Weapon Balance

[DeadPixels 253]

Wow a lot of interesting changes. But can you do something about Colby M-1922 recoil. The gun used to be completely fine before. Kewlin made a thread about it years ago: https://forums.gamersfirst.com/topic/2278-please-revert-m-1922-tommy-gun-recoil/

[ReaperTheButcher 177]

On 9/13/2020 at 2:36 AM, Noob_Guardian said:

Dude, people complain about HVR having 850 life damage, people complain that concs do high life damage, people complain that explosives kill in 1 hit. Nerfing stun grenades which are rarely used is a bad idea, ontop of the fact that at 850 people would still complain about them because it's less than lethal and people hate sitting around waiting to die. Look at the pig, 1 shot 850/900 stamina damage, people complained and it got nerfed because percussions, and instead of nerfing perc stamina damage, they nerfed the pig. Go figure.

85* people 

[lilpiggy 30]

Quote

The combination of Percussion Grenades and the PIG can be oppressive. By lowering the stamina damage of the PIG from 950 to 675, we are forcing users to hit their percussion grenade more accurately and follow up the throw with a shot from the PIG faster. This should preserver the strategy but make the combination require more skill to pull off.

Instead of the nerfing the PIG you should just nerf the stamina damage of the Percussion Grenades.

 

LTL is under powered as it is.

 

And nerfing the Snub? Just LOL.

 

Please consider making real changes to the game play like removing automatic health recovery or introduce limited health recovery. Increasing the TKK in general. These weapon balances won't safe the game. The game play has deeper problems.

 

[Motorola 107]

i feel like the pig needed less stamina dmg. people arent only using it with percs... thats a pretty basic way to use it. people are using it with shotgun and its alot more abusive in the hands of a good shotgun player. you can use it with any weapon actually... it was 950 stamina damage.. you could land a few bullets from almost any weapon and then land a pig shot and instantly stun an unsuspecting player.

 

percs should get hit with the heaviest of the heaviest nerfs in all damages, player, hard and stamina in my opinion. its just stupid how easy it is to throw 2 of them and deal that much damage without any type of skill involved.

[wHisHi 206]

1 hour ago, lilpiggy said:

Instead of the nerfing the PIG you should just nerf the stamina damage of the Percussion Grenades.

 

LTL is under powered as it is.

 

And nerfing the Snub? Just LOL.

 

Please consider making real changes to the game play like removing automatic health recovery or introduce limited health recovery. Increasing the TKK in general. These weapon balances won't safe the game. The game play has deeper problems.

 

Increase TTK and remove health regen? You understand what you are asking?

[lilpiggy 30]

36 minutes ago, wHisHi said:

Increase TTK and remove health regen? You understand what you are asking?

Yes. The game had a higher TKK in its inception.

 

The map design with its wide open spaces and no cover, the ability to look around corners without being seen. The long animations when opening doors, climbing ladders and fences etc. The horrible client/server performance. All of that makes no sense for a twitch shooter. And lowering the TTK without adjusting all the other elements was the biggest mistake that was done to the game. And with G1 no longer running the game i was hoping that some real changes would come to game that improved the game play. But regarding the game play LO hasn't done anything that would bring my hope for the game back. Sadly.

[Dezire 107]

revert thumper changes next please thank

[Rade 54]

On the subject of weapon balacing, is the engine upgrade going to bring a substantial enough increase (if any) in the view distance so that weapons can be better balanced?

 

 

[Lord Cashpoint 269]

40 minutes ago, Rade said:

On the subject of weapon balacing, is the engine upgrade going to bring a substantial enough increase (if any) in the view distance so that weapons can be better balanced?

 

 

 

I know the draw distance is certainly one the areas they are targeting (Essentially to improve how much detail you can see further ahead) This might help in some firefights where you end up hitting invisible objects - I don't think there are any plans to extend the combat ranges in this game above 100m (Excluding explosive weapons) however. I'm not sure what super-long range gun fights would even achieve, given that so few areas actually allow you to have them. By using the DMR you can see that even 80m distances can be hard to actively fight people at.

Edited September 14, 2020 by Lord Cashpoint

[Frosi 722]

9 hours ago, DeadPixels said:

Wow a lot of interesting changes. But can you do something about Colby M-1922 recoil. The gun used to be completely fine before. Kewlin made a thread about it years ago: https://forums.gamersfirst.com/topic/2278-please-revert-m-1922-tommy-gun-recoil/

Tommygun changes were planned but a solution was thought off too late to implement, test and itterate on, this was due to the complicated nature of recoil curves. This is on the table and not forgotten and will see changes in future weapon balance updates.

[Noob_Guardian 417]

13 hours ago, ReaperTheButcher said:

85* people 

 

A player has 1000 life total. You "can" use 85 to represent life % damage like 85% life damage, however 850 damage is the actual damage amount.

[ReaperTheButcher 177]

4 minutes ago, Noob_Guardian said:

 

A player has 1000 life total. You "can" use 85 to represent life % damage like 85% life damage, however 850 damage is the actual damage amount.

I know, i meant there is 85* people complaining about the damage and not 850 but no one understood the "joke"

[Noob_Guardian 417]

1 hour ago, ReaperTheButcher said:

I know, i meant there is 85* people complaining about the damage and not 850 but no one understood the "joke"

Should have just called them scrub golds who are scared of bronzes with HVR's.

[BlatMan 711]

11 hours ago, Frosi said:

Tommygun changes were planned but a solution was thought off too late to implement, test and itterate on, this was due to the complicated nature of recoil curves. This is on the table and not forgotten and will see changes in future weapon balance updates.

Remove the recoil curve. Problem solved.

[LilyRain 674]

@Sakebee
It is good to see changes happening across the board rather than 1 or 2 weapons at a time. It gets things done much quicker and overall more functional.

But like some have expressed, I heavily disagree with the PIG change. I do agree that pig+perc is cheap and needs to be effectively gone for good, but you haven't removed that. You decided to keep that as mentioned in APB-News and thus, ended up keeping the bad and removing the barely-functional playstyles.

 

LTL primaries are weak and inferior in EVERY aspect there is.. (time to stun, equip time, reload time, unnecessary and nonsensical bloom-mechanic that TG-8 has compared to the FBW, etc).

 

In order for LTL to be BARELY competitive around the average ttk in the game of 0.7s, the player MUST give up both primary & secondary slots to be LTL as well as play PERFECTLY via effective switching, which automatically adds the risk of shots not registering through possible ghost shots by the server... plus one's own latency affects the switch-times, because everything is done server-side.. add to that the fact that LTLs don't offer open-slots to make things overall less worse.. The stun-grenade route also kills having a more dependable-grenade to effectively attempt to disable vehicles, which is also a massive downside and a further uphill.. Enforcers must give up an equipment slot to make arrest-times not a death-sentence via cuffmate 4, while criminals don't even need the universal-key to free arrested criminals at the same speed.. plus re-arresting doesn't count without the Criminal dying first.. and a bunch more inconveniences.. these are a big discussion on their own.

----------------------------------------------

With the PIG's change, the following WILL CONTINUE to be a thing in APB:
Perc+PIG (It is still a thing)

Perc+Aces (Dear God)

Perc+PMG

Perc+OCA

Perc+Colby .45 (.......)

Perc+JG (still delicious with a certain, zero-downsides mod)

Perc+CSG
Perc+Tas-20

Perc+FBW

Perc+N-tec

Perc+ATAC

Perc+Manic

Perc+Carbine

.

.

Perc+A WHOLE LOT OTHER THINGS!!

 

(Do you see a trend here?)

 

Your reasoning for the PIG change is: "The combination of Percussion Grenades and the PIG can be oppressive. By lowering the stamina damage of the PIG from 950 to 675, we are forcing users to hit their percussion grenade more accurately and follow up the throw with a shot from the PIG faster. This should preserver the strategy but make the combination require more skill to pull off."

 

This is severely in the opposite direction. Percussion Grenades have a max damage radius of 300 cm, which is very easy to attain even by average players. It is also not possible to "follow up the throw with a shot from the PIG faster" when the equip time of the PIG has not been changed. This change was clearly rushed or driven by someone who dislikes and doesn't understand one of the core-values of this game, Enforcers vs Criminals. Good idea but completely misguided and non-revised execution.

 

You are trying to keep the strategy remain within the game (the opposite of what people are asking for, which is still relatively fine if done right). But the change still DOESN'T "require more skill to pull off". Perc+PIG will continue to exist as it always have alongside all the cheap combinations above. Instead of making Percussions less oppressive with anything that they are used with, you have killed the other, non-cheap LTL strategies that actually require skill, work and more importantly risk to pull off.

 

The problem is not the PIG, it is the immensely-rewarding panic-button that is Percussion Grenades!

 

Suggested Changes:

- Revert PIG's stamina damage back to 950 (required supplemental equip-times and its reload time of 1.25 seconds already guarantee death if the shot either misses or gets ghosted by the server).

Plan A:

- Reduce Percussion Grenades stamina damage (350 → 50)

- Reduce Percussion Grenades soft damage (400 → 200)

- Reduce max explosion damage radius (300cm → 200cm)

- Reduce overall explosion radius (550cm → 325cm)

 

Now THIS will require more skill and actually punish players for relying on a panic button. Alongside making perc+pig require pinpoint perc-throwing accuracy, other combinations such as perc+jg and perc+pmg won't be so cheap anymore.

 

Plan B:

- Increase Percussion Grenade throw time (0.2s → 0.45s).

Adding 0.25 seconds is quite fair for a cheap panic button. It would also keep it as an okay-option to use, just not as oppressive.

Edited September 15, 2020 by LilyRain

[xHenryman90x 129]

16 hours ago, Dezire said:

revert thumper changes next please thank

 This means that it should be still 3 stk with a lower fire rate?

[wHisHi 206]

1 hour ago, LilyRain said:

@Sakebee
It is good to see changes happening across the board rather than 1 or 2 weapons at a time. It gets things done much quicker and overall more functional.

But like some have expressed, I heavily disagree with the PIG change. I do agree that pig+perc is cheap and needs to be effectively gone for good, but you haven't removed that. You decided to keep that as mentioned in APB-News and thus, ended up keeping the bad and removing the barely-functional playstyles.

 

LTL primaries are weak and inferior in EVERY aspect there is.. (time to stun, equip time, reload time, unnecessary and nonsensical bloom-mechanic that TG-8 has compared to the FBW, etc).

 

In order for LTL to be BARELY competitive around the average ttk in the game of 0.7s, the player MUST give up both primary & secondary slots to be LTL as well as play PERFECTLY via effective switching, which automatically adds the risk of shots not registering through possible ghost shots by the server... plus one's own latency affects the switch-times, because everything is done server-side.. add to that the fact that LTLs don't offer open-slots to make things overall less worse.. The stun-grenade route also kills having a more dependable-grenade to effectively attempt to disable vehicles, which is also a massive downside and a further uphill.. Enforcers must give up an equipment slot to make arrest-times not a death-sentence via cuffmate 4, while criminals don't even need the universal-key to free arrested criminals at the same speed.. plus re-arresting doesn't count without the Criminal dying first.. and a bunch more inconveniences.. these are a big discussion on their own.

----------------------------------------------

With the PIG's change, the following WILL CONTINUE to be a thing in APB:
Perc+PIG (It is still a thing)

Perc+Aces (Dear God)

Perc+PMG

Perc+OCA

Perc+Colby .45 (.......)

Perc+JG (still delicious with a certain, zero-downsides mod)

Perc+CSG
Perc+Tas-20

Perc+FBW

Perc+N-tec

Perc+ATAC

Perc+Manic

Perc+Carbine

.

.

Perc+A WHOLE LOT OTHER THINGS!!

 

(Do you see a trend here?)

 

Your reasoning for the PIG change is: "The combination of Percussion Grenades and the PIG can be oppressive. By lowering the stamina damage of the PIG from 950 to 675, we are forcing users to hit their percussion grenade more accurately and follow up the throw with a shot from the PIG faster. This should preserver the strategy but make the combination require more skill to pull off."

 

This is severely in the opposite direction. Percussion Grenades have a max damage radius of 300 cm, which is very easy to attain even by average players. It is also not possible to "follow up the throw with a shot from the PIG faster" when the equip time of the PIG has not been changed. This change was clearly rushed or driven by someone who dislikes and doesn't understand one of the core-values of this game, Enforcers vs Criminals. Good idea but completely misguided and non-revised execution.

 

You are trying to keep the strategy remain within the game (the opposite of what people are asking for, which is still relatively fine if done right). But the change still DOESN'T "require more skill to pull off". Perc+PIG will continue to exist as it always have alongside all the cheap combinations above. Instead of making Percussions less oppressive with anything that they are used with, you have killed the other, non-cheap LTL strategies that actually require skill, work and more importantly risk to pull off.

 

The problem is not the PIG, it is the immensely-rewarding panic-button that is Percussion Grenades!

 

Suggested Changes:

- Revert PIG's stamina damage back to 950 (required supplemental equip-times and its reload time of 1.25 seconds already guarantee death if the shot either misses or gets ghosted by the server).

Plan A:

- Reduce Percussion Grenades stamina damage (350 → 50)

- Reduce Percussion Grenades soft damage (400 → 200)

- Reduce max explosion damage radius (300cm → 200cm)

- Reduce overall explosion radius (550cm → 325cm)

 

Now THIS will require more skill and actually punish players for relying on a panic button. Alongside making perc+pig require pinpoint perc-throwing accuracy, other combinations such as perc+jg and perc+pmg won't be so cheap anymore.

 

Plan B:

- Increase Percussion Grenade throw time (0.2s → 0.45s).

Adding 0.25 seconds is quite fair for a cheap panic button. It would also keep it as an okay-option to use, just not as oppressive.

1 shot to chest + pig = stunned. No. This is bs.

Incoming change is way better.

[LilyRain 674]

19 minutes ago, wHisHi said:

1 shot to chest + pig = stunned. No. This is bs.

Incoming change is way better.

It really is not considering a lot of strats can do this but faster and better. It is part of the current-game. It is also barely on par with meta weapons, which hold zero risk at all.

 

I also don't think you understand the "incoming change" as that still pertains to perc+everything. You're telling me pig+perc is better...?

 

Edited September 15, 2020 by LilyRain

[lilpiggy 30]

Please revert the changes of the PIG. 

 

Instead reduce or remove the stamina damage of the Percusion Grenades or just remove them all together from the game.

 

Or if you need to keep PIG the stamina nerf:

• reduce the reload time
• increase the range
• improve accuracy while moving

To compensate for the nerf.

 

Merged.

 

4 hours ago, lilpiggy said:

Instead reduce or remove the stamina damage of the Percusion Grenades or just remove them all together from the game.

Or just remove the ability for the Percusion Grenades to stun.

[ReaperTheButcher 177]

20 minutes ago, lilpiggy said:

Or just remove the ability for the Percusion Grenades to stun.

This is the same thing, stunning players is dealing stamina damage, before the "nerf" the pig had 950 stamina damage which is 95% of the damage threshold of the player, and the perc has enough stamina damage and even if you almost miss it and the enemy get hit by it even as little as 50 stamina damage and you hit the pig shot right after, the object will be stunned, all they did was decrease the pig stamina damage so that dirty tactic still works but wont be as consistent as before which is great.

 

 

Edited September 15, 2020 by ReaperTheButcher

[cowhorseman 441]

AND YET you didn't touch the stupid fucking cr762. not a dam bit thats lovely. i sure still do enjoy getting killed in 4 shots by people who spam click the shit out of it and being that it works well in cqc and long range it's gonna stay broken woot. oh and can you fix the r2? it's still a worthless rsa/fbw mix with the ammo reserve of "maybe you want to kill two people" becuase it takes 4 shots min and max to kill with 7 in the gun and like 32 ammo or something

[lilpiggy 30]

14 minutes ago, ReaperTheButcher said:

This is the same thing, stunning players is dealing stamina damage,

That is WRONG. Only a few weapons have the ability to stun (all LTL weapons, nano, dmr, most or all grenades; explosives can stun too i believe). Other weapons can NOT stun. But most weapons deal stamina damage.

[ReaperTheButcher 177]

10 minutes ago, lilpiggy said:

That is WRONG. Only a few weapons have the ability to stun (all LTL weapons, nano, dmr, most or all grenades; explosives can stun too i believe). Other weapons can NOT stun. But most weapons deal stamina damage.

Most weapons have less stamina damage than health damage, if the stamina damage is higher then health damage you will result in stunning the player and not killing him, you are probably a new player and dont understand that..

Edited September 15, 2020 by ReaperTheButcher

[lilpiggy 30]

1 minute ago, ReaperTheButcher said:

Most weapons have less stamina damage than health damage, if the stamina damage is higher then health damage you will result in stunning the player and not killing him, you are probably a new player and dont understand that..

That is wrong. I am playing the game since closed beta.

[Frosi 722]

4 hours ago, lilpiggy said:

Please revert the changes of the PIG. 

 

Instead reduce or remove the stamina damage of the Percusion Grenades or just remove them all together from the game.

 

Or if you need to keep PIG the stamina nerf:

• reduce the reload time
• increase the range
• improve accuracy while moving

To compensate for the nerf.

 

Merged.

 

Or just remove the ability for the Percusion Grenades to stun.

The PIG has no reason to be at 950 Stamina damage, it allows for way too many unintended mechanics such as "Pig-Switching" that reduce its actual time to stun to .6 (Equip time of the PIG). This works with a ton of weapons in the game. The ISSR-B for example deals 170 stamina damage a shot and is extremely good in CQC, there is no pushing someone that is using that Combo as they will take you out of the game almost instantly, especially if they have cover to hide behind. Rather than adjusting all of these weapons to have less stamina damage the PIG had its reduced so it is mostly the same but don't have its primary interactions come down to cheesing it into a 1 shot stun.