Why are the Apocalypse weapons all terrible?

[Eyepop 21]

For all of the things that LO has touched for rebalancing, why haven't they attempted to fix the terribleness of all of the weapons in the Apocalypse pack?  These weapons baffle me, as all of them, except 1, maybe, are worse versions of other guns.

 

Strife

The Strife is the one maybe-acceptable weapon in the pack.  It takes nearly twice as long to kill as a CSG, but it does have that 900 frontloaded damage, which might be worthwhile in some cases maybe.  But it has a smaller magazine, worse spread, that horrible greater-than-1-second-before-you-can-switch-guns lockout... and this is the best gun of the pack.

 

R-2

The R-2 is the next least terrible.  Not because it's not an awful gun!  Oh no, it sucks.  But at least it's interesting?

Gun might be worthwhile if it were decent in close range, but with the bloom, it's nearly impossible to use it in that state.  It opens up to 120cm after three shots!  Good luck landing the fourth, killing shot, with that sort of accuracy!

Or, they could make the marksman part better.  After all, it slightly outpaces the RSA in accuracy.  But you have to fire it at a rate of one shot every half second to not bloom out of control, bringing it to a 2-second TTK, the worst of all long-range pistols.

 

AR-97

Ah, my good friend.  A .920-second ttk assault rifle with worse everything (except magazine size) than an ISSR-a.  The ISSR-a being, in case you did not know, a rifle that people running away from screaming, not because it's going to kill them, but because they would rather snipe people with an OCA than use it.

 

H-9

In line with our brilliant idea of giving all these guns terrible TTK, how about this one!  A SMG coming in at .765 sec!  "Oh, it says it's highly accurate, so that's why it's good!"  Except damage falloff starts at 30m!  You could instead take, I dunno, a Manic, kill in .125 sec less, at higher range, with better marksman performance and less bloom.

 

S-247

Is it any surprise that the Oblivion is worthless?  Just take a Wisp.  Same shots to kill, kills half a second faster.  Oh, but I guess the S-247 is a little more accurate between 83-95 meters?  I dunno, man.

 

 

Every one of these guns suffers from terrible TTK, bad ammo economy for their class, terrible hard damage (seriously, the AR-97 does half the hard damage of the ISSR-a... which is silenced)... why haven't they been buffed?

Edited March 25, 2020 by Eyepop

[CookiePuss 5373]

5 hours ago, Eyepop said:

why haven't they been buffed?

I think the Strife has been changed a few times now.

I do agree though, these guns suck.

[Ketog 1031]

7 hours ago, Eyepop said:

S-247

Is it any surprise that the Oblivion is worthless?  Just take a Wisp.  Same shots to kill, kills half a second faster.  Oh, but I guess the S-247 is a little more accurate between 83-95 meters?  I dunno, man.

While it's true that all Apo weapons are meh, Oblivion is by far the strongest of them, and im guessing you're not even aware of it's special mechanic.

[GhosT 1301]

Not just the guns, even the car and clothes in that pack suck a lot too.

Edited March 25, 2020 by GhosT

[Yukate 13]

They were bad even since after its relase, at most they are average guns, Misery is 2-3 burst mid range carabine, Strife is ??? it was kind of worth playing with after its relase but now it's meh, too slow and need very good accuracy because of small pallet pattern (can one shot Fragile users), H-9 is not so bad but there are a lot better options in APB, Oblivion may be usable at longer distance as a Support weapon, it's not very bad but not very good either, i.e Dog Ear have faster TTK and also it's good against vehicles.

Harbinger is a mistake,  looks very good, I'd love it to be more reliable as a long range secondary but with it's bloom it's almost unplayable.

For the price of 40$ and content the pack itself offers it's "not too bad option" especially it's acc bound, but if it comes to weapons the better choice is without any doubts Juggernaut wins.

2 minutes ago, GhosT said:

Not just the guns, even the car and clothes in that pack suck a lot too.

Yeeees exactly that, I'm using only 2 pieces of clothes from the pack, kits are ugly only rear lights are nice but still vanilla are better, cool thing are Matte parts, I'd love to get these for normal cars as well.

[Eyepop 21]

3 hours ago, Ketog said:

While it's true that all Apo weapons are meh, Oblivion is by far the strongest of them, and im guessing you're not even aware of it's special mechanic.

You mean the extra accuracy while walking?  I haven't found a way to use it, combined with the long ttk: all snipers have great accuracy in marksman, so the only time you would need great accuracy outside of it (while walking) is in close combat fights... except with such a long ttk, it doesn't really matter how accurate it is, you still die to anything other than another sniper.

[iRawwwN 282]

I thought the H-9 Curse was a good weapon? Last I knew putting cj3 on it was better than an OCA. never used it though

[Eyepop 21]

2 minutes ago, iRawwwN said:

I thought the H-9 Curse was a good weapon? Last I knew putting cj3 on it was better than an OCA. never used it though

Even with CJ3, it still has a longer TTK than the stock OCA... which you can also put CJ3 on, rewidening the gap.

[claude 223]

ar97 is slept on, bothers me that people want it buffed

Edited March 25, 2020 by claude

[Eyepop 21]

2 minutes ago, claude said:

ar97 is slept on, bothers me that people want it buffed

What makes it worth using?

[WEISSDEATH 57]

9 minutes ago, Eyepop said:

What makes it worth using?

Its well suited for range and is rather accurate, it has a 5 stk.

Though, there's better ARs if you're looking for range outside of the NTEC. I'd even recommend the Frenzy over the Misery.

[ok 419]

Improved bloom recovery and faster equip time would be enough to buff the Harbinger

[PingOVER9000 189]

9 hours ago, GhosT said:

Not just the guns, even the car and clothes in that pack suck a lot too.

 

9 hours ago, Yukate said:

They were bad even since after its relase, at most they are average guns, Misery is 2-3 burst mid range carabine, Strife is ??? it was kind of worth playing with after its relase but now it's meh, too slow and need very good accuracy because of small pallet pattern (can one shot Fragile users), H-9 is not so bad but there are a lot better options in APB, Oblivion may be usable at longer distance as a Support weapon, it's not very bad but not very good either, i.e Dog Ear have faster TTK and also it's good against vehicles.

Harbinger is a mistake,  looks very good, I'd love it to be more reliable as a long range secondary but with it's bloom it's almost unplayable.

For the price of 40$ and content the pack itself offers it's "not too bad option" especially it's acc bound, but if it comes to weapons the better choice is without any doubts Juggernaut wins.

Yeeees exactly that, I'm using only 2 pieces of clothes from the pack, kits are ugly only rear lights are nice but still vanilla are better, cool thing are Matte parts, I'd love to get these for normal cars as well.

Totally agree.

Suggest to change the name from Apocalypse pack to Taking-the-Piss pack

[CookiePuss 5373]

54 minutes ago, claude said:

ar97 is slept on, bothers me that people want it buffed

Its not that the AR97 is bad, its just that everything else is better.

[Noob_Guardian 417]

18 hours ago, Eyepop said:

For all of the things that LO has touched for rebalancing, why haven't they attempted to fix the terribleness of all of the weapons in the Apocalypse pack?  These weapons baffle me, as all of them, except 1, maybe, are worse versions of other guns.

 

Strife

The Strife is the one maybe-acceptable weapon in the pack.  It takes nearly twice as long to kill as a CSG, but it does have that 900 frontloaded damage, which might be worthwhile in some cases maybe.  But it has a smaller magazine, worse spread, that horrible greater-than-1-second-before-you-can-switch-guns lockout... and this is the best gun of the pack.

 

R-2

The R-2 is the next least terrible.  Not because it's not an awful gun!  Oh no, it sucks.  But at least it's interesting?

Gun might be worthwhile if it were decent in close range, but with the bloom, it's nearly impossible to use it in that state.  It opens up to 120cm after three shots!  Good luck landing the fourth, killing shot, with that sort of accuracy!

Or, they could make the marksman part better.  After all, it slightly outpaces the RSA in accuracy.  But you have to fire it at a rate of one shot every half second to not bloom out of control, bringing it to a 2-second TTK, the worst of all long-range pistols.

 

AR-97

Ah, my good friend.  A .920-second ttk assault rifle with worse everything (except magazine size) than an ISSR-a.  The ISSR-a being, in case you did not know, a rifle that people running away from screaming, not because it's going to kill them, but because they would rather snipe people with an OCA than use it.

 

H-9

In line with our brilliant idea of giving all these guns terrible TTK, how about this one!  A SMG coming in at .765 sec!  "Oh, it says it's highly accurate, so that's why it's good!"  Except damage falloff starts at 30m!  You could instead take, I dunno, a Manic, kill in .125 sec less, at higher range, with better marksman performance and less bloom.

 

S-247

Is it any surprise that the Oblivion is worthless?  Just take a Wisp.  Same shots to kill, kills half a second faster.  Oh, but I guess the S-247 is a little more accurate between 83-95 meters?  I dunno, man.

 

 

Every one of these guns suffers from terrible TTK, bad ammo economy for their class, terrible hard damage (seriously, the AR-97 does half the hard damage of the ISSR-a... which is silenced)... why haven't they been buffed?

Strife is amazing, yes it suffers because of TTK, however it's really good when used right. I have pretty much no issues 2 shotting people with it aside from me blatantly missing. I havnt really used it after the last rework so i'll have to try it again. So I'll disagree on this one.

 

AR-97 isn't great, but its usable, like most weapons in the series, its not easy to use, AR-97 is worse than the COBR-A though and thats saying something imo. It could use with a minor buff since the TTK does not seem well aligned with its range. However, I'll test it again, its ttk may honestly not be that far off of the STAR/FAR when used right.

 

H-9 - The TTK is because its meant to be cqc-mid and more accurate than oca, it honestly could use a range increase to 35 or 40m, however its TTK is fine. Manic is likely in need of some sort of nerf, so comparing this to that is kinda laughable.

S-247 - Oblivion is honestly a good sniper, it kills faster than the HVR, and the DMR up to 88m, it suffers because its 4 hit KO, similarly as to why the DMR suffers with 3 hits and WISP with 4. However, it's still extremely usable, and you have no need for HS on it.

 

The wisp is arguably the least balanced sniper of them all with its .9ttk and obnoxious hard damage. The only reason it's not "that" overpowered with its TTK, is because its TTK is artificially inflated via bloom gain. It's niche is more mid range than far range but can compete at further ranges, I think it has a similar ttk as the HVR at 80m or so if you wait for bloom recovery on your shots. Oblivion should easily beat it at range.

 

The Harbinger pistol though is absolutely terrible and clunky. It really could do with a rework of some sort.

 

Honestly though I often feel like the only person in Jericho who does good with these weapons...

Edited March 25, 2020 by Noob_Guardian

[VanilleKeks 734]

Oblivion is one of my favorite guns. It can 4 shot up to like 95m with CJ3. Also you can run Reflex Sight and still have perfect accuracy while strafing. Also keep in mind that 3 shots of the oblivion are like 95% health gone, with that much over damage you can really pressure enemies. It also means that just a small bit of damage to an enemy turns them into a 3STK.

Edited March 25, 2020 by VanilleKeks

[Eyepop 21]

Given this some thought.  Might as well make some suggestions while whining about balance.

 

Core idea: Keep long TTK, but increase gun consistency.

 

This seems to already be the intention with Strife (more consistency due to over damage) and S-247 (consistency due to strafe accuracy).  Let’s assume that these guns are fine (as pointed out, the Wisp is more of a balance problem than the S-247), and bring the other guns in line.

 

R-2.  Make the weapon consistent in a “useful in every case” way, as apparently intended.

Dropoff Range: 70->50
Minimum Damage %: 30->50
Shot Modifier Cap: 3->2
Recovery Delay: .450->.15

Reasoning: Weapon maintains TTK at long ranges, but does so by trading per-shot damage for better accuracy.  The improved accuracy makes it more usable in close range combat.  Still blooms to maximum in 3 shots (out of 4 shots to kill), but maximum significantly reduced from 120 cm-> 74.25 cm (not 90 cm, due to recovery between shots even at full cycle rate).

 

 

H-9.  Make the weapon consistent in a “minimal bloom/recoil” way, providing reasonable TTK out to a decent range, dependant on good tracking

Dropoff Range: 30->40
Per Shot Modifier: .2->.03
Shot Modifier Cap: 1.50->1
Recovery Per Second: 7.5->1
Marksman Modifier: .98->.68
Marksman FoV: 65->70

Reasoning: These numbers are pulled mostly from the Raptor 45, the “no bloom/recoil” gun I would most like to emulate.  VS the Raptor, the H-9 would have longer TTK and shorter range, but within that range is pinpoint accurate for the first 10 (one kill) shots.  Broadening the Marksman FoV as the gun is meant less for sniping, more for hitting targets from range (if that makes sense).

 

 

AR-97.  Make the weapon consistent in a “the rounds keep coming and keep hurting” way as said in the description.

Hard Damage: 36->72
Reload Time: 2->2.8
Magazine Capacity: 20->40
Shot Modifier Cap: 1.10->.5

Reasoning: Hard damage provides an anti-vehicle niche.  Magazine capacity keeps the bullets coming.  Match capacity with a longer reload.  Max bloom down to keep bullets on target.

Edited March 26, 2020 by Eyepop

[Frosi 722]

On 3/25/2020 at 3:16 AM, Eyepop said:

AR-97

Ah, my good friend.  A .920-second ttk assault rifle with worse everything (except magazine size) than an ISSR-a.  The ISSR-a being, in case you did not know, a rifle that people running away from screaming, not because it's going to kill them, but because they would rather snipe people with an OCA than use it.

Honestly IMO the Misery is actually pretty good, it simply feels awful to play due to its ramp up recoil. It's a very unique gun that feels satisfying to get kills with but as a whole feels awful to play due to its ever increasing amount of recoil.

 

On 3/25/2020 at 3:16 AM, Eyepop said:

S-247

Is it any surprise that the Oblivion is worthless?  Just take a Wisp.  Same shots to kill, kills half a second faster.  Oh, but I guess the S-247 is a little more accurate between 83-95 meters?  I dunno, man.

Don't forget that the Oblivion has an insane amount of range and also has a ton of overhead damage as it does 325 Damage per shot. Imo this weapon is extremely underated as it has easily become better than the ISSR-B in a coordinated group. However, the ISSR-B is still better if you are soloing / playing in smaller group sizes due to its versatile nature and very high hard damage.

[Pedroxin 106]

honestly I feel like I got scammed on this pack, would trade it for juggernaut in a heartbeat, shame I can't refund it. This pack in it's entirety is inferior to juggernaut.

[Gateron 267]

Ever heard of the shaw? No one gives the oldest weapons any love 0 buffs since release only nerfs on car damage

[vsb 6170]

2 minutes ago, Gateron said:

Ever heard of the shaw? No one gives the oldest weapons any love 0 buffs since release only nerfs on car damage

i don’t think the shaw is terrible, or even underpowered tbh

 

it only seems like it because g1 got greedy and released a $700 shaw 2.0

[Gateron 267]

53 minutes ago, Solamente said:

i don’t think the shaw is terrible, or even underpowered tbh

 

it only seems like it because g1 got greedy and released a $700 shaw 2.0

There are enough other weapons that will destroy the shaw in its own territory. If they remove the random patootie spray pattern that randomly pulls to the left or right and give it a actually pattern that people can learn i would have agreed with you.

[CookiePuss 5373]

3 hours ago, Pedroxin said:

honestly I feel like I got scammed on this pack, would trade it for juggernaut in a heartbeat, shame I can't refund it. This pack in it's entirety is inferior to juggernaut.

Just buy the Juggenaut pack then.

 

Best thing we can do, is give feedback.

I do think most players agree some of these weapons need to be looked at.

 

 

[ZoriaDunne 327]

Because it's easier to make bad weapons than working in balancing them.
This way you can make a big pack with a lot of bad weapons. $$$

[Genobee 143]

55 minutes ago, ZoriaDunne said:

Because it's easier to make bad weapons than working in balancing them.
This way you can make a big pack with a lot of bad weapons. $$$

Not wrong. Just wish they weren't left that way for years after being released.