Fully reverting IR changes.. and why we tried them in the first place

[Sayori 311]

> Matt makes IR3 changes.

> People don't like some weapons are not ez mode and whine on the forums

> Matt decides to revert

> People whine he shouldn't revert 

> Matt gets new possible  ideas

 

Matt, you are the CEO, stop changing your mind everytime. People will quickly get used to it....

Get new ideas, maybe ask for feedback, tweak accordingly and settle in some middle ground where you are happy and players but don't 180 after few complains.

IR3 changes aren't even that bad, I'd say keep tweaking but don't revert, it's a waste of dev time.

 

[Tigrix 308]

2 hours ago, M4N!4C said:

I appreciate that LO is listening to the community, but if this happens on every time we wont have any progress. So please be confident LO and stay on the changes you’ve made. There are people who complain on anything.

 

Improved Rifling has no significant downside again soon, unless you shout your gun on maximum fire rate your weapon. So what downside would prevent to make IR a straight upgrade to any open slotted primary weapon? More recoil?

 

I actually got used to the IR changes. It might the choice of mods strategic, you get range for slower fire rate. Yeah you are probably worse on CQC as before, but that can be mitigated by choosing a secondary weapon suited for CQC.

The problem with the change was that it created a NEW mod.
If you increase the current downside (bloom) or you de-crease the upside (the range buff), then sure np.

But you CAN'T turn it into a new mod, when you for years have sold pre-modded weapons - not without having some sort of idea to either unlock the "locked sold guns" or allow players with such weapons to change the locked mod once. Because there were several examples of armas sold guns (with locked mods) that had turned to complete trash, cuz' of the NEW fire-rate downside to the IR3.

---

and thanks matt, i'm glad you guys aren't stubborn when you can see something isn't working in it's first iteration/release.
 

[Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 269]

4 minutes ago, Tigrix said:

current downside (bloom)

Bloom cap (or shot modifier cap)

Ftfy

 

Tbh, the old downside was pointless because it affects the max bloom, which if you're using a gun at range, you will never hit 

Edited October 19, 2018 by Weeb TheEpicGuyV2

[Tigrix 308]

1 hour ago, MattScott said:

This is a solid idea - but I hate the idea of shoving it into production without going through player testing.

We have OTW locked off right now while we're testing Epidemic, so we can't get players in until after the Halloween event starts.

Matt, how does a -10% fire-rate sound great suddenly -.- 
Wasn't the problem the pre-modded guns? where there are multiple cases that no-one would EVER stick a -firerate mod on that gun... but cuz' you added this new fire-rate downside and implemented straight, everyone who has locked armas bought guns were fked.

So please don't consider doing the same mistake twice.. revert it as you said in your post and then find a downside that won't make your locked armas weaponry with IR3 suck or find a way to give people with those locked guns a -one-time- exchange of mods on the gun or money-back/replacement of the gun..

Or better.. delete all goshdarn mod-locked guns and replace them with open ones...
It was a terrible design-idea by G1 to add mod-locked guns, as it restricts them into a certain set of balances that will get heavily upset by any development changing existing mods..... as so clearly seen by the IR3 example.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Tigrix

[Fortune Runner 796]

1 hour ago, Kewlin said:

 

Please don't do this, APB does not need to be more complicated.

and that's why  i don't know if its a good suggestion or not *shrugs*

[Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 269]

1 hour ago, MattScott said:

To be clear, all of these changes come from our designers who are extremely familiar with the game

Is it possible to get said designers to join in the conversation? Being the messenger and not the one making the changes, it must be rather hard justifying the changes they make as it's not a change you thought of. If they join in, it might help the conversation, with them knowing why they did the changes and all

 

Like when beastie joined in the shotgun changes 

Edited October 19, 2018 by Weeb TheEpicGuyV2

[Optimus_Crime 81]

i am most definitely sure this will bring a lot of diverse choice amongst players when it comes to primaries, noooo doubt about it, no sir mmmmhhhhhmmmmm....

 

you could've reverted the shotgun changes back to the way they were originally instead but nah that's crazy talk. 

[vsb 6171]

12 minutes ago, K3ith said:

i am most definitely sure this will bring a lot of diverse choice amongst players when it comes to primaries, noooo doubt about it, no sir mmmmhhhhhmmmmm....

 

you could've reverted the shotgun changes back to the way they were originally instead but nah that's crazy talk. 

ntecs with ir3 back just in time to make the halloween event boring af

 

but wait there’s more, ir3 has now received a buff 

 

zzzz

[Texudo 0]

So I am writing on this forum for the first time to intervene in this case.

 

I'm playing APB for a few years and I'm pretty sure that IR3 is finally fixed correctly. In my opinion there is no need to revert IR3.

 

You fixed IR3 and I see that some people complaining about this change because their favourite weapon is not that good as before. Don't let them screw up the balance pls.

I also have weapons with IR3 and no possibility to change it but I know that this mod is finally working fine and there is no point to complain.

 

Sorry for my english

[UnawarePolarBear 50]

5 hours ago, KERNIE said:

trying their best by ignoring insightful advice from people who have actual unbiased experience in what the game needs and listening to silvers who main osmaw is about as unhealthy for a game as it gets

Perhaps the funniest thing is that the player-base are experts at identifying problems, but terrible at solving them.

[MattScott 15242]

1 hour ago, Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 said:

Is it possible to get said designers to join in the conversation? Being the messenger and not the one making the changes, it must be rather hard justifying the changes they make as it's not a change you thought of. If they join in, it might help the conversation, with them knowing why they did the changes and all

 

Like when beastie joined in the shotgun changes 

Agreed. Beastie was my first choice, but he's unavailable today.

[Kewlin 692]

4 hours ago, Tigrix said:

Matt, how does a -10% fire-rate sound great suddenly -.- 
Wasn't the problem the pre-modded guns? where there are multiple cases that no-one would EVER stick a -firerate mod on that gun... but cuz' you added this new fire-rate downside and implemented straight, everyone who has locked armas bought guns were fked.

So please don't consider doing the same mistake twice.. revert it as you said in your post and then find a downside that won't make your locked armas weaponry with IR3 suck or find a way to give people with those locked guns a -one-time- exchange of mods on the gun or money-back/replacement of the gun..

Or better.. delete all goshdarn mod-locked guns and replace them with open ones...
It was a terrible design-idea by G1 to add mod-locked guns, as it restricts them into a certain set of balances that will get heavily upset by any development changing existing mods..... as so clearly seen by the IR3 example.

 

There are no downsides that will work for every premodded gun, so the solution is not to worry about the downside of IR, but to either change the presets or turn them into open slots.

[dett2 64]

7 hours ago, Lyfeld said:

 

This'll make the Fang absurdly broken once more. I would certainly look into doing something with it (or perhaps the RFP line as a whole) because it may feed those who claim this game is P2W. I'd suggest lowering its Improved Rifling to level 1 or 2. 

yesh Fang isn't secondary. need nerf.

[IROCkiller 210]

I honestly enjoyed the IR3 changes, but it did break a lot of guns. NSSW is a laser beam, no need to tapfire. IR3 ruined the OBIR as well. I feel like it was a step in the right direction, and at least you guys tried something.

[vsb 6171]

3 minutes ago, IROCkiller said:

OBIR

oh man 80m obir is going to be fun to cheese now

[BlatMan 711]

4 hours ago, BXNNXD said:

ntecs with ir3 back just in time to make the halloween event boring af

 

but wait there’s more, ir3 has now received a buff 

 

zzzz

Only on LMGs, and ARs. Semi-auto rifles and shotguns got a range nerf. Now the N-TEC also functions as a longer range rifle. The scoped N-TEC is back to being good!

 

I'm wondering. What if IR only affected the firerate of automatic weapons, but only 3, 5, and 7%? Nothing extreme, but enough to reduce the ARs capability up close, while pushing it into the long range rifle class.

Edited October 20, 2018 by MrsHappyPenguin

[vsb 6171]

2 minutes ago, MrsHappyPenguin said:

Only on LMGs, and ARs. Semi-auto rifles and shotguns got a range nerf. Now the N-TEC also functions as longer range rifle. The scoped N-TEC is back to being good!

ARs were the main problem with ir3, most notably everyones favorite ntec - which now gets extra range thanks to the upside of ir3 remaining % based + 3m

 

scoped ntec will never be good with that shitty movement modifier imo

[BlatMan 711]

Just now, BXNNXD said:

ARs were the main problem with ir3, most notably everyones favorite ntec - which now gets extra range thanks to the upside of ir3 remaining % based + 3m

 

scoped ntec will never be good with that shitty movement modifier imo

But now it has even more range! The movement modifier doesn't really affect it if you're not moving while shooting. It was designed to be more like a rifle. Granted, it had more range pre damage dropoff change in beta.

[Genobee 143]

So in short the attempted changes went over poorly with no clear way to resolve it. Fair enough. At least you were up for admitting that. Though I'm not looking forward to the same old meta once more, but eh. 

 

Now what I feel like was part of the problem here is that the changes weren't really fully baked. There were unintended consequences that were sadly quite easy to overlook. There's a vast number of guns in the game with an absurd list of variants ontop of the fact. Which brings me to my question: would it not make more sense to try out more potential changes and allow the players to further discuss the potential outcomes? 

 

You did this before, but it was short lived and only had the one route really taken into consideration by that stage. It seemed like it was all but set in stone. Why not instead take a more open approach where the players can help shape things in a greater sense? I still say your internal metrics should be the main focus. Yet the longtime players around here are going to be aware of things that charts just aren't going to show. 

 

I guess I don't feel the right balance has been struck quite yet. Heh. In more ways then one. 

Edited October 20, 2018 by Genobee

[Kewlin 692]

31 minutes ago, MrsHappyPenguin said:

But now it has even more range! The movement modifier doesn't really affect it if you're not moving while shooting. It was designed to be more like a rifle. Granted, it had more range pre damage dropoff change in beta.

 

Long story short, if you don't want to read all of my justification, the Scoped N-TEC only has about 1m more range than the standard N-TEC.

 

Given the fact that that the Scoped N-TEC only has increased min damage range, not dropoff range, and the increase is only 5m, I think you're over exaggerating a little by saying it's "more like a rifle." The N-TEC 5 only has 110 overdamage, so it only needs to lose ~18.5 damage per shot, or about 10% of its damage to go down to 7 STK. Given the graph below of the standard assault rifle dropoff provided in this post by Beastie, we can see that the normal N-TEC goes down to 7 STK about 5m after its dropoff starts, and since we get an increase in range from 50/70 to 50/75, or an increase in the dropoff interpolation distance from 20m to 25m, that's a 25% increase in the length of the dropoff interpolation, which means the Scoped N-TEC will have a 25% increase in range after dropoff before it goes down to 7 STK, for a total post-dropoff distance of 6.25m to get to 7 STK, but I have a suspicion range is rounded, so that's 6m.

 

So there you have it, the Scoped N-TEC is effective for about 1m more, and I don't think the difference in range for 8 STK is going to be much better. 1m isn't worth almost doubling the gun's walk modifier.

[KERNIE 87]

9 hours ago, MattScott said:

my name jef

well said i whole heartedly agree

[BlatMan 711]

44 minutes ago, Kewlin said:

 

Long story short, if you don't want to read all of my justification, the Scoped N-TEC only has about 1m more range than the standard N-TEC.

 

Given the fact that that the Scoped N-TEC only has increased min damage range, not dropoff range, and the increase is only 5m, I think you're over exaggerating a little by saying it's "more like a rifle." The N-TEC 5 only has 110 overdamage, so it only needs to lose ~18.5 damage per shot, or about 10% of its damage to go down to 7 STK. Given the graph below of the standard assault rifle dropoff provided in this post by Beastie, we can see that the normal N-TEC goes down to 7 STK about 5m after its dropoff starts, and since we get an increase in range from 50/70 to 50/75, or an increase in the dropoff interpolation distance from 20m to 25m, that's a 25% increase in the length of the dropoff interpolation, which means the Scoped N-TEC will have a 25% increase in range after dropoff before it goes down to 7 STK, for a total post-dropoff distance of 6.25m to get to 7 STK, but I have a suspicion range is rounded, so that's 6m.

 

So there you have it, the Scoped N-TEC is effective for about 1m more, and I don't think the difference in range for 8 STK is going to be much better. 1m isn't worth almost doubling the gun's walk modifier.

Where are you pulling these stats from? I'm not questing your info just wondering because the new APB vault does not display minimum damage properly.

 

I'm not being totally serious with the scoped N-TEC. I know it's barely better at range just from using it.

Edited October 20, 2018 by MrsHappyPenguin

[Frosi 722]

I'm honestly pretty happy to hear about this, I feel like ever since IR was changed and the Meta shifted away from it completely the game felt like it hard far less depth due to there only being 1 playable Red mod in the game. (HB and IR both came down to the same thing, an increase in TTK which is not suitable for most guns in APB so they both became very niche mods that only worked somewhat well on a hand full of guns.)

 

I feel like reverting it will be good for the game overall, even if some guns aren't directly affected by the downside of IR. However, now that it will be reverted there are still guns that utilize IR that should be looked at, namely the RFP 'Fang'. I also really hope that from now on the first step is to look at overperforming weapons and not at a mod that they all have in common, it is pretty logical that IR is used on most of the Meta weapons as we've been in more of a ranged meta for years as most of the weapons that have quite a fair amount of range are also extremely versatile such as the N-tec as it has very little max bloom and fast bloom recovery, making it perform really well in close range even against some of the SMG's. The other example of a versatile range gun being the OBIR, it's extremely high health damage per burst (495/1000) allows it to be used in close range by bursting someone once, dealing 495 damage and then as soon as the burst is finished switching to your secondary which in most cases will be an FBW which will then only need 3 shots to finish said person off. The easy way to fix this would be to add a switching delay to the OBIR so you are blocked from switching to your secondary until you can fire another burst. Guns such as the HVR-762, Scout, STRIFE already have this mechanic built into them so it would be very easy to implement this.

 

All in all, I'm happy about this development and I will definitely hop on again after the patch, although, I am honestly kind of afraid about the CSG Pr1 becoming too strong with the consistency changes to shotguns and the old IR.

Edited October 20, 2018 by Frosi

[vsb 6171]

2 minutes ago, Frosi said:

the easy way to fix this would be to add a switching delay to the OBIR so you are blocked from switching to your secondary until you can fire another bursts. Guns such as the HVR-762, Scout, STRIFE already have this mechanic built into them so it would be very easy to implement this.

hello, please fuck off at your earliest convenience

 

sincerely,

guy who doesnt want gunplay to be slowed down yet again

[Kewlin 692]

26 minutes ago, MrsHappyPenguin said:

Where are you pulling these stats from? I'm not questing your info just wondering because the new APB vault does not display minimum damage properly.

 

I'm not being totally serious with the scoped N-TEC. I know it's barely better at range just from using it.

 

First, the ranges of the N-TEC are in that graph, second, range curves haven't been changed since this post, and the Scoped N-TEC recently was changed to use the correct to use the correct range curve with a 50/75 dropoff as mentioned in this post after I and perhaps some other people pointed out that the Scoped N-TEC was using the normal assault rifle 50/70 range curve.