Weapon Balance OTW Tweaks - C/D Testing Values

[Ebola-Chan 59]

i love what was done to shotguns BUT
Shredder got kinda Shredded
the decent range it had is gone
i had 7 hits on a guy 15m away from me and he survived it
maybe it was the lag i dunno but still it felt kinda weak compared to the live one

[AgentWatson 85]

1 minute ago, Ignas / qsn said:

I read it, don't worry.. but they are looking at the wrong direction..

more logical would be to lower the fire rate of Yukon so it wouldn't have the fastest ttk and decreasing accuracy of ntec when spraying down or making tapfire lose some accuracy.

Positive changes generally tend to be more favourable, there are outliers like you mentioned the Yukon or the HVR. But overall people tend to like positive changes to weapons instead of nerfs, because the consequence of nerfing weapons is that you piss off a lot of people who may really like those guns, I'd be more interested to see what would happen if a lot of the balance changes excluding shotguns were updated to the live server.

I think from what I've seen, people tend to have come to the consensus that a lot of the changes to everything but shotguns seems to be quite good. Personally I'd of preferred a straight damage nerf to HVR as opposed to gimmick mechanic, I'm curious to see how it'll effect people with higher latency. 

[Dopefish 248]

19 hours ago, LO_Beastie said:

Improved Rifling

The reduced fire rate (9/15/21%) can actually be a help to a lot of weapons with more control of recoil and accuracy degredation at the cost of minimum time to kill. It's certainly worth a test overall before we make a decision on whether to limit the effect to shotguns only. It'd be worth testing across the board, as it'll affect how a lot of weapons lose accuracy. This also affects Burst Fire Interval, so it does affect the burst fire rifles and pistols as well (*cough* Fang *cough*), and it may affect some weapons a bit worse than others (if we want to go this route, it's likely the LCR will need a buff, since 2/3 of the LCRs have rifling built in, and it's already a very slow killing weapon). The fire rate decrease is also quite heavy, so we may want to tone it down (or improve the rifling range effect). We'll see what the feedback is like.

I'm happy to see mods finally being looked at, and work being done to provide proper drawbacks for each mod. I think the reduced fire rate is a really good drawback to balance the extended range, and the current values seems really good (perhaps even need to be increased slightly). Maybe change it from the static 3/5/7m increase, and make it percentage based aswell? So it would provide a 10/15/20% range benefit instead?

It would mean that IR3 would give the LCR 15m more range, N-TEC 10m, and JG/CSG only 5m, but would be more balanced based on the TTK differences.

[Revoluzzer 274]

21 hours ago, Kewlin said:

Isn't the purpose of these changes buffing shotguns? So why in the world are you nerfing them? I don't know for other shotguns, (except the Shredder,) but I've tested the CSG's range before and on the live servers the CSG can easily 5-shot at 20m or 25m with IR3, so why are you testing a "buff" that reduces the damage done by 5-shots at 20m to 976.5 if you land EVERY PELLET. Please, if you plan on entirely reworking shotguns, just don't touch them. Shotguns are intended to be skilled guns, and you're just trying to make them easy to use, and in doing so making them way worse for players who already use shotguns.

Buffing them in CQC and taking away some of their ranged capabilities seems fine to me, regarding the JG and CSG in particular. It will make them behave more like shotguns do in other video-games and also open up some room for SMGs, which will inevitably become less competitive at shortest ranges, because corner-popping will become way more reliable.
 

21 hours ago, Kewlin said:

I would, however, very strongly suggest against entirely reworking a mod that's totally central to the game's current meta. And BTW, can you give us the actual numbers please instead of the amount it reduces the RoF? I.E. the amount it increases a gun's fire interval?

Sounds like a good thing to me. There is almost no reason not to put IR3 on any non-CQC-gun. APB really needs its meta broken open a little.
 

20 hours ago, Frosi said:

The improved Rifling change is horrific and way too drastic, you'll be turning it from one of the best mods to one of THE WORST mods in the game. A 20% increase in TTK will make the mod completely worthless even on "Guns with high recoil". 7 Meters more range but a 20% increase in TTK will simply not work out and will also make a lot of guns like the Oscar, CSG Pr1/Pr2 completely worthless.

20% might sound harsh at first, but it's not such a great deal for most weapons.
The N-Tec would still stay at a lower theoretical TTK than the Obeya CR with this version of IR3, whilst benefiting from reduced accuracy loss due to the lower firerate. With this change IR might actually reduce a weapon's short range capabilities in favour of ranged deadliness.

[Tobii 346]

2 hours ago, Ignas / qsn said:

I read it, don't worry.. but they are looking at the wrong direction..

more logical would be to lower the fire rate of Yukon so it wouldn't have the fastest ttk and decreasing accuracy of ntec when spraying down or making tapfire lose some accuracy.

Again.. read the post?
The IR3 change is not about the yukon. AT ALL.

He fixed the yukon by fixing it's mod. Any other change's done has no effect on the yukon.

[AgentWatson 85]

1 hour ago, Ignas / qsn said:

And I didn't mean both of these as one..

I mean't the changes on yukon and the changes on IR separately..

Your suggestions are no good, I think the direction they've taken is fine. You may disagree and that's completely fine but this is pretty much what they community has been asking for so the fact they've taken that direction is not without warrant. 

Secondly, I think we should wait until the balance changes get implemented on the live server and then see how those changes develop in a live server, N-TEC may still do good but it won't do nearly as good with the changes that have been adjusted on other weapons. There will also be new meta that develop naturally overtime, people haven't adjusted to the new changes yet so give it time.  Edited August 5, 2018 by AgentWatson

[Tobii 346]

16 minutes ago, Ignas / qsn said:

And I didn't mean both of these as one..

I mean't the changes on yukon and the changes on IR separately..

IR3 changes is not to nerf the n-tec only, tho.

[notHunky 32]

23 hours ago, AgentWatson said:

-Which is fine in my opinion, 6 shots and if it takes 3 to kill and 4 to kill at 20m that's 50% or 66% of the mag respectively. You have to take into account the new changes, the damage reduction per pellet. I think a 40% reduction in firerate is a good middle ground for the thunder and an increase to reload time. 

-Shotgun changes seem fine, the Shredder however doesn't really seem that different. An increase of (20)m effective range to (30) would be fine for the shredder. JG may be a little too strong up close and far too consistent, slight reduction in damage per pellet. 

-Improved Rifling change is controversial but I like it, I'd aim more for 5/10/15% middle ground for the modification would be a pretty decent middleground, In step with what a bunch of other people have said the change is pretty consequential for balance. 

Overall, I'm completely fine with a lot of the general changes to other gun but I believe these changes should stay for awhile to see if any other unforeseen consequences arise. 

 

-Which is fine in my opinion, 6 shots and if it takes 3 to kill and 4 to kill at 20m that's 50% or 66% of the mag respectively. You have to take into account the new changes, the damage reduction per pellet. I think a 40% reduction in firerate is a good middle ground for the thunder and an increase to reload time. 

-Shotgun changes seem fine, the Shredder however doesn't really seem that different. An increase of (20)m effective range to (30) would be fine for the shredder. JG may be a little too strong up close and far too consistent, slight reduction in damage per pellet. 

-Improved Rifling change is controversial but I like it, I'd aim more for 5/10/15% middle ground for the modification would be a pretty decent middleground, In step with what a bunch of other people have said the change is pretty consequential for balance. 

Overall, I'm completely fine with a lot of the general changes to other gun but I believe these changes should stay for awhile to see if any other unforeseen consequences arise. 

 

One thing I noticed about the shredder is that the damage is now far more consistent for me at point blank range IF you manage to hit anyone while aiming down the sights (but good luck doing that with any amount of ping or against carbine users). The performance at range however seems to be really punishing if your target is even a few meters too far. Not sure if this is reflected in the stats but it feels like anything within 15 meters is absolutely toast in 3 to 4 shots, but anything just 2 meters beyond takes an entire magazine to kill. The damage falloff seems a bit too much like hitting a wall considering range is supposed to be the Shredder's specialty. Maybe a more shallow damage curve over range is in order for this weapon?

Probably just my own bias here, but I also think the bad hipfire accuracy on the shredder is an unneeded balance mechanic since the TTK is already longer than most other shotguns. Right now it handles like a severely handicapped ATAC with 1/5 of the effective range, a notably longer TTK, and other weapons will kill you faster at point blank when aiming down the sights becomes impractical.


Also something seems a bit weird with the Yukon. I think the fire rate fix was definitely needed and I actually prefer the slower rate of fire, but I'm finding it especially difficult to kill anything reliably with the burst feature within 3 bursts (even when the enemy is standing still) compared to the normal RFP9.

[Kewlin 692]

3 hours ago, Revoluzzer said:

Buffing them in CQC and taking away some of their ranged capabilities seems fine to me, regarding the JG and CSG in particular. It will make them behave more like shotguns do in other video-games and also open up some room for SMGs, which will inevitably become less competitive at shortest ranges, because corner-popping will become way more reliable.

But corner popping relies on some amount of range or else your opponent can just walk around the outside of the corner so you have no corner to pop around. Plus, the CSG and JG should be more different, and the JG has always had more of an emphasis on closer ranges, so they should just make the JG the more reliable gun within 10m and the CSG should keep its ability to push out to 20m somewhat effectively.

[vsb 6171]

9 minutes ago, notHunky said:

Also something seems a bit weird with the Yukon. I think the fire rate fix was definitely needed and I actually prefer the slower rate of fire, but I'm finding it especially difficult to kill anything reliably with the burst feature within 3 bursts (even when the enemy is standing still) compared to the normal RFP9.

the yukon burst fire mode has always been garbage tbh

[AxeTurboAgresor 268]

I strongly disagree with IR downsides. Do not touch rate of fire for other weapons other than shotguns. You can increase max spread, and bloom for example instead of this, It will break a lot of weapons (all the rifles mainly). This would be the worst disaster.

[CookiePuss 5377]

18 minutes ago, notHunky said:

 I'm finding it especially difficult to kill anything reliably with the burst feature within 3 bursts (even when the enemy is standing still) compared to the normal RFP9.

The mm gimmick has always been pretty shit on the yukon, being a .45 burst interval vs .35 for rfp. Only thing that made the gun even sort of worth using was the hipfire rate. Now the gun is just hot garbage. If you own one, better sell that shit fast. Its now maybe the worst full auto secondary in the game. 

[notHunky 32]

6 minutes ago, CookiePuss said:

27 minutes ago, notHunky said:

 I'm finding it especially difficult to kill anything reliably with the burst feature within 3 bursts (even when the enemy is standing still) compared to the normal RFP9.

The mm gimmick has always been pretty shit on the yukon, being a .45 burst interval vs .35 for rfp. Only thing that made the gun even sort of worth using was the hipfire rate. Now the gun is just hot garbage. If you own one, better sell that shit fast. Its now maybe the worst full auto secondary in the game. 

Eh I still like the gun itself because it's a Beretta M93R with the stock. At least I can point to this now if people complain about getting killed by it.

Also I forgot to mention, the Shredder DF is absolute garbage compared to the other variants good lord. Edited August 5, 2018 by notHunky

[Luminesca 102]

Yukon - Worthless
Shotguns - OP again

Why don't you sell the game, and let someone else have a go. I've had just about enough of what you have done already, constant lag and cheaters, now the weapons and your own special OP secondary shitblower showstopper. You expect us to just buy it like every flair gun G1 threw on the market for the whales to chew to to stay competitive.

Edited August 5, 2018 by Luminesca

[CookiePuss 5377]

11 minutes ago, Luminesca said:

Yukon - Worthless
Shotguns - OP again

Why don't you sell the game, and let someone else have a go. I've had just about enough of what you have done already, constant lag and cheaters, now the weapons and your own special OP secondary shitblower showstopper. You expect us to just buy it like every flair gun G1 threw on the market for the whales to chew to to stay competitive.

Y u hef to be so mad?

[gogol 53]

what's worthless about the yukon? that the RoF is not broken? I mean i tried it on OTW and it didn't seem that terrible

[CookiePuss 5377]

14 minutes ago, gogol said:

what's worthless about the yukon? that the RoF is not broken? I mean i tried it on OTW and it didn't seem that terrible

Its just worth less (see what I did there) than the other options now that it has the .78 ttk hipfire. 

[vsb 6171]

51 minutes ago, Luminesca said:

Yukon - Worthless
Shotguns - OP again

Why don't you sell the game, and let someone else have a go. I've had just about enough of what you have done already, constant lag and cheaters, now the weapons and your own special OP secondary shitblower showstopper. You expect us to just buy it like every flair gun G1 threw on the market for the whales to chew to to stay competitive.

it’s not even on armas yet you mongoloid 

[Corsac 7]

On 8/4/2018 at 7:08 PM, 3D_fobia said:

Mountie SF9 'Yukon'
Finally, when adding the new rifling effect for testing, I came across the Yukon bug (fire rate increase of the mod affecting hip fire), so I've fixed that while I was in there. I mentioned previously that this patch is primarily for improving weapons, but considering it's an error that was easily fixable, it made sense to fix that at the same time. This does mean it has an effective full-auto fire rate nerf from 0.045 (which is what it bursts at) to 0.078 (the actual fire rate of the base weapon).

0.078? Is that a typo?
Or it kills in less than 1 hundredth of a second?

Thats the firing interval, not the TTK. It means a round is fired every 0.078 seconds, whereas before a round was fired every 0.045 seconds.

[Mercuie 28]

I think it's better to fix the Yukon and then do a balance pass on the secondaries anyway.  They're all over the place on viability and usefulness.

[dr0zone 15]

im glad Little Orbit is daring to adjust the game and potentially impact micro-transaction sales, something g1 was  afraid to do for 4-5 years.  they maybe did 1 or two balance passes in that time and those were lackluster.  although i haven't played in 2 1/2 years, some tweaks i would like to see happen are remove logarithmic recoil increase.  when g1 added that it was really sour grapes for me.   yeah, so not many requests other than remove that janky variable recoil from the game.  sales of the ISBR, swarm, m1922-tommy gun,  the norseman pack will go up.  if other players are like me that spent >1k on item store they really are just going for something cosmetic i.e. different looking than F2P, not something categorically different and plain un-fun like that.

the ninja-nerf to the DMR-AV and SD (that did not need nerfing) when the ISSR-b was released, that increased vertical recoil by 40%, could safely be reverted too.  it broke the AV and the DMR-SD already had the vertical recoil reduction from the build-in silencer, so nobody noticed. 

also releasing a 3 open slot DMR-AV "Agrotech DMR-AV" as a premium only sniper would probably be a good seller, LO could easily rake in 10k just setting that up with almost no sweat.  not much need to balance it, even with mods it would still be balls.

and lastly I will leave Little Orbit with a quote from Ernest Le, CoD pro and twitch staffer, when asked about the balance in CoD he said, "No I don't think all guns should be viable".  I can see the opposite being a fallacy that a small dev team succumbs to and ends up with something less polished than Treyarch.

[Eixo 33]

Ir3 firerate nerf is great finally no more fullauto spam oscar on 50m range

[Frosi 722]

14 hours ago, Revoluzzer said:

20% might sound harsh at first, but it's not such a great deal for most weapons.

The N-Tec would still stay at a lower theoretical TTK than the Obeya CR with this version of IR3, whilst benefiting from reduced accuracy loss due to the lower firerate. With this change IR might actually reduce a weapon's short range capabilities in favour of ranged deadliness.

3

Yes but you realize that this will make IR useless as a mod itself? There is a reason why HB isn't used as a mod a lot and as it stands now your TTK will be faster with HB3 on an N-tec than it would be with IR3. The change is pointless and breaks more than it fixes. This is a fine change for shotguns as their range with the new system has gotten out of hand. 20% may not seem like a big deal but in APB every split second counts and I am certain that there are going to be very few weapons that will perform well with IR3 and that mainly due to the way their Bloom / Bloom recovery handles.

[MaxHeadR 23]

14 minutes ago, Frosi said:

Yes but you realize that this will make IR useless as a mod itself? There is a reason why HB isn't used as a mod a lot and as it stands now your TTK will be faster with HB3 on an N-tec than it would be with IR3. The change is pointless and breaks more than it fixes. This is a fine change for shotguns as their range with the new system has gotten out of hand. 20% may not seem like a big deal but in APB every split second counts and I am certain that there are going to be very few weapons that will perform well with IR3 and that mainly due to the way their Bloom / Bloom recovery handles.

No the nerf is fine, as it is

[vsb 6171]

2 minutes ago, Kivron said:

No the nerf is fine, as it is

it’s just another sprint shooting “fix” that’s going to have the most effect on guns it wasn’t intended for, altho i suppose this time its on purpose