Please redo weapon balance

[R3ACT3M 489]

I remember having so much more fun when I started in ~2018 than now. 

Every gun I play now just feels bad. And weapon accuracy is to blame (imo)

Every gun just blooms way too much after just a few shots. What ever happened to the idea of Buffing accuracy and increasing recoil. I was really disappointed when you decided to reduce the Tommy gun's recoil as It was a prime example of what guns should be.

Weapon balance just makes no sense anymore.

I really hope I can get some backup when It comes to the whole, more accuracy more recoil thing cause at least then weapons will be engaging to play. Vs laser beam OCAs 

Honestly speaking, if you hate the meta PLAY IT! Cause it's the only way LO seems to take notice when it comes to balancing things. 

[RespectThis 121]

55 minutes ago, R3ACT3M said:

I remember having so much more fun when I started in ~2018 than now. 

Every gun I play now just feels bad. And weapon accuracy is to blame (imo)

Every gun just blooms way too much after just a few shots. What ever happened to the idea of Buffing accuracy and increasing recoil. I was really disappointed when you decided to reduce the Tommy gun's recoil as It was a prime example of what guns should be.

Weapon balance just makes no sense anymore.

I really hope I can get some backup when It comes to the whole, more accuracy more recoil thing cause at least then weapons will be engaging to play. Vs laser beam OCAs 

Honestly speaking, if you hate the meta PLAY IT! Cause it's the only way LO seems to take notice when it comes to balancing things. 

*hands card*

 

Welcome to the club where people have realized/know the weapon balancing is in a serious need of a rework *cough* revert *cough*.

[Hexerin 1140]

Yup, one of the core goals they need to start working on is making all guns start from perfect (or near perfect) accuracy on the first shot under normal usage. Balance of that accuracy should be primarily recoil, but supported by bloom when it actually makes sense to. The current design of "everything starts inaccurate, and gets more inaccurate with every shot" design is just... bad. Assault rifles should use the NTEC and Misery as examples of what to strive for, for example. SMGs should all be like the Curse, which rewards accuracy while discouraging spray'n'pray.

[DeadPixels 253]

I completely agree that weapons in APB should have more recoil and less bloom. When playing the game it just feels like killing another player is mostly based on rng, which i'm strongly against. But leave Tommy gun out of this, even now when the recoil was reduced the weapon still lags behind OCA and other smgs and has the highest recoil in the game! I also agree LO should take a look at the weapons that never get used. Meta weapons always get all the attention, while some weapons never get noticed and i don't even understand why they are in the game

[wHisHi 206]

Remote detonator, osmaw, opgl, percs, car play, running. Shie***t, soo many tactics to choose from if you hate weapons

[R3ACT3M 489]

2 hours ago, RespectThis said:

*hands card*

 

Welcome to the club where people have realized/know the weapon balancing is in a serious need of a rework *cough* revert *cough*.

I took that card long ago, I suppose all I want is to make sure that the issue stays relevant/not forgotten.
 

2 hours ago, Hexerin said:

Yup, one of the core goals they need to start working on is making all guns start from perfect (or near perfect) accuracy on the first shot under normal usage. Balance of that accuracy should be primarily recoil, but supported by bloom when it actually makes sense to. The current design of "everything starts inaccurate, and gets more inaccurate with every shot" design is just... bad. Assault rifles should use the NTEC and Misery as examples of what to strive for, for example. SMGs should all be like the Curse, which rewards accuracy while discouraging spray'n'pray.

I personally feel like they need to hit the reset button on all weapon changes. Or even try and accomplish what RTW had in mind when it comes to weapon balance.

 

2 hours ago, DeadPixels said:

I completely agree that weapons in APB should have more recoil and less bloom. When playing the game it just feels like killing another player is mostly based on rng, which i'm strongly against. But leave Tommy gun out of this, even now when the recoil was reduced the weapon still lags behind OCA and other smgs and has the highest recoil in the game! I also agree LO should take a look at the weapons that never get used. Meta weapons always get all the attention, while some weapons never get noticed and i don't even understand why they are in the game

Im just saying that the Tommy gun was a good example of fire rate to recoil. And that other weapons should be balanced to be similar (of course not too much recoil in this game, if every gun had as much recoil as the tommy before the buff would be cancer and annoying to play as well)

 

2 hours ago, wHisHi said:

Remote detonator, osmaw, opgl, percs, car play, running. Shie***t, soo many tactics to choose from if you hate weapons

The thing is though, I want to like normal guns so badly. Cause tactics like those are simply not fun after the 1st time doing it. But LO seem to want to push for a meta like that.



Id like them to hit the reset button on weapon balance because at least before guns were fun to play

[RespectThis 121]

4 minutes ago, R3ACT3M said:

I took that card long ago, I suppose all I want is to make sure that the issue stays relevant/not forgotten.

Unfortunately despite keeping it relevant/not forgotten it never really has much light shined on it and a clear lack of Matt Scott making any sort of comment towards it. As we continue to see bad weapon balancing/changes. Along with "the way things are now is much better" comments. Some are to afraid to go back in time because they disliked when there was a holy trinity. Which lets face it. I'd rather have a holy trinity over whatever this pile of jenga blocks are.

Edited February 1, 2021 by RespectThis

[vsb 6171]

you mean you dont like being arbitrarily rewarded or punished regardless of your skill level because rng actively removes player control from a game designed around precise player input?

 

nah ur just mad ur crutch is nerfed haha get owned

[R3ACT3M 489]

4 hours ago, RespectThis said:

Unfortunately despite keeping it relevant/not forgotten it never really has much light shined on it and a clear lack of Matt Scott making any sort of comment towards it. As we continue to see bad weapon balancing/changes. Along with "the way things are now is much better" comments. Some are to afraid to go back in time because they disliked when there was a holy trinity. Which lets face it. I'd rather have a holy trinity over whatever this pile of jenga blocks are.

Maybe if we poke the hive enough the queen-bee will respond? They should go back in time, and simply buff weaker weapons. As a start. Id like to see patch notes similar to warframe someday where they completely reworked combat and movement.

I mean, I wonder how long until the fences get removed (the ones you leap over) in favor for a parkour system that lets you hop any wall.

 

3 hours ago, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA said:

you mean you dont like being arbitrarily rewarded or punished regardless of your skill level because rng actively removes player control from a game designed around precise player input?

 

nah ur just mad ur crutch is nerfed haha get owned

That's the thing though, what crutch? Everything plays like doodoo. 

[Frosi 722]

While I personally don't agree that balance is going into the wrong direction (For the most part anyways) I want to say it again, these feedback posts could be a lot better if players actually voiced what they don't like and propose stats themselves. I see you said that you don't like the change of guns having their bloom increased and that's a very valid bit of feedback but after the amount of changes that happened naming guns that you particularly don't enjoy after their bloom changes would help a ton. 

 

For example I start with one thing I disagree with after these recent balance changes which is the FAR bloom nerf coupled with the buff to the N-tec's bloom, prior both of these guns were perfectly viable and both had their own sets of strengths and weaknesses, the changes to both these guns has offset this a ton and I personally don't enjoy exclusively facing N-tec's again as it yet again don't leave room for any other the other AR's to properly shine because it no longer has tangible downsides over the other AR's.

 

So my proposal to fix said issue would be to revert the FAR bloom nerf (ModifierCap 1.65 > 1.45) while also reverting the N-tec bloom buff (ModifierCap 2.1 > 2.4).

 

In the long run this should achieve more diversity in the Rifleman category as you would have to pick between something like a STAR, FAR or ACES Rifle for the Close to mid range engagements and something like the N-tec 5, N-tec 7 or even something like the AR-97 'Misery' for the mid to long range engagements.

[R3ACT3M 489]

5 minutes ago, Frosi said:

While I personally don't agree that balance is going into the wrong direction (For the most part anyways) I want to say it again, these feedback posts could be a lot better if players actually voiced what they don't like and propose stats themselves. I see you said that you don't like the change of guns having their bloom increased and that's a very valid bit of feedback but after the amount of changes that happened naming guns that you particularly don't enjoy after their bloom changes would help a ton. 

 

For example I start with one thing I disagree with after these recent balance changes which is the FAR bloom nerf coupled with the buff to the N-tec's bloom, prior both of these guns were perfectly viable and both had their own sets of strengths and weaknesses, the changes to both these guns has offset this a ton and I personally don't enjoy exclusively facing N-tec's again as it yet again don't leave room for any other the other AR's to properly shine because it no longer has tangible downsides over the other AR's.

 

So my proposal to fix said issue would be to revert the FAR bloom nerf (ModifierCap 1.65 > 1.45) while also reverting the N-tec bloom buff (ModifierCap 2.1 > 2.4).

 

In the long run this should achieve more diversity in the Rifleman category as you would have to pick between something like a STAR, FAR or ACES Rifle for the Close to mid range engagements and something like the N-tec 5, N-tec 7 or even something like the AR-97 'Misery' for the mid to long range engagements.

But that's the thing I think all guns bloom to much

 

I just want less bloom with more recoil. 

 

I want that shotgun to hit all pellets but shake my screen like a MF

 

I want that smg to throw my hand in the air but fire straight out that barrel

 

I want the HVR do a back flip in my arms from the recoil because it's a big caliber

 

Ntec should shake around because 7.62

 

See what I'm getting at now? I'm not going to begin but actual data down because what sounds good on paper doesn't always work on the field.

 

Plus idk what those values are in retrospect.

 

Is .1 a lot or too little?

[Frosi 722]

1 minute ago, R3ACT3M said:

Plus idk what those values are in retrospect.

 

Is .1 a lot or too little?

Essentially these values I listed are the maximum bloom values, its not easy to get a feel for them but a 0.1 or 0.2 difference in max bloom can make a huge difference for many guns. 

 

By no means are those required to make feedback, something like: "Reduce the FAR's Bloom by x %" is also enough.

 

As for increasing accuracy and recoil across the board, to me it never really felt like recoil was a particularly good way to balance guns in APB, I want to say that there's a decent amount of recoil in the game considering that there are no recoil patterns, high recoil that is also rng could quite heavily impact the feel of the overall gameplay. 

 

Another thing to consider is that changing a guns recoil is extremely difficult, I can't go into specifics here but there's a lot more that controls the recoil of guns than one might think.

[UwUMaster666 9]

I kinda agree with R3ACT3M but am careful of such a change as it may not suit APB.

I think the prime example of what R3ACT3M is describing is maybe the .45, as I have experienced it, it can be a laserbeam IF you can actually control it correctly. It is one of the few guns in APB you have to control to gain accuracy with it, so it's considered a skilled gun by a lot of players. 

Rewarding players with high accuracy for controlling a gun perfectly means players need to actually have skill, which APB is in need for tbh.

[TheMessiah 430]

 

4 hours ago, DeadPixels said:

leave Tommy gun out of this, even now when the recoil was reduced the weapon still lags behind OCA and other smgs and has the highest recoil in the game

yea wtf the only weapon change i liked

[JunoSuzuki 99]

1 hour ago, Frosi said:

For example I start with one thing I disagree with after these recent balance changes which is the FAR bloom nerf coupled with the buff to the N-tec's bloom, prior both of these guns were perfectly viable and both had their own sets of strengths and weaknesses, the changes to both these guns has offset this a ton and I personally don't enjoy exclusively facing N-tec's again as it yet again don't leave room for any other the other AR's to properly shine because it no longer has tangible downsides over the other AR's.

 

So my proposal to fix said issue would be to revert the FAR bloom nerf (ModifierCap 1.65 > 1.45) while also reverting the N-tec bloom buff (ModifierCap 2.1 > 2.4).

This. I've seen lots of people using FAR. Sure Ntec is more popular but seeing these changes gives the wrong message. FAR (Nerf), Ntec-5 (Buff) just makes more people pick the ntec.

 

For any other weapon i'd like to see changes that brings them on the same level as those which are commonly used. Sure that is not precise feedback but i also dont know if i'm precise how it would actually work since i am not sitting directly on the testing stuff. I could say change stat X from value 1 to value 2 but there is no way for me to see what it actually does.

 

A district where players can change their weapon stats and values to test things out themself would be nice tbh 

[LilyRain 674]

Unless there is an end-vision of how APB should play as a game, Weapon Balancing will always be aimless with no definitive right/wrong answers as changing one thing also affects things that weren't even touched.

 

- Hey, meta weapons are too powerful, nerf them down to fall in line with other weapons in the game.

- Nah nah my boii, don't be like that. Meta weapons are at a good place. Buff the underperforming weapons instead.

- Ayyyy, some weapons right here are my ancient religious relics! Don't touch their 'identity' that was a thing since they were meant to be Pay2Advantage from Joker Boxes.. don't touch their niche and no other weapon should even be a rice-grain closer to them. I don't care if the game dies because of this, just don't touch my religious artifacts. Find another way (if you can).

- I have no plans to improve as a player so let my RNG-aspect stay.

- I like Mickey Mouse and Disney so I want APB to be 10% realistic max, more nonsensical-shiz.

- Why are we half-Supermen with Clotting Agent 3? Some punishment is in order for running around in the open like that, APB is too darn tanky... NO, Phok U!! APB must stay like this as dying out in the open is no fun (???)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

There will always be variance and inconsistency in balancing as a whole since there is no clear defined goal.. We will continue to have weapons that melt (OCA, gg), weapons that work mediocrely everywhere and meme-weapons that work once in a blue-moon.. (which obviously didn't work and will never work)

 

The closest thing we got to that definition is the phrase "our established baseline" as seen here: 

 

1 » Where exactly is this "baseline"? Is it safe to assume it being around the currently buffed-OCA? Or is it around the previous, signature ttk value of 0.7s?

 

2 » How thicc is this baseline? Meaning what must the variance/gap in weapons be like? Are we looking at ~0.1 ttk difference between every 2 adjacent weapons? Perhaps 0.05s like a more proper shooter? Should the gaps become smaller to emphasize more on player-performance? Or must it remain large so we continue to have a Rock-Paper-Scissors game? (As of now, it seems to be the latter but this can change)

 

3 » Do you want APB to be less tanky, more tanky or remain the same in general? (I firmly believe APB is just a BIT too tanky to appeal to people outside the current population as a lot of people go what the ♣♦♠♥ when 85ing someone is not enough. Even famous APB players and Streamers are often too famous for this & it happens too frequently even though they know weapon-stats by heart).

 

4 » Do you want less bloom and more recoil for more interactivity, or do you want to do half the work while watching the game play the other half for you? (as of now, it is the latter)

 

5 » Are Consumables going to be overhauled? Or will they continue to have this strong-potent arcadey presence that is powerful enough to be considered in any balancing attempt? (As of now, the latest medspray x2 healing buff suggests they'll be too potent but this can change [and I hope it does, it was just too far from adequate, sorry])

 

6 » A lot of Players on this Earth are fond of sniping yet HVR's bloom-damage reliance is yet to be revisited (which will be a problem since APB 2.1 is currently set to market immediately upon launch as seen on the Roadmap Post by MattScott). HVR isn't some futuristic charge-laser rifle you know.. Would you revert HVR completely till further notice? Would you tone its damage down a bit? Time to make a move, this is taking too long for its own good (and no, this doesn't need the new engine).

 

7 » What about Rev-timers on Rocket-Launchers and things like the nfas-True Ogre? Do you think they are too long, fine as is or too short? Perhaps they shouldn't exist at all & the weapons need to be adjusted accordingly for more fluid gameplay?

 

8 » Should car-gameplay be tweaked at all? Perhaps 25% damage from leaving a car at max speed? Perhaps less/more tanky cars in general? Perhaps smaller/bigger explosion radius? Perhaps slower repair times? Should car mods be tweaked as well? etc.

 

9 » Should weapon equip times make more sense depending on weapon-size? Or should they stay as a sub-layer of cheap balancing?

 

And more..

 

I'd like to see some official statement from LO as this "established baseline" is still a secret to this day.

Edited February 1, 2021 by LilyRain
#Grammar2Stronk

[Lign 361]

I just remember the similar topics where ppl were saying to rework balance in 2018. Also, I don’t understand why you’re talking about bloom except if you’re mainly playing ntec, but again ntec is still the strongest metA

Edited February 1, 2021 by Lign

[NotZombieBiscuit 3146]

Increase accuracy.

Increase recoil.

Revert certain weapons.

Revert certain weapon mechanics, mainly movement ones.

 

Easy done.

 

 

Now watch bad players hate this and good players lick my toes like everytime someone suggests this.

Edited February 1, 2021 by NotZombieBiscuit

[CookiePuss 5379]

weapon balance amirite?

[ShaiShai 130]

well all i hear is people complaining about bad balence, but every match i go in , i see people make 30 - 40 kills vs my 5 -8, so apperently they adjusted to the new weapon balence, why cant you?

[vsb 6171]

46 minutes ago, ShaiShai said:

well all i hear is people complaining about bad balence, but every match i go in , i see people make 30 - 40 kills vs my 5 -8, so apperently they adjusted to the new weapon balence, why cant you?

its not purely that you cant play well with the current balance, its that its often just not enjoyable to do so

 

30-40 kills of holding m1 and tracking your opponent until rng blesses you with enough oca shots to kill them is not engaging gunplay

 

 

Edited February 1, 2021 by AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
typo

[CookiePuss 5379]

This should be common sense but no group of players agree on anything, golds dont agree with each other, silver's dont as well, ditto for vets, ditto again for noobs and ditto again for top % players. 

 

So please for the love of god stop with this "all x agree" bullshoot.  It's just not true. 

[SkittyM 287]

7 hours ago, R3ACT3M said:

Ntec should shake around because 7.62

If you're talking about the N-TEC 5, that isn't 7.62.  N-TEC 7 i guess balances out since the gun's probably heavier in theory.

[R3ACT3M 489]

8 hours ago, TheMessiah said:

 

yea wtf the only weapon change i liked

Yea I liked it too in comparison with other guns. But I love the challenge it brought to the table.

 

45 minutes ago, SkittyM said:

If you're talking about the N-TEC 5, that isn't 7.62.  N-TEC 7 i guess balances out since the gun's probably heavier in theory.

Kinda just assumed since it looked like an ak. Guess the Sword and that m16 are 5.56. 

 

8 hours ago, Frosi said:

Essentially these values I listed are the maximum bloom values, its not easy to get a feel for them but a 0.1 or 0.2 difference in max bloom can make a huge difference for many guns. 

 

By no means are those required to make feedback, something like: "Reduce the FAR's Bloom by x %" is also enough.

 

As for increasing accuracy and recoil across the board, to me it never really felt like recoil was a particularly good way to balance guns in APB, I want to say that there's a decent amount of recoil in the game considering that there are no recoil patterns, high recoil that is also rng could quite heavily impact the feel of the overall gameplay. 

 

Another thing to consider is that changing a guns recoil is extremely difficult, I can't go into specifics here but there's a lot more that controls the recoil of guns than one might think.

I hope that in the future or now LO can change things like recoil patterns. Instead of something like X to the left the X to the right while going Y up

 

1 hour ago, CookiePuss said:

This should be common sense but no group of players agree on anything, golds dont agree with each other, silver's dont as well, ditto for vets, ditto again for noobs and ditto again for top % players. 

 

So please for the love of god stop with this "all x agree" bullshoot.  It's just not true. 

 

I agree apb is a delicate game when it comes to balance. LO should have made minor changes instead of nerfing everything into oblivion.

 

I also only said that I hope some people would agree with me in that there are issues in general gunplay. As apb so far is separated by do you know how to move, and position which don't get me wrong, that's great!

 

But if I position myself in a good spot and still get smoked by the same gun in every range then there's a problem here. (Im looking at you ntec) I actually wish the ntec was buffed a bit more but also have rifles that can compete with it.

 

2 hours ago, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA said:

its not purely that you cant play well with the current balance, its that its often just not enjoyable to do so

 

30-40 kills of holding m1 and tracking your opponent until rng blesses you with enough oca shots to kill them is not engaging gunplay

 

 

Exactly, I know it's a totally different game. But getting 10 kill in post scriptum will be always be more exciting than 20 kills in apb.

 

Horrible example, but gunplay in a game like that is engaging just because weapon handling is difficult. So getting better at it feels more rewarding. (Really bad example)

3 hours ago, ShaiShai said:

well all i hear is people complaining about bad balence, but every match i go in , i see people make 30 - 40 kills vs my 5 -8, so apperently they adjusted to the new weapon balence, why cant you?

I still have really good games here and there. If I lost a game where the opp picked weapons the required more skill, then I won't be a smidgen upset because put it simply they are the better player. But if I'm getting min ttk by smgs and ntecs all day, what's the point in trying to play guns I like? Those ones are the best clearly, yet I don't play them. I continue to play the guns I once thought were fun. They never won me any games but they are just fun to play (like the adder)

4 hours ago, NotZombieBiscuit said:

Increase accuracy.

Increase recoil.

Revert certain weapons.

Revert certain weapon mechanics, mainly movement ones.

 

Easy done.

 

 

Now watch bad players hate this and good players lick my toes like everytime someone suggests this.

I feel like most shooters do the better accuracy more recoil thing because it promotes learning how to handle your weapon in a more traditional sense

 

In APB there really isn't much one can do

 

If in a firefight in a street about waterfront distance apart. The person with the more accurate gun is going to win. Because accuracy is determined by how much that gun blooms and how fast it fires. Not by how much skill the player has with it.

 

Edited February 1, 2021 by R3ACT3M

[Frosi 722]

6 minutes ago, R3ACT3M said:

I hope that in the future or now LO can change things like recoil patterns. Instead of something like X to the left the X to the right while going Y up

 

This is very likely never ever going to happen. Keep in mind that this is an INSANE amount of effort for something that could very well flop.