Rebalancing green mods

[Kewlin 692]

4 minutes ago, BXNNXD said:

the star has always been decent, afaik it only received some very minor tweaks in the last g1 balance pass

i honestly wouldn’t call it good tho, not like the ntec 

The STAR got its accuracy changed in 2015 with the overall balance pass, as well as in 2014, and it got its range upped in 2013.

More importantly though, the N-TEC got nerfed in 2015.

[Noob_Guardian 417]

2 hours ago, Kewlin said:

In my opinion, the NTEC is used more 1. because it used to be better, so it will generally be perceived as better, 2. it's better at range than the STAR, can often fudge CQC a decent percentage of the time, so being more reliable at closer ranges is often not seen as a real advantage.

Plus, that's simply not true, people do not always use things based on reality as much as perceived meta, take the N-ISSR-B as an example, which is potentially hands-down the best gun in the game, but you rarely see. And it's not solely because it's an ARMAS gun, because people definitely use ARMAS guns a lot, albeit not as much in the current meta as previous ones. The N-ISSR-B simply wasn't good on release or the first time it was buffed, so nobody uses it because they all still think it's bad. Similarly, nobody uses the Manic despite it being, quite honestly, probably the best SMG.

Now I know, I know, the same exact principles don't apply the the STAR because everyone has a STAR, but still. . . how many people have really looked at it more recently with a critical eye? Virtually every vet who swears by the N-TEC has been maining it since before the STAR became good, and the first thing every new player does is ask what gun they should change to because of the perception that the starting gun must not be good.

I'm curious, without looking up stats or going in game, can you tell me what makes the STAR worse than the N-TEC? What about with a little research? I honestly can't find anything that makes the N-TEC objectively better in practice except maybe the fact that it works better with more mods.


But I digress, that is all just to say that things can be more complicated than they may seem, and just because someone, or even many people, say there's a problem, doesn't mean there is.

N-tec has a faster ttk, and better bloom recovery. While star got buffed which it direly needed, it doesn't have the ranged accuracy, yes. Even in cqc that ttk matters especially against the shotguns and smgs, as we all know, and at range it matters even more especially with bloom recovery often being the deciding factor. Played star several missions today, it is definitely underrated, but until the AR range nerf hits, i don't think we will be seeing much more of it. Plus it feels less accurate than the NTEC for aimed accuracy...

While ISSRB is also not used, i never bought it cause i accidently bought the A varient. Decent gun, nice to play when something different. Manic is REALLY good, but not many bought the pack, or want to use it. It does have 1 major downside, its always necessary to use MM, if you don't it's recoil is drastically worse. Most people don't like MM for CQC and its likely why its not used much. You also don't see NSSW much and that is arguably just as good as the prenerf ntec, but noone wants to use an lmg. Edited August 29, 2018 by Noob_Guardian

[Kewlin 692]

41 minutes ago, Noob_Guardian said:

N-tec has a faster ttk, and better bloom recovery. While star got buffed which it direly needed, it doesn't have the ranged accuracy, yes. Even in cqc that ttk matters especially against the shotguns and smgs, as we all know, and at range it matters even more especially with bloom recovery often being the deciding factor. Played star several missions today, it is definitely underrated, but until the AR range nerf hits, i don't think we will be seeing much more of it. Plus it feels less accurate than the NTEC for aimed accuracy...

So the N-TEC has a faster TTK, which doesn't apply when tap or burst fired, and the STAR is decidedly better in full-auto than the N-TEC, so that's not helpful.

It may have SLIGHTLY better bloom recovery when tap or burst fired, but it really is slight if you compare them side by side. Estimating the tap-fire speed of the STAR at ~256bpm and the N-TEC at 280, that'd give an effective TTK of 1.17 for the STAR and 1.07 for the N-TEC, which is a real difference, I will admit, but not a deal-breaker. I'm not considering burst firing because comparing burst and tap firing is difficult, and the STAR really is best tap fired.

The accuracy is basically a moot point IMO. A stock STAR has 9cm of spread at 10m in MM, and given that we now know the hitbox of a character is 68cm wide, we can conclude that at rest a stock STAR can theoretically get a guaranteed hit out to about 75m. The stock N-TEC has 8.4cm of spread in MM, giving it theoretical guaranteed shots out to 80m, not a huge difference TBH. With HS3, the STAR and N-TEC have 4.8 and 6.3cm of spread at 10m, giving them 48 and 63cm of spread at 100m, both of which are theoretical guaranteed hits with decent aim. So is it an upside that the N-TEC has more accuracy? Yes, but it certainly isn't enough to write-off the STAR when you consider that they're both accurate far past where they're really effective, especially when you consider the STAR has better run, sprint, and jump modifiers, compounded with the fact that the STAR has better base accuracy (not to mention crouch accuracy, BTW.)


So. . . yeah, can we just leave it at the N-TEC being better at range and the STAR being better closer? 'Cause I'm 99% certain that's the case, and to me that makes the STAR just as good of a gun as the N-TEC, just with a slightly different range.


I'd be happy to hear another response, but I'll probably refrain from continuing considering this is very much off-topic at this point.
 

1 hour ago, Noob_Guardian said:

While ISSRB is also not used, i never bought it cause i accidently bought the A varient. Decent gun, nice to play when something different. Manic is REALLY good, but not many bought the pack, or want to use it. It does have 1 major downside, its always necessary to use MM, if you don't it's recoil is drastically worse. Most people don't like MM for CQC and its likely why its not used much. You also don't see NSSW much and that is arguably just as good as the prenerf ntec, but noone wants to use an lmg.

Both CookyPuss and I both use the gun a lot and have no issue with its recoil hip-fired. From my experience it basically functions just like an OCA from the hip, but I also almost never have issues with recoil in APB.

[Hexerin 1140]

7 hours ago, Siamsol said:

so a permanent version would likely have longer cooldowns

That is perfectly fine, and entirely expected. The key point is that they are no longer limited by a finite quantity of consumable items, which makes them freely usable whenever you want to use them. I lost count years ago how many times I've been on a mission and thought to myself "Man, I really wish I could use X consumable right here and now... but the situation isn't quite desperate enough to justify the use of a finite resource."

[SLICKIEM 118]

47 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

the situation isn't quite desperate enough to justify the use of a finite resource.

Even though I have hundreds of every consumable, this thought pounds in my head whenever I think of tapping 4.

[crusade 89]

On 8/27/2018 at 4:20 PM, Siamsol said:

All of these arguments to make CA3 replace the default stats are asinine. You do not make something default just because it is meta, that's absurd. That's like if a month ago you said that IR3 can work on any gun, so we should just add 7m to every gun in the game and turn IR3 into the opposite, making it give more accuracy but less range! Ridiculous.

If something is meta, you need to examine why it is meta, not just assume it's the only logical choice. The two biggest reasons for meta choices are: Is it overpowered? Does it have competition?

Kevlar, Flak Jacket, and Fragile all have fitting downsides that properly match their benefits. So it certainly has competition - the other choices aren't useless.

So is CA3 overpowered? Well, look at Crusade's point that CA3 mid-fight healing is effectively free Kevlar. Look at how it enables players to almost ignore health regen mechanics entirely. Look at how its downside (longer time to full heal) is comparatively ignorable (slower speed is big, less grenades is big, lower health is big, slightly longer regen isn't even noticeable to less-experienced players).

If a single aspect of the game is so much better than everything that compare to it, it shouldn't be the default, it should be brought in line with the rest of the game. It's the same reason we should look at what makes the N-Tec so popular and look to balance it with other guns, rather than buffing everything up to N-Tec standard, which is pretty easy to see as a bad idea. This is why LO is looking to add a downside to IR3 - to make it actually balanced, instead of it just being the default choice for everything. CA3 should be treated the same.

Besides, making CA3 default would ruin Kevlar and Fragile. Kevlar would take an hour to full-heal, and Fragile's benefit of getting into cover quickly and quickly healing will be completely destroyed. Stop saying something should be default just because you equipped CA3 when you unlocked it and have never taken it off since.

I missed this post. These are pretty much my thoughts. +1

8 hours ago, Lucidy said:

Kind of a huge change when a lot of premades and people run HVR. Especially in Baylan, seeing as though I refuse to play Asylum now.

Also pretty sure CA3 was a 10 second regen max (originally) upped to 12 seconds.

First off, I do not even take fight club into consideration when talking about the balance of the game. Fight club still needs Red vs Blue instead of Crim vs Enf, because as soon as one side has 1 less player, a snowball effect often occurs and everyone leaves.

Anyway, you're again focused on the full HP recovery on CA3. If you get tagged by an HVR (within 30 meters), and let's say the same player that tagged you bolts his HVR, then swaps to an FBW. By the time his FBW can fire, you will be able to survive the first shot from the FBW. CA3 just makes you much harder to kill in general, and thus why I believe it needs to be looked at.

[vsb 6171]

9 minutes ago, Crusade said:

First off, I do not even take fight club into consideration when talking about the balance of the game.

probably a good idea tbh

[TheHidden-Tember 142]

So these past few days i've been trying various green mods in various situations.
And I have to say, Medspray is a game changer when it comes to most of them but as others pointed out medspray is a limited ressource.
Personally I have lots of ingame cash and if there was something i'd enjoy buying it would be medsprays.

There is already an option to buy medium ammo boxes (for a rediculously high JT price and only 3 stacks at a time) at the ophelia and wilde store, why not allow us to purchase consumables at any contact?
Also If I could sell all my boomboxes, THAT WOULD BE GREAT THANK YOU.

Edited August 29, 2018 by TheHidden-Tember

[neophobia 216]

Flak Jacket is very good right now too - but only if you use Low Yields, which... isn't very favourable.

[Healt 67]

personally i love speed boost Fragile gives, but i don't necessarily enjoy fearing someone would just sneeze at me after getting shot by hvr for 8 whole seconds. so if LO would make Fragile viable i'm all for it.

[Spaghettio 7]

On 8/26/2018 at 3:33 PM, TheHidden-Tember said:

Hello little orbit!
So since  you started touching mods a bit here are my two cents about how you can improve green modifications.

  Simply put, right now clotting agent is the only real option. Other green mods come with a huge drawback (less speed, less HP, half your grenades) and have the additionnal drawback of NOT being compatible with clotting agent. And this mod has no real drawback, which will put anyone wearing it on a higher playing field than any new player who doesn't have access to mods yet. The fast-paced nature of APB gameplay makes this the best mod for most situations, and with sufficient imagination you can actually imitate the way any other mod works simply by waiting sufficiently between shots or using epinephrine injectors. You nerfed improved rifling 3 because it had no real drawback (yes please don't call the changes anything else than a nerf because it's a nerf.). It is time to do the same with clotting agent 3 which also does not have a drawback. Some people in this thread will probably say "but tembeeeeeer, regeneration takes longer with CA3" to which i reply that if you get hit enough that your fire fight lasts for more than SIXTEEN SECONDS then you deserve to die anyway.

The other unloved mods:

I am personally a big fan of kevlar, but really wearing it in the current meta is just handicapping yourself. Speed reduction is one thing, but the fact anyone can click me to stop health regen for 8 seconds completely negates the health bonus.

Flak jacket seems nice on paper until you realize that explosives will, in fact, kill you most of the time anyway because you got sneezed on earlier. Also the -1 grenade thing means you're stuck to using low yields and they feel bad.

Fragile is mostly fine health-wise coz by using it you assume you won't get hit by enemy fire anyway. but the speed boost is barely noticeable and you can reach a much more spectacular effect by using clotting agent and epinephrine injectors.

my suggestions:

Some buffs to non-clotting agent mods.
Kevlar doesnt feel like a good protection and clotting agent gives you the same 1300 health if you just wait between shots or behind cover. Use your A/B testing on OTW to figure out some good numbers but i believe Kevlar 3 should grant up to +45% health so you can at least resist the overdamage of most weapons.

Flak jacket needs a serious improvement too. When i equip flak jacket, i want my enemies to STOP EVEN TRYING explosives. They'd still be able to down me with actual skill if flak jacket granted up to 70% explosive reduction (or 66% maybe.)  What baffles me with the current flak jacket is that getting hit by all grenades of any kind WILL KILL YOU ANYWAY (or stun you in the case of stun nades)

Fragile health is just where it should be although i woyld not mind a 30% health penalty if it meant a 30% speed increase.


All those big numbers might seem well.... big. But you have this A/B testing tool at your disposal to make this game more interesting and give us an impression of choice. Please use it.

Quite frankly this a waste of time to rebalance already well functioning mods 
I Disagree strongly that clotting agent is the only "real" option
I see all of these mods in play rather often which reinforces my opinion.
Clotting Agent is just a well rounded option with no real downside besides lacking the benefits of other green mods which is a sufficient downside in my experience

Everything has its pros and cons apb is a game that has a variety of situations in which one would find one mod or weapon better than the other generally dependent on the opposition loadout in conjunction with the Location&Objective 


Lets break down some of your loosely made opinions or rather suggestions 

"Fragile health is just where it should be although i would not mind a 30% health penalty if it meant a 30% speed increase."

• -Issue with this suggestion is a 30% penalty would put the threshold for death within the one shot range of HVR/JG/CSG even if those weapons didn't exist you would be at a significant disadvantage TTK wise with specific weapons that benefit greatly from a 30% reduction
• -Besides that we could complain about Hitreg(Maybe) or just point out the fact that players can already run relatively fast even without the current Fragile Value     and that doing a change like this would probably just make apb more of an arcadey game and just making the game harder to balance in "general" 
        (AKA ObjectiveTime/TTK/Damage/LevelDesign)

"Flak jacket needs a serious improvement too. When i equip flak jacket, i want my enemies to STOP EVEN TRYING explosives. They'd still be able to down me with actual skill if flak jacket granted up to 70% explosive reduction (or 66% maybe.)  What baffles me with the current flak jacket is that getting hit by all grenades of any kind WILL KILL YOU ANYWAY (or stun you in the case of stun nades)"

• -No flak jacket is not a "make an entire class of weapons irrelevant Mod" do you think this increases the variety of gameplay in this game by eliminating one form of gameplay with a single mod?
• -"grenades of any kind WILL KILL YOU ANYWAY" do you want grenades to be completely irrelevant? do you want explosive damage to do Zero Damage?

"Kevlar doesnt feel like a good protection and clotting agent gives you the same 1300 health if you just wait between shots or behind cover. Use your A/B testing on OTW to figure out some good numbers but i believe Kevlar 3 should grant up to +45% health so you can at least resist the overdamage of most weapons."

• -Kevlar is one of those mods that you don't see in play with higher skilled players very often Not to say you can't use it but
  the speed penalty is the biggest reason people don't use it due to the fact that if you die getting back can be an significant issue and  running slower puts you at an     disadvantage at completing Objectives and in some cases gives another player complete control over you depending on the location due to speed
• -"i believe Kevlar 3 should grant up to +45% health so you can at least resist the overdamage of most weapons."
  This is basically a pointless change Kevlar 3 already gives you a significant advantage over another player with the same skill assuming you fight them straight on
• -Kelvar 3 is probably the least used mod hence it does gain to benefit from a change of some form unfortunately i don't think that your suggestion is even                     remotely good for the game
   

 "Alternative suggestion:
 Currently medspray is a consumable which works great with non-CA green mods. However it is a limited ressource and you do not earn enough of them. On top of that new players really don't have easy access to consumables, because most mission rewards will grant you decals at low ranks. So please give us an option to buy and sell consumables or give us better ways of earning them. I would 100% sell my 400 boomboxes to buy 200 medsprays."
          
    "Currently medspray is a consumable which works great with non-CA green mods."
      -Yes but some people prefer other yellow mods aswell Shields/AmmoSupply and in some cases Epinephrine
        Shields: Can give you a chance to turn a situation in your favor when you're caught in the open
            Besides that they can also be used to block ladders or doorways which can be rather useful if used correctly
          Ammo: It allows you to substitute field supplier for some thing else RemoteDeto/Blowtorch/Spotter all of which can be rather useful depending on the objective
              Nade spamming is also a benefit and the option to resupply without being Restrained
           Epinephrine: It's mostly only good for clutching/rushing objectives but it can also be used to outplay an opponent if used/timed appropriately

          Now as for Medspray it is a decent alternative to Clotting agent but you gotta keep in mind that it isn't the end all be all as i've listed the benefits of other yellow consumables
              as for the limited consumables i would definitely be interested in trading in consumables for other consumables based upon personal preference
          Besides that suggestion i would be interested in making them functionally identical to Orange mods with their own cooldowns without the consumable factor

Edited August 29, 2018 by Spaghettio
Update

[Spaghettio 7]

On 8/28/2018 at 12:45 AM, TheHidden-Tember said:

If you have no idea how to change kevlar other than a straight buff then it means other mods should be nerfed.

This sounds like some foolish logic just because "you" can't come up with a better idea on the spot there is clearly no other solution besides nerfing everything else 
Is this how society progresses??? Rofl

I'm done with this thread if i care enough to insert a suggestion for kevlar i will simply make a thread in the suggestion section for it
Besides that i think they have better things to be working on than green mods

[TheHidden-Tember 142]

8 minutes ago, Spaghettio said:

snip

 

Please you literally ommitted the most important part which is the last one about medspray

[Spaghettio 7]

1 minute ago, TheHidden-Tember said:

Please you literally ommitted the most important part which is the last one about medspray

Excuse me i started writing it up before you did the Edit  now i shall edit mine to briefly add something about it

[Revoluzzer 274]

On 8/27/2018 at 3:58 PM, TheHidden-Tember said:

i would personally enjoy a buff to kevlar to stop being 3shot by obir and 2shot by nhvr

The latter is never going to happen, even if the HVR got a deserved adjustment to 750 damage. Kevlar would be way too much of a gamechanger if it increased health by over 50% or decreased damage by more than 33%.

 

On 8/27/2018 at 11:20 PM, Siamsol said:

All of these arguments to make CA3 replace the default stats are asinine. You do not make something default just because it is meta, that's absurd.
[...]
If a single aspect of the game is so much better than everything that compare to it, it shouldn't be the default, it should be brought in line with the rest of the game. It's the same reason we should look at what makes the N-Tec so popular and look to balance it with other guns, rather than buffing everything up to N-Tec standard, which is pretty easy to see as a bad idea.

Very good points being made here.
Coincidentally G1's quest of slowly bringing other weapons to N-Tec levels of deadliness has lowered the average TTK enough to arguably make CA3 as powerful as it is, because it has the biggest impact within a short time. Fights rarely "pause" in modern APB, so once you win there is ample time to regenerate.
Kevlar doesn't keep you alive much longer because you already get killed within the blink of an eye, but its downside certainly does prevent you from drawing out a fight at all.
Fragile will get you killed even faster, so you can hardly make use of its upside.


Also, as far as I'm concerned, consumables were a terrible attempt of band-aid-fixing core gameplay-issues.

[magik 184]

On 8/26/2018 at 4:33 PM, TheHidden-Tember said:

Hello little orbit!
So since  you started touching mods a bit here are my two cents about how you can improve green modifications.

  Simply put, right now clotting agent is the only real option. Other green mods come with a huge drawback (less speed, less HP, half your grenades) and have the additionnal drawback of NOT being compatible with clotting agent. And this mod has no real drawback, which will put anyone wearing it on a higher playing field than any new player who doesn't have access to mods yet. The fast-paced nature of APB gameplay makes this the best mod for most situations, and with sufficient imagination you can actually imitate the way any other mod works simply by waiting sufficiently between shots or using epinephrine injectors. You nerfed improved rifling 3 because it had no real drawback (yes please don't call the changes anything else than a nerf because it's a nerf.). It is time to do the same with clotting agent 3 which also does not have a drawback. Some people in this thread will probably say "but tembeeeeeer, regeneration takes longer with CA3" to which i reply that if you get hit enough that your fire fight lasts for more than SIXTEEN SECONDS then you deserve to die anyway.

Personally, since CA3 takes too long overall, (almost 18 seconds as posted by a previous user) I use CA2 on all my characters (unless I'm running with the HVR, I'll use Fragile at that point) CA3 is overrated, and really isn't significantly better than the other mods. I've seen plenty of people run around with Kevlar 3, and a machine gun, rendering my 2 shot kill (if I even land the 2nd shot) almost useless.

However, APB is a very fast paced game, and players who can't move fast tend to get a disadvantage.

[Dopefish 248]

18 hours ago, Kewlin said:

the best change they could do to Kev is making it decrease acceleration instead of speed, that way it would only affect you in combat, as I personally find that the biggest issue with Kev is how much more reliant you are on cars to get from point A to point B.

Back in 2011 or so, that's how Kevlar used to work, but the problem was that the acceleration didn't have a minimum speed where it started being applied to, so you'd pretty much come to a complete stand still every time you wanted to strafe in the opposite direction. Another fault with Kevlar is that it only adds the ability to survive one or two extra shots mostly, which is nearly insignificant with this low TTK. With the heavy movement penalty, you're bound to take a few extra hits anyway, since you can't dodge or take cover as easily, meanwhile your pushing abilities become significantly reduced. Not to mention it makes it feel alot less enjoyable to move around.

As previously mentioned, CA3 pretty much allows the same benefit (if you utilize cover briefly throughout the fight), without any of those drawbacks. Longer healing is a good trade-off for CA3, it's just that Kevlar's benefit is too small, while it have too many drawbacks.

To make it more interesting, I'd suggest adding bullet damage reduction (similar to what have been suggested previously), but explosives and fall damage would affect the player as normal. Buffing the damage reduction slightly, so it affects more weapons and scales better between Kevlar 1-3. Finally I'd add acceleration, but make it so it only kicks in after a certain threshold. This would of course need to be tested, to see how it feels and plays, while also finding appropriate values for the acceleration. Also, would someone be able to help me out with phrasing for the extra acceleration threshold?

Kevlar Implants I
-15% damage from bullets
Requires slight additional effort to reach sprinting speed.
69% of sprinting speed threshold (414cm/s) before additional acceleration.

Kevlar Implants II
-25% damage from bullets
Requires moderate additional effort to reach sprinting speed.
46% of sprinting speed threshold (276cm/s) before additional acceleration.

Kevlar Implants III
-35% damage from bullets
Requires considerable additional effort to reach sprinting speed.
23% of sprinting speed threshold (138cm/s) before additional acceleration.

Below is some comparisons for how it would be affecting damage:
OCA
100%    8 shots to kill (125dmg per shot, 0.64s TTK)
85%    10 shots to kill (106.25dmg per shot, 0.824s TTK)
75%    11 shots to kill (93.75dmg per shot, 0.916s TTK)
65%    13 shots to kill (81.25dmg per shot, 1.1s TTK)

Joker Carbine
100%    6 shots to kill (180dmg per shot, 0.75s TTK)
85%    7 shots to kill (153dmg per shot, 0.9s TTK)
75%    8 shots to kill (135dmg per shot, 1.05s TTK)
65%    9 shots to kill (117dmg per shot, 1.2s TTK)

N-TEC
100%    6 shots to kill (185dmg per shot, 0.7s TTK)
85%    7 shots to kill (157.25 dmg per shot, 0.84s TTK)
75%    8 shots to kill (138.75 dmg per shot, 0.98s TTK)
65%    9 shots to kill (120.25 dmg per shot, 1.12s TTK)

HVR
100%    2 shots to kill (850 dmg per shot, 1.75 TTK)
85%    2 shots to kill (722.5dmg per shot, 1.75 TTK)
75%    2 shots to kill (637.5dmg per shot, 1.75 TTK)
65%    2 shots to kill (552.5dmg per shot, 1.75 TTK)

EDIT:
These changes would make Kevlar 3 be able to survive three bursts from OBIR, and would also make the HVR require three shots, if its damage got nerfed to at least 765dmg. Edited August 29, 2018 by Dopefish
Fixed OCA TTK

[vsb 6171]

59 minutes ago, Dopefish said:

[text]
 

so strafing while ads would allow you to avoid the slowdown effects with most guns (aside from heavy weapons)?

[Kewlin 692]

1 hour ago, Dopefish said:

~snip~

While I don't really hate your core concept, your damage resistance numbers are absolutely way too high.

[Genobee 143]

1 hour ago, Dopefish said:

Words

The acceleration idea has been kicked about for a while now and I gotta say I like it too. Not fond of your numbers, but still. Always wanted them to experiment with the health increase alongside a stiff penalty to initial acceleration only. To prevent players using it from strafing or getting back out of a fight quickly once they engage. Would certainly make for an interesting downside. One that would be far less penalizing than the constant slowdown that mod forces people to suffer through now. Ugh. Even mentioning that abysmal top speed reduction in passing makes me want to cringe. Terrible, terrible downside for a mod.

Would potentially be an interesting alternative to the run n' gun playstyle that clotting agent helps facilitate. Clotting agent focuses heavily on ducking in and out of fights. So kevlar being the opposite approach to fighting only seems appropriate. 

I'm just not sure what would be too much or too little. There'd have to be a mix of increased acceleration time with the initial slowdown I imagine. Just a tiny bit off in either direction and the mod either falls into the same problem it has now or becomes the new go-to. Would love to see them at least toy with the idea on the OTW.

[Dopefish 248]

1 hour ago, BXNNXD said:

so strafing while ads would allow you to avoid the slowdown effects with most guns (aside from heavy weapons)?

Kevlar 1, yes. Kevlar 2 would have minimal slowdown for weapons such as Nano or if you use mobility sling. They'd still be able to accelerate to full speed in a pretty short time since the difference is so minor. For Kevlar 3, you'd get slowed in marksmanship mode for most weapons except the ones who already have slow marksmanship speed, such as snipers.
 

1 hour ago, Kewlin said:

While I don't really hate your core concept, your damage resistance numbers are absolutely way too high.

Compare it with original Kevlar 1-3:

OCA
1000hp    8 shots to kill (0.64s TTK)
Kevlar 1    9 shots to kill  (0.732s TTK) vs 10 shots to kill (0.824s TTK)
Kevlar 2    10 shots to kill (0.824s TTK) vs 11 shots to kill (0.916s TTK)
Kevlar 3    11 shots to kill  (0.916s TTK) vs 13 shots to kill (1.1s TTK)

Joker Carbine
1000hp    6 shots to kill (0.75s TTK)
Kevlar 1    7 shots to kill (0.9s TTK) vs 7 shots to kill (0.9s TTK)
Kevlar 2    7 shots to kill (0.9s TTK) vs 8 shots to kill (1.05s TTK)
Kevlar 3    8 shots to kill (1.05s TTK) vs 9 shots to kill (1.2s TTK)

N-TEC
1000hp    6 shots to kill (0.7s TTK)
Kevlar 1    6 shots to kill (0.7s TTK) vs 7 shots to kill (0.84s TTK)
Kevlar 2    7 shots to kill (0.84s TTK) vs 8 shots to kill (0.98s TTK)
Kevlar 3    8 shots to kill (0.98s TTK) vs 9 shots to kill (1.12s TTK)

OBIR
1000hp    3x burst (7 hits) to kill (1.2s TTK)
Kevlar 1    3x burst (7 hits) to kill (1.2s TTK) vs 3x burst (8 hits) to kill (1.2s TTK)
Kevlar 2    3x burst (8 hits) to kill (1.2s TTK) vs 3x burst (9 hits) to kill (1.2s TTK)
Kevlar 3    3x burst (8 hits) to kill (1.2s TTK) vs 4x burst (10 hits) to kill (1.65s TTK)
 

1 hour ago, Genobee said:

I'm just not sure what would be too much or too little. There'd have to be a mix of increased acceleration time with the initial slowdown I imagine. Just a tiny bit off in either direction and the mod either falls into the same problem it has now or becomes the new go-to. Would love to see them at least toy with the idea on the OTW.

Yes, it would require plenty of testing to see if it's suitable to activate the acceleration after the threshold, or if it would be better to apply the acceleration penalty immediately instead, aswell as the values used to balance it.

EDIT:
@Kewlin Please note that original would sustain some explosive damage, while my suggestion wouldn't. Edited August 29, 2018 by Dopefish

[Kewlin 692]

49 minutes ago, Dopefish said:

~snip~

First off, as I've said before, (I think,) the issue with Kev is not primarily its upside. I wouldn't mind a switch to damage resistance instead of health bonus, but it doesn't need more.

Second, Explosives are already probably the best counter to Kev besides the HVR, why would you make that potentially more extreme? Not being able to dodge them well is bad enough. (Granted, I know if you can run at full speed you'll be able to dodge them a little better than on live, but OPGL and nade spam will DEFINITELY be hard to dodge still.)

[Lucidy 21]

13 hours ago, Crusade said:

I missed this post. These are pretty much my thoughts. +1

First off, I do not even take fight club into consideration when talking about the balance of the game. Fight club still needs Red vs Blue instead of Crim vs Enf, because as soon as one side has 1 less player, a snowball effect often occurs and everyone leaves.

Anyway, you're again focused on the full HP recovery on CA3. If you get tagged by an HVR (within 30 meters), and let's say the same player that tagged you bolts his HVR, then swaps to an FBW. By the time his FBW can fire, you will be able to survive the first shot from the FBW. CA3 just makes you much harder to kill in general, and thus why I believe it needs to be looked at.

People still use HVR in missions all the time. The scenario you are presenting with within 30m very rarely happens to how it used to - however that is besides my point.

You get tagged by HVR and are basically out of the mission for 12 seconds when fighting people of the equal skill level. Who actually know how to use cover and have reaction speed.

HVR isn't gonna get removed either, so basically that's how it's gonna be for a while.

[Noob_Guardian 417]

22 hours ago, Kewlin said:

So the N-TEC has a faster TTK, which doesn't apply when tap or burst fired, and the STAR is decidedly better in full-auto than the N-TEC, so that's not helpful.

It may have SLIGHTLY better bloom recovery when tap or burst fired, but it really is slight if you compare them side by side. Estimating the tap-fire speed of the STAR at ~256bpm and the N-TEC at 280, that'd give an effective TTK of 1.17 for the STAR and 1.07 for the N-TEC, which is a real difference, I will admit, but not a deal-breaker. I'm not considering burst firing because comparing burst and tap firing is difficult, and the STAR really is best tap fired.

The accuracy is basically a moot point IMO. A stock STAR has 9cm of spread at 10m in MM, and given that we now know the hitbox of a character is 68cm wide, we can conclude that at rest a stock STAR can theoretically get a guaranteed hit out to about 75m. The stock N-TEC has 8.4cm of spread in MM, giving it theoretical guaranteed shots out to 80m, not a huge difference TBH. With HS3, the STAR and N-TEC have 4.8 and 6.3cm of spread at 10m, giving them 48 and 63cm of spread at 100m, both of which are theoretical guaranteed hits with decent aim. So is it an upside that the N-TEC has more accuracy? Yes, but it certainly isn't enough to write-off the STAR when you consider that they're both accurate far past where they're really effective, especially when you consider the STAR has better run, sprint, and jump modifiers, compounded with the fact that the STAR has better base accuracy (not to mention crouch accuracy, BTW.)


So. . . yeah, can we just leave it at the N-TEC being better at range and the STAR being better closer? 'Cause I'm 99% certain that's the case, and to me that makes the STAR just as good of a gun as the N-TEC, just with a slightly different range.


I'd be happy to hear another response, but I'll probably refrain from continuing considering this is very much off-topic at this point.
  Both CookyPuss and I both use the gun a lot and have no issue with its recoil hip-fired. From my experience it basically functions just like an OCA from the hip, but I also almost never have issues with recoil in APB.

That's fine if no other response, I agree that star tends to be a "little" better closer base accuracy wise rather than NTEC it's always been that way from recoil etc. Ntec is a bit more accurate especially for range, one thing as well I notice when I switch between both, is the accuracy for NTEC allows me to hit people behind cover when they are crouched far easier than star does and its bloom recovery allows me to hit people easier when in a rush to get the kill before the enemy gets to cover at 30-45m. I've had more situations with a star where i'll be 20m away and full auto at a guy or even tap/burst and fire 7/8 shots at a guy standing still and not kill him and be like, how did I miss when my reticule didn't leave him?!

I've also had a lot of situations where if an enemy goes behind cover i'm 1 bullet off with the star (but i may be able to full auto star and hit rather than burst or tap, i'd have to play with it more) but the ntec would have allowed me to get the kill with the faster recovery and firing.  The star may be better at closer ranges, however it also loses out at a similar range to SMGS and such where the NTEC may not, the minor ttk difference does at times matter imo, especially when playing high skill players using cqc weapons. Which I think is one of the bigger deciding factors.

Star definitely under performs in some key areas where the NTEC wins out due to its differences, statistically it may not mean much, but when put to use in game, imo i feel its' definitely noticable. Would you rather a weapon that has almost the exact if not the exact same ttk as SMGS that also performs really well at range and has really good accuracy? Or one that performs well in cqc and mid but isn't as effective against it's main competitor that everyone uses but is still reliable.

I have issues with recoil at times, i like to switch weapons around every few missions and recoil sometimes gets me if I went from a low recoil to high. The SINA in particular is funky for me at times because I enjoy using the SD OCA or shotguns with no recoil etc then you switch over and it's like oh, now i have to move my mouse down a bit! (I also play on lower sensitivity so it's really noticeable for me to go from the marksman which has very little recoil, to out of mm and boom now im shooting over his head) Edited August 30, 2018 by Noob_Guardian

[crusade 89]

10 hours ago, Lucidy said:

People still use HVR in missions all the time. The scenario you are presenting with within 30m very rarely happens to how it used to - however that is besides my point.

You get tagged by HVR and are basically out of the mission for 12 seconds when fighting people of the equal skill level. Who actually know how to use cover and have reaction speed.

HVR isn't gonna get removed either, so basically that's how it's gonna be for a while.

Yeah, I'm aware of HVR usage. It was merely an example scenario, you could get tagged from 90m away, and 2 seconds later you are shot by his teammate who has a Carbine and survive the shot. My point still stands.

Getting 85'd by an HVR doesn't really have anything to do with CA3. That's just the HVR being the HVR. Wouldn't really bring skill into the equation either considering the HVR user could spawn in line of sight and within 99 meters of you and just tag you while they are still invulnerable. That's a spawn issue though (spawns should happen in alleyways and buildings, not open in the streets, would prevent TDM and VIP rush downs as well).