district. Same goes for the choke, I don't know if 50% would be good, but seeming as 35% feels like it does nothing I'd start by trying out 50%. And let's not forget that it takes 1.2s to shoot 3 shots at the reduced RoF; at that point you could be using the LCR and get the same TTK, not to mention the DOW still has less range than the Shredder and still would have more spread even with 50% reduced spread. Sure, the Ogre's supposed to overwhelm your enemy in CQC, and the ACT-44 is supposed to land shots, but sometimes things just can't be how they're supposed to be, and realistically it would seem the game can't handle the Ogre's RoF. That said, I don't think the Ogre's RoF should be nerfed unless it specifically becomes OP with the changes I suggested, as I'd rather have the gun be reliable and not break the game than have a high RoF, break the game, and not get consistent TTKs. So basically, your claim that my suggestions would make the gun a worse NFAS-12 are ridiculous, because I'm only suggesting its RoF be reduced if it happens to become overpowered, and I never even said I want it reduced to NFAS-12 fire rate. Anyhoo, thanks for the feedback, but I can't agree, and honestly it sounds like you didn't quite understand that what you're taking issue with was suggested with alternatives (or as alternatives) in case of my initial thoughts being wrong.

Yeah, I'm not really feeling emailing support for one emote and the off-chance that they'd transfer a gift I already had on the character it was gifted to to another character.