Weapon Balance OTW Tweaks - E Testing Values

[Kewlin 692]

Honestly, part of me would almost rather have IR removed than have its changes go live, lol.

12m is way too much of a buff for a downside that doesn't apply to every gun, and it's downside is way too huge for the longer range rifles that kinda' relied on it. I personally suggest you try making it increase the per-shot modifier instead of changing RoF or max bloom, because the range increase is good on nearly every gun, and increased per-shot modifier will affect nearly every gun as well. something like: +3, 5, 7m range, +10, 20, 30% bloom per shot.

[dett2 64]

it's a buff IR3.
should be back before stats (7m and increase maximum bloom).
And RFP Fang is broken its not a secondary.

[Hexerin 1142]

3 minutes ago, Kewlin said:

Honestly, part of me would almost rather have IR removed than have its changes go live, lol.

12m is way too much of a buff for a downside that doesn't apply to every gun, and it's downside is way too huge for the longer range rifles that kinda' relied on it. I personally suggest you try making it increase the per-shot modifier instead of changing RoF or max bloom, because the range increase is good on nearly every gun, and increased per-shot modifier will affect nearly every gun as well. something like: +3, 5, 7m range, +10, 20, 30% bloom per shot.

That's Cooling Jacket's downside, and would make very little sense on Improved Rifling besides.

[AgentWatson 85]

3 minutes ago, Kewlin said:

Honestly, part of me would almost rather have IR removed than have its changes go live, lol.

12m is way too much of a buff for a downside that doesn't apply to every gun, and it's downside is way too huge for the longer range rifles that kinda' relied on it. I personally suggest you try making it increase the per-shot modifier instead of changing RoF or max bloom, because the range increase is good on nearly every gun, and increased per-shot modifier will affect nearly every gun as well. something like: +3, 5, 7m range, +10, 20, 30% bloom per shot.

So the only way to balance it on your opinion is to increase randomness and make it feel very samey with its drawbacks in regards to something like CJ3? That's a horrible idea, we've have to go through a another balance pass just to test whether your suggested changes would affect weapons in another multitude of ways. The mod as it currently is hilariously broken but the only thing that needs to be changed is the benefit for the mod. 

I highly doubt the mod as it is in its current state is going to go live.

[Boowy 11]

11 hours ago, GhosT said:

It gives every weapon higher range (if you can still hit things at that range), so it's an advantage.
 

Maybe because... it doesn't have a downside, while almost every other mod does?
It worked 8 years because GamersFirst didn't give a single f*ck about game health, balance and optimization.

Dude, tbh you are here completely without point and your arguments are pointless. You just cant take inmind how much it will hurt weapon balance... And i dont really care. Your are just another person who is crying over something being "broken" becouse he cant use it him self so he will fuzzy bunny about it and also you are that kind of person who will defend his opinion like a dog and just gonna shoot around him how everyone is wrong... There is litterally no point of this conversation and im done here before it turns into another toxic topic.
Have a nice day and i know you wont care. But im just saying my opinion and how it is. Done. Edited August 8, 2018 by Boowy

[FluttershyI 52]

Why does IR need a downside? CJ has a downside but still works well on most weapons aswell. It's not like IR is the only mod to go with. The changes to IR will screw over some of my pre-modded weapons and the overal balance completely

[mojical 160]

@LO_Beastie
Is it possible to see preliminary stats for the Showstopper? I'm especially interested about pellet damage, pellet count, fire interval and 10m spread.

Also about Rifling:
I don't think the decision to slow down the weapon's fire rate is the correct way to solve the issue of Rifling being a no-downsides mod for certain weapons. Not only do slow-firing semi automatic weapons such as the Obeya take the largest hit to their TTK, but players will have to adjust to a new clicking rhythm. Meanwhile automatic weapons with lots of recovery between shots such as the already very powerful N-Tec get even better with this upgrade. 

My suggestion would be to apply a mild "reverse heavy barrel" effect combined with the existing bloom cap increase, while giving 3m/6m/9m extra range for each respective level of IR. The multipier that would be applied to per-shot bloom for each IR level would be 1.03/1.06/1.1. In comparison, Heavy Barrel applies a multiplier of 0.9/0.8/0.7 to per-shot bloom depending on level. This double (but mild) downside makes sure that IR has both positive and negative effects on the vast majority of weapons.

As for shotguns, they should be designed so that they don't recover 100% of their center pellet bloom between shots if IR is used, so IR would make shotguns less accurate when they are fired at or near maximum firerate. The Fang will have less accuracy for the second and third shots in each burst, making it less likely to 3 burst kill.   Edited August 8, 2018 by Lyfeld

[AgentWatson 85]

1 hour ago, FluttershyI said:

Why does IR need a downside? CJ has a downside but still works well on most weapons aswell. It's not like IR is the only mod to go with. The changes to IR will screw over some of my pre-modded weapons and the overal balance completely

Haven't ran into a single gun on OTW that has been "screwed over" by the changes you're so neurotic about quite the opposite, in some cases IR tends to highlight the issues with certain guns making them even more broken. Yes CJ has balance issues on some guns as well, that doesn't excuse the fact that IR continually remains one of the most used red mods on weapons, This in part hopefully moves people to try different mod loadouts doesn't mean though that any mod is safe. This balance pass rectifies an issue I've had with the game for the last 4 years. 
 

Quote

Any preliminary stats for the Showstopper? I'm especially interested about pellet damage, pellet count, fire interval and 10m spread.

Also about Rifling:
I don't think the decision to slow down the weapon's fire rate is the correct way to solve the issue of Rifling being a no-downsides mod for certain weapons. Not only do slow-firing semi automatic weapons such as the Obeya take the largest hit to their TTK, but players will have to adjust to a new clicking rhythm. Meanwhile automatic weapons with lots of recovery between shots such as the already very powerful N-Tec get even better with this upgrade. 

My suggestion would be to apply a mild "reverse heavy barrel" effect combined with the existing bloom cap increase, while giving 3m/6m/9m extra range for each respective level of IR. The multipier that would be applied to per-shot bloom for each IR level would be 1.03/1.06/1.1. In comparison, Heavy Barrel applies a multiplier of 0.9/0.8/0.7 to per-shot bloom depending on level. This double (but mild) downside makes sure that IR has both positive and negative effects on the vast majority of weapons.

As for shotguns, they should be designed so that they don't recover 100% of their center pellet bloom between shots if IR is used, so IR would make shotguns less accurate when they are fired at or near maximum firerate. The Fang will have less accuracy for the second and third shots in each burst, making it less likely to 3 burst.  

Again another person to adjust things by bloom. There are a tonne of issues when balancing things around bloom and the suggestion you're making would also make it so that people would have to learn new rhythms with them mouse as you'd put it. Though that's not really much of an issue, that's pretty much how balance and metas work. You have to be willing to adjust indefinitely in a live competitive game.  

Secondly the issue with bloom is is that you're further making things harder for people on console to adjust. People respectively stick to easier guns that don't have uncontrollable patterns on console like the ATAC which is why it's so popular on console and as the two platforms become more harmonized it's important to remove downsides like that on PC because no one likes putting things on their weapon that increase features that they cannot account for. 

I've highlighted a point you've made that could easily be problematic because you're making a nebulous point here without really defining what it is you mean by less accurate or by how much you want these guns to be less accurate by. I bring this up as the main point of contention because it almost sounds like you're fine with attaching really weird gimmicks to some guns to cause further confusion simply because you don't like what they've done to IR. 

Hate reiterating of points already made but you can't adjust entire game balance on some weapons to account for one mod. Edited August 8, 2018 by AgentWatson

[FluttershyI 52]

15 minutes ago, AgentWatson said:

Haven't ran into a single gun on OTW that has been "screwed over" by the changes you're so neurotic about quite the opposite, in some cases IR tends to highlight the issues with certain guns making them even more broken. Yes CJ has balance issues on some guns as well, that doesn't excuse the fact that IR continually remains one of the most used red mods on weapons, This in part hopefully moves people to try different mod loadouts doesn't mean though that any mod is safe. This balance pass rectifies an issue I've had with the game for the last 4 years. 



 

Weapons like carbine, temptress, obir and obeya will suffer a lot since they become slower. For Ntec tap firing is makes no difference since tap firing/spraying is easy, so that's exactly the problem I mean. N-tec shouldn't get better and it's already used too much. After this change I would never use my CSG PR1 again, same for LCR since it's already too slow and all these semi-auto's. IMO the IR changes will make it that almost nobody would want IR on those kind of weapons anymore, you could just not bother with the mod anymore and play closer ranges or take a real sniper.

Edit: It's not for nothing that we use CJ3 on weapons to get that small percentage in TTK (+7%) including the downsides of the modification. TTK is far more important than that little bit of extra range. Equiping IR would now actually make it like you would have de-equiped more than 2x a CJ3 modification (-15% ROF). And what do you gain? Yeah, 12m on OTW but people complain that's too much (wich I agree on totally). But -15% ROF? No way, that makes no sense to me... Edited August 8, 2018 by FluttershyI

[AgentWatson 85]

11 minutes ago, FluttershyI said:

Weapons like carbine, temptress, obir and obeya will suffer a lot since they become slower. For Ntec tap firing is makes no difference since tap firing/spraying is easy, so that's exactly the problem I mean. N-tec shouldn't get better and it's already used too much. After this change I would never use my CSG PR1 again, same for LCR since it's already too slow and all these semi-auto's. IMO the IR changes will make it that almost nobody would want IR on those kind of weapons anymore, you could just not bother with the mod anymore and play closer ranges or take a real sniper.

Edit: It's not for nothing that we use CJ3 on weapons to get that small percentage in TTK (+7%) including the downsides of the modification. TTK is far more important than that little bit of extra range. Equiping IR would now actually make it like you would have de-equiped more than 2x a CJ3 modification (-15% ROF). And what do you gain? Yeah, 12m on OTW but people complain that's too much (wich I agree on totally). But -15% ROF? No way, that makes no sense to me...

Yes. Weapons will suffer as a result of a -15% ROF nerf but that's meant to be the way it is, there isn't a single mod currently in the game excluding a few outliers like 3PS3 or CA3 etc that don't come with harsh downsides once you start dipping your toes into that level 3 mod. Many of the reasons people don't take mods like level Heavy Barrel 3 are for the same reason because the upside you get for that mod is negligible to the amount of damage you're losing but that's the price you're going to have to pay to choose adjust that weapon to a playstyle that doesn't benefit that selection of weapon you still have the ability there to undeniably break the viability of your weapon if you put mods on it that aren't suited for it. 

In my experience playing on the OTW since it has come out carbine, huntress( haven't been using temptress) those guns benefit from the mod because the mod works like a bloom regulator. It adds artificial limits to the guns ROF so that the player doesn't go over a certain threshold. You're gaining TTK at longer ranges but losing that in CQC, that isn't a downside, because you're extending the viability and versatility of the weapon far past to where it should be viable and only losing a negligible amount of damage potential in the trade off. 

LCR I believe is still getting looked into, it's not in a good place, I'll concede that but the developer seems active about adjusting the gun to account for the new balancing issues. 

[CookiePuss 5382]

2 minutes ago, AgentWatson said:

CA3

Taking the longest to reach full health isnt a downside?

[AgentWatson 85]

Just now, CookiePuss said:

2 minutes ago, AgentWatson said:

CA3

Taking the longest to reach full health isnt a downside?

Most firefights in APB as you know are drawn out for the most part, not a whole lot but enough so that CA3 is a straight upgrade. Because you can take a single hit from a gun like N-TEC and only a little more than a second later you're already accumulating the health damage back. I've tried CA2 and CA1 and it's true they come with their own benefits but I find CA3 is more universally better than CA1 and CA2 because of that quick accumulation of health good for low power hit trading. If you're playing from a distance I think CA2 is preferable though that might be subjectively what I think though. 

[Hexerin 1142]

That's when you realize that Flak Jacket is better than all three of the Clotting Agents.

[CookiePuss 5382]

1 minute ago, AgentWatson said:

Most firefights in APB as you know are drawn out for the most part, not a whole lot but enough so that CA3 is a straight upgrade. Because you can take a single hit from a gun like N-TEC and only a little more than a second later you're already accumulating the health damage back. I've tried CA2 and CA1 and it's true they come with their own benefits but I find CA3 is more universally better than CA1 and CA2 because of that quick accumulation of health good for low power hit trading. If you're playing from a distance I think CA2 is preferable though that might be subjectively what I think though. 

No I think thats the consensus, CA3 for cqc, CA2 for ranged. Though most players I know just pick one and are too lazy to swap.
 

[vsb 6174]

4 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

That's when you realize that Flak Jacket is better than all three of the Clotting Agents.

flak jacket is really only useful in fc where explosives get spammed

in missions its generally not worth the trade off of having near instant regen start

[notHunky 32]

LOL it sounds like these changes are going live now. So I just did some gameplay in Baylan with the new shotguns and all I can say is, hope you guys liked the 2012 CSG meta, because it's back with a vengeance. Okay, maybe not THAT bad but still a very powerful and annoying weapon to be up against. This gets exacerbated by any amount of latency due to corner popping where it looks like the enemy is just shooting through the wall while only exposing themselves for 1 frame.

But on the bright side, the Shredder is really good now. It's high damage per shot and tight spread make it great for suppressing or killing enemies who attempt to retreat behind a wall or corner. Also, it's now great for punishing play-styles which rely too heavily on latency and WASD dodging without the use of cover.

Overall I like the changes.

[Kewlin 692]

5 hours ago, AgentWatson said:

So the only way to balance it on your opinion is to increase randomness and make it feel very samey with its drawbacks in regards to something like CJ3? That's a horrible idea, we've have to go through a another balance pass just to test whether your suggested changes would affect weapons in another multitude of ways. The mod as it currently is hilariously broken but the only thing that needs to be changed is the benefit for the mod. 

I highly doubt the mod as it is in its current state is going to go live.

A larger per-shot modifier only makes it more RNG if you decide to take a risk and shoot it before it recovers its bloom. . . so essentially that's like saying the N-TEC is totally RNG because it has tons of bloom if you shoot it full-auto.

*EDIT* Also, CJ3 doesn't modify per-shot modifier, and since this would essentially not touch max bloom it would honestly be a lot different from CJ's downside, as opposed to the current IR downside, which is literally a less pronounced version of CJ's downside.

Also, guess what? The mod is going live in its current state:
Because LO is literally insane apparently? This could very well become the most controversial patch in APB's history. LO needs to slow the Hell down. Edited August 9, 2018 by Kewlin

[Similarities 226]

1 minute ago, Kewlin said:

A larger per-shot modifier only makes it more RNG if you decide to take a risk and shoot it before it recovers its bloom. . . so essentially that's like saying the N-TEC is totally RNG because it has tons of bloom if you shoot it full-auto.

Also, guess what? The mod is going live in its current state:
Because LO is literally insane apparently? This could very well become the most controversial patch in APB's history. LO needs to slow the Hell down.

They changed the mod but the text was bugged so I can't tell you exactly what the %s are, but I do know IR3 is 18% and 9m, I'm going to be relaxing for a few days with this patch, been burning myself out and need a break anyway. 

[AgentWatson 85]

1 minute ago, Kewlin said:

A larger per-shot modifier only makes it more RNG if you decide to take a risk and shoot it before it recovers its bloom. . . so essentially that's like saying the N-TEC is totally RNG because it has tons of bloom if you shoot it full-auto.

Also, guess what? The mod is going live in its current state:
Because LO is literally insane apparently? This could very well become the most controversial patch in APB's history. LO needs to slow the Hell down.

It isn't. Go and check the OTW they've made last minute changes to the mod. It now has 3/6/9 and 6/12/18% respectively now on the OTW. 

[Kewlin 692]

1 minute ago, Similarities said:

They changed the mod but the text was bugged so I can't tell you exactly what the %s are, but I do know IR3 is 18% and 9m, I'm going to be relaxing for a few days with this patch, been burning myself out and need a break anyway. 

Whenever I think about APB currently I basically instantly turn into a nervous wreck. Hopefully IR3 works out, but I doubt it will without changing Rifles.
 

1 minute ago, AgentWatson said:

It isn't. Go and check the OTW they've made last minute changes to the mod. It now has 3/6/9 and 6/12/18% respectively now on the OTW. 

That's an improvement, but quite honestly still extremely close, and far too rushed. Has this balance pass even been over a week?

[GhosT 1301]

5 hours ago, Boowy said:

Dude, tbh you are here completely without point and your arguments are pointless. You just cant take inmind how much it will hurt weapon balance... And i dont really care. Your are just another person who is crying over something being "broken" becouse he cant use it him self so he will fuzzy bunny about it and also you are that kind of person who will defend his opinion like a dog and just gonna shoot around him how everyone is wrong... There is litterally no point of this conversation and im done here before it turns into another toxic topic.
Have a nice day and i know you wont care. But im just saying my opinion and how it is. Done.

Sorry?
I'm crying over something being "broken" because I can't use it myself? How is that?
Current IR doesn't change anything gameplay wise other than giving you range, and the new one makes everything easier, especially the already borderline-overpowered N-TEC.

[BlackJana 14]

1 hour ago, Kewlin said:

 Has this balance pass even been over a week?

Yes, it has.

[Putins 16]

lo and apb players trying to improve gameplay