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Engine Update IS the worst tha happened to APB

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Posted (edited)

It's not the engine doomed apb, g1 did. If they have released new engine in 2014 (like they originally promised), or okay 2015, or even 2016, that would be fine.

But instead of this they stretched the developement for long 4 years, and i still believe that at some point they completely stopped it an decided to release the game on colsoles and milk the shit out of it without any interactions with playerbase, saying that they are doing something from time to time.

What LO doing now is finishing what must be finished and actually ressurecting the game.

 

But enough of thess lyrics, there is actually the other side of the coin

New engine is not only about optimization or slightly better graphics, its also about content creation.

Engine update will facilitate the process of game expansion for developers. I remeber blogpost 'bout that, dont think i'll be able to find it now, but the main idea from there is: "apb's code is a mess (you must be naive or new to not be aware of that) that extremely difficult if not impossible to edit, expand, or troubleshoot, new engine will fix that with new ground-up code"

Edited by Nerima
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7 hours ago, Nagletz said:

BUT some good player with "underthreatable" level of gold can create new account and go massacre bronze all day, that's what I witnessed a few times and not even joking, these guys are playing like players I used to see in silver servers. Maybe even better...  

That happens rarely, but it does, sadly.

I'd rather have them fight with low accs than with a car surfing shaw or explosives

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Posted (edited)
On 6/20/2020 at 6:59 PM, Resine said:

To be honest, engine update is what doomed APB, for couple of years now, there are bugs, issues, imbalances of various kinds, thousands of community ideas, propositions, expectations that are not fulfilled because of "team being busy working on the update", while the players pool diminishes each and every day.

Say, you deliver it, the game will feel smoother and I will get few extra FPS, it doesn't look that much better than RTW looked like and the core of game mechanics won't change for years to come, since you will be busy fixing thousands of issues after the patch.

Looking from times perspective, I would rather have current engine that is patched to community carefully filtered demands and expectations, with fluid patches that take care of bugs, issues, complaints and bring balance across the board, and some day switch to new Engine, rather than play this shit that hasn't seen major patch in AGES, while we wait for miraculous engine update for years to come.

What you're saying doesn't make any sense, the engine update is the most critical stepping stone for the game to stay alive in the long run!

no matter how much people suggest, Not only are you developing for a game thats over 8+ years old at this point. but the game is physically at its limit in what it can push for. bigger districts, more this or that etc etc and player numbers needs a better engine and server infrastructure improvements.

its been left for so long that the games issues has spiraled into a plethora of critical issues. its a stepping stone process. and sadly with a small team. a dedicated community it will take time. hell most of us have waited years anyways whats it worth waiting another couple more!

Edited by DiBBz
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Posted (edited)

 

On 6/26/2020 at 10:44 PM, Nerima said:

It's not the engine doomed apb, g1 did. If they have released new engine in 2014 (like they originally promised), or okay 2015, or even 2016, that would be fine.

But instead of this they stretched the developement for long 4 years, and i still believe that at some point they completely stopped it an decided to release the game on colsoles and milk the shit out of it without any interactions with playerbase, saying that they are doing something from time to time.

What LO doing now is finishing what must be finished and actually ressurecting the game.

 

But enough of thess lyrics, there is actually the other side of the coin

New engine is not only about optimization or slightly better graphics, its also about content creation.

Engine update will facilitate the process of game expansion for developers. I remeber blogpost 'bout that, dont think i'll be able to find it now, but the main idea from there is: "apb's code is a mess (you must be naive or new to not be aware of that) that extremely difficult if not impossible to edit, expand, or troubleshoot, new engine will fix that with new ground-up code"

I still remember Tiggs stating that the beta of UE will be paywalled behind premium...they had like 1-2 devs at that point, engine nowhere near ready for years but they were still spewing their money baits.

Edited by PepeHands

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Yep the "most critical stepping stone" are now closed too. Nice "start" for apb Re-Reloaded. Cant wait to read news about the fail start about the Beta.  A totaly mess. Anyways i dont care anymore.

 

When its there its there then... it wont "safe" the game at all. 

 

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You didn't understand the core porblem:

 

Developing features for the current engine is tedious and bound to produce endless problems. Chaning over to the new engine will first of all allow major content patches. 

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12 hours ago, DiBBz said:

What you're saying doesn't make any sense, the engine update is the most critical stepping stone for the game to stay alive in the long run!

 

It's because people like you never see the real issues of the game. The game is shit because the current content we have is SHIT, weapons, cars, missions, players, map BALANCE is all clusterfuck.

I am not talking about creating new content because what we currently have is fucking gismo !

And don't tell me they couldn't fix few lines in code here and there without breaking something on the old engine to make the game more enjoyable.

Instead of making the ENgine update top priority, and fucking us over with PS4 release, it would be much better and healthier for the game community and it's players, to address BALANCE issues of various kinds years ago.

Like, here's what players are complaining about, lets delay entire engine for 6-12 months and put resources to fix what we can to keep players and salvage the game, giving us time to work on the engine. So even without the real new content that cannot be creating easily on the old engine, we would have a current content of the game in MUCH BETTER shape and maybe citadel would have more than one fucking district to play at.

 

Have you seen yesterday beta? It was a fucking disaster, I don't even want to tell how much they fucked up with logging so players couldn't actually even try. I am talking about 60 FPS when there is more than 10 people in the map, and GLOBAL stutter drops to 20FPS when anyone joins district. It's outrageous. It will take months if not years to fix this shit, meaning we have old content that's not properly balanced in any way that will have to keep players in the game. And I don't mind myself, I played for years and I love the game and I am used to its shit, but if new players leave in two days, soon there won't be even one district to play.

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Posted (edited)

The engine upgrade is not so much about "saving the game" as it is about making progress.

The "community choosen fixes" have turned this game into a heap of trash (yes they only listened to the people they wanted to listen to). I fear democracy wont really help fixing this game - so... let's make progress, aight?

 

23 hours ago, Resine said:

Like, here's what players are complaining about, lets delay entire engine for 6-12 months and put resources to fix what we can to keep players and salvage the game, giving us time to work on the engine. So even without the real new content that cannot be creating easily on the old engine, we would have a current content of the game in MUCH BETTER shape and maybe citadel would have more than one fucking district to play at.

 

Yeah, that'd be very easy to fix actually. Keep players segregated based on their experience and skill level. And make kills the most dominant factor in threat determination.

Edited by Sniperturtle
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7 hours ago, Sniperturtle said:

Yeah, that'd be very easy to fix actually. Keep players segregated based on their experience and skill level. And make kills the most dominant factor in threat determination.

You can't make a matchmaking with 300 players.

We have, Wizards>High Golds>Golds>Low golds>Gold/Silver>Gold wannabe>Silver and all the way to new players.

Then we have 2-3-4 People grouping vs 4-3-2 up till solo play. You can't balance that shit with a pool of 300, where each factor like the group count, skill, amount of people, mission type each plays a role in the matchmaking, there is simply not enough of pawns to make everyone happy.

 

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44 minutes ago, Resine said:

You can't make a matchmaking with 300 players.

40 players

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With all respect but I witness nothing from this post besides some BabyRage here and there and a little bit of salt and resignation. I do not have 1000hr spent in APB. I do not have years of experience witnessing the ups and downs of this game. But the main reason why I came back and want to invest time in this game again is because I see a future for this game. And the main reason why I see a future is the Engine Update renewing the game not only the graphics. There might be problems who are bigger (tbh I think Matt talked a lot about these in his last stream) but this upcoming overhaul is what brought me back. And I'm definetely not the only person thinking that way. So in terms of binding current players and attracting new players for this game LO has the correct prioritization. Besides that creating new content and changing more stuff in the current engine means more work in the translation process later.

I just red a couple of answers here and I saw people mentioning that a bunch of the problems this game has are engine related. And LO didn't said that the engine is the only problem this game has.

Quote

The game is shit because the current content we have is SHIT, weapons, cars, missions, players, map BALANCE is all clusterfuck.

Well I use the standard assault rifle and not feeling disadvantaged that much in fights. Also don't understand how LO is supposed to fix their "players". They fixed weapons balancing at least from my perspective. A couple of years ago I struggled against experienced players much more. I like the cars too.

I guess some individuals just have some kind of desire to badmouth even good things for no reason, or for attraction or because they had a bad day. But most of the community appreciate what LO does and I guess for good reasons.

 

Merged.

 

On 6/28/2020 at 3:50 AM, ❤ MonaSux ❤ said:

Yep the "most critical stepping stone" are now closed too. Nice "start" for apb Re-Reloaded. Cant wait to read news about the fail start about the Beta.  A totaly mess. Anyways i dont care anymore.

 

You wouldn't be here if you didn't care.

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Posted (edited)

I am among the people who haven't touched this game in almost 10 years and came back after hearing about the engine upgrade.

And stuck around since I saw the admirable devotion and passion LO has for this game. One of the most beautiful comeback stories I have witnessed in over 30 years of gaming.

 

Whether or not the engine actually needs an overhaul is not as relevant as the implications this project sends.

If a 10 years old game gets a massive engine upgrade, it tells players all of these things:

  • we care about this game
  • we take this seriously
  • it's not just a quick cash grab
  • we have a lot of future plans for this game
  • it's worth investing your time into this game because we will support and expand on it

Because why else would a company undertake such a massive project for a 10 years old game.

And that's what brings back players and gives them confidence in investing their precious life time into this game.

Edited by EXCIDIVM
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On 6/28/2020 at 12:04 PM, Resine said:

 

It's because people like you never see the real issues of the game. The game is shit because the current content we have is SHIT, weapons, cars, missions, players, map BALANCE is all clusterfuck.

I am not talking about creating new content because what we currently have is fucking gismo !

And don't tell me they couldn't fix few lines in code here and there without breaking something on the old engine to make the game more enjoyable.

Instead of making the ENgine update top priority, and fucking us over with PS4 release, it would be much better and healthier for the game community and it's players, to address BALANCE issues of various kinds years ago.

Like, here's what players are complaining about, lets delay entire engine for 6-12 months and put resources to fix what we can to keep players and salvage the game, giving us time to work on the engine. So even without the real new content that cannot be creating easily on the old engine, we would have a current content of the game in MUCH BETTER shape and maybe citadel would have more than one fucking district to play at.

 

Have you seen yesterday beta? It was a fucking disaster, I don't even want to tell how much they fucked up with logging so players couldn't actually even try. I am talking about 60 FPS when there is more than 10 people in the map, and GLOBAL stutter drops to 20FPS when anyone joins district. It's outrageous. It will take months if not years to fix this shit, meaning we have old content that's not properly balanced in any way that will have to keep players in the game. And I don't mind myself, I played for years and I love the game and I am used to its shit, but if new players leave in two days, soon there won't be even one district to play.

i've played the game for 4k+ hours and have played since closed beta for months at a time on and off through out the years since the game went open. im very well aware whats wrong with the game.. don't sit there and say i don't know.. you're absolutely daft if you assume anything other than the engine upgrade is the real reason why the game is in your definition "shit" if you find it shit why you here.

the engine upgrade needs to come ASAP otherwise coding for the game is going to get more hectic. scaling opportunity for the game wont improve. and more importantly easier debugging and engine tools will be available to use. you act like you've been waiting over a decade.. content isn't going to streamline or improve your performance on the PS4. or the xbox.

did you play when APB came out of closed beta testing.. and it had absolutely 0 anti cheat software running for a good 6 months... your priorities are so wrong is baffling! 

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Coding already proven for ten years that when you fix one thing two or more break and make things worse.

 

"engine upgrade is bad just fix things" - thread keeps going on n on having to state the obvious that new games need new engines etc.

 

me "............like seriously? what?  this still? "

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No one denies that actually having the EU would obviously be better than not.

However it's missing the whole point of why it will ultimately have more negative impact.

It's just not feesable. To grand of a task. Games are created with a certain span of life in mind.

You want to fill that time with content to get your worth out of it. You cannot run on fumes for years. Hoping to make it all back in the end when it is statistically the least profitable stage.

This is not LOs fault. I've said before they are doing an admirable job. Just the demon they inherited.

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My kid is grow up already, where this freaking engine? Still come? Jesus Christ.

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On 7/1/2020 at 11:12 PM, DiBBz said:

i've played the game for 4k+ hours and have played since closed beta for months at a time on and off through out the years since the game went open. im very well aware whats wrong with the game.. don't sit there and say i don't know.. you're absolutely daft if you assume anything other than the engine upgrade is the real reason why the game is in your definition "shit" if you find it shit why you here.

the engine upgrade needs to come ASAP otherwise coding for the game is going to get more hectic. scaling opportunity for the game wont improve. and more importantly easier debugging and engine tools will be available to use. you act like you've been waiting over a decade.. content isn't going to streamline or improve your performance on the PS4. or the xbox.

did you play when APB came out of closed beta testing.. and it had absolutely 0 anti cheat software running for a good 6 months... your priorities are so wrong is baffling! 

Why I still play? I just join here and there for few rounds with 1-2 friends where we mostly talk over Voip and pop some kills laughing at what's left of APB.

 

I had a very clear priorities how to handle this game from the moment I played first time during RTW times and that did not change after 5k hours:

 

Core functions:

High quality anti-cheat - that we almost had but lost it,

High quality servers - It was a true clusterfuck with G1, we started at shit servers, then we had DDOS, we were fucked over with Overkill... But I think what we have now is quite playable actually.

Mission balance - don't even try to tell me that objectives position, mission duration, mission type, executing task duration, final stages, running at last minute and what not are in any way balanced,

Weapon balance - I hate current ideology with high RNG weapons, and even after that there are clear superior weapons and trash tier with almost nothing in-between,

Map balance - There was this massive thread years ago, about possible solution to fixing camp spots all around Finacial and Waterfront, that was just barely a tip of an iceberg of possible solution to avoid heavy spot advantage.

Re-spawn system - Oh boy, this one is heavy one, I think we almost had it, but car spawners fucked it up. I mean personally all I ever asked about was that the spawn points were objective related with differentiated distance in accordance to objective type. Meaning for an example, if defenders could never spawn closer than 200meters from the objective to avoid "endless fightclub" attackers should spawn around 120m or so, with evening it out during final stages like takeouts. Obviously with other type of missions with no objectives, it would be players that defined "no spawn range", finally featuring that the spawns always happen on the opposite world direction cycling 15 degrees clock-wise every x amount of time, to assure that we never cross paths on the spawn, to make siding somehow equal, to provide people with possibility to predict opponent spawn point instead of it being full random. I mean, how many times did you kill a guy while flanking around the building to get rest of the team only to die from the guy you killed in the first place 10 seconds later, because he had lucky spawn healthy 130meters from objective, meaning 90m or so from you shooting quick 2 NHVR rounds in your back?

Mod balance - I think there are mods that should never be in the game, like Car Bomb - guy chasing you around in his Tank on suicide mission you can't easily destroy killing you with single button press if he happened to be dying? High Fuel is what started entire cargameplay together with 4v4 that exists only to milk money from players, blow torch that can overfix almost anygun, use-able items that you can't really use because you never get enough of them from the mission, with only balanced one and use worthy being satchel charge, while shield is just broken. Almost instantly deployed  - peak a boo style handy wall that needs like 3 or 4 clips from average gun to be destroyed? Obviously our favorite legal wallhack - Spotter savior of the all.

Matchmaking - this one is a tough nut, You had a game with high skill gap between any given level, low player pool, small districts, and trash abusing any system that was ever created to sort it out.

Years ago I offered, that the rewards standing/ $$ / JT / G1 should be given in accordance to district thread level, so players would actually try to get them instead of hard locking them what's half killed this game in the past. Also, enf vs enf, crim vs crim could double potential player pool and could easily fit into the lore of APB, but well we will never know now.

Performance - I assume, the old engine was too limited to do anything about it. But I would love to look into what can be made to help players with low gaming configs.

 

Bonus function:

ARMAS - The game can't live on pennies alone, we would need some fresh juice to the store to keep living, cars, guns(carefully here, not 20 different boxes), outfits.

 

Boom - All these points, if I was responsible for keeping this game alive, I would use the first 1-2 years of this game to focus solely on these points, to make the game clean of trash and anything that might be annoying to deal with. So people would enjoy it more, they would stay longer, and hopefully threw some cash to keep it going.

 

While having all that accomplished, hopefully majority of players relatively happy, the time would come for the game expansion and there it is, a time to introduce Engine Upgrade, that is needed to further improve the game and add new and fresh content for years to come.

 

Now, why did I said that Engine is the worst that happened to APB? Because even if it was needed timing was not in our favor. The game was left in pile of shit for years, with absolutely nothing, no major fixing, balance providing patch of any kind that didn't improve game experience, if anything made it worse, because if G1 added some shit they never changed/fixed/removed it in favor of how badly it merged with the game.

 

Look what we got, a 10 years old game with thousands of issues, problems, bugs that await miraculous Engine Update - that's locked behind soon-tm, the last beta relieving major performance issues no where near ready to be introduced, and even if it did hit the servers this year hopefully speaking. Devs would need another years to fix all the issues I mentioned, before we could even think about new content and all that with what? Last time I checked during peak times I could play at single Silver district with 80 people?

 

I love the lore of the game, the idea of gameplay entire world building and semi-competitive matches, but I hate what's become of it, with so much wasted potential, by the company that cared about money and had no clue or interest in keeping it running and now LO, trying to salvage whatever scraps they were leftover.

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Posted (edited)
On 6/30/2020 at 5:34 AM, CookiePuss said:

40 players

10*

 

*the random 10 people that aren't already in a mission at best.

 

 

Engine update won't save APB. Stop being delusional. 

Edited by NotZombieBiscuit
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On 6/28/2020 at 4:04 AM, Resine said:

 

It's because people like you never see the real issues of the game. The game is shit because the current content we have is SHIT, weapons, cars, missions, players, map BALANCE is all clusterfuck.

I am not talking about creating new content because what we currently have is fucking gismo !

And don't tell me they couldn't fix few lines in code here and there without breaking something on the old engine to make the game more enjoyable.

Instead of making the ENgine update top priority, and fucking us over with PS4 release, it would be much better and healthier for the game community and it's players, to address BALANCE issues of various kinds years ago.

Like, here's what players are complaining about, lets delay entire engine for 6-12 months and put resources to fix what we can to keep players and salvage the game, giving us time to work on the engine. So even without the real new content that cannot be creating easily on the old engine, we would have a current content of the game in MUCH BETTER shape and maybe citadel would have more than one fucking district to play at.

 

Have you seen yesterday beta? It was a fucking disaster, I don't even want to tell how much they fucked up with logging so players couldn't actually even try. I am talking about 60 FPS when there is more than 10 people in the map, and GLOBAL stutter drops to 20FPS when anyone joins district. It's outrageous. It will take months if not years to fix this shit, meaning we have old content that's not properly balanced in any way that will have to keep players in the game. And I don't mind myself, I played for years and I love the game and I am used to its shit, but if new players leave in two days, soon there won't be even one district to play.

Please understand that a vast majority of us can tell you do not know anything about programming and how it works.

 

Also please understand that a beta means it is not a finished product and will have problems ESPECIALLY when the community ( us players ) told Little Orbit to go ahead anyways with the testing even though we knew there WOULD DEFINITELY be problems

 

And furthermore please understand that the community ( once again us players ) already explained more than enough times the past two years that WITHOUT AN ENGINE UPGRADE , APB PROBLEMS CAN NOT BE FIXED WHICH IS WHY IT IS A PRIORITY

 

On a personal observation , you keep putting the cart before the horse in your arguments and in doing so your suggestions/opinions could not possibly be done.

 

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Posted (edited)
On 7/5/2020 at 1:42 PM, Fortune Runner said:

Please understand that a vast majority of us can tell you do not know anything about programming and how it works.

 

Also please understand that a beta means it is not a finished product and will have problems ESPECIALLY when the community ( us players ) told Little Orbit to go ahead anyways with the testing even though we knew there WOULD DEFINITELY be problems

 

And furthermore please understand that the community ( once again us players ) already explained more than enough times the past two years that WITHOUT AN ENGINE UPGRADE , APB PROBLEMS CAN NOT BE FIXED WHICH IS WHY IT IS A PRIORITY

 

On a personal observation , you keep putting the cart before the horse in your arguments and in doing so your suggestions/opinions could not possibly be done.

 

 

Using "majority of us, community, us players" does not make your point valid.

Also, it's you who is rather clueless. Most of things I pointed out are balance issues, that needed some testing and changes in numeric values so they game could be in healthier shape during literally EOL while team focused all their effort on engine update - Assuming they added 20 brand new weapon from joker boxes that were buffed and nerfed left and right, I don't think it's something that cannot be done without engine update.

I will tell you in a way that even middle class monkey could understand,

APB most complained problems were cheaters, lack of any balance regardless any part of the game(cars, mods, weapons, missions, timers, you name it), poor servers, matchmaking and lack of new content.

Out of all these things we got better servers, that's it. All the balance issues could be fixed, probably even matchmaking could be improved to some degree, but nothing changed.

Since end of 2013 when Engine Update was announced, the game turned into a bloody sinking ghost ship, that occasionally got a new JokerBox gun, minor changes here and there and broken things, that made things even more unbalanced.

Then we had DDOS issues, weird DDOS protection that caused warping, going underground, stutter lags, high MS, hard Gold lock, all crazy shit that made more harm than good.

We got screwed with PS4 release, but hey what's done is done.

5 years later LO takes over,  2 years later we got first Open Beta test, that has MASSIVE performance issues, when there is more than 30 players. Here's the catch, when I do point it out, people say "man it's beta, it's supposed to be like that, yada yada yada" I could understand if it was early alpha 5 years ago, but not now after all this time, after I read through all the magical charts that promised god's performance, that are worthless toilet paper now.

 

The game hit 10 years mark, it's golden age lost forever, I do believe that one day engine will hit the servers if the game will live long enough, but look at current status

We lost anty-cheat that actually worked, balance of any kind is non existing, playerbase is so poor, that there is no hope for any kind of matchmaking. About engine update time line - my best guess is that if we will get working Asylum and Social at the end of the year, that would be great, maybe it will be finally implemented in 2021? Then bugs will happen, issues it's inevitable, time will be need to sort all this crap.

And then finally, developers will start fixing the game, but I am sure except matchmaking it won't happen. I am quite positive that they will push new content to attract players rather than fix what's broken.

 

I don't know how it was from their perspective, but with amount of shit they got from players and the fact that they packed their bags and left when realized there's not much cash to milk I assume it didn't work well for them.

From my perspective, of a player that spent thousands hours with friends playing the game. I would enjoy it much more with frequent balance updates, rather than play EOL game for half a decade with promised neverland that might never come.

 

I do know that LO tried their hardest to go through these hard times and I want this game to shine and live more than any other, I am full of doubts that this game get it's 2nd life.

Edited by Resine

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25 minutes ago, Resine said:

Using "majority of us, community, us players" does not make your point valid.

The truth that you do not know programming does coincide with the majority of us so in this case it does because it is a part of the whole.

Icing in itself is not part of the cake yet it makes a cake a cake as well.

 

You tossed a lot of  "facts" yet still fail to understand that it is not possible to fix what you complain about the way you are saying to do , because you are clueless to how programming works.

You can toss around any opinion you want , but that will still not change the limitations of what the current engine is programmed to do and handle which is why we (Little Orbit , SPCT , and us community players ) are testing the new engine upgrade.

How you believe the current fossil engine can be doing anything advanced that it was never made for without being upgraded to do so  is beyond me. ( it is the very thing you keep saying to do )

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Fortune Runner said:

The truth that you do not know programming does coincide with the majority of us so in this case it does because it is a part of the whole.

Icing in itself is not part of the cake yet it makes a cake a cake as well.

 

You tossed a lot of  "facts" yet still fail to understand that it is not possible to fix what you complain about the way you are saying to do , because you are clueless to how programming works.

You can toss around any opinion you want , but that will still not change the limitations of what the current engine is programmed to do and handle which is why we (Little Orbit , SPCT , and us community players ) are testing the new engine upgrade.

How you believe the current fossil engine can be doing anything advanced that it was never made for without being upgraded to do so  is beyond me. ( it is the very thing you keep saying to do )

proper balance doesn't require 2.1 to do, although frankly i don't believe orbit is capable of doing it on either engine

 

 

Edited by 404
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5 hours ago, 404 said:

proper balance doesn't require 2.1 to do, although frankly i don't believe orbit is capable of doing it on either engine

Resine was not just talking about gun balancing in itself , but new content including maps , bug fixes , matchmaking , pretty much anything and everything else that comes after a new engine upgrade to be able to do all of that. you can not put the cart before the horse.

 

As for Little Orbit's work and community opinions of gun balancing - there's a lot of opinions about how people want gun balancing but only Little Orbit knows what new guns in the future will be added.

Matt Scott mentioned in the past there would be new content after the engine upgrade and it is quite possible the current gun balancing will be unbalanced in our eyes due to not all the content being added immediately ( only Little Orbit would know for sure on that as well - but it is possible so I keep an open mind to this )

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On 7/5/2020 at 1:42 PM, Fortune Runner said:

Please understand that a vast majority of us can tell you do not know anything about programming and how it works.

[...]

 

11 hours ago, Fortune Runner said:

The truth that you do not know programming does coincide with the majority of us so in this case it does because it is a part of the whole.

Icing in itself is not part of the cake yet it makes a cake a cake as well.

[...]

I am pretty confused. Did you just devalue your own argument? What languages do you speak?

You tell him his base is wrong because he has no insight into programming while saying that this is true for the majority of you/us e.g. including you?

That would mean you would be just as unqualified to judge the situation? So how come you can tell but not he?

 

 

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23 minutes ago, TheJellyGoo said:

 

I am pretty confused. Did you just devalue your own argument? What languages do you speak?

You tell him his base is wrong because he has no insight into programming while saying that this is true for the majority of you/us e.g. including you?

That would mean you would be just as unqualified to judge the situation? So how come you can tell but not he?

 

 

you are definitely confused. I did not say that in the way you took it.

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