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Kewlin

OTW: Here are my Suggestions on your Cooling Jacket Changes.

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Little Orbit, mods are basically intended to have a downside on any gun that has an upside. If it doesn't work this way the game quickly becomes unbalanced to newer and / or non-paying players, which is quite honestly bad for everyone. Yes, there are some exceptions, but those are largely unavoidable and, for the most part, minor.

As it is on live, Cooling Jacket effectively has no upside on burst-fired guns because reducing fire interval by a percent has an absolutely minuscule effect when RoF is so high. However, CJ also has effectively no downside because:

  1. It's so rare for a burst gun to be able to reach max bloom, so increasing max bloom doesn't matter.
  2. CJ only increases bloom per shot on guns that have a recovery delay shorter than their fire interval. (It doesn't increase bloom technically, but it reduces a gun's ability to recover from bloom by reducing the time between shots.)

And the test version doesn't have any downsides either, as in the ~0.41 seconds between shots with CJ3 the OBIR, and I believe all burst weapons you can put the mod on are going to fully recover their bloom.


I understand you want to make there be red mods that are applicable to burst weapons, but I highly suggest that you instead make a new mod that only applies to burst weapons and as such can be properly balanced to them. I personally would suggest one of the following, with my personal preference being the first:
  1. Decrease the time between bursts, but slightly increase fire interval.
  2. Decrease the time between bursts, but slightly increase per shot modifier.

I understand that OTW is just a testing environment, and AFAIK you haven't even posted about these changes really, but these are just my suggestions on the subject from my years of playing, studying, and discussing APB. From that experience, I strongly suggest against making CJ a straight upgrade on burst weapons, and I also believe it would be deleterious to change CJ for every gun just to make it properly balanced for burst weapons. I hope this advice helps.
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Just now, NotZombieBiscuit said:

Slippery fucking slope.

Agreed, mods are mostly fine as they are, but if they're going to try and make there be a mod to increase burst RoF these are my personal suggestions on how to not fuck the entire game.

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Are you telling me that they will change CJ?? 

Don't fix something that's not broken. Game been fine for years and we don't need any revolution or it will end up like 2013 district segregation.
Drastic changes in old games are risky like old people surgeries. Sometimes it's better to leave some things instead of touching it and killing completely.

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12 minutes ago, Clandestine said:

Are you telling me that they will change CJ?? 

Don't fix something that's not broken. Game been fine for years and we don't need any revolution or it will end up like 2013 district segregation.
Drastic changes in old games are risky like old people surgeries. Sometimes it's better to leave some things instead of touching it and killing completely.

We don't know either way yet if they're going to change CJ, we just know they have a test version on OTW.

However, I do agree with you that existing things should generally only be changed when they're basically guaranteed to only have positive effects.

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i may need to open OTW later... i don't see anything wrong with the cj but i can't give my opinion if i didn't try it. Thx for letting me know @Kewlin

Edited by Keshi

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first ir, now cj

wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

stop changing mods

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calm down it’s just a change for burst fire weapons, it’s not going to ruin the game

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47 minutes ago, Keshi said:

i may need to open OTW later... i don't see anything wrong with the cj but i can't give my opinion if i didn't try it. Thx for letting me know @Kewlin

It's a straight upgrade, that's kinda' an issue.
 
20 minutes ago, BXNNXD said:

calm down it’s just a change for burst fire weapons, it’s not going to ruin the game

VSB, please explain to me why we need a straight up 30% 7% TTK reduction to burst fire weapons. Edited by Kewlin
Totally fucked up my numbers.

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Same for sniper rifles, it doesn't have any downsides on those either

Edited by FluttershyI

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3 minutes ago, Kewlin said:
  VSB, please explain to me why we need a straight up 30% TTK reduction to burst fire weapons.

That's what happens when the "balance all weapons around the ntec" thing goes through the minds of some people. A whole bunch of overpowered weapons that are easy to play which make APB a whole lot more boring to play.
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3 minutes ago, Kewlin said:

VSB, please explain to me why we need a straight up 30% TTK reduction to burst fire weapons.

does it not take off less than a tenth of a second from the obir/oscar?

 

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My bad on the 30% thing, meant to say 7%, huge brain fart.

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2 minutes ago, Kewlin said:

My bad on the 30% thing, meant to say 7%, huge brain fart.

All good, I have those whenever I smoke dope.
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I'm not sure why there is such an emphasis on ensuring every mod has to do something on every weapon. CJ on burst fire weapons is a perfectly balanced mechanic; having the mod provide no upsides works perfectly as burst fire weapons never suffer any of the downsides either. There's plenty of mods which do nothing on many weapons.

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16 minutes ago, FluttershyI said:

How can you forget about sniper rifles, it doesn't have any downsides on those either. Also the problem is that the current IR change has big effects on certain weapons basically making them useless and other weapons dont seem to be affected at all since you were never firing them at max cycle rate anyway...

While this is an issue, (albeit only really on the HVR and Scout,) the solution to an issue is never spreading the issue. That's how you get power-creep which is a very bad thing.

As for IR, yes, it's an issue, but not really the subject of this thread.

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Can't wait to see what they do with Heavy Barrel after this.

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1 hour ago, CookiePuss said:

Can't wait to see what they do with Heavy Barrel after this.

I've always wanted to see Heavy Barrel reworked to something like reducing horizontal and vertical recoil, but increasing weapon weight class (makes you move slower while drawn).

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TBH, CJ really needs a buff. Either a small increased from 7% to 10% fire rate, or the downside should have less effect. Cuz right now its more crucial to sacrifice such an amount of precision just for 7% faster TTK.

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1 hour ago, foolish ninja said:

TBH, CJ really needs a buff. Either a small increased from 7% to 10% fire rate, or the downside should have less effect. Cuz right now its more crucial to sacrifice such an amount of precision just for 7% faster TTK.

It's mostly for SMGS and Snipers, it's not really meant for Rifles and the like.
3 hours ago, GhosT said:

That's what happens when the "balance all weapons around the ntec" thing goes through the minds of some people. A whole bunch of overpowered weapons that are easy to play which make APB a whole lot more boring to play.
Ironic

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Well... The only mod that I'm using lately is Mobility Sling (Seriously, even on my Huntress, I don't feel comfortable in hip firing).

BUT. There are more several important differences in human beings and animals that we should know about it.
I agree with you.

Edited by Maverick13

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On the Oscar, CJ does almost nothing. On the OBIR though, CJ3 is noticeable. What CJ3 does for the OBIR is that it keeps your shots tighter together: the bullets coming out just a bit sooner means that spread has less time to accumulate, since spread is not applied instantly/evenly. The end result is that your second and third rounds in a burst are more true to the center of your aim, actually increasing mid-burst accuracy.

For an example, look at CJ3 on other weapons, such as the N-Tec. If you fire the gun full-auto, you'll notice that CJ3 allows you to get a bit more accuracy on the second and third rounds fired, almost enabling a sort of burst-fire strategy. That's for that very same reason: you're firing the next bullet before the spread has completely applied. This is noticeable with the OBIR if you pay close attention, and it actually makes a large difference at longer ranges.

Now, CJ as a whole is seen as a TTK-lowering mod, so when people see it not lowering TTK on burst rifles, they think it's pointless. It's odd that CJ affects burst accuracy in burst guns instead of TTK, but in my opinion it is a very important effect. The issue of CJ not having a downside on burst rifles remains, but rest assured that it does currently make them stronger. In fact, I refuse to run OBIR without CJ - IR is nice and all, but if I miss a bullet because of the burst spread, I've gained nothing with the increased range.

If this mid-burst speed/accuracy change stayed alongside a TTK drop, I wouldn't mind (well, except for OBIR already two-shotting fragile at 0.45s, and lowered burst interval makes that even quicker), but please don't remove the mid-burst fire interval buff. If it were ever changed, I'd still want some way to have that burst modifier, since I really do find it so useful.

------------
EDIT: To be more clear, I want to respond to these two suggestions:

1. Decrease the time between bursts, but slightly increase fire interval.
This would completely destroy what CJ is currently good for. I thoroughly disagree with this change, unless the fire interval buff is put onto another mod (unique to bursts or not).

2. Decrease the time between bursts, but slightly increase per shot modifier.
This makes sense in keeping with CJ's theme, but this also destroys the upside of CJ that I've explained. Again, I either disagree or want the fire interval change on a different mod.

Edited by Siamsol
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