Fully reverting IR changes.. and why we tried them in the first place

[BlatMan 708]

3 minutes ago, Kewlin said:

 

First, the ranges of the N-TEC are in that graph, second, range curves haven't been changed since this post, and the Scoped N-TEC recently was changed to use the correct to use the correct range curve with a 50/75 dropoff as mentioned in this post after I and perhaps some other people pointed out that the Scoped N-TEC was using the normal assault rifle 50/70 range curve.

If it's using the regular AR dropoff then I would report it as a bug since it's suppose to use the 50/75M range.

[Kewlin 692]

1 minute ago, MrsHappyPenguin said:

If it's using the regular AR dropoff then I would report it as a bug since it's suppose to use the 50/75M range.

 

Like I said, I already reported it and it got fixed, as Beastie mentioned in those patch notes.

[BlatMan 708]

2 minutes ago, Kewlin said:

 

Like I said, I already reported it and it got fixed, as Beastie mentioned in those patch notes.

Whoops. Read that as if it was borken in the last patch, not fixed. My mistake.

[Frosi 722]

25 minutes ago, BXNNXD said:

hello, please fuck off at your earliest convenience

 

sincerely,

guy who doesnt want gunplay to be slowed down yet again

 

If quick switching was considered broken then why shouldn't reverse quick switching considered broken? I did the math and it comes down to very similar values. Here are the standard values for the guns, using CJ3 and 3PS3 for the HVR.

 

The HVR's time to kill is 1.63 seconds and it's equip time is 0,67 seconds. So in a scenario where you shoot once with the FBW, then switch to the HVR and fire right away it will end up being a 0,83 second time to kill. 

 

Now let's do the same thing with the OBIR. The OBIR's time to kill is 1,20 seconds at a fire interval of 0.050 seconds and the FBW has a 1 second time to kill with a 0,35 second equip time which means that in a scenario in which you burst someone with the OBIR and switch to your FBW right after the TTK is roughly 0,85 seconds. (The final value may also be 0,95 seconds depending on how the fire interval value actually works)

 

In comparison, the OBIR's TTK doesn't half like the HVR did, however, I'd argue that the OBIR reverse quick switching is far more forgiving overall since it has a solid backup plan in case you miss your initial burst and also allows you to miss a shot here and there with your FBW as you try to finish the other player off.

 

I am not telling them to change the OBIR, I was simply mentioning it as an example and went into why it is considered versatile and how to fix it if they wanted to. The reality is that OBIR reverse quick switching is incredibly common in top play on Citadel and basically serves as a replacement for the HVR in case the arranged rules don't allow the HVR to be used. My values I came up with are perfect scenarios and in the HVR one requires a decent amount of luck aswell as it measures it's TTK if fired AS SOON as it's equipped without waiting for accuracy. In case you waited for accuracy the value may be a little closer to 1,1 seconds give or take a little. Also if you think about it, all the guns that already have the delay all deal a very high amount of damage in one shot so it is kind of weird that the OBIR doesn't already have this.

Edited October 20, 2018 by Frosi

[Kewlin 692]

1 minute ago, Frosi said:

~snip~

 

The fact that you're calling original quickswitching reverse quickswitching bothers me. . . a lot.

 

Also, your values for the HVR aren't even the perfect scenario, as the HVR now needs to be scoped in all the way to do full damage, just FYI. Also note that OBIR QSing isn't as reliable as the HVR was because if you miss one bullet in a burst you're a lot worse off. Basically, if you miss a bullet with the OBIR it increases to 1.05s TTK, where you'd be better off just using the FBW, or better yet use the .45 AP and you get a 0.8 TTK.

[Frosi 722]

21 minutes ago, Kewlin said:

 

The fact that you're calling original quickswitching reverse quickswitching bothers me. . . a lot.

 

Also, your values for the HVR aren't even the perfect scenario, as the HVR now needs to be scoped in all the way to do full damage, just FYI. Also note that OBIR QSing isn't as reliable as the HVR was because if you miss one bullet in a burst you're a lot worse off. Basically, if you miss a bullet with the OBIR it increases to 1.05s TTK, where you'd be better off just using the FBW, or better yet use the .45 AP and you get a 0.8 TTK.

How am I it calling original quick switching? I specifically say reverse quick switching whenever I mention the OBIR because in theory that is what you do and that is what players call it. Original Quick switching is secondary to primary, reverse quick switching is primary to secondary.

 

And you've clearly not understood what I was referring to when I said "Perfect". I meant "Perfect" as in LOWEST TTK possible which is what quick switching is all about. And I'm taking the OLD VALUES when damage was not based off accuracy because this was to fix quick switching. 

 

Also yes, if you miss a bullet with the OBIR it increases it to 1.05 but you're not applying the same logic to the HVR, if you miss your shot with the HVR it increases the TTK from 0,83 / 1,1 to 2,45 / 2,72. Going back to the point that the OBIR is far more forgiving.

 

All in all, you've either not read my post properly or just don't understand the scenario. Quick switching used to be an issue, now it is fixed for the HVR atleast. I was applying the logic of why the HVR was considered overpowered while quick switching to the OBIR and it comes down to the same thing. 

Edited October 20, 2018 by Frosi

[Haganu 104]

56 minutes ago, BXNNXD said:

hello, please fuck off at your earliest convenience

 

sincerely,

guy who doesnt want gunplay to be slowed down yet again

I kinda don't mind if gunplay gets slown down, the problem I see with Frosi's suggestion is that it's one of those band-aid fixes that will most likely hurt the game more than that it would do good.

I'm still of the opinion that this game would benefit from at least .2s more TTK on average.

 

13 minutes ago, Frosi said:

How am I calling original quick switching? I specifically say reverse quick switching whenever I mention the OBIR because in theory that is what you do and that is what players call it. Original Quicks witching is secondary to primary, reverse quick switching is primary to secondary.

 

And you've clearly not understood what I was referring to when I said "Perfect". I meant "Perfect" as in LOWEST TTK possible which is what quick switching is all about. And I'm taking the OLD VALUES when damage was not based off accuracy because this was to fix quick switching. 

 

Also yes, if you miss a bullet with the OBIR it increases it to 1.05 but you're not applying the same logic to the HVR, if you miss your shot with the HVR it increases the TTK from 0,83 / 1,1 to 2,45 / 2,72. Going back to the point that the OBIR is far more forgiving.

 

All in all, you've either not read my post properly or just don't understand the scenario. Quick switching used to be an issue, now it is fixed for the HVR atleast. I was applying the logic on why the HVR was considered overpowered while quick switching to the OBIR and it comes down to the same thing. 

Original QS was from shotgun to SNR 850, because back then shotguns like CSG dealt enough damage for SNR 850 to be a quick finisher secondary.

Reverse quickswitching is from Primary to Secondary, when HVR QS came to the light.

Edited October 20, 2018 by Haganu

[Frosi 722]

5 minutes ago, Haganu said:

Original QS was from shotgun to SNR 850, because back then shotguns like CSG dealt enough damage for SNR 850 to be a quick finisher secondary.

Reverse quickswitching is from Primary to Secondary, when HVR QS came to the light.

1

Fair enough, I've been playing for ages and have never heard about Shotgun quick switching being the "Original" quick switching. I knew that Shotgun to Snub is a thing and it also still works but I never heard that it was the initial quick switching since I've rarely ever seen it being used compared to the HVR's quick switching.

Edited October 20, 2018 by Frosi

[Kewlin 692]

38 minutes ago, Frosi said:

How am I it calling original quick switching? I specifically say reverse quick switching whenever I mention the OBIR because in theory that is what you do and that is what players call it. Original Quick switching is secondary to primary, reverse quick switching is primary to secondary.

 

And you've clearly not understood what I was referring to when I said "Perfect". I meant "Perfect" as in LOWEST TTK possible which is what quick switching is all about. And I'm taking the OLD VALUES when damage was not based off accuracy because this was to fix quick switching. 

 

Also yes, if you miss a bullet with the OBIR it increases it to 1.05 but you're not applying the same logic to the HVR, if you miss your shot with the HVR it increases the TTK from 0,83 / 1,1 to 2,45 / 2,72. Going back to the point that the OBIR is far more forgiving.

 

All in all, you've either not read my post properly or just don't understand the scenario. Quick switching used to be an issue, now it is fixed for the HVR atleast. I was applying the logic of why the HVR was considered overpowered while quick switching to the OBIR and it comes down to the same thing. 

 

I will admit that I had a brain fart and fucked up as to the terminology between normal and reverse quickswitching, MB.

 

*EDIT* I brain-farted about brain farting, original quickswitching with the HVR was definitely using the HVR then swapping the FBW, then they added the bolt timer and people just started using the FBW first.

 

As for everything else, you never mentioned you were talking about days of old, nor did you talk in past tense, so I assumed you were talking about the live version? It doesn't seem unreasonable to assume people are talking about APB today, not a month or so ago, lol.

 

And of course I'm not applying the same logic to the HVR, 'cause it only shoots one shot, lol. If you're not on target when you pull the trigger you're fucked whether you're using an HVR or an OBIR, but if someone's in CQC moving fast you still have to track for 0.1s while all three shots go off. Basically, if you would have missed with the HVR, you'd have probably missed all 1-3 bullets with the OBIR in the same scenario anyways, but you don't need to stay on target for 0.1s with the HVR like you do with the OBIR.

 

Please don't attribute misunderstandings to not reading so quickly, it just makes you look like an idiot or an pleasant fellow. Just because we might have slight disagreements or differences in how we see theories playing out in reality doesn't mean one of us can't real.

Edited October 20, 2018 by Kewlin

[vsb 6171]

1 hour ago, Frosi said:

 

If quick switching was considered broken then why shouldn't reverse quick switching considered broken? I did the math and it comes down to very similar values. Here are the standard values for the guns, using CJ3 and 3PS3 for the HVR.

 

The HVR's time to kill is 1.63 seconds and it's equip time is 0,67 seconds. So in a scenario where you shoot once with the FBW, then switch to the HVR and fire right away it will end up being a 0,83 second time to kill. 

 

Now let's do the same thing with the OBIR. The OBIR's time to kill is 1,20 seconds at a fire interval of 0.050 seconds and the FBW has a 1 second time to kill with a 0,35 second equip time which means that in a scenario in which you burst someone with the OBIR and switch to your FBW right after the TTK is roughly 0,85 seconds. (The final value may also be 0,95 seconds depending on how the fire interval value actually works)

 

In comparison, the OBIR's TTK doesn't half like the HVR did, however, I'd argue that the OBIR reverse quick switching is far more forgiving overall since it has a solid backup plan in case you miss your initial burst and also allows you to miss a shot here and there with your FBW as you try to finish the other player off.

 

I am not telling them to change the OBIR, I was simply mentioning it as an example and went into why it is considered versatile and how to fix it if they wanted to. The reality is that OBIR reverse quick switching is incredibly common in top play on Citadel and basically serves as a replacement for the HVR in case the arranged rules don't allow the HVR to be used. My values I came up with are perfect scenarios and in the HVR one requires a decent amount of luck aswell as it measures it's TTK if fired AS SOON as it's equipped without waiting for accuracy. In case you waited for accuracy the value may be a little closer to 1,1 seconds give or take a little. Also if you think about it, all the guns that already have the delay all deal a very high amount of damage in one shot so it is kind of weird that the OBIR doesn't already have this.

my issue with this is that these mechanics are clunky, and feel clunky - imo they go directly against the “simple” gunplay that apb started off with 

 

the obir was already hit with the sprint shooting nerf, which affects obir qs, i don’t see a reason to further change the gun

 

48 minutes ago, Haganu said:

I kinda don't mind if gunplay gets slown down, the problem I see with Frosi's suggestion is that it's one of those band-aid fixes that will most likely hurt the game more than that it would do good.

I'm still of the opinion that this game would benefit from at least .2s more TTK on average.

 

Original QS was from shotgun to SNR 850, because back then shotguns like CSG dealt enough damage for SNR 850 to be a quick finisher secondary.

Reverse quickswitching is from Primary to Secondary, when HVR QS came to the light.

as above, i don’t believe that slowing down gunplay through the use of these clunky mechanics is the way to go

[឴឴឴឴឴឴឴ 23]

1 hour ago, Frosi said:

 

If quick switching was considered broken then why shouldn't reverse quick switching considered broken? I did the math and it comes down to very similar values. Here are the standard values for the guns, using CJ3 and 3PS3 for the HVR.

 

The HVR's time to kill is 1.63 seconds and it's equip time is 0,67 seconds. So in a scenario where you shoot once with the FBW, then switch to the HVR and fire right away it will end up being a 0,83 second time to kill. 

 

Now let's do the same thing with the OBIR. The OBIR's time to kill is 1,20 seconds at a fire interval of 0.050 seconds and the FBW has a 1 second time to kill with a 0,35 second equip time which means that in a scenario in which you burst someone with the OBIR and switch to your FBW right after the TTK is roughly 0,85 seconds. (The final value may also be 0,95 seconds depending on how the fire interval value actually works)

 

In comparison, the OBIR's TTK doesn't half like the HVR did, however, I'd argue that the OBIR reverse quick switching is far more forgiving overall since it has a solid backup plan in case you miss your initial burst and also allows you to miss a shot here and there with your FBW as you try to finish the other player off.

 

I am not telling them to change the OBIR, I was simply mentioning it as an example and went into why it is considered versatile and how to fix it if they wanted to. The reality is that OBIR reverse quick switching is incredibly common in top play on Citadel and basically serves as a replacement for the HVR in case the arranged rules don't allow the HVR to be used. My values I came up with are perfect scenarios and in the HVR one requires a decent amount of luck aswell as it measures it's TTK if fired AS SOON as it's equipped without waiting for accuracy. In case you waited for accuracy the value may be a little closer to 1,1 seconds give or take a little. Also if you think about it, all the guns that already have the delay all deal a very high amount of damage in one shot so it is kind of weird that the OBIR doesn't already have this.

Can N-tec compete with OBIR at range? Yes.
Can OBIR /w added switch timer compete with N-tec in CQC? No.
You want to ruin another great gun but leave overpowered IR3 N-tec untouched.

 

inb4 army of N-tec mains come to downvote and spam "nTeC iS nOt OvErPoWeRed"

[Frosi 722]

1 hour ago, ឴឴឴឴឴឴឴ said:

Can N-tec compete with OBIR at range? Yes.
Can OBIR /w added switch timer compete with N-tec in CQC? No.
You want to ruin another great gun but leave overpowered IR3 N-tec untouched.

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

inb4 army of N-tec mains come to downvote and spam "nTeC iS nOt OvErPoWeRed"

 

Please go ahead and ready the initial post of mine, I am all for nerfing the N-tec because it is too good in CQC due to its low max bloom and fast bloom recovery.

[Lord Cashpoint 269]

When Little Orbit first announced they were looking into changing mods which had no downside I was quite excited - it could have brought more variety to the game.

 

However, no matter how much I tried to look on the bright side of the Improved Rifling changes, I can't help but notice that my inventory is now full of unused Improved Riflings - stripped off various different weapons, from N-tec to Obeya to OBIR. I know you have a number of designers who know the game quite well - but please just look at Heavy Barrel. Any mod which increases your TTK is likely to be dumpstered by the community at large - it's far too much of a risk. (A side note, please think about changing Heavy Barrel - maybe changing it to reduce max bloom instead of bloom per shot). The only weapon in my opinion which benefited from the Improved Rifling changes was the N-tec 7 "Ursus" which became almost like a fully automatic Obeya. What's even worse is that so much work was put into buffing weapons such as the Misery and Cobra, and then you effectively nullified a mod which worked greatly to their benefit.

 

I appreciate that the preset weapons were looked into - and that you tried to think of a solution to fix them. I hope the sheer number of presets you were dealing with emphasised how difficult it can be to balance a mod around different weapon types. Additionally I hope you also saw that other mods also can work without a downside in many circumstances - CJ3 on an Obeya CR 762 has almost downside at all, previously it had only been counterbalanced out by the choice of using IR3. I'm not sure in the future if you will ever consider having different mod downsides for different weapons - it may be the only way of balancing it fairly. 

 

As others have said it will probably be worth looking into the RFP 'Fang'. After the Improved Rifling changes most switched back to the regular version of the secondary, but I can see it being re-equipped once again. Please consider toning this secondary down, as it's far too versatile a weapon. Additionally some people above me have mentioned the OBIR as perhaps a difficult weapon to handle with the changes being reverted - perhaps look into its over damage (Two bursts deals 990 damage), as it allows the weapon to reach far out beyond its normal range. 

 

 

[឴឴឴឴឴឴឴ 23]

32 minutes ago, Frosi said:

Please go ahead and ready the initial post of mine, I am all for nerfing the N-tec because it is too good in CQC due to its low max bloom and fast bloom recovery.

Nonetheless, N-tec and RFP Fang are the first weapons which need urgent rebalance, yet you start with OBIR.

[Frosi 722]

Just now, ឴឴឴឴឴឴឴ said:

Nonetheless, N-tec and RFP Fang are the first weapons which need urgent rebalance, yet you start with OBIR.

Funnily enough, I mentioned both the RFP and N-tec before I mentioned the OBIR in my initial post. I only went into detail about the OBIR due to someone quoting me with a seemingly aggressive post. And on top of that, the OBIR would be the easiest of the 3 to fix as all it would need is a system that is already in the game. Also to note is that both the N-tec and OBIR, if they get nerfed, should get nerfed in the same patch, if you nerf the N-tec but the OBIR stays the same it'll shift more into a reverse quick switching CQC meta with the OBIR. 

 

In the end, I was mentioning current player habits and noted ways on how to fix those if LO wants to.

[឴឴឴឴឴឴឴ 23]

11 minutes ago, Frosi said:

Funnily enough, I mentioned both the RFP and N-tec before I mentioned the OBIR in my initial post. I only went into detail about the OBIR due to someone quoting me with a seemingly aggressive post. And on top of that, the OBIR would be the easiest of the 3 to fix as all it would need is a system that is already in the game. Also to note is that both the N-tec and OBIR, if they get nerfed, should get nerfed in the same patch, if you nerf the N-tec but the OBIR stays the same it'll shift more into a reverse quick switching CQC meta with the OBIR. 

 

In the end, I was mentioning current player habits and noted ways on how to fix those if LO wants to.

Yeah, see it now, sorry. Ctrl+F does wonders when you surf through huge quotes.
I was like REEE MY BABY FFA GETS NERFED BEFORE N-TEC, WTF.

[speee 90]

This lack of direction with weapon balance shows a bigger issue. There seems to be a pattern of making changes, reading feedback from a population that is very divided and doesn't know what it wants/needs, and then apologizing.

I think you could make more effective changes if you would pick a philosophy and stick to it. The players do not dictate the development of the game; That is the job of the developers. Feedback can be good to dial in changes, but if the team doesn't have a philosophy and direction for the game, the feedback you get from the players won't matter. 

[February 22]

Just go back to old ir3(no downside) and let all the bad players cry and be done no need to change the game for them.... adapt or lose simple 

[HighSociety 148]

14 hours ago, SKay said:

2. From this - I feel it'll go back to what it was before: NTEC/OCA meta with no real consideration for other weapons.

dunno if u were playing the last time... IR3 change just changed nothin in N-tec meta... (i play mah N-tec with CJ2 before and after Patch) cuz if u clickshoot N-tec it is not really affected from the IR3 change. But other guns like the pre modded Obir and CSG just were crap!

[DouglasFalcon 125]

Imma not play this game for a while then. I just hate the free 7 metres bonus some weapon get, especially for what concerns NTEC. That weapon is already stupidly powerful enough without having more range in the first place.

34 minutes ago, February said:

Just go back to old ir3(no downside) and let all the bad players cry and be done no need to change the game for them.... adapt or lose simple 

I bet you were one of those fagg*ts complaining about HVR QS lmao

[February 22]

48 minutes ago, DouglasFalcon said:

Imma not play this game for a while then. I just hate the free 7 metres bonus some weapon get, especially for what concerns NTEC. That weapon is already stupidly powerful enough without having more range in the first place.

I bet you were one of those fagg*ts complaining about HVR QS lmao

I actually was one of those "fagg*ts" qsing try again bby

[JohnNighthawk 51]

How can people even dream of complaining about Little Orbit and Matty-boy?

 

This man is literally a godsend.

[Drollin 17]

IR3 still has the increased bloom downside right? (I mean the old IR3, which is making a comeback soon)

What about increasing the bloom even more? 

[Szambi 85]

Gimme tha buffed SWARM with 83.5m drop off range and no fire rate decrease!

[Flaws 1033]

I personally welcome the reversal of Improved Rifling. The way it was tweaked has killed off many weapons in a way (not only the preset-modded ones). I think this is a good step (back?) in the right direction.

 

P.S: Please don't reverse the N-HVR nerf. Or the Yukon nerf, especially not the Yukon nerf lol

Edited October 20, 2018 by Flaws