Rebalancing green mods

[Dopefish 248]

1 hour ago, Nitronik said:

EDIT : Another issue - CA3 tier regeneration with Kevlar & Flak Jacket is a big no-no in my book. Which is why I wouldn't go past CA1-tier default regeneration - you risk making all other health mods too powerful.

Add a regeneration penalty on the mods (to balance them out) and most people would dodge them, returning to the CA only meta

1 hour ago, Nitronik said:

You pretty much said it yourself. CA2 and CA3 at least have some differences that make them worth choosing between each other. But CA1 ?

I'm not concerned about health regen for Flak Jacket, but I do think Kevlar would need testing with the suggested changes to see how it acts during actual gameplay. I wouldn't add custom health drawbacks to the other mods, as they become harder to understand, and it would go against the whole point of making CA3 the default regen.

Yes, I think each mod should be viable, and I tweaked CA1 specifically in my suggestion for that purpose. I agree that its current version is pretty pointless.

41 minutes ago, Lord Cashpoint said:

Plenty of character mods such as Car Surfer and Valzipram Tablets have no downsides at all (along with pretty much every Orange character mod). Clotting Agent 3's advantages are so strong that its downsides are almost entirely discountable. By making CA2 the default, you're helping CA3 not be so much of a must pick - as players will not feel as disadvantaged for choosing alternate green mods. You could make CA3 the default value, arguably we are almost asking for the same idea here - which is that the current regeneration is poorly suited to APB and is holding back the other green mods.

The changes I suggested were meant as something that could be applied immediately, without requiring too much work, or affecting the other mods too much. I still believe that every mod should be looked into and tweaked. There are some drawbacks on how some of those mods are used, like you being exposed without cover on a car roof, or that you're a sitting duck while using ammo resupply. And yes, we're almost asking for the same thing here, just a matter about how its tweaked.

[Poperon 141]

2 hours ago, SLICKIEM said:

Kevlar having damage resistance instead of extra HP makes a lot of sense, like @Szambi posted above. That alone would make Kevlar a competitive green mod.

I support this idea

[TheHidden-Tember 142]

7 minutes ago, Poperon said:

I support this idea

same

[Keshi 436]

3 hours ago, SLICKIEM said:

Kevlar having damage resistance instead of extra HP makes a lot of sense, like @Szambi posted above. That alone would make Kevlar a competitive green mod.

i support this
Hopefully it won't be too tanky tho

[Szambi 85]

I'd just like to point out that the idea of damage resistance was brought up by @Siamsol and I just added my 2 cents on top of it.

[Fortune Runner 796]

16 hours ago, BXNNXD said:

16 hours ago, Fortune Runner said:

clotting agent takes too long to heal? You have med spray use it......

med spray doesnt affect regen time, it just forces regen to start immediately

Exactly. Strategy is a necessary involvement.

[Hexerin 1142]

9 hours ago, Lord Cashpoint said:

This argument is entirely fair, but I feel as if the default regeneration just doesn't fit APB's gameplay at all. It is fairly noticeable when you're fighting LTL weapons - once you've been tagged, you're left vulnerable for a long time.

These two things have nothing to do with each other. Are you even aware of how LTL works?

[Siamsol 31]

All of these arguments to make CA3 replace the default stats are asinine. You do not make something default just because it is meta, that's absurd. That's like if a month ago you said that IR3 can work on any gun, so we should just add 7m to every gun in the game and turn IR3 into the opposite, making it give more accuracy but less range! Ridiculous.

If something is meta, you need to examine why it is meta, not just assume it's the only logical choice. The two biggest reasons for meta choices are: Is it overpowered? Does it have competition?

Kevlar, Flak Jacket, and Fragile all have fitting downsides that properly match their benefits. So it certainly has competition - the other choices aren't useless.

So is CA3 overpowered? Well, look at Crusade's point that CA3 mid-fight healing is effectively free Kevlar. Look at how it enables players to almost ignore health regen mechanics entirely. Look at how its downside (longer time to full heal) is comparatively ignorable (slower speed is big, less grenades is big, lower health is big, slightly longer regen isn't even noticeable to less-experienced players).

If a single aspect of the game is so much better than everything that compare to it, it shouldn't be the default, it should be brought in line with the rest of the game. It's the same reason we should look at what makes the N-Tec so popular and look to balance it with other guns, rather than buffing everything up to N-Tec standard, which is pretty easy to see as a bad idea. This is why LO is looking to add a downside to IR3 - to make it actually balanced, instead of it just being the default choice for everything. CA3 should be treated the same.

Besides, making CA3 default would ruin Kevlar and Fragile. Kevlar would take an hour to full-heal, and Fragile's benefit of getting into cover quickly and quickly healing will be completely destroyed. Stop saying something should be default just because you equipped CA3 when you unlocked it and have never taken it off since.

[Noob_Guardian 418]

20 hours ago, Poperon said:

I think they should, really. We need more chaos and mayhem. Red mods and Shotguns aren't enough.

Don't be limited to green mods, please mess around with purple, blue and orange mods... and don't forget to weaponize civilians with OSMAWs and OPGLs. Amen!

Civilians with osmaws who only fire at crims? Oh yes please!

3 hours ago, Siamsol said:

All of these arguments to make CA3 replace the default stats are asinine. You do not make something default just because it is meta, that's absurd. That's like if a month ago you said that IR3 can work on any gun, so we should just add 7m to every gun in the game and turn IR3 into the opposite, making it give more accuracy but less range! Ridiculous.

If something is meta, you need to examine why it is meta, not just assume it's the only logical choice. The two biggest reasons for meta choices are: Is it overpowered? Does it have competition?

Kevlar, Flak Jacket, and Fragile all have fitting downsides that properly match their benefits. So it certainly has competition - the other choices aren't useless.

So is CA3 overpowered? Well, look at Crusade's point that CA3 mid-fight healing is effectively free Kevlar. Look at how it enables players to almost ignore health regen mechanics entirely. Look at how its downside (longer time to full heal) is comparatively ignorable (slower speed is big, less grenades is big, lower health is big, slightly longer regen isn't even noticeable to less-experienced players).

If a single aspect of the game is so much better than everything that compare to it, it shouldn't be the default, it should be brought in line with the rest of the game. It's the same reason we should look at what makes the N-Tec so popular and look to balance it with other guns, rather than buffing everything up to N-Tec standard, which is pretty easy to see as a bad idea. This is why LO is looking to add a downside to IR3 - to make it actually balanced, instead of it just being the default choice for everything. CA3 should be treated the same.

Besides, making CA3 default would ruin Kevlar and Fragile. Kevlar would take an hour to full-heal, and Fragile's benefit of getting into cover quickly and quickly healing will be completely destroyed. Stop saying something should be default just because you equipped CA3 when you unlocked it and have never taken it off since.

I mean, they did it with the obeya pistol, and i tried for a time to get them to do it to the Ntec/Star as well. Why not just start out with the best rifle AND pistol? Makes far more sense.

Though I do agree a CA3 change would be good for the meta, though I feel flak, Fragile, and Kev could use a slight rework as well. Like flak could not take away that grenade, but rather decrease throw range? (would be interesting) Fragile could honestly use a little more of a speed boost, i'd be fine with testing 18 and 20% increase rather than its current 14?%, and Kev imo needs less of a speed decrease or something different entirely, sure yay you survive 1-2 more bullets... now you're a legitimate sitting duck to die good job.

[Lucidy 21]

On 8/26/2018 at 2:44 PM, Crusade said:

I strongly agree green mods need attention. However, I disagree with buffing non-CA mods first. CA's numbers need to be nerfed. Having health regen start almost immediately after taking damage has always been too much.

Current CA1/2/3 is a reduction of 25%/50%/80% health regen wait time. I would try making it 15%/30%/40% for starters.

And no I don't care if people are upset. The mod is dumb in it's current state, despite it being this way for years. Just because it's always been this way doesn't make it right, yada yada.

Pretty sure CA3 was already nerfed but ok.

[CookiePuss 5382]

Why not start with the best weapons?

You more or less do.
FBW = fucking best weapon
and even the STAR is a beast when used correctly

Edited August 28, 2018 by CookiePuss

[AxeTurboAgresor 268]

CA and Fragile is ok and should not be changed in any way. 
I would chose the different approach to other mods tho:
Kevlar - I have honestly no idea what to change yet so it will not break the game
Flak jacket - make all explosive damage transfer into stamina damage. 

[ChellyBean 200]

I began using Med Spray not too long ago, since its basically activateable CA without the long recovery time.
Figured it would be a good idea to grab another green mod to take its place.
That's when I realized that the other green mods kinda... suck...

[crusade 89]

15 hours ago, Dopefish said:

I think you must have misunderstood my suggestion. The new default would be exactly the same as CA3, and vice versa.

No, I understood the suggestion. I didn't explain what I meant well enough, so I apologize for that. My issue with your suggestion and the Scout is Kevlar 2. Scout struggles against CA3 enough as it is, but having CA3 as default would make hot-swapping to Kev2 quite viable if an enemy is using a Scout. This would render the Scout pretty much useless.

Your new CA3 would be useless as well, because no one uses current default regen over current CA3 right now (if they have it available). Even Med spray wouldn't make it viable. You would lose out on a green mod AND lose CA3. Pretty big problem imo.

Side note: I'm not actually against your suggestion, but I do want to point out the flaws and issues it may cause.

3 hours ago, Lucidy said:

On 8/26/2018 at 4:44 PM, Crusade said:

I strongly agree green mods need attention. However, I disagree with buffing non-CA mods first. CA's numbers need to be nerfed. Having health regen start almost immediately after taking damage has always been too much.

Current CA1/2/3 is a reduction of 25%/50%/80% health regen wait time. I would try making it 15%/30%/40% for starters.

And no I don't care if people are upset. The mod is dumb in it's current state, despite it being this way for years. Just because it's always been this way doesn't make it right, yada yada.

Pretty sure CA3 was already nerfed but ok.

From 90% to 80%? That's what, 0.8 seconds? Not a very big change.

2 hours ago, CookiePuss said:

Why not start with the best weapons?

You more or less do.
FBW = fucking best weapon
and even the STAR is a beast when used correctly

FBW actually used to be the best weapon pre-nerf.
STAR actually is a beast. BloodyManiac was ripping me with it with CJ3. (damn u)

[Dopefish 248]

8 minutes ago, Crusade said:

My issue with your suggestion and the Scout is Kevlar 2. Scout struggles against CA3 enough as it is, but having CA3 as default would make hot-swapping to Kev2 quite viable if an enemy is using a Scout. This would render the Scout pretty much useless.

Ah, then I understand what you mean, and I appreciate the discussion about what flaws it may have.

Kevlar 2 would require ~7 seconds of time to regen to survive the third shot of the scout. Kevlar 3 would require ~5.5 seconds.

[Hexerin 1142]

How would everyone's opinion change on green mod balance if consumables were changed to be yellow mods? Currently, most players try to use their consumables sparingly (especially free players, as consumables don't drop nearly as much for them), this change would encourage them to be used freely throughout every mission.

God, Flak would be amazing...

 

Edited August 28, 2018 by Hexerin

[TheHidden-Tember 142]

2 hours ago, AxeTurboAgresor said:

CA and Fragile is ok and should not be changed in any way. 
I would chose the different approach to other mods tho:
Kevlar - I have honestly no idea what to change yet so it will not break the game
Flak jacket - make all explosive damage transfer into stamina damage. 

If you have no idea how to change kevlar other than a straight buff then it means other mods should be nerfed. Edited August 28, 2018 by TheHidden-Tember

[Dopefish 248]

4 hours ago, Crusade said:

Your new CA3 would be useless as well, because no one uses current default regen over current CA3 right now (if they have it available). Even Med spray wouldn't make it viable. You would lose out on a green mod AND lose CA3. Pretty big problem imo.

Maybe the benefits are too small for reduced healing duration, but I based the suggestion on current CA3 and default regen. I'd be open for tweaking the values further, but it would mean an much more ambitious change. Med spray is seeing little use in the current game, except for the few who doesn't use CA3. But it would be possible to make it more viable by simply making it so that it halves the time it takes to regen (50% regen delay, and 50% regen time) until the next time you take damage or are fully healed.

[AxeTurboAgresor 268]

9 hours ago, TheHidden-Tember said:

If you have no idea how to change kevlar other than a straight buff then it means other mods should be nerfed.

There is no need for nerf, if modification are ok. I dont feel like CA is beein OP.

SO I came back from work and this is my second view:
CA, Fragile = ok
Flak jacket - transfers xx% (80 or so) explosive damage into stamina damage. 
Kevlar: I play witk kevlar 3 a lot and I can say: honestly, there is not much wrong with kevlar. Speed, and regeneration is the real reason of why ppl dont use it too much. If consumable mods was changed into permament, it would be enough of buff for kevlar. Give me cd of 30s for Epinephrine Injector and Med spray. Thats all it rly needs.
The only thing: Kevlar 1 and 2.. its downsides are too harsh:
1 - -5% sprint speed, -5% run speed
2 - -10% sprint speed, -5% run speed

 

[Lucidy 21]

14 hours ago, Crusade said:

 

From 90% to 80%? That's what, 0.8 seconds? Not a very big change.

Kind of a huge change when a lot of premades and people run HVR. Especially in Baylan, seeing as though I refuse to play Asylum now.

Also pretty sure CA3 was a 10 second regen max (originally) upped to 12 seconds.

[Siamsol 31]

14 hours ago, Hexerin said:

How would everyone's opinion change on green mod balance if consumables were changed to be yellow mods? Currently, most players try to use their consumables sparingly (especially free players, as consumables don't drop nearly as much for them), this change would encourage them to be used freely throughout every mission.

God, Flak would be amazing...

 

Half of the consumables being limited in stock is... problematic. Med spray literally changes battles, epinephrine alleviates distant-spawning issues, and the resupply box effectively balances out using brown mods that aren't field suppliers. Running out of any of these puts you at a competitive disadvantage, yet the rest (mobile cover, boom box, satchel charge) are [almost] useless.

It's like playing a JPRG. Sure, I could equip my potions and use them when I'm hurt - or I could just avoid using them and stash up hundreds of them just in case I need them later, even if "later" never comes.

Now, if you could activate consumables as an infinite resource limited by cooldowns, green mods would play differently. Flak Jacket could resupply grenades - at the cost of having an explosive box next to them. Kevlar could use epinephrine to cover short distances better - at the cost of the very same health that it's granted. Fragile with med spray is downright insane - good luck killing a goddamn starfish that's constantly hiding and regenerating limbs. Sure, you can do all of this now, but at the risk of running out of consumables fairly quickly, making the downsides more 'present'. The issue crops up then that the short cooldowns on consumables are so short because it is expected that you won't use it every time it is available, so a permanent version would likely have longer cooldowns, but that would bring the issue around full-circle... Hmmm.

[Kewlin 692]

CA III and II are both balanced and fine.

Fragile is a good mod.

Flak Jacket is extremely good, especially when paired with medspray.

Kevlar II is fine, and III isn't terrible TBH. You could potentially reduce its downside but you can't increase its upside without breaking the game. I think at its core Kevlar doesn't entirely work with APB though.


How about we don't touch things that are already balanced fine. However, if you're going to touch green character mods, please buff the other mods instead of nerfing CA.

People just don't realize that CA is a tradeoff because they're so used to using it all the time. I especially believe CA III is overrated, and think II is probably a better mod, but I use III because I like the playstyle it encourages, and would probably continue to use it even if they doubled the healing time over again.
 

23 hours ago, Noob_Guardian said:

Civilians with osmaws who only fire at crims? Oh yes please! I mean, they did it with the obeya pistol, and i tried for a time to get them to do it to the Ntec/Star as well. Why not just start out with the best rifle AND pistol? Makes far more sense.

Though I do agree a CA3 change would be good for the meta, though I feel flak, Fragile, and Kev could use a slight rework as well. Like flak could not take away that grenade, but rather decrease throw range? (would be interesting) Fragile could honestly use a little more of a speed boost, i'd be fine with testing 18 and 20% increase rather than its current 14?%, and Kev imo needs less of a speed decrease or something different entirely, sure yay you survive 1-2 more bullets... now you're a legitimate sitting duck to die good job.

First off, the NTEC isn't better than the STAR, second, the STAR is the starter gun because it's the best combination of being EXTREMELY easy, and extremely versatile. The NTEC is not as easy of a gun for beginners as the STAR is.

And this is why I hope more than anything honestly, at this point, that LO just doesn't listen to the community. How hard is it to get a few thousand dollars and buy CA III? Not hard.

Not to mention, decreasing throw range would probably be WORSE than decreasing grenade count TBH.

As I've said before, along the same lines as what Brian says, the best change they could do to Kev is making it decrease acceleration instead of speed, that way it would only affect you in combat, as I personally find that the biggest issue with Kev is how much more reliant you are on cars to get from point A to point B.
 

2 hours ago, Siamsol said:

Half of the consumables being limited in stock is... problematic. Med spray literally changes battles, epinephrine alleviates distant-spawning issues, and the resupply box effectively balances out using brown mods that aren't field suppliers. Running out of any of these puts you at a competitive disadvantage, yet the rest (mobile cover, boom box, satchel charge) are [almost] useless.

It's like playing a JPRG. Sure, I could equip my potions and use them when I'm hurt - or I could just avoid using them and stash up hundreds of them just in case I need them later, even if "later" never comes.

Now, if you could activate consumables as an infinite resource limited by cooldowns, green mods would play differently. Flak Jacket could resupply grenades - at the cost of having an explosive box next to them. Kevlar could use epinephrine to cover short distances better - at the cost of the very same health that it's granted. Fragile with med spray is downright insane - good luck killing a goddamn starfish that's constantly hiding and regenerating limbs. Sure, you can do all of this now, but at the risk of running out of consumables fairly quickly, making the downsides more 'present'. The issue crops up then that the short cooldowns on consumables are so short because it is expected that you won't use it every time it is available, so a permanent version would likely have longer cooldowns, but that would bring the issue around full-circle... Hmmm.

While I agree with you that consumables should just be turned into yellow mods. . . in what world is mobile cover useless? And I do agree, yes, the best way to fix green mods quite possibly is, in fact, fixing consumables to become yellow mods.

[Noob_Guardian 418]

5 minutes ago, Kewlin said:

CA III and II are both balanced and fine.

Fragile is a good mod.

Flak Jacket is extremely good, especially when paired with medspray.

Kevlar II is fine, and III isn't terrible TBH. You could potentially reduce its downside but you can't increase its upside without breaking the game. I think at its core Kevlar doesn't entirely work with APB though.


How about we don't touch things that are already balanced fine. However, if you're going to touch green character mods, please buff the other mods instead of nerfing CA.

People just don't realize that CA is a tradeoff because they're so used to using it all the time. I especially believe CA III is overrated, and think II is probably a better mod, but I use III because I like the playstyle it encourages, and would probably continue to use it even if they doubled the healing time over again.
 

First off, the NTEC isn't better than the STAR, second, the STAR is the starter gun because it's the best combination of being EXTREMELY easy, and extremely versatile. The NTEC is not as easy of a gun for beginners as the STAR is.

And this is why I hope more than anything honestly, at this point, that LO just doesn't listen to the community. How hard is it to get a few thousand dollars and buy CA III? Not hard.

Not to mention, decreasing throw range would probably be WORSE than decreasing grenade count TBH.

As I've said before, along the same lines as what Brian says, the best change they could do to Kev is making it decrease acceleration instead of speed, that way it would only affect you in combat, as I personally find that the biggest issue with Kev is how much more reliant you are on cars to get from point A to point B.
 
While I agree with you that consumables should just be turned into yellow mods. . . in what world is mobile cover useless? And I do agree, yes, the best way to fix green mods quite possibly is, in fact, fixing consumables to become yellow mods.

I do understand that about the ntec/star and agree the ease of use the star has, however I will argue on it being better, because if it was better people would be using the star in mass instead of the ntec. If star was even "on par" you'd see a better split between players using it and those using other rifles over ntec.

I don't disagree about buying CA3, though i do believe that several green mods need reworks nonetheless.

His idea for Kev is a good one.

[Kewlin 692]

7 minutes ago, Noob_Guardian said:

I do understand that about the ntec/star and agree the ease of use the star has, however I will argue on it being better, because if it was better people would be using the star in mass instead of the ntec. If star was even "on par" you'd see a better split between players using it and those using other rifles over ntec.

In my opinion, the NTEC is used more 1. because it used to be better, so it will generally be perceived as better, 2. it's better at range than the STAR, can often fudge CQC a decent percentage of the time, so being more reliable at closer ranges is often not seen as a real advantage.

Plus, that's simply not true, people do not always use things based on reality as much as perceived meta, take the N-ISSR-B as an example, which is potentially hands-down the best gun in the game, but you rarely see. And it's not solely because it's an ARMAS gun, because people definitely use ARMAS guns a lot, albeit not as much in the current meta as previous ones. The N-ISSR-B simply wasn't good on release or the first time it was buffed, so nobody uses it because they all still think it's bad. Similarly, nobody uses the Manic despite it being, quite honestly, probably the best SMG.

Now I know, I know, the same exact principles don't apply the the STAR because everyone has a STAR, but still. . . how many people have really looked at it more recently with a critical eye? Virtually every vet who swears by the N-TEC has been maining it since before the STAR became good, and the first thing every new player does is ask what gun they should change to because of the perception that the starting gun must not be good.

I'm curious, without looking up stats or going in game, can you tell me what makes the STAR worse than the N-TEC? What about with a little research? I honestly can't find anything that makes the N-TEC objectively better in practice except maybe the fact that it works better with more mods.


But I digress, that is all just to say that things can be more complicated than they may seem, and just because someone, or even many people, say there's a problem, doesn't mean there is.

[vsb 6174]

6 minutes ago, Kewlin said:

since before the STAR became good, 

the star has always been decent, afaik it only received some very minor tweaks in the last g1 balance pass

i honestly wouldn’t call it good tho, not like the ntec