Let's talk about some fixes everyone knows ought to be done...

[Baru 16]

I never post on the Forums since I usually don't care enough to waste my time typing, but some things are so apparent, and have been for so many years, that I don't understand why they're even still there.

Disclaimer: people are reluctant to change, so barely any change will be ever applauded before it's actually made, but we know some of this things need to be done: 

 

1. the N-tec, since i started playing back in 2012, I remember this gun to be on the top. Always. The csg has had many changes over the years which finally brought it to a good condition. The carabine had its damage per shot reduced bringing it from 6 shots-to-kill to 5. The only weapon which is still (over)used is the ntec. Sure it had its changes (some years ago the meta was HB2, now is IR3), but anyone who had faced a mildly skilled opponent who had an ntec with IR3 knows that there is simply no other gun to match ntec's capabilities: 0m spray, 70m tap (it takes literally 5 minutes of gameplay to learn how to properly tapfire the ntec). 

 

2. the OCA is simply superior to all other smgs, with the PMG on a close 2nd spot and all others far behind

 

3. besides the holy trinity (FBW, AP.45 and the Joker-RFP) the other secondaries are kinda worthless. An example: the yukon, which passed from being simply OP to barely being able to kill in a mag (the Nunavut is almost on point tho), this could be fixed simply by adjusting the hipfire accuracy, which is silly atm

 

4. Anubis? what happened to that gun? It was perfect as it was before

 

5. Silenced weapons: the silencer mod makes no sense, it gives 0 advantages (actually it takes away 1 shot from the mag, and some damage) for the price of a possible CJ3 or IR3. I think the suppressed weapons could find a real use in this game if the silencer had the bonus ability of (for example) not showing in any radar above 40m - and not only the first shots like the Condor. This would make up for the price of a CJ3 or a IR3. Then if 40m makes the suppressed guns overused, adjust it to 50m, or 60m. Until we find the sweet spot.

 

6. LMGs: I know, a good SHAW or Euryale are devastating, but those guns simply aren't used. Anyone could go on Social rn and check player's roles, you'll find out that the lowest role is *always* Machine Gunner, and even by a fair share. Maybe that has a lot to do with the fact that a shaw gameplay is slow: you have always to switch and crouch and stand still, being thus vulnerable to everything - an obir gameplay on the other hand is fast and reactive: you can jump shoot run switch crouch and all of that. My suggestion? Make LMGs usable from a standing position, to see if this at least shakes a little bit that role.

 

You get the point I'm trying to make. All that's needed is a little bit of experience in this game and a tab opened on the Armas Marketplace: you'll see so many weapons in there that will barely be used, and there's a reason for that. They're not competitive, they're simply outclassed in every way, shape or form (tell me honestly the last time you've seen someone with the N-SSW or the Norseman)  

 

Finally: I don't care about this game as much as used to, because I see that changes - even when desperately needed - hardly are made (like the Yukon, which remained broken for so long. Or the IR3 downsides, which were actually intelligent and on spot, but were reversed). So if you disagree constructively on my points okay, but saying that any of them isn't even an issue is to me like being willingly blindfolded: lying knowing it's a lie. 

 

Said that, I wish this game the best of luck, and to all of you a good day.

Regards, Baru

[Keshi 436]

"1: the n-tec"
me: yep this is 1 of those posts again

Edited November 13, 2018 by Keshi

[nikitos5 51]

The strongest advantage of n-tec is the bloom recovery (or accuracy recovery after a shot if you will). I think it sould be reduced. And stabba needs increased damage

Edited November 15, 2018 by nikitos5

[LilyRain 671]

Whenever Kittens discuss Improved Rifling, they bring the argument that in the right hands, the N-tec is not affected by IR's downside..

 

With the fact that the N-tec cools down rather quickly and is terrible outside marksman mode. Using the same argument, I await the day these Kittens will ask to revise Hunting Sight in such a way to hurt the N-tec.

[Baru 16]

39 minutes ago, Keshi said:

"1: the n-tec"
me: yep this is 1 of those posts again

In the pre-fixed-Yukon era

-"the Yukon has to be fixed!"
~"me (a Yukon user enjoying the scores I get because it's unbalanced): yep this is 1 of those posts again"

 

 

23 minutes ago, Lily Rain said:

Whenever Kittens discuss Improved Rifling, they bring the argument that in the right hands, the N-tec is not affected by IR's downside..

 

It actually isn't affected by IR3, since someone who doesn't go full auto never reaches the max bloom - hence never experiences the actual downside of IR3

[LilyRain 671]

5 minutes ago, Baru said:

It actually isn't affected by IR3, since someone who doesn't go full auto never reaches the max bloom - hence never experiences the actual downside of IR3

Exactly  

[Baru 16]

25 minutes ago, Lily Rain said:

With the fact that the N-tec cools down rather quickly and is terrible outside marksman mode. Using the same argument, I await the day these Kittens will ask to revise Hunting Sight in such a way to hurt the N-tec.

The problem isn't Hunting Sight, but rather the weapon itself

[LilyRain 671]

3 minutes ago, Baru said:

The problem isn't Hunting Sight, but rather the weapon itself

Yep, figures it would be much easier to modify the weapon itself

[AsgerLund 1271]

I'm not saying your opinions about weapons are right or wrong, I just want to say that I don't want LO to do any weapon and/or weapon-mod balancing now or in the foreseeable future, because:

1. They have more important things to focus on
2. They goofed up nearly every change they made. More experience and control over the game code is needed

That being said, your opinion about the N-SSW is wrong.

[Baru 16]

16 minutes ago, AsgerLund said:

I'm not saying your opinions about weapons are right or wrong, I just want to say that I don't want LO to do any weapon and/or weapon-mod balancing now or in the foreseeable future, because:

1. They have more important things to focus on

weapon balance is one of the most important things of a  first person / third person shooter. a team should never focus only on 1 thing and totally leave weapon balance out of their plans

 

18 minutes ago, AsgerLund said:

 

 2. They goofed up nearly every change they made. More experience and control over the game code is needed

experience is gained by doing, if they make a mistake in - say- adjustin ntec's bloom, they can always reverse the change

20 minutes ago, AsgerLund said:

That being said, your opinion about the N-SSW is wrong.

I didn't say anything about the N-SSW, except the fact that isn't used much (which is true, unless you're playing in some server i'm unaware of)
I really love that weapon tho, don't think needs any change (my comment on LMGs was related particularly to SHAW, ALIG, Euryale and their respective reskins, even though the Euryale is already an upgraded SHAW in terms of mobility)

[AsgerLund 1271]

44 minutes ago, Baru said:

weapon balance is one of the most important things of a  first person / third person shooter. a team should never focus only on 1 thing and totally leave weapon balance out of their plans

I agree. Which is why it shouldn't be rushed, done without experience, or done using broken code in a broken engine.

And I never said they should focus on only 1 thing. I said they have more important things to focus on.

44 minutes ago, Baru said:

experience is gained by doing, if they make a mistake in - say- adjustin ntec's bloom, they can always reverse the change

Doing a lot of things wrong and having to reverse them because of inexperience is a poor way of gaining experience.

A much better way would be to learn the game, play the game, get some gameplay experience under the belt. Learn the current meta, understand why the meta is meta, learn how the different weapon classes work, when and where they are used, how they interact with each other, with the environment, with the speed of the game, learn how they counter each-other.

THEN make changes.

44 minutes ago, Baru said:

I didn't say anything about the N-SSW, except the fact that isn't used much (which is true, unless you're playing in some server i'm unaware of)

You heavily implied that the N-SSW is part of the Armas Marketplace weapons that are not used much because they are not competitive and simply outclassed in every way:

2 hours ago, Baru said:

You get the point I'm trying to make. All that's needed is a little bit of experience in this game and a tab opened on the Armas Marketplace: you'll see so many weapons in there that will barely be used, and there's a reason for that. They're not competitive, they're simply outclassed in every way, shape or form (tell me honestly the last time you've seen someone with the N-SSW or the Norseman) 

 

44 minutes ago, Baru said:

I really love that weapon tho

You and me both, homes.

Edited November 13, 2018 by AsgerLund
Clean-up on isle 5

[Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 269]

The issue with making suggestions for and balancing Improved Rifling is that a fair share of people, me included, whether we realise it or not, criminally think of these changes with the ntec in mind

 

If this opinion is wrongly informed, my bad, I apologise in advance

[AxeTurboAgresor 268]

1. N-Tec is F2P mobile middle-range weapon. No sh*t its the first thing everybody puts their hands on. 

I dont even use it, as i prefer FAR or COBR-A, but hey its from Armas. STAR needs a lil bit better bloom recovery. Juuuust a little.

 

6. LMGs. I personaly dont use LMG not cuz of its immobility, but mostly cuz most of them suck at middle range+. Its horizontal recoil is simply terrible and tap firing does not help at all. AND "Rabbit" is hella unaccurate even with HS3 on it, and its range sucks for some reason.

I would say that sitting LMG (SHAW type, not N-SSW or Rabbit) should be the biggest threat.

[LilyRain 671]

11 minutes ago, AxeTurboAgresor said:

STAR needs a lil bit better bloom recovery. Juuuust a little.

^ THIS

[vsb 6171]

LMGs aren’t widely seen because, while very effective when used correctly, it takes a lot of effort to do so

 

the ntec on the other hand has the opposite “problem” of being popular because it’s very easy to use (although being 1/2 of f2p ar options is also a factor imo)

 

just because a gun is easy to use doesn’t mean it’s overpowered, nor does being difficult to use mean a gun is underpowered 

 

obviously there are exceptions to each side (old yukon, norseman series) 

[Syzus 23]

I understand why Baru is upset with the guns, but thats apb meta: Ntec and OCA.

They are powerful weapons, but not Op, you can still counter them.

If they get nerfed then another gun comes in place.

I think the main discussion here is "Do you agree with the current meta?"

 

 

[Havana 216]

Rifleman and pointman is overwhelmingly and by far the roles most ppl have leveled up. 

And of course that goes hand in hand with Oca and NTEC sadly. 

[Drischa 6]

I want to agree with ntec balance changes. It's the weapon I most consistently have trouble dealing with, and I feel it does remove some variety and fun from the game by being so overbearingly popular.

I feel that the extremely good marksmanship modifier (especially with HS3, just 0.2!) coupled with very good bloom recovery and dropoff range make it too consistent at further ranges.

 

You may argue that removing this would be removing 'skill ceiling' by introducing more RNG to the game. I feel that the bloom/weapon inaccuracy is a big balancing factor in this game and should be respected.

 

I feel there are three ways that the gun could be changed to reduce some of the feelings that have been shown to be relatively common in this thread:

Increase the marksmanship modifier, making the gun less accurate at longer ranges (and thus reducing the effectiveness of HS3).

Decrease the effective range (Or introduce a harsher dropoff once the range has been met) to make the gun able to still do dmaage at longer ranges but require more shots to kill.

Increase the bloom recovery delay, making users take more time to ensure their shots are accurate.

 

All three of these would be overkill - I feel the second or third option would be best.

 

Apologies if I just need to 'get gud', I'm just speaking from recent experience and observations of others opinions.

[Haganu 104]

I thought the IR3 nerf was clever, though the downside was overtuned and using a formula containing both a constant and a variable to calculate effective range gain would only confuse the majority of the players. We're playing a game on a PC, we're not having math class.

 

NTEC is way too versatile, and too reliable for how effective the weapon is. You can gimp the gun with reflex sight and still be competitive.

 

OCA also is too reliable for its TTK. OCA's sweet spot was having a slightly higher TTK than the PMG but being more reliable since it has a higher ROF, where the PMG is supposed to be higher risk higher reward, the risk being the slower cyclic rate.

Edited November 14, 2018 by Haganu

[dett2 64]

 

10 hours ago, Syzus said:

I understand why Baru is upset with the guns, but thats apb meta: Ntec and OCA.

They are powerful weapons, but not Op, you can still counter them.

If they get nerfed then another gun comes in place.

I think the main discussion here is "Do you agree with the current meta?"

 

 

This.

N-TEC is versatile yes. But it's not OP.

[NotZombieBiscuit 3146]

Does everyone seem to forget how trash the N-TEC was after the first change back in closed beta of G1? It has not always been top dog, it has been all over the place from trash, to neutral, to good with how many overhauls it has gone through.

 

Also every LMG is good right now. Even ALIG can be crazy. It shuts down vehicles and vehicle objective missions so hard.

Edited November 14, 2018 by NotZombieBiscuit

[Goldtiger 133]

16 hours ago, Baru said:

1. the N-tec, since i started playing back in 2012, I remember this gun to be on the top. Always. The csg has had many changes over the years which finally brought it to a good condition. The carabine had its damage per shot reduced bringing it from 6 shots-to-kill to 5. The only weapon which is still (over)used is the ntec. Sure it had its changes (some years ago the meta was HB2, now is IR3), but anyone who had faced a mildly skilled opponent who had an ntec with IR3 knows that there is simply no other gun to match ntec's capabilities: 0m spray, 70m tap (it takes literally 5 minutes of gameplay to learn how to properly tapfire the ntec). 

The N-TEC is without a doubt overused and pretty unbalanced. It is way more versatile than any other gun in this game. I've always felt like the reason why people are against changing this gun is because it's the only gun that makes leveling up rifleman easy, lmao.

[CookiePuss 5377]

People use the n-tec because it feels good... because using it is fun.

IMO we need more guns like the ntec, not less.

That is, lets make apb MORE fun, not LESS.

 

[shft 74]

1 hour ago, Goldtiger said:

The N-TEC is without a doubt overused and pretty unbalanced. It is way more versatile than any other gun in this game. I've always felt like the reason why people are against changing this gun is because it's the only gun that makes leveling up rifleman easy, lmao.

I really fail to see how the ntec is way more versetile than any other Gun in the game tbh. There are loads of other Guns that can be used in all or close to all ranges like Scout, HVR, Obir, Obeya, Carbine, Oscar, PMG, RFP, Dogear, NSSW, Cobra and I probably missed a bunch more. Bottomline, if you lose with a CQC gun vs Ntec in CQC, you're worse than the   player with Ntec and they would probably kill you with whatever gun they choose to play with regardless.

[Baru 16]

19 hours ago, AxeTurboAgresor said:

1. N-Tec is F2P mobile middle-range weapon. No sh*t its the first thing everybody puts their hands on. 

I dont even use it, as i prefer FAR or COBR-A, but hey its from Armas. STAR needs a lil bit better bloom recovery. Juuuust a little.

 

6. LMGs. I personaly dont use LMG not cuz of its immobility, but mostly cuz most of them suck at middle range+. Its horizontal recoil is simply terrible and tap firing does not help at all. AND "Rabbit" is hella unaccurate even with HS3 on it, and its range sucks for some reason.

I would say that sitting LMG (SHAW type, not N-SSW or Rabbit) should be the biggest threat.

 

18 hours ago, BXNNXD said:

LMGs aren’t widely seen because, while very effective when used correctly, it takes a lot of effort to do so

 

the ntec on the other hand has the opposite “problem” of being popular because it’s very easy to use (although being 1/2 of f2p ar options is also a factor imo)

 

just because a gun is easy to use doesn’t mean it’s overpowered, nor does being difficult to use mean a gun is underpowered 

 

obviously there are exceptions to each side (old yukon, norseman series) 

 

17 hours ago, Syzus said:

I understand why Baru is upset with the guns, but thats apb meta: Ntec and OCA.

They are powerful weapons, but not Op, you can still counter them.

If they get nerfed then another gun comes in place.

I think the main discussion here is "Do you agree with the current meta?"

 

 

Never said OCA was op, simply that is superior to any other smg (compare the oca and the cap40).

7 hours ago, dett2 said:

 

This.

N-TEC is versatile yes. But it's not OP.

the carabine is versatile as well, but can be easily countered easily getting a little bit further away, with the ntec you have to be at 80m with a long range weapon, otherwise it can pretty much laser you. Can't really say that for any other weapon currently

5 hours ago, Triicia/Shhift said:

I really fail to see how the ntec is way more versetile than any other Gun in the game tbh. There are loads of other Guns that can be used in all or close to all ranges like Scout, HVR, Obir, Obeya, Carbine, Oscar, PMG, RFP, Dogear, NSSW, Cobra and I probably missed a bunch more. Bottomline, if you lose with a CQC gun vs Ntec in CQC, you're worse than the   player with Ntec and they would probably kill you with whatever gun they choose to play with regardless.

it is more versatile because it either has more range than the weapons you mentioned, or it has a lower ttk. is this combination that makes it so versatile

19 hours ago, AxeTurboAgresor said:

1. N-Tec is F2P mobile middle-range weapon. No sh*t its the first thing everybody puts their hands on. 

I dont even use it, as i prefer FAR or COBR-A, but hey its from Armas. STAR needs a lil bit better bloom recovery. Juuuust a little.

 

6. LMGs. I personaly dont use LMG not cuz of its immobility, but mostly cuz most of them suck at middle range+. Its horizontal recoil is simply terrible and tap firing does not help at all. AND "Rabbit" is hella unaccurate even with HS3 on it, and its range sucks for some reason.

I would say that sitting LMG (SHAW type, not N-SSW or Rabbit) should be the biggest threat.

there are other f2p mobile middle-range weapons, this is simply the best one right now, by far. it is about the current meta, and how far behind it leaves tier2+ weapons

18 hours ago, BXNNXD said:

LMGs aren’t widely seen because, while very effective when used correctly, it takes a lot of effort to do so

 

the ntec on the other hand has the opposite “problem” of being popular because it’s very easy to use (although being 1/2 of f2p ar options is also a factor imo)

 

just because a gun is easy to use doesn’t mean it’s overpowered, nor does being difficult to use mean a gun is underpowered 

 

obviously there are exceptions to each side (old yukon, norseman series) 

agree about the LMGs, but having 7k+ kills with the shaw, I can say that it isn't that hard to use, it just feels slow because of the way you *have* to use it. 

the star is far easier to use than the ntec but is less used, so isn't about simplicity but about capabilities.