An Open Letter from the APB community

[R3ACT3M 489]

On 1/2/2023 at 4:49 PM, CookiePuss said:

How did longer ttk work? 
Slower RoF?

More shots to kill?

And if it is shots to kill, how would mag size / ammo pool adjusted? Or would it not be?

 

^Just some honest questions that popped into my head. 
 

 

I never played during the rtw era so I would not know how it used to be.

But this is what I was thinking of for making TTK at least a bit longer.

Guns are more accurate but take more shots to kill across all the guns in the game. I feel this would be a lot better solution over trying to nerf all the guns in the game. Because right now you have a lot of guns that have low ttk but because of the accuracy nerfs they were given now take longer kill (generally speaking, I'm fully aware a pro player can still make an NTEC sing and dance and no nerfs will ever change that.)

I just feel like it would be more satisfying for players if death was not always instant in gunfights as they are now. The spawn system can make it really frustrating to have to have to run a long distance just to get kill in less than a second. A video that was posted on the forums once had a really neat quote. That APB makes you FEEL badass. I think the tracers being removed kinda removed that hollywood part of gunfights seeing the bullets fly all over the place. But since gunfights are usually settled really quick this feeling can never really take hold unless you're dominating.

Going off someone else it sounds like G1 thought that a lower ttk was a good idea. Now I'm just speculating but I imagine it was to appeal to the twitch shooter call of duty crowd. I could be wrong but wasn't call of duty huge around that time when G1 took charge? I can only imagine they tried to bring more players in by appealing to that massive audience even though it does not fit the rest of the game.

p.s : im trying to watch some APB (RTW era) footage. It's really hard to tell what the ttk was as most people can't aim as well as i've seen players and myself aim today. But I will say guns generally look more accurate but the TTK looks pretty similar to now. But again it's hard to tell when watching a 480p video in 4:3 with players who don't know all the techs yet.

 

Merged.

 

Here's one thing LO should bring back alongside more data for player's to see.

https://imgur.com/FzfNiNC

It would be nice if similar to battlefield you can see how low you opponents HP was before you died. Also you get to clearly see what the enemy was using in terms of mods. This would help new and veteran players alike to know how close a player was to killing their opponent before they died.

[vsb 6171]

2 hours ago, R3ACT3M said:

very compelling response ill make sure to heavily analyze this before continuing to ever post again

cheaters generally aren't affected by game balance because they have an external advantage - trying to level the playing field by changing stats and game mechanics is treating the symptoms rather than the cause, and nearly always ends up punishing the legitimate players base that's stuck with the changes

[R3ACT3M 489]

2 hours ago, glaciers said:

cheaters generally aren't affected by game balance because they have an external advantage - trying to level the playing field by changing stats and game mechanics is treating the symptoms rather than the cause, and nearly always ends up punishing the legitimate players base that's stuck with the changes

Good argument. I guess what I was thinking more of is game design then. And how to discourage cheating/make it less beneficial if cheaters were to breach the anti-cheat.

[gremlen 18]

22 hours ago, R3ACT3M said:

This is why in APB's case, a lot of guns just need slight buffs. 

No, it won't fix the major problem of apb. It will just change the meta. As I said if FAR will get a buff and appeared to be stronger than ntec then everyone will use it instead of ntec. Same with all other weapons in the same niche. I made an example of csgo because how tough it is to balance a wide variety of choices. Also csgo is an example why longer TTK can hurt attacking side. There's a reason why T side has one shot in a head hitbox meta ak47 while CT has worse damage output and longer ttk on average with m4 choice. There're many situations where attacking side requires to catch milliseconds timings to minttk a defend side as fast as possible. And apb is no exception. Unless LO decides to make an overall rebalance including changing map design and make a proper balance for some spots such as german fortress or waterfront overall. But it requires a huge ton of development and I doubt LO has such resources especially when such balance rework will absolutely go through multiple bad decisions and minor re-tweaks while reaching the best possible solution. It's going to be a dev hell

 

Merged.

 

22 hours ago, R3ACT3M said:

This is exactly what I'm trying to advocate for. The core mechanics for apb's gunplay need to change. Right now the game is in a state where TTK is low like you said ntec has been .7 for years. Many players including myself don't like having to run for 100m dying in ~1sec just to respawn and start it all over again. On top of that most the gun nerfing in APB atm has been around bullet spread. And if this low TTK is so great, how come servers have been dwindling for ages now?

The core mechanics of some weapons need to be changed, not the whole apb's gunplay. Just look at carbine/oscar and obeya/obir pairs. All weapons inside their pairs work differently comparing to their neighbours while keeping the similar rate of popularity among players. Ntec needs the same counterpart with different core mechanic, not the reinvented ntec in FAR/Star/Frenzy.

Edited January 2, 2023 by gremlen

[yourrandomnobody74 106]

1 hour ago, gremlen said:

 Also csgo is an example why longer TTK can hurt attacking side

CS:GO is not a long TTK game. APB in RTW was long-ish TTK game, so was Dirty Bomb. Apex Legends is a prime example how gunplay should handle if you wanna reward the player. Something APB can definitely try and apply to itself.

I will make a big spreadsheet detailing each gun individually how I think balancing guns and mods should be handled (and hopefully understand each stat APB:DB lists, adjusting it accordingly) soon, as you and a few others seem to be big adversaries every time I mention making TTK higher, claiming it'll be the "the doom of APB", when in fact this game has a similar TTK already just fully bloomed into oblivion, making fights inconsistent and feel like water guns in comparison to other shooter games.

6 hours ago, CookiePuss said:

How did longer ttk work? 
Slower RoF?

More shots to kill?

And if it is shots to kill, how would mag size / ammo pool adjusted? Or would it not be?

 

^Just some honest questions that popped into my head. 

Basically the same it did in RTW, but handling it much better, how it should've been in the first place.

You tackle it by either adjusting RoF or more STK (less damage). Of course, you'd adjust mag sizes accordingly But, most importantly, no bloom (or adjusting bloom recovery / blooming after X amount of shots).

As a previous user mentioned, Anubis and OSCP Kommandant are decent examples of good TTK.

For example, guns like the RSA and ACT have good STK, but need a slightly faster RoF (get them to 1.3-1.4s) and (i'll repeat myself) NO BLOOM in ADS.

Edited January 2, 2023 by yourrandomnobody74

[R3ACT3M 489]

2 hours ago, gremlen said:

The core mechanics of some weapons need to be changed, not the whole apb's gunplay.

agreed

I still wouldn't mind having an event where everyone's health is 200. Just to get an idea of how a high ttk would feel to play.

[gremlen 18]

8 hours ago, yourrandomnobody74 said:

CS:GO is not a long TTK game. APB in RTW was long-ish TTK game, so was Dirty Bomb. Apex Legends is a prime example how gunplay should handle if you wanna reward the player. Something APB can definitely try and apply to itself.

The reason why I mentioned CSGO is because how its ttk balanced between both sides. T has on average lower ttk because of higher ak47 damage output and being able to one shot an enemy by a headshot with full armor while CT as a defend side has on average slower ttk and m4 can't one shot an enemy with full armor. I mean that longer ttk will hurt attack side in apb by a lot because many times it relies on tight timings of being able to minttk the defend side that made mistake. With longer ttk defend side will have more forgiving mistakes such as bad aiming at the beginning of a corner peeking or being open for few seconds. The goal of attacking in apb is to out strafe first shots of the enemy at the corner so his spread will drastically inrease and then minttk him before he realizes that he failed his aim. With longer ttk the enemy at the corner will have an advantage if he fails to track you at first shots he can reset his aim and keep landing a lot of shots because with rtw style ttk the weapon will have no spread and high accuracy or he can just hide and run away because he will have over 1 second to react to your actions.

 

I have never touched dirty bomb so can't tell about it but Apex Legends has mechanics that prevent you from benefiting a long ttk because it doesn't have auto-healing mechanic like apb and healing takes a lot of time. In apb fights will take forever till you meet the enemy in cqc situation where neither you nor enemy has an opportunity to run away. 

 

Merged.

 

8 hours ago, yourrandomnobody74 said:

I will make a big spreadsheet detailing each gun individually how I think balancing guns and mods should be handled (and hopefully understand each stat APB:DB lists, adjusting it accordingly) soon, as you and a few others seem to be big adversaries every time I mention making TTK higher, claiming it'll be the "the doom of APB", when in fact this game has a similar TTK already just fully bloomed into oblivion, making fights inconsistent and feel like water guns in comparison to other shooter games.

TTK on paper is not the same as ttk in action. If you make 1 sec average ttk, practicaly it will be around 1.5-2 secs because people won't have a 100% accuracy of tracking. The current bloom was made with a vision of how to put a defend side in a 3rd person shooter into a disadvantage when corner popping or defending from the high ground. With long ttk and better accuracy the only disadvantage will be your personal aim and tracking that you will always be able to reset and try again by hiding and regen. Right now peeking the corner can be so unforgiving especially when the enemy outplayed your first shots and due to the factor of a fast ttk sometimes you react not fast enough to hide and reset the fighting.

 

Merged.

 

8 hours ago, yourrandomnobody74 said:

For example, guns like the RSA and ACT have good STK, but need a slightly faster RoF (get them to 1.3-1.4s) and (i'll repeat myself) NO BLOOM in ADS.

RSA and ACT are both good mid-long range secondaries. Neither STK nor RoF are their problems. You just rarely benefit from this choice comparing to 45ap/fbw because how rare situations are where the mission happens with majorly long range fights and it happens that you're using rsa/act at this time. I would allow players equip these pistols at the same time when equipping a primary weapon. For example if I switch to OCA and RSA they both will be resupplied at the same time not in turn. If I will be able to quickly switch between RSA/ACT and 45ap/fbw while switching a primary weapon I will give rsa/act a try.

Edited January 2, 2023 by gremlen

[Revoluzzer 274]

On 12/31/2022 at 3:46 PM, Nagletz said:

Jeez u guys should get a game analytics job or something, waste of wall texting talent on apb lol

If someone would pay me for this, I might take them up on the offer. Until then, it's just a fun exercise and pretty exclusive to APB, because I spent so much time with it in the past.

 

On 1/2/2023 at 4:21 AM, R3ACT3M said:

with a longer TTK players might actually find themselves being more aggressive rather than more defensive since running into a storm of bullets will actually get you some action vs just dying immediately. Of course clotting agent and kevlar should be balanced around a longer ttk.

Definitely agree. APB heavily punishes risky manoeuvrers at the moment.

 

On 1/2/2023 at 4:21 AM, R3ACT3M said:

I feel like what LO was trying to do, is make it so weapons like the NTEC didn't kill as fast by making it bloom much more aggressively. When instead they should have left it as is, buffed some other rifles and raised the overall health of players. (or reduce damage of guns across the board).

Hard disagree on the "buff other rifles" part. The same argument was made in the past and the same approach also lead to overall TTK getting lower over time.

The N-Tec, imo, needed on simple change: A minimum TTK of 0.75 seconds to bring it into the same range as the STAR. It doesn't sound like a massive change, but it directly tackles the core issue of having the N-Tec kill as fast as dedicated CQC weapons in CQC, faster than other assault rifles at medium range and at times even going toe-to-toe with the Obeya CR within it's own territory.

 

 

On 1/2/2023 at 4:21 AM, R3ACT3M said:

I personally think instead of what LO is trying to do which is make guns bloom more. They should make guns more accurate, but they should take more shots to land in order to actually kill.

I wouldn't increase the required shots to kill across the board, but at least put all guns in a narrower kills per mag range.

The N-Tec has 5 potential kills per mag, while the Joker SR has only 3. This might make sense if the Joker would reload much faster than the N-Tec, but it doesn't.

 

On 1/2/2023 at 4:56 AM, gremlen said:

The problem is that 90% of new weapons were about reinventing the wheel. Cobra is worse carbine but automatic. Ursus is ntec but less stk. Far is basically ntec with slightly worse accuracy at range. SBSR is worse dmr and many other things. You can't balance it right because the core gameplay mechanic of these weapons are the same and the only difference is their stats. If FAR gets a buff and becomes better ntec everyone just switches to it. You can't make people using such core identical weapons on the same rate, people either play far or ntec. There will always be meta.

Definitely agree on this. APB didn't need more weapons, it had a good roster. I don't mind different skins for the same weapon, but they should be selectable like the texture-skins.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Revoluzzer

[R3ACT3M 489]

3 hours ago, Revoluzzer said:

Definitely agree. APB heavily punishes risky manoeuvrers at the moment.

 

So I went sliver inevitably, as trying to be a top player in APB is not fun.

I think really what needs to be changed (not nerfed but gameplay changes) are a lot of the exploits/techs that are in APB. I found that a lot of silvers don't use these techs to give them advantages like a gold player would. Stuff like pop-shooting, moving medium objectives at sprint pace, abusing certain weapons, and going to spots on the map that give an advantage to defending teams by a huge amount. 

I think a slightly longer TTK could be good. But def not super long

[Todesklinge 143]

It is better to ignore the TTK by adding multiple Hitboxes + Armor.

Better aiming and accuracy should be more important than spray and prey.

 

Another thing.

The better a Player is, the weaker weapon he can use to compensate this.

[Noob_Guardian 417]

2 hours ago, Todesklinge said:

It is better to ignore the TTK by adding multiple Hitboxes + Armor.

Better aiming and accuracy should be more important than spray and prey.

 

Another thing.

The better a Player is, the weaker weapon he can use to compensate this.

That's troublesome especially for balance. While adding different hitboxes for arm/leg/foot hits would be interesting if it reduced by a small %, having headshots in APB would be broken af and dumb, especially as you already hit the top of the hitbox, when players are -completely- behind cover.

[gremlen 18]

On 1/7/2023 at 6:00 PM, Revoluzzer said:

but they should be selectable like the texture-skins.

This is exactly what I want. An extra button for a weapon reskin choice near skins button.

 

Merged.

 

On 1/7/2023 at 8:43 PM, Todesklinge said:

Another thing.

The better a Player is, the weaker weapon he can use to compensate this.

The most stupid idea I heard here.

Edited January 7, 2023 by gremlen

[ZoriaDunne 327]

On 12/17/2022 at 12:09 AM, Hexerin said:

Remember back when people laughed others out of the room when they suggested a PvE mode in Overwatch? Then the event Uprising was added, and it was one of the most well received events the game had ever had. Ended up starting a line of PvE content in the game that were all wildly successful.

 

Despite what toxic PvPers try to gaslight people into believing, PvE has a significantly larger consumer base. Additionally, PvE consumers (whether they realize it or not), would love the basic concepts of many PvP type games if there was a PvE version available. Case in point, Uprising.

 

Adding well designed AI opponents as an option, in their own districts so as to prevent any problems with the traditional PvP districts, would see a sizeable resurgence of interest in this game. No, it absolutely would not completely revive it, you'd be an idiot to think it would. However, the game doesn't need revival, it just needs a solid consumer base to keep the lights on.

 

That being said, the keywords there are "well designed AI", which is something Little Orbit couldn't manage by any stretch of imagination. So this is a pipe dream held by people who don't know when to just let go of this title, that has no future anymore (and hasn't for several years).

APB with AI enemies would feel so much fresher, it could even have lore, citizens tired of Criminals and Enforcers fighting for years, decide to "do it themselves" and start taking actions agaisnt both groups.
modifying the city with barricades and turning it into a warzone, no more civillians taking walks like nothing happening. More destroyed enviroment.
Hell, the game could take a 180º turn and add a story mode in 4 group co-op.

[cowhorseman 441]

2 hours ago, ZoriaDunne said:

APB with AI enemies would feel so much fresher, it could even have lore, citizens tired of Criminals and Enforcers fighting for years, decide to "do it themselves" and start taking actions agaisnt both groups.
modifying the city with barricades and turning it into a warzone, no more civillians taking walks like nothing happening. More destroyed enviroment.
Hell, the game could take a 180º turn and add a story mode in 4 group co-op.

would make sense after what. ten years of this game? so ten years of this shit for the civis yea they would take the law into there own hands seeing how the enfos did, and did it poorly seeing how much power the crims still have

 

And pve is more fun seeing how i can honestly do something with some fucktard crying about me killing them or what ever they cry about this night

[NotZombieBiscuit 3146]

2 hours ago, cowhorseman said:

would make sense after what. ten years of this game? so ten years of this shit for the civis yea they would take the law into there own hands seeing how the enfos did, and did it poorly seeing how much power the crims still have

 

And pve is more fun seeing how i can honestly do something with some fucktard crying about me killing them or what ever they cry about this night

That's already the story of APB. Enforcers are just citizens enabled by the CSA.

[CookiePuss 5378]

“Just add bots”

If only it were that easy.

[PingOVER9000 189]

 

enough bullsh*t..

 

just spit the expire date

Edited January 9, 2023 by PingOVER9000

[CookiePuss 5378]

1 hour ago, PingOVER9000 said:

 

enough bullsh*t..

 

just spit the expire date

Do you think that guy has someone to wipe his butt for him or does he just leave it nasty. Cuz no way he can reach himself.

[Revoluzzer 274]

On 1/8/2023 at 1:20 PM, CookiePuss said:

“Just add bots”

If only it were that easy.

 

EZ PZ

Edited January 11, 2023 by Revoluzzer

[TheJellyGoo 343]

[jarko 43]

On 1/11/2023 at 4:05 PM, Revoluzzer said:

 

EZ PZ

No way you are still on the forums long time no see...

[Hexerin 1140]

1 hour ago, jarko said:

No way you are still on the forums long time no see...

Implying any of us can actually escape this hell we love so much.

[Dyrfinna 4]

Just my 2 cents.

 

1. NTEC seems a little too good. Though I don't like ttk extensions, short ttk is one of the main apb attractions for me, so maybe just (even) less accuracy. At least make sure it isn't better than everything else.

2. I hate bunny hopping. Make people put away their guns to jump high or something. It's such a stupid, immersion breaking mechanic.

3. I'd like to see the lore of APB worked out further in some PvE stuff. Hell I'd like to see alot of GTA like mechanics added with the customizability of APB to make it more of a criminal world where the pvp is a central pillar of the game, just not the only pillar.

4. Let us buy (lots more) inventory slots for everything. APB's customizability, another fundamental characteristic, should not be limited by something as banal as slots.

5. More destructability.

6. Building interiors, subways. Perhaps merge the district maps so that player pool is bigger and matchmaking is easier.

7. Faster vehicles, make vehicles better in general but make it possible to shoot ppl in vehicles.

8. New vehicle types: motorcycles, helicopters (though not massively weaponized ones like in GTA), boats

9. Traversal: swimming, base jumping, absailing off buildings, climb almost anything, though slowly,

10. Animations: more (configurable) idle animations. Possibly make it possble to choose between different types of weapon reload anims

 

I guess I could go on for ages. I've always felt that APB had oodles of untapped potential. I've been playing alot more since the 64-bit update and even now I still find the game impressive, the customizations system most of all. Sure, it could use some updates. to textures and 3D, maybe use some more polygons here and there. But, in basis the game, particularly the customization system still impresses me and I struggle to think of another game that allows such massive freedom through a relatively simple interface.

 

Anyhoo, I hope apb has a bright future post 64 bit update.

[NotZombieBiscuit 3146]

12 hours ago, Dyrfinna said:

Just my 2 cents.

 

1. NTEC seems a little too good. Though I don't like ttk extensions, short ttk is one of the main apb attractions for me, so maybe just (even) less accuracy. At least make sure it isn't better than everything else.

2. I hate bunny hopping. Make people put away their guns to jump high or something. It's such a stupid, immersion breaking mechanic.

3. I'd like to see the lore of APB worked out further in some PvE stuff. Hell I'd like to see alot of GTA like mechanics added with the customizability of APB to make it more of a criminal world where the pvp is a central pillar of the game, just not the only pillar.

4. Let us buy (lots more) inventory slots for everything. APB's customizability, another fundamental characteristic, should not be limited by something as banal as slots.

5. More destructability.

6. Building interiors, subways. Perhaps merge the district maps so that player pool is bigger and matchmaking is easier.

7. Faster vehicles, make vehicles better in general but make it possible to shoot ppl in vehicles.

8. New vehicle types: motorcycles, helicopters (though not massively weaponized ones like in GTA), boats

9. Traversal: swimming, base jumping, absailing off buildings, climb almost anything, though slowly,

10. Animations: more (configurable) idle animations. Possibly make it possble to choose between different types of weapon reload anims

 

I guess I could go on for ages. I've always felt that APB had oodles of untapped potential. I've been playing alot more since the 64-bit update and even now I still find the game impressive, the customizations system most of all. Sure, it could use some updates. to textures and 3D, maybe use some more polygons here and there. But, in basis the game, particularly the customization system still impresses me and I struggle to think of another game that allows such massive freedom through a relatively simple interface.

 

Anyhoo, I hope apb has a bright future post 64 bit update.

Sounds like you just wanna play GTA?

[Dyrfinna 4]

40 minutes ago, NotZombieBiscuit said:

Sounds like you just wanna play GTA?

GTA sucks. It does everything that APB does poorly. Of the many things that it does that APB doesn't, yes I'd like to see several in a game with the lore and customizability of APB. But you are wrong in your conclusion that I want to play GTA. GTA's pvp is fundamentally flawed. Now I suppose they could turn that into the APB system and add in APB levels of customizability. That might change things. It would still miss the APB lore though. Bit of a toss up if it would be good enough without it. How about I worry about it after GTA gets APB style combat and customization. That seems safe enough.