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The N-TEC reworks and its consequences have been a disaster for APB.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Noob_Guardian said:

Dunno, I almost never saw any comments about CQC capabilities needing nerfed on NTEC, until LO floated the idea. I think I saw 1 forum post about it and was surprised to see LO take the CQC approach.

You didn't see any comments about it's CQC capabilities? What about every single noob that keept complaining about jumpshooting, you know, the main feature that was supposed to get nerfed on the N-TEC all along? Jumpshooting is a strictly CQC ability for ARs, its where all the noobs kept getting caught lacking.

7 hours ago, Noob_Guardian said:

Yes, it's a ranged weapon, and supposed to be good at range, especially with "high skill players". Which is why they nerfed the CQC capabilities to ensure that it stays good at range while not being so good in CQC.

No, they kept it's mid-range capabilities for the most part, that also took slight a hit. The CQC capabilities didn't get "nerfed", they got destroyed. It was never that good in CQC (against any actual CQC weapon) and now its relatively useless even to what it was prior. Think of it like this, if someone with OCA doesn't hit you enough times to drop you before you can kill them with an N-TEC - they will die regardless of how good or bad the N-TEC is in CQC. Makes sense, right? What doesn't make sense is taking those examples and using them as your main argument for why the N-TEC is broken. Its laughable but its exactly how the N-TEC got nerfed regardless because LO don't take skilled players' opinions seriously enough.

7 hours ago, Noob_Guardian said:

If you think that the game is going to be an eternal cycle of gun nerfing you're wrong. LO already stated that isn't their intent, and it clearly wasn't G1's either. Its strawmanning and fearmongering. Did you know that most guns in the game got buffed? Not nerfed? They did nerf a number of the "stronger iconic" ones in the past. From CSG, RFP, FBW, NTEC, OBEYA, HVR. But they then buffed the "underpowered/underused" ones, STAR, SNUB, PDW, NFA, OCA, PMG, DMR, MISERY, CURSE, ALIG, ETC. The point of the previous balance changes, has clearly been to lessen the power level difference between certain weapons within the same niches so that there are more "options" to choose from. You think that APB, which is built on customization and player "choice" from modding a weapon to what suits your playstyle, to the 20+ weapons, should only have 3-5 weapons used by the majority of the playerbase? The point of the changes has been clearly to ensure that a wider variety of weapons are viable choices in more situations, and that player experience doesn't suck because of things like sprintshooting,qsing, jumpshooting, broken camp locations, and item running all of which they either removed or nerfed to some degree.

Except it will be, if selfish silvers with no aim keep crying on the forums enough like with the N-TEC. LO need to understand that a silver complaining on the forums doesn't understand the game and it's depth enough to know what really needs to be changed for the better. Almost all of them are looking after their own interest and thats the vast majority of players who can't see past their nose and can't think objectively about things. Its the exact same thing with the cheater situation. There is an entire group of APB players who live in their own fictional world where everyone is cheating even during EAC's reign of terror on cheaters. There are """cheater investigators""" on here who are nothing more but silvers disguised as people who know what they're talking about yet they haven't the slightest clue. 

 

The same thing applies to weapon balance and everything else. This is why other games carefully pick out who is in charge of what and who has a say in what. If you just listen to the common player, every game would be a disaster and that is where APB is currently headed.

 

And yes, every game which is even semi-competitive has it's meta and thats a fact that you cannot change regardless of how well you balance things. It is simply unavoidable. The best you can try to do is make the less popular weapons stronger and balance them around the strongest meta weapons, not the other way around. But this is the problem with APB, G1 kept shoving guns with random.org stats in the game, making everything more of a mess and now its up to LO to try and balance all that. But if you're balancing a game which already has a good meta that has enough versatility in it, you don't go breaking that in favor of the lesser weapons. You buff the lesser weapons and make them more usable. Don't fix what isn't broken because that has never worked for any game company ever. That is how you piss off your core playerbase until people start leaving. We've seen it many times with other games.

 

And I disagree wholeheartedly with anyone who wants to try and argue that jumpshooting and other arcade shooter mechanics shouldn't be a part of the game. I'm sorry but this isn't CS, this isn't a game where you can 1-tap people in the head for an instant kill. APB is based on mobility and movement even with ARs, that is where the skill comes from. Being able to move around quickly, dodge bullets, maneuver your surroundings to get cover, to get the drop on someone while they are unprepared, to push when the time is right to sync up with your team mates and so on. That is what makes APB fun to play, not sitting still with your gun so it doesn't bloom to the skies the moment you move an inch. If APB turns into that then it instantly loses it's charm and uniqueness combat wise.

 

Anyway, you keep contradicting yourself by selectively ignoring the fact that the FAR plays the same as the N-TEC and does the same things about as good, yet you are saying its perfectly fine to be in the game. Now you are saying that the player experience would suck because of things like jumpshooting, meanwhile the FAR and STAR both jumpshoot better than the pre-nerf N-TEC, let alone current N-TEC.

 

Please pick something and stick with it, this is getting old.

Edited by Flaws
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9 hours ago, PingOVER9000 said:

So maybe what it's better sense for make a comparing/ test,  it's how perfomance using the actual Ntec vs other Assaul rifles (this wknd I wil try put some numbers..)

 

I remain of this opinion, I bet if someone try to make some test for 2 hrs for ex using  one time NTEC and another time with FAR (of course quickswitching allowed), the actual NTEC will still perform better than FAR and any Assualt rifles, because the Ntec has still more versatilty and better adaptibility  because in game we have a better secondaries for closer ranges than longer ranges ( FBW, .45, Fr0G)

 

And I bet too, very few will post the results 😁

1 hour ago, Flaws said:

And I disagree wholeheartedly with anyone who wants to try and argue that jumpshooting and other arcade shooter mechanics shouldn't be a part of the game. I'm sorry but this isn't CS, this isn't a game where you can 1-tap people in the head for an instant kill. APB is based on mobility and movement even with ARs, that is where the skill comes from. Being able to move around quickly, dodge bullets, maneuver your surroundings to get cover, to get the drop on someone while they are unprepared, to push when the time is right to sync up with your team mates and so on. That is what makes APB fun to play, not sitting still with your gun so it doesn't bloom to the skies the moment you move an inch. If APB turns into that then it instantly loses it's charm and uniqueness combat wise

+1... Complety Agree with the fact killing these mechanics make weapons niche less less fun to play/ use, but above of this doesnt mean each weapons, or at least neither the majority unfortunately, are not even remotely balanced 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, PingOVER9000 said:

 

I remain of this opinion, I bet if someone try to make some test for 2 hrs for ex using  one time NTEC and another time with FAR (of course quickswitching allowed), the actual NTEC will still perform better than FAR and any Assualt rifles, because the Ntec has still more versatilty and better adaptibility  because in game we have a better secondaries for closer ranges than longer ranges ( FBW, .45, Fr0G)

 

And I bet too, very few will post the results 😁

Except the results from a test like this would mean literally nothing because you test in different conditions every time. The results of a test like this will mostly be based on your how good your opposition is, objective locations, attack/defense and how much you get snowballed with bad luck during your matches. If I beat up a bunch of silvers in easy defense missions with the NTEC and then when I equip my FAR I only get attacks against high tier golds then my results with the NTEC will obviously be better, but that does not mean that the NTEC is the better weapon of the two. 

 

And even if it was somehow possible to test the ARs in the same conditions then I can guarantee you that the ATAC and FAR are going to end up far stronger than the NTEC ever will in it's current state.

Edited by -Niw

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1 hour ago, -Niw said:

Except the results from a test like this would mean literally nothing because you test in different conditions every time. The results of a test like this will mostly be based on your how good your opposition is, objective locations, attack/defense and how much you get snowballed with bad luck during your matches. If I beat up a bunch of silvers in easy defense missions with the NTEC and then when I equip my FAR I only get attacks against high tier golds then my results with the NTEC will obviously be better, but that does not mean that the NTEC is the better weapon of the two. 

 

And even if it was somehow possible to test the ARs in the same conditions then I can guarantee you that the ATAC and FAR are going to end up far stronger than the NTEC ever will in it's current state.

In fact The reason for why I told at least 2 hrs of test with both the weapon and not just a pair of mission, it's for having a better results trying to eleminate "these different conditions", of course higher the time, better there will be the data at the end.

 

Then if some missions are imba for locations/teamates one may have the "smart thought" of not counting it or may let it in case happened the contrary were you perform well because opponents team are weak than yours.

I want not disagree the actual balancing of teams during a  matchmaking it isnt exactly well done.

 

Then if u have so much problem against "high tier players", they usually are just playing as premade and I feel like "your guarantee smell of false" not only  because you havent already tested it, but also because u seem quite  biased side.

 

In case someone will make some tests..Probabily I made a bad suggestion, not because of the nature of test, but I guess it will be quite difficult to understand if one is impartial (such as myself) or dishonest when posting them.

 

Bye

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3 hours ago, Flaws said:

You didn't see any comments about it's CQC capabilities? What about every single noob that keept complaining about jumpshooting, you know, the main feature that was supposed to get nerfed on the N-TEC all along? Jumpshooting is a strictly CQC ability for ARs, its where all the noobs kept getting caught lacking.

No, they kept it's mid-range capabilities for the most part, that also took slight a hit. The CQC capabilities didn't get "nerfed", they got destroyed. It was never that good in CQC (against any actual CQC weapon) and now its relatively useless even to what it was prior. Think of it like this, if someone with OCA doesn't hit you enough times to drop you before you can kill them with an N-TEC - they will die regardless of how good or bad the N-TEC is in CQC. Makes sense, right? What doesn't make sense is taking those examples and using them as your main argument for why the N-TEC is broken. Its laughable but its exactly how the N-TEC got nerfed regardless because LO don't take skilled players' opinions seriously enough.

Except it will be, if selfish silvers with no aim keep crying on the forums enough like with the N-TEC. LO need to understand that a silver complaining on the forums doesn't understand the game and it's depth enough to know what really needs to be changed for the better. Almost all of them are looking after their own interest and thats the vast majority of players who can't see past their nose and can't think objectively about things. Its the exact same thing with the cheater situation. There is an entire group of APB players who live in their own fictional world where everyone is cheating even during EAC's reign of terror on cheaters. There are """cheater investigators""" on here who are nothing more but silvers disguised as people who know what they're talking about yet they haven't the slightest clue. 

 

The same thing applies to weapon balance and everything else. This is why other games carefully pick out who is in charge of what and who has a say in what. If you just listen to the common player, every game would be a disaster and that is where APB is currently headed.

 

And yes, every game which is even semi-competitive has it's meta and thats a fact that you cannot change regardless of how well you balance things. It is simply unavoidable. The best you can try to do is make the less popular weapons stronger and balance them around the strongest meta weapons, not the other way around. But this is the problem with APB, G1 kept shoving guns with random.org stats in the game, making everything more of a mess and now its up to LO to try and balance all that. But if you're balancing a game which already has a good meta that has enough versatility in it, you don't go breaking that in favor of the lesser weapons. You buff the lesser weapons and make them more usable. Don't fix what isn't broken because that has never worked for any game company ever. That is how you piss off your core playerbase until people start leaving. We've seen it many times with other games.

 

And I disagree wholeheartedly with anyone who wants to try and argue that jumpshooting and other arcade shooter mechanics shouldn't be a part of the game. I'm sorry but this isn't CS, this isn't a game where you can 1-tap people in the head for an instant kill. APB is based on mobility and movement even with ARs, that is where the skill comes from. Being able to move around quickly, dodge bullets, maneuver your surroundings to get cover, to get the drop on someone while they are unprepared, to push when the time is right to sync up with your team mates and so on. That is what makes APB fun to play, not sitting still with your gun so it doesn't bloom to the skies the moment you move an inch. If APB turns into that then it instantly loses it's charm and uniqueness combat wise.

 

Anyway, you keep contradicting yourself by selectively ignoring the fact that the FAR plays the same as the N-TEC and does the same things about as good, yet you are saying its perfectly fine to be in the game. Now you are saying that the player experience would suck because of things like jumpshooting, meanwhile the FAR and STAR both jumpshoot better than the pre-nerf N-TEC, let alone current N-TEC.

 

Please pick something and stick with it, this is getting old.

 

I had people jumpshooting from corners at 25-40m to crouch fire lol, it wasn't just a cqc thing for people to jump from corners. I don't consider jumpshooting to be a "purely cqc" type thing, as multiple weapons that can jump shoot, can do so further than 10m (S1NA, SCOUT). As I said before (ages ago), im fine with the jump shooting nerf, however I feel they may have done to much with max bloom, however I won't "complain" about it either.

 

Most other games don't pick players in the community nor competitive scene to decide balance. I don't know which games you're getting at saying "only specific skilled people i feel should have a say should have a say", but that's not reality for the majority of games out there, nor should it be. Had it been, we'd never had removed jump shooting (and yes, shooting 80m with a sniper and hitbox scanning someone is broken and unbalanced, and would have required more than G1's hitbox bandaid fix to actually fix by raising EVERY form of cover), sprint shooting (which messed with the games player determining system to make it so you didn't hit when you fired on the player), because we had many more "high skill" people advocating for such broken things to "stay" rather than be fixed. Yes, these things were fixed for very good reason. Regardless of how much of a "less fun sandboxy" game you claim that such things made APB, those "features" were broken. My issue with jumpshooting was SCOUT jump shooting, though S1NA jumpshooting is a bit borked off the wall as well.

 

FAR doesn't play the "Same" as NTEC. STAR and FAR play much more similar to eachother than to the NTEC. "About as good" but not AS good, key difference there. STAR and FAR are almost identical in playstyle and handling. I don't get where you think FAR is an ntec, but literally look at the STATS on APBDB and you'd see you're wrong. Unless you're going to claim the STAR functions the same as an NTEC, which it doesn't, there's no reason to say the FAR is the same as the NTEC. At which point your claim would easily be refuted because STAR is clearly not the same as the NTEC. But i guess you can hold your opinions regardless of statistical fact.

 

Your earlier pictures showed the NTEC had worse jump shooting accuracy than the other two, which seems to have been the point of the change as well as worse max bloom (which we also know the NTEC had a little bit worse than either). Simply posting a pic saying "everything is fixed look at these reticules" when it's clear that the point of the changes was in fact to make NTEC jump shooting and SPRAY "worse" doesn't indicate anything is "wrong". You can say "these weapons still jumpshoot better than ntec, why" but you also understand that both are more CQC aligned than midrange (though FAR is more accurate at midrange than STAR slightly) and the point of the change seems to have been to do exactly that. Ensure STAR/FAR are better in cqc, while NTEC is better at range but not CQC. Now, saying "well ntec was fine before" doesn't refute anything, LO and G1 had all the stats they felt they needed to change the gun. You're arguing with me showing basic bloom pictures and acting like it proves your point, when all it does is show that LO did exactly what they wanted to do. So please, provide a compelling suggestion in "game suggestions" as to why the NTEC is "bad" now, and should be reverted.

 

 

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For what its worth, the FAR is currently the best AR in the game.

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5 hours ago, CookiePuss said:

For what its worth, the FAR is currently the best AR in the game.

Ntec is still performing better in medium ranges and have a better quickswitching/choice pool with secondaries.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Noob_Guardian said:

 

I had people jumpshooting from corners at 25-40m to crouch fire lol, it wasn't just a cqc thing for people to jump from corners. I don't consider jumpshooting to be a "purely cqc" type thing, as multiple weapons that can jump shoot, can do so further than 10m (S1NA, SCOUT). As I said before (ages ago), im fine with the jump shooting nerf, however I feel they may have done to much with max bloom, however I won't "complain" about it either.

 

Most other games don't pick players in the community nor competitive scene to decide balance. I don't know which games you're getting at saying "only specific skilled people i feel should have a say should have a say", but that's not reality for the majority of games out there, nor should it be. Had it been, we'd never had removed jump shooting (and yes, shooting 80m with a sniper and hitbox scanning someone is broken and unbalanced, and would have required more than G1's hitbox bandaid fix to actually fix by raising EVERY form of cover), sprint shooting (which messed with the games player determining system to make it so you didn't hit when you fired on the player), because we had many more "high skill" people advocating for such broken things to "stay" rather than be fixed. Yes, these things were fixed for very good reason. Regardless of how much of a "less fun sandboxy" game you claim that such things made APB, those "features" were broken. My issue with jumpshooting was SCOUT jump shooting, though S1NA jumpshooting is a bit borked off the wall as well.

 

FAR doesn't play the "Same" as NTEC. STAR and FAR play much more similar to eachother than to the NTEC. "About as good" but not AS good, key difference there. STAR and FAR are almost identical in playstyle and handling. I don't get where you think FAR is an ntec, but literally look at the STATS on APBDB and you'd see you're wrong. Unless you're going to claim the STAR functions the same as an NTEC, which it doesn't, there's no reason to say the FAR is the same as the NTEC. At which point your claim would easily be refuted because STAR is clearly not the same as the NTEC. But i guess you can hold your opinions regardless of statistical fact.

 

Your earlier pictures showed the NTEC had worse jump shooting accuracy than the other two, which seems to have been the point of the change as well as worse max bloom (which we also know the NTEC had a little bit worse than either). Simply posting a pic saying "everything is fixed look at these reticules" when it's clear that the point of the changes was in fact to make NTEC jump shooting and SPRAY "worse" doesn't indicate anything is "wrong". You can say "these weapons still jumpshoot better than ntec, why" but you also understand that both are more CQC aligned than midrange (though FAR is more accurate at midrange than STAR slightly) and the point of the change seems to have been to do exactly that. Ensure STAR/FAR are better in cqc, while NTEC is better at range but not CQC. Now, saying "well ntec was fine before" doesn't refute anything, LO and G1 had all the stats they felt they needed to change the gun. You're arguing with me showing basic bloom pictures and acting like it proves your point, when all it does is show that LO did exactly what they wanted to do. So please, provide a compelling suggestion in "game suggestions" as to why the NTEC is "bad" now, and should be reverted.

 

 

People jumpshotting you at 25-40m with the ntec? Flaws is specificly talking about the NTEC. Yes it is PURELY cqc. Why do you keep bringing up other weapons whenever someone makes a point? What relevance does jumpshots with the scout have?

 

A lot of competitive games are balanced around the high end/pro scene of things. More then you probably realize. As i've stated before League of Legends is a prime example of that. For example Talon (an assassin) got one of his abilities nerfed because pro players were able to sustain extremely well in lane. The reason they removed the jumpshot on the scout was because they "claimed" it was a unintended bug. Just because higher skilled players are advocating for it doesn't mean that the company was listening. Which CLEARLY they weren't.... shocker. Those features weren't broken at all borus. You can't handle tracking someone moving in an arced direction that they can't move because they're airborne? 

 

The Far plays alot more like the ntec then you think bud. The ntec and the far share the same ttk and fire interval. Which if you want to believe it or not is what makes the ntec a strong gun. Which is why people like the far because it functions like the ntec in that sense. Just because its bloom recover isn't as good doesn't matter because it doesn't have a burst in bloom after x number of shots.

 

Lol ok. You're really going to try and argue that the Star and the Far are more designed for cqc than mid range? Thats what you're going to fall back on now? If thats the case then why even complain about the ntec to begin with. If the Star and the far are designed according to you to be more cqc aligned then why is the ntec being punished in mid range? You realize that the ntec was nerfed more than just cqc right? Its also strange how before you didn't really care about the cqc changes now you seem like you're defending them with you life. Here we go again with the stats to huh. Yes the stats that were taken from baylan shipping yard. What weapon stands out there alot? Oh the ntec you know why that is? Because baylan is a MID RANGED map. What weapon used to excel at mid range oh the ntec thats strange. No wonder it had the highest use rate. You also realize that baylan has no obj right? So there is never a need to switch weapons for any reason other than personally wanting to. People are there to just relax and get kills. That data/statistic is extremely flawed and you're an idiot if you think otherwise. Also it sounds like you're running out of any sort of arguing point based on your last sentence. I could go and make a post there but people like you and others will start making the same arguments as always. "It outclasses every other AR" even though you just stated that the far and star are more cqc. Or the idea where the ntec had "only 2 competitors". It will just drown it out per usual.

 

We are where we are today due to flawed and skewed testing along with people's inability to adapt to situations. You think high skill players/pros cry when they die to someone in a game and just give up? No. They learn from it and adapt. This is why games balance around the higher skilled players in competitive games because they don't go onto the forums and pout that x,y,z is so broken and needs to be nerfed and i'm not coming back till its fixed. Like i said before and i'll say it again borus. You've admitted that you're casual. You don't understand how people who truly enjoy and invest time into this game feel. You might understand if you were to stop playing other games at the same time and maybe were to actually try and win. Just because its not an E-Sport doesn't make it any less competitive. 

Edited by RespectThis
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Borus if you couldn't see what our issues were after 5 pages of this, you're never going to see it. You're never going to understand anything, because you will just deny anything. You don't want the Ntec to be in a usual state, because you just hate the gun, plain and simple. Don't lie anymore on this thread, you're really just so bad at it. Get the "stats" thing outa here, you still won't prove jack about anything. You say Flaws can't provide sufficient proof? Dude he's taking pictures, talking data. You bring in zero substance, and are actually useless towards this conversation. Basically just proving our points all along. The whiners who didn't like dying to it just wanted it nerfed to the ground. I'm glad you, and the other pleasant ones I've had time to adjust and mingle with are so. damn. pathetic. 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Noob_Guardian said:

I had people jumpshooting from corners at 25-40m to crouch fire lol, it wasn't just a cqc thing for people to jump from corners. I don't consider jumpshooting to be a "purely cqc" type thing, as multiple weapons that can jump shoot, can do so further than 10m (S1NA, SCOUT). As I said before (ages ago), im fine with the jump shooting nerf, however I feel they may have done to much with max bloom, however I won't "complain" about it either.

I was clearly talking about ARs and jumpshooting with ARs. The only exception to this is if you are 85 and they try to land 1 lucky shot to finish you off at mid-range but that is extremely situational. Which brings me to another point: Many silvers actually take cases like that (where you jumpshoot for 1 hit to finish someone off) and like to say that the N-TEC's jumpshooting is broken (or in most cases they call me a cheater for it). If you genuinely take examples like that and put them forward as to why a weapon should be nerfed, you don't deserve a voice on the matter. Fucking period, this is indisputable. I read people like that like an open book, they lack any type of awareness of their surroundings in-game.

9 hours ago, Noob_Guardian said:

Most other games don't pick players in the community nor competitive scene to decide balance. I don't know which games you're getting at saying "only specific skilled people i feel should have a say should have a say", but that's not reality for the majority of games out there, nor should it be. Had it been, we'd never had removed jump shooting (and yes, shooting 80m with a sniper and hitbox scanning someone is broken and unbalanced, and would have required more than G1's hitbox bandaid fix to actually fix by raising EVERY form of cover), sprint shooting (which messed with the games player determining system to make it so you didn't hit when you fired on the player), because we had many more "high skill" people advocating for such broken things to "stay" rather than be fixed. Yes, these things were fixed for very good reason. Regardless of how much of a "less fun sandboxy" game you claim that such things made APB, those "features" were broken. My issue with jumpshooting was SCOUT jump shooting, though S1NA jumpshooting is a bit borked off the wall as well.

This is just plain wrong. Actual good players never advocate for anything broken to remain in the game. And I don't mean your NA """good players""", but actual high skill players like we have on EU (very few of them still around nowadays).

Quote

If you want your game to be competitively played, then focus most on the top-level players. Talk to the best players -- people who play tournaments (if you are so lucky to have tournaments for your game). If you have a high-score leader-board, contact the top people on the list and pick their brain. However, if you want it to be more of a "casual game", then hand the game to random people, even people who've never played a video game before, and see what they do with it.

 

9 hours ago, Noob_Guardian said:

FAR doesn't play the "Same" as NTEC. STAR and FAR play much more similar to eachother than to the NTEC. "About as good" but not AS good, key difference there. STAR and FAR are almost identical in playstyle and handling. I don't get where you think FAR is an ntec, but literally look at the STATS on APBDB and you'd see you're wrong. Unless you're going to claim the STAR functions the same as an NTEC, which it doesn't, there's no reason to say the FAR is the same as the NTEC. At which point your claim would easily be refuted because STAR is clearly not the same as the NTEC. But i guess you can hold your opinions regardless of statistical fact.

 

Your earlier pictures showed the NTEC had worse jump shooting accuracy than the other two, which seems to have been the point of the change as well as worse max bloom (which we also know the NTEC had a little bit worse than either). Simply posting a pic saying "everything is fixed look at these reticules" when it's clear that the point of the changes was in fact to make NTEC jump shooting and SPRAY "worse" doesn't indicate anything is "wrong". You can say "these weapons still jumpshoot better than ntec, why" but you also understand that both are more CQC aligned than midrange (though FAR is more accurate at midrange than STAR slightly) and the point of the change seems to have been to do exactly that. Ensure STAR/FAR are better in cqc, while NTEC is better at range but not CQC. Now, saying "well ntec was fine before" doesn't refute anything, LO and G1 had all the stats they felt they needed to change the gun. You're arguing with me showing basic bloom pictures and acting like it proves your point, when all it does is show that LO did exactly what they wanted to do. So please, provide a compelling suggestion in "game suggestions" as to why the NTEC is "bad" now, and should be reverted.

You seem to be desperately grasping at straws here. The differences in the relevant stats between N-TEC (post-nerf) and FAR (for mid-range, which is strictly what we are discussing here) are so tiny that it doesn't realistically make a difference during gameplay.

  • HP dmg: N-TEC: 185 - FAR: 175
  • Per Shot Modifier: N-TEC: 0.65 - FAR: 0.60
  • Recovery Delay: N-TEC: 0.070 - FAR: 0.085
  • Recovery Per Second: N-TEC: 5.00 - FAR: 4.00

Some stats aren't even fair to compare to post-nerf N-TEC due to how badly its been butchered but I do not have access to exact pre-nerf N-TEC stats which were even closer. But this alone is enough to show just how identically they perform at mid-range. So when I say "about as good", I only say that because the gun isn't a reskin and the stats aren't 1:1 but they are extreeemely close to the point where that difference doesn't matter. Your "key difference" and your "statistical fact" right out the window.

 

But honestly, like @Abduct / Devote said, this discussion with you genuinely feels like a waste of time, unfortunately. No offense but I'm not sure that I'll bother responding to you further, depending on what you bring to the table.

Edited by Flaws
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9 hours ago, RespectThis said:

People jumpshotting you at 25-40m with the ntec? Flaws is specificly talking about the NTEC. Yes it is PURELY cqc. Why do you keep bringing up other weapons whenever someone makes a point? What relevance does jumpshots with the scout have?

Because he went on a rant about how jumpshooting should be brought back because "fun arcade feeling". That's the relevance, and hes complaining because NTEC jumpshooting got nerfed, but STAR and FAR "still can".

 

Quote

A lot of competitive games are balanced around the high end/pro scene of things. More then you probably realize. As i've stated before League of Legends is a prime example of that. For example Talon (an assassin) got one of his abilities nerfed because pro players were able to sustain extremely well in lane. The reason they removed the jumpshot on the scout was because they "claimed" it was a unintended bug. Just because higher skilled players are advocating for it doesn't mean that the company was listening. Which CLEARLY they weren't.... shocker. Those features weren't broken at all borus. You can't handle tracking someone moving in an arced direction that they can't move because they're airborne? 

Yes LOL, Overwatch is dumpstered from their high end/pro changes. So it's clear that even then there's problems with going with "pro scene" changes.

 

You mean jump shooting and pixel hitting someone whos crouched behind cover 40m+ away is balanced? It's not, lets not pretend that doing so is. It's why Scout can only jumpshoot roughly 20-30m away now semi accurately, because otherwise it would be broke.

This has nothing to do with "tracking in arched direction". Regardless, if you were hit once, and they jumped from the corner, you're generally going to have a harder time tracking than him because he knows where you are and you don't see him until hes already in air ready to fire the second shot (and likely going to hit that shot). So again, jump shooting wasn't balanced, no "hitting someone in an arc" isn't necessarily difficult, it's the obvious situations that doing so was done in which made it difficult to counter.

 

Quote

The Far plays alot more like the ntec then you think bud. The ntec and the far share the same ttk and fire interval. Which if you want to believe it or not is what makes the ntec a strong gun. Which is why people like the far because it functions like the ntec in that sense. Just because its bloom recover isn't as good doesn't matter because it doesn't have a burst in bloom after x number of shots.

I've considered the FAR a ntec/star hybrid, at least until the STAR got buffed to have the same recovery. Yes "far has the same ttk", that doesn't make it the exact same as the NTEC. Which is what FLAWS was saying. "FAR is litterally an NTEC reskin"

 

Quote

Lol ok. You're really going to try and argue that the Star and the Far are more designed for cqc than mid range? Thats what you're going to fall back on now? If thats the case then why even complain about the ntec to begin with. If the Star and the far are designed according to you to be more cqc aligned then why is the ntec being punished in mid range? You realize that the ntec was nerfed more than just cqc right? Its also strange how before you didn't really care about the cqc changes now you seem like you're defending them with you life. Here we go again with the stats to huh. Yes the stats that were taken from baylan shipping yard. What weapon stands out there alot? Oh the ntec you know why that is? Because baylan is a MID RANGED map. What weapon used to excel at mid range oh the ntec thats strange. No wonder it had the highest use rate. You also realize that baylan has no obj right? So there is never a need to switch weapons for any reason other than personally wanting to. People are there to just relax and get kills. That data/statistic is extremely flawed and you're an idiot if you think otherwise. Also it sounds like you're running out of any sort of arguing point based on your last sentence. I could go and make a post there but people like you and others will start making the same arguments as always. "It outclasses every other AR" even though you just stated that the far and star are more cqc. Or the idea where the ntec had "only 2 competitors". It will just drown it out per usual.

FAR and STAR were considered worse than NTEC, I felt the FAR was more of a bridge between NTEC and STAR, while the STAR was well, pretty much dumpster trash until it got buffed to be almost identical to the FAR. You said "well just buff star" others were always like "just buff star to compete with ntec". Well you want it to compete, you gotta make it compete then right? They made it better in Range to "better" compete with NTEC (which was literally listed as a reason for the buff in the first place). As for why I'm saying "it's more cqc" that's simply because maybe not you, others like to say "no STAR is fine, its more CQC, it shouldn't reach range so well as an excuse to let NTEC have no "real" competitors. You can say "well obeya and obir" but then that's ignoring the fact that we went through a period of almost a year with soley shotguns, snipers, and NTECs and if it wasn't waterfront, you'd have been lucky to think of an obir let alone see an obeya. Because well.... NTEC.

 

Maybe because I'd rather not have the ntec fully reverted to it's prenerf idiocy? Yes, NTEC outclassed every AR, it didn't matter if the STAR and FAR were considered to be more for CQC than mid, because the NTEC was still the better choice anyways.

 

Quote

We are where we are today due to flawed and skewed testing along with people's inability to adapt to situations. You think high skill players/pros cry when they die to someone in a game and just give up? No. They learn from it and adapt. This is why games balance around the higher skilled players in competitive games because they don't go onto the forums and pout that x,y,z is so broken and needs to be nerfed and i'm not coming back till its fixed. Like i said before and i'll say it again borus. You've admitted that you're casual. You don't understand how people who truly enjoy and invest time into this game feel. You might understand if you to stop playing other games at the same time and maybe were to actually try and win. Just because its not an E-Sport doesn't make it any less competitive. 

You clearly havn't seen pros complain on their twitch streams then have you? They do it all the time. You're right, they'll rarely ever go on forums and complain, but they'll be damned if they don't mention it and make their fanbase upset about the issue and have consequently have "gaming news sites" cover the topic. You say "pro players don't complain about things in game" and now you know why G1 and LO don't listen to "pros" because if they did, no problem in APB would be fixed, because no issues would be brought up.

 

Oh wait, "pros" in APB complain about ATAC, remote det, spotter, nfas, and hvr. My bad, maybe you're right, they should stop complaining and pouting about such things, they're fine as is, or maybe they're not pros at all.

 

"You don't understand how people feel who enjoy and invest time into this game feel". You mean my 4.7k hours don't indicate that I actually enjoy and have invested time in this game? No, clearly i know nothing. I'm just a filthy casual who wants to play for fun because he realizes at the end of the day the "you win" on the screen means nothing. I play just fine against some of the hardest players in the server, so what. So what if I don't care to give my 100% at all times for a video game which is meant to be played for FUN. If you want to go and put 110% in 24/7 go ahead. But don't complain about me having a voice simply because I don't care to put 110% into APB at all times "to win".

 

Merged.

 

8 hours ago, Flaws said:

I was clearly talking about ARs and jumpshooting with ARs. The only exception to this is if you are 85 and they try to land 1 lucky shot to finish you off at mid-range but that is extremely situational. Which brings me to another point: Many silvers actually take cases like that (where you jumpshoot for 1 hit to finish someone off) and like to say that the N-TEC's jumpshooting is broken (or in most cases they call me a cheater for it). If you genuinely take examples like that and put them forward as to why a weapon should be nerfed, you don't deserve a voice on the matter. Fucking period, this is indisputable. I read people like that like an open book, they lack any type of awareness of their surroundings in-game.

This is just plain wrong. Actual good players never advocate for anything broken to remain in the game. And I don't mean your NA """good players""", but actual high skill players like we have on EU (very few of them still around nowadays).

 

You seem to be desperately grasping at straws here. The differences in the relevant stats between N-TEC (post-nerf) and FAR (for mid-range, which is strictly what we are discussing here) are so tiny that it doesn't realistically make a difference during gameplay.

  • HP dmg: N-TEC: 185 - FAR: 175
  • Per Shot Modifier: N-TEC: 0.65 - FAR: 0.60
  • Recovery Delay: N-TEC: 0.070 - FAR: 0.085
  • Recovery Per Second: N-TEC: 5.00 - FAR: 4.00

Some stats aren't even fair to compare to post-nerf N-TEC due to how badly its been butchered but I do not have access to exact pre-nerf N-TEC stats which were even closer. But this alone is enough to show just how identically they perform at mid-range. So when I say "about as good", I only say that because the gun isn't a reskin and the stats aren't 1:1 but they are extreeemely close to the point where that difference doesn't matter. Your "key difference" and your "statistical fact" right out the window.

 

But honestly, like @Abduct / Devote said, this discussion with you genuinely feels like a waste of time, unfortunately. No offense but I'm not sure that I'll bother responding to you further, depending on what you bring to the table.

HP DAMAGE: NTEC 185 - FAR 175 STAR 175

PER SHOT MODIFIER: NTEC .065 - FAR .60 - STAR .60

RECOVERY DELAY: NTEC 0.070 - FAR 0.085 - STAR 0.085

RECOVERY PER SECOND: NTEC 5.00 FAR 4.00 STAR 4.00

 

If you're going to make a case claiming the FAR and the NTEC are superbly similar, you may as well include the STAR as well, as it's almost identical to the FAR in a number of important stats.

 

You actually do have access to those stats unless you're talking about G1's initial NTEC rework which was pre-sept 2016 where they messed with the full auto bloom mechanic, which from the looks of it and other weapons, are an unlisted stat, as unique "weapon functions" aren't listed in APBDB, so we'll never really know the stats behind the change, only that the mechanic exists.

 

LO's most recent changes:

NTEC - Jump modifier old "12" new "30" (applied to all NTEC and ursus)

NTEC 5/URSUS - shot modifier cap old 1.6 new 2.4

 

Of those,

Jump Modifier: FAR "10" STAR "10"

Shot modifier cap: FAR "1.45" STAR "1.35"

 

Both STAR and FAR accuracy is at 10m is 18cm, NTEC is 24cm

Marksman modifiers of STAR is .50 FAR is .45 and NTEC .35

 

 

As I said, STAR is much closer to the FAR in performance than the NTEC. While you may then claim that far is so similar to NTEC they perform the same, we also know that that's not exactly true, they handle differently. The difference is that FAR is still rather effective because of its base accuracy and marksman modifiers. Looking at this information you should have  enough "information" to make your claim saying that the NTEC was indeed nerfed "too hard" and could accurately suggest a reversion, or at least a buff, to some of the changed stats from LO, so that the change is not so harsh. In the "suggestions" section of forums.

 

IF you do not wish to respond, that's fine. Good luck.

 

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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, Noob_Guardian said:

You mean jump shooting and pixel hitting someone whos crouched behind cover 40m+ away is balanced? It's not, lets not pretend that doing so is

bruh you're chatting shit...  

 

159168907479393639_5.jpg

 

Edited by lauo

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Noob_Guardian said:

snip

No, Flaws wasn't ranting about all of them. He replied to you talking SPECIFICALLY about the ntec. He said, "You didn't see any comments about it's CQC capabilities? What about every single noob that keept complaining about jumpshooting, you know, the main feature that was supposed to get nerfed on the N-TEC all along? Jumpshooting is a strictly CQC ability for ARs, its where all the noobs kept getting caught lacking." He was saying to you that A LOT of people complained about it. Aka he's calling you out for you inability to see whats actually happening in the game and on the forums.

 

Lol, imagine listing overwatch pro scene. That game has been a dumpster fire since launch. With what 2 heros released over the coruse of 1 year. Ya awful game to try to use as an example. Fun fact as well Blizzard is well know for catering to casuals AND power creeping. How about League of Legends, DOTA, CS:GO, Rainbow 6: Siege. All of which adjust around the higher level players/pros.

 

You're at fault if you can't kill someone jumpshotting. They have no control over their character. Its not like the OCA or a shotgun. Once you commit to that jumpshot there is no going back until your feet touch the ground. Plus it puts the person shooting outside off cover. There are plenty of ways to bait out the shot and force them to miss. This is where game knowledge comes into play.

 

What period was that where it was solely shotguns, snipers, and ntecs? When the obeya and obir were nerfed for whatever reason? Ok. You seem to be forgetting carbine, oscar, oca, and pmg. Not to mention even outside of the period the obeya and obir were nerfed they were still used. Yes even in financial. Maybe you don't want to admit it but there were plenty of obeyas in financial. The obir doesn't see much gameplay because its not the most appealing gun and its burst fire so you don't have as much control over it compared to tap firing. Hence why only a handful of people play it. So don't act like "Well because ntec" when there is a laundry list of other guns that were used. as i listed in the first part of this paragraph.

 

Yes it "outclassed" every AR lets think about that shall we.

-Cobra: Absolutely horrid on release. RP didn't even know what to do with it. In a better place now. More mid range than the atac but not by much.

-Misery: Same as the Cobra minus being in a better place (unless you consider being left in the locker a better place). Has the potential to be extremely strong.

-Aces Rifle: is more of a glorified smg if anything. With the ability to tap fire for close to mid range engagements.

-Condor/ATAC: It is a cqc designed assault rifle. It can function at mid range but its specialty is closer fights where you can full auto for quick kills.

-Frenzy: Reskinned Ntec on release. Later made it so it was a 7 stk instead of 6. Whats the point of using that over the Ntec/Far/Star.

-Old Glory/LCR: Old for sure. As in very slow rate of fire. Sure you get good accuracy at range as a trade off but you're better off using an obeya.

-ISSR-A: Same as the Cobra except it never got anything good. Its still unused because its just a horrible gun. Bet most people are wondering what gun this even is.

-Far: Takes from both the Star and Ntec to get a mixture of the two. Due to its matching ttk of the ntec it surpasses the Star and falls slightly short of the ntec.

 

So what are the issues with the above guns i stated? They're either A. designed for very close mid range or B. They are just absolutely awful. Which B. is pretty much the case for a majority of them. They were released that way. Its not the ntecs fault. Its the developers fault. Plus out of all of them the ONLY one that even comes close to combating the ntec efficiently is the FAR. You know why that is? Because it was the only one designed with the ntec in mind. Thats why it is strong. Thats what i mean when i say "tune it around the ntec". The Cobra, Atac, Condor, and Aces rifle are ALL more cqc oriented so of course they aren't going to compete as well against the ntec. Why should they? They excel at something the ntec doesn't. So you can sit in your fantasy thinking that the Ntec is always going to outclass every AR when in reality the only ARs that you could even consider being "outclassed" by it were the Far and the Star. TL:DR a majority of AR's apart from the ntec were absolute trash.

 

Where did i say pro players didn't complain? Nice of you to apparently make that up. There is nothing wrong with complaining about something. There is a HUGE difference between complaining about something and posting thread after thread after thread about nerfing this or that. I dont think you understand the difference between someone at a higher level playing complaining/frustration and then casuals complaining. You never see high skill level players here on the forums CREATING (keyword) threads about "nerf this" or "my friend is quitting apb because of this and im about to quit too". Most of the higher skilled players and vets like myself will usually share our thoughts on the matter. Those thoughts on said matters are never extreme. Like reducing the HVR damage.

 

Then there are the casual kids who (i shouldn't even have to explain) come on the forums and spout their horse****. About "the frag explosion radius is to big", "Explosive weapons are to op", "The ATAC isn't balanced and needs to be nerfed", or the biggest one as of recently "the pmg is broken". When you go into those threads you know what you see? A terrible reason as to why it should be nerfed. You see their forum creation date was earlier this year or last year. They have very little game knowledge at all. Their argument usually consists of something completely flawed. For example from the atac thread "The Atac feels very cheap to use. With a damage drop off of 50 meters, it breaks the balance of close ranged weapons because of how accurate, easy to control, and fast it is. With all of those things combined alongside a mobility sling perk". This is what i mean. It doesn't disrupt any sort of cqc balance. You just lost to an atac while using an SMG. Its like dying to an ntec in cqc when you're using an oca. Doesn't disrupt the balance at all. Average and casual players THINK they know what balance is.

 

You said as i just went and checked in the "PMG Nerf When?" thread you saying "I've played like 5-6k hours and I realized that winning means very little to me." and "You know why I don't play competitively anymore? Because I have no reason to. Between no actual competitive support for the game". So yes i don't think you truly understand how people who are investing a lot more hours than you and putting in more effort than you feel. Thats the difference borus. I'm not saying you don't have a voice at all. You just shouldn't be spouting your balancing reasons when you don't care about winning. Balancing is effecting the people who are putting in the effort more and wanting to win. Its not effecting you as much because you don't care about winning, you aren't putting in the effort, and because as you've said you consider the game casual.

Edited by RespectThis
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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Noob_Guardian said:

Because he went on a rant about how jumpshooting should be brought back because "fun arcade feeling". That's the relevance, and hes complaining because NTEC jumpshooting got nerfed, but STAR and FAR "still can".

 

You mean jump shooting and pixel hitting someone whos crouched behind cover 40m+ away is balanced? It's not, lets not pretend that doing so is. It's why Scout can only jumpshoot roughly 20-30m away now semi accurately, because otherwise it would be broke.

This has nothing to do with "tracking in arched direction". Regardless, if you were hit once, and they jumped from the corner, you're generally going to have a harder time tracking than him because he knows where you are and you don't see him until hes already in air ready to fire the second shot (and likely going to hit that shot). So again, jump shooting wasn't balanced, no "hitting someone in an arc" isn't necessarily difficult, it's the obvious situations that doing so was done in which made it difficult to counter.

How is this relevant when we're talking about the NTEC, the NTEC could never do anything that the other ARs couldn't do when it comes to jumpshots. 

 

3 hours ago, Noob_Guardian said:

Yes LOL, Overwatch is dumpstered from their high end/pro changes. So it's clear that even then there's problems with going with "pro scene" changes.

X to doubt. League of Legends is still one of the most popular games out there afaik and I also doubt that Overwatch has been "dumpstered from high-end/pro changes".

 

3 hours ago, Noob_Guardian said:

I've considered the FAR a ntec/star hybrid, at least until the STAR got buffed to have the same recovery. Yes "far has the same ttk", that doesn't make it the exact same as the NTEC. Which is what FLAWS was saying. "FAR is litterally an NTEC reskin"

 

FAR and STAR were considered worse than NTEC, I felt the FAR was more of a bridge between NTEC and STAR, while the STAR was well, pretty much dumpster trash until it got buffed to be almost identical to the FAR. You said "well just buff star" others were always like "just buff star to compete with ntec". Well you want it to compete, you gotta make it compete then right? They made it better in Range to "better" compete with NTEC (which was literally listed as a reason for the buff in the first place). As for why I'm saying "it's more cqc" that's simply because maybe not you, others like to say "no STAR is fine, its more CQC, it shouldn't reach range so well as an excuse to let NTEC have no "real" competitors. You can say "well obeya and obir" but then that's ignoring the fact that we went through a period of almost a year with soley shotguns, snipers, and NTECs and if it wasn't waterfront, you'd have been lucky to think of an obir let alone see an obeya. Because well.... NTEC.

The STAR is arguably worse than the NTEC, but the FAR definitely not. As I've mentioned before there are other reasons for the FAR not being as popular as the NTEC. The main reason is that the NTEC is a lot more accessible than the FAR. People also like the NTEC because it looks and feels like an AK-47 which is also popular in loads of other games. A lot of people also prefer the sound of the NTEC over that of the FAR. Just look at how many of the veterans still use the normal NTEC over for example the VAS reskin (which most of them will most likely have earned through the loyalty rewards) even though they perform exactly the same. 

 

3 hours ago, Noob_Guardian said:

You clearly havn't seen pros complain on their twitch streams then have you? They do it all the time. You're right, they'll rarely ever go on forums and complain, but they'll be damned if they don't mention it and make their fanbase upset about the issue and have consequently have "gaming news sites" cover the topic. You say "pro players don't complain about things in game" and now you know why G1 and LO don't listen to "pros" because if they did, no problem in APB would be fixed, because no issues would be brought up.

 

Oh wait, "pros" in APB complain about ATAC, remote det, spotter, nfas, and hvr. My bad, maybe you're right, they should stop complaining and pouting about such things, they're fine as is, or maybe they're not pros at all.

Because pressing 5 for free wallhack every 45 seconds and 850 damage with a single shot at any range are fine right? kdud. The ATAC can do almost anything that other ARs can do without having to control for recoil or bloom, but that is somehow fine by you while the NTEC isn't? Remote detonator "can be avoided" but it takes 0 skill or effort to give you kills and therefore it is dumb. Also, since when do people complain about the nfas lmao. 

 

2 hours ago, Noob_Guardian said:

LO's most recent changes:

NTEC - Jump modifier old "12" new "30" (applied to all NTEC and ursus)

NTEC 5/URSUS - shot modifier cap old 1.6 new 2.4

 

Of those,

Jump Modifier: FAR "10" STAR "10"

Shot modifier cap: FAR "1.45" STAR "1.35"

And this is exactly the problem that we are talking about. These stats on the NTEC used to be in line (slightly worse may I add) with the other ARs but now they are way off. This is also what @Flaws tried to demonstrate with the screenshots he posted earlier.

Edited by -Niw
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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, -Niw said:

How is this relevant when we're talking about the NTEC, the NTEC could never do anything that the other ARs couldn't do when it comes to jumpshots. 

Again, LO nerfed it because it did what the other rifles did did, and was still the "better" rifle.

Quote

X to doubt. League of Legends is still one of the most popular games out there afaik and I also doubt that Overwatch has been "dumpstered from high-end/pro changes".

You've clearly never played Overwatch competitively.

Quote

The STAR is arguably worse than the NTEC, but the FAR definitely not. As I've mentioned before there are other reasons for the FAR not being as popular as the NTEC. The main reason is that the NTEC is a lot more accessible than the FAR. People also like the NTEC because it looks and feels like an AK-47 which is also popular in loads of other games. A lot of people also prefer the sound of the NTEC over that of the FAR. Just look at how many of the veterans still use the normal NTEC over for example the VAS reskin (which most of them will most likely have earned through the loyalty rewards) even though they perform exactly the same. 

FAR was still worse than ntec, albeit slightly. The "ONLY" benefit it had over ntec was the higher base accuracy and accuracy modifier, where despite having to fire slower than ntec, you were still really accurate. If you look at the STAR/FAR in APBDB. You'd see that both the other rifles have nearly identical stats aside from ammo, marksman accuracy, modifier cap, and mag size.

 

Yes, the "ntec" is more accessible, however most "vets" have also bought a number of ARMAS weapons as well. If they felt the FAR was worth it, they likely would have bought one too.

 

Quote

Because pressing 5 for free wallhack every 45 seconds and 850 damage with a single shot at any range are fine right? kdud. The ATAC can do almost anything that other ARs can do without having to control for recoil or bloom, but that is somehow fine by you while the NTEC isn't? Remote detonator "can be avoided" but it takes 0 skill or effort to give you kills and therefore it is dumb. Also, since when do people complain about the nfas lmao. 

 

And this is exactly the problem that we are talking about. These stats on the NTEC used to be in line (slightly worse may I add) with the other ARs but now they are way off. This is also what @Flaws tried to demonstrate with the screenshots he posted earlier.

Actually yes, and if you don't like it, get a flare launcher for 3500 joker tickets and resup, and just spam it. I've never had issues while playing against players using spotter, in fact I don't think I've actually noticed being spotted before, maybe I play in a way that I don't really get spotted then? Beats me. HVR is fine, it's range is variable now due to accuracy so it really doesn't perform in cqc. ATAC is fine, its not overpowered, and its not broken, so why would I complain about it? Remote det may be "dumb" but it's generally a non issue unless you do things like "play on the road". If you see someone charging with a car with det, get away from it lol. It's not rocket science. People have been complaining about NFAS for ages, dunno where you have been. Get NFAS percs and Kev3 and watch the salt.

7 hours ago, -Niw said:

And this is exactly the problem that we are talking about. These stats on the NTEC used to be in line (slightly worse may I add) with the other ARs but now they are way off. This is also what @Flaws tried to demonstrate with the screenshots he posted earlier.

The screenshots barely proved anything as it simply shows the current difference between the NTEC and AR's. Showing that LO did exactly what they intended to. As such you've got to make a better case as to why it should be reverted or at the least have those modifiers which I posted so he has them, adjusted and buffed. Going "EVERYTHING IS 100% OKAY NOW!" *drops pictures* Doesn't "prove" any problem, it can be used as an example of a problem you "believe" exists, but you've gotta do more than that when suggesting a viable change.

 

I gave him/her the stats so that he could actually make a "factual" case as to why he/she feels it should be reverted or at least buffed to numbers that are still worse than original, but not nearly as strong. (Though I know he/she wants full reversion)

 

As I've said many times already, I'm not for reverting NTEC to pre-nerf LO stats, and i do feel they did go about it the wrong way for the bloom at the least and I had mentioned my concerns in the LO NTEC change thread back when. But I'm not going to go and make a buff thread asking for a full reversion of it, let alone a full reversion of every change back to G1's bloom rework, while leaving HB nerf intact.

 

Edited by Noob_Guardian

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On 6/10/2020 at 12:32 PM, Noob_Guardian said:

But I'm not going to go and make a buff thread asking for a full reversion of it, let alone a full reversion of every change back to G1's bloom rework, while leaving HB nerf intact.

So you're refusing to have it reverted along with not wanting it reverted when they wouldn't revert the hb change? Sounds like an actual use of a crutch there buddy. You realize that was the ONLY justified ntec nerf. Considering the damage on the ntec was slightly to high to permit the use of hb2 with no downsides. I find it pretty laughable that you are arguing that you want that unnerfed as well if it were to be reverted.

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, RespectThis said:

So you're refusing to have it reverted along with not wanting it reverted when they wouldn't revert the hb change? Sounds like an actual use of a crutch there buddy. You realize that was the ONLY justified ntec nerf. Considering the damage on the ntec was slightly to high to permit the use of hb2 with no downsides. I find it pretty laughable that you are arguing that you want that unnerfed as well if it were to be reverted.

I think you misread what I said, or misinterpreted what I meant. I said i don't want it reverted/buffed back to it's previous power level, let alone the powerlevel it had before it got HB nerfed. I don't want HB's nerf to be "undone" and I certainly don't want NTEC to far outshine every other option in the game simply because "it's versatile". If they decide to go from "12 -> 30" and take it down to like "18" or so for one change, and make the shot modifier "2.0" i'm not going to complain about it. But if they go and put it back to its exact powerlevel, especially pre-g1 initial nerf barring the HB change. Then yes, i'm going to have an issue with it.

 

I strongly disagree that the NTEC didn't warrant some rework/nerf. However, as i've said before, they may have taken this "latest" iteration a little too harshly.

Edited by Noob_Guardian

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1 hour ago, Noob_Guardian said:

I think you misread what I said, or misinterpreted what I meant. I said i don't want it reverted/buffed back to it's previous power level, let alone the powerlevel it had before it got HB nerfed. I don't want HB's nerf to be "undone" and I certainly don't want NTEC to far outshine every other option in the game simply because "it's versatile". If they decide to go from "12 -> 30" and take it down to like "18" or so for one change, and make the shot modifier "2.0" i'm not going to complain about it. But if they go and put it back to its exact powerlevel, especially pre-g1 initial nerf barring the HB change. Then yes, i'm going to have an issue with it.

 

I strongly disagree that the NTEC didn't warrant some rework/nerf. However, as i've said before, they may have taken this "latest" iteration a little too harshly.

For starters i didn't misread anything bud. Maybe you should go back and reread your own post. "But I'm not going to go and make a buff thread asking for a full reversion of it, let alone a full reversion of every change back to G1's bloom rework, while leaving HB nerf intact." You realize that statement means that you DON'T want it reverted without the hb change being reverted as well. The ntec wouldn't outshine every gun in the game. I've already gone over it in my other post. You can't actually argue the ntec is stronger than cqc weapons OR that it beats all the other AR's int he game when said weapons are a majority designed for cqc. Which the ntec is very poor in cqc situations. You can make it work but when players of the same level fight each other the ntec will lose everytime due to it lacking the cqc traits that things like the atac and aces rifle have. The Ntecs competition is very strong. Such as the Obeya, Far, and the scout as a few examples.

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35 minutes ago, RespectThis said:

For starters i didn't misread anything bud. Maybe you should go back and reread your own post. "But I'm not going to go and make a buff thread asking for a full reversion of it, let alone a full reversion of every change back to G1's bloom rework, while leaving HB nerf intact." You realize that statement means that you DON'T want it reverted without the hb change being reverted as well. The ntec wouldn't outshine every gun in the game. I've already gone over it in my other post. You can't actually argue the ntec is stronger than cqc weapons OR that it beats all the other AR's int he game when said weapons are a majority designed for cqc. Which the ntec is very poor in cqc situations. You can make it work but when players of the same level fight each other the ntec will lose everytime due to it lacking the cqc traits that things like the atac and aces rifle have. The Ntecs competition is very strong. Such as the Obeya, Far, and the scout as a few examples.

Then my intent was clearly off the mark with what was written, as I "meant" to not have HB reverted back for it to not effect NTEC because it needs the hb nerf.

 

We can argue all day about CQC, but as I said, im not going to argue for it to be buffed. I don't want it at the same power level as it was pre-nerf. Can it be buffed to an inbetween stat, and be balanced? Absolutely, but i disagree that the NTEC was "balanced". It was too versatile, and as such, it needed a clearer weakness or less versatility. IF "cqc" is meant to be its weakness, then there certainly shouldn't be a reason to make said weakness more obvious and exploitable, let alone complain if said weakness is more pronounced than before.

 

I was going to write a thing explaining this for the 20th time, but i'll simply counter your argument with this.

 

If NTEC "competition" was that strong against NTEC in cqc and midrange, then we would have seen Obeya, FAR, Scout, and other weapons moreso, than NTEC to counter the NTEC. But no such "competition" are as strong as another NTEC to compete against the ntec, hence why we have not seen obeya, far, scout, and other weapons used primarily, to counter ntec.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Noob_Guardian said:

Then my intent was clearly off the mark with what was written, as I "meant" to not have HB reverted back for it to not effect NTEC because it needs the hb nerf.

 

We can argue all day about CQC, but as I said, im not going to argue for it to be buffed. I don't want it at the same power level as it was pre-nerf. Can it be buffed to an inbetween stat, and be balanced? Absolutely, but i disagree that the NTEC was "balanced". It was too versatile, and as such, it needed a clearer weakness or less versatility. IF "cqc" is meant to be its weakness, then there certainly shouldn't be a reason to make said weakness more obvious and exploitable, let alone complain if said weakness is more pronounced than before.

 

I was going to write a thing explaining this for the 20th time, but i'll simply counter your argument with this.

 

If NTEC "competition" was that strong against NTEC in cqc and midrange, then we would have seen Obeya, FAR, Scout, and other weapons moreso, than NTEC to counter the NTEC. But no such "competition" are as strong as another NTEC to compete against the ntec, hence why we have not seen obeya, far, scout, and other weapons used primarily, to counter ntec.

It was balanced. Hence why you did see a variety of weapons. Reasons why you saw ocas, pmgs, hvrs, scouts, carbines. You really going to act as if none of those guns were ever/rarely picked? Also yes its competition was strong. People just didn't play it as much because, here's a thought, they preferred the feel of the ntec. Its not "to versatile" as you so claim. If it was NO ONE would ever use smgs, rfiles, or snipers. But that clearly wasn't the case. What about the shaw? Its literally an ntec in LMG form. Same with the NSSW. Just as easy to use and just as deadly. Why do people not use that as much? Because they PREFER the ntec. I mained the ntec because it was a great feeling gun. Same reason i mained the Obeya prior to that. They both are fun and strong guns to use. Just because you don't see everyone picking an obeya doesn't negate that its a strong counter. Again, why do you think the ntec is strong in cqc? Thats such a sad and weak argument point. You can't honestly think that the ntec is stronger than the oca, atac, pmg, or jg in cqc. You had to body stuff people with the ntec to get the min ttk. Thats assuming you don't get corner popped by a shotgun or sprayed down by an smg. The ntec has awful run and gun. Hence why the cqc weapons are strong against the ntec. Because thats where its biggest weakness WAS and is now even more exaggerated for whatever reason. Dying to an ntec in cqc is the PLAYERS fault. Just because the PLAYER couldn't handle beating it doesn't make it broken. Just means you're bad. End of story.

Edited by RespectThis

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Posted (edited)

 

22 minutes ago, Noob_Guardian said:

Then my intent was clearly off the mark with what was written, as I "meant" to not have HB reverted back for it to not effect NTEC because it needs the hb nerf.

 

We can argue all day about CQC, but as I said, im not going to argue for it to be buffed. I don't want it at the same power level as it was pre-nerf. Can it be buffed to an inbetween stat, and be balanced? Absolutely, but i disagree that the NTEC was "balanced". It was too versatile, and as such, it needed a clearer weakness or less versatility. IF "cqc" is meant to be its weakness, then there certainly shouldn't be a reason to make said weakness more obvious and exploitable, let alone complain if said weakness is more pronounced than before.

 

I was going to write a thing explaining this for the 20th time, but i'll simply counter your argument with this.

 

If NTEC "competition" was that strong against NTEC in cqc and midrange, then we would have seen Obeya, FAR, Scout, and other weapons moreso, than NTEC to counter the NTEC. But no such "competition" are as strong as another NTEC to compete against the ntec, hence why we have not seen obeya, far, scout, and other weapons used primarily, to counter ntec.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 6/9/2020 at 8:10 PM, Abduct / Devote said:

Borus if you couldn't see what our issues were after 5 pages of this, you're never going to see it. You're never going to understand anything, because you will just deny anything. You don't want the Ntec to be in a usual state, because you just hate the gun, plain and simple. Don't lie anymore on this thread, you're really just so bad at it. Get the "stats" thing outa here, you still won't prove jack about anything. You say Flaws can't provide sufficient proof? Dude he's taking pictures, talking data. You bring in zero substance, and are actually useless towards this conversation. Basically just proving our points all along. The whiners who didn't like dying to it just wanted it nerfed to the ground. I'm glad you, and the other pleasant ones I've had time to adjust and mingle with are so. damn. pathetic. 

I rest my case lol. You're really unaware of how weapon balance should work, as clearly proven by this and many other threads. Good day 🙂

Edited by Abduct / Devote
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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Abduct / Devote said:

 

I rest my case lol. You're really unaware of how weapon balance should work, as clearly proven by this and many other threads. Good day 🙂

 

If you want the NTEC buffed that badly, make a post in suggestions on Forums, with whatever "points" you have, and prove it already. You have given me no reason to believe that it didn't warrant any form of nerf. Not only that LO clearly had all the information they needed to nerf it this time, just as G1 had all the information it needed to nerf HB and rework it, even with you guys/gals saying it didn't need it. If you're upset about the information they have and wish to refute it. Then by all means, make an "NTEC buff" thread in the game suggestions sections of forums with all the statistical and factual bases you can imagine. Because all you've proven is that I'm a casual player and that I felt the NTEC wasn't balanced. Congrats, that again, proves nothing regarding the NTEC not needing any form of nerf.

 

The last "NTEC" rework thread was in FEBRUARY (page 6) of the suggestions forum, the NTEC changes on the DB are listed in MARCH. I find it very telling, that even with all the info you claim to have and how "outspoken" you 3 are about the NTEC, it seems NO-ONE has made a forum post in suggestions about buffing it (not even you 3) since the change. You seem to be extremely outspoken when it comes to arguing with anyone about it. But there's literal crickets when it comes to actually suggesting it through the proper channel for it to be fixed. It almost seems like you really just want to take out your anger, rather than try fixing the "problem". So Enjoy! And good luck in your crusade.

Edited by Noob_Guardian

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1 minute ago, Noob_Guardian said:

 

If you want the NTEC buffed that badly, make a post in suggestions on Forums, with whatever "points" you have, and prove it already. You have given me no reason to believe that it didn't warrant any form of nerf. Not only that LO clearly had all the information they needed to nerf it this time, just as G1 had all the information it needed to nerf HB and rework it, even with you guys/gals saying it didn't need it. If you're upset about the information they have and wish to refute it. Then by all means, make an "NTEC buff" thread in the game suggestions sections of forums with all the statistical and factual bases you can imagine. Because all you've proven is that I'm a casual player and that I felt the NTEC wasn't balanced. Congrats, that again, proves nothing regarding the NTEC not needing any form of nerf.

 

The last "NTEC" rework thread was in FEBRUARY (page 6) the NTEC changes on the DB are listed in MARCH. I find it very telling, that even with all the info you claim to have and how "outspoken" you 3 are about the NTEC, it seems NO-ONE has made a forum post in suggestions about buffing it (not even you 3) since the change. You seem to be extremely outspoken when it comes to arguing with anyone about it. But there's literal crickets when it comes to actually suggesting it through the proper channel for it to be fixed. It almost seems like you really just want to take out your anger, rather than try fixing the "problem". So Enjoy! And good luck in your crusade.

No, you're just really awkwardly selectively blind whenever I've made a point. Flaws and I showed great examples. You wanted us to first come to a Ntec based thread to debate this, you can't refute our points and you instead make inconsistent points/excuses for how it was "broken." Meanwhile, we HAVE shown how it was fine, but yeah you're just in your own lil world. It's ok, I know you're really bad at reading what we said and understanding anything. But honestly? I'm kind of tired of repeating the same thing over and over again. 

Again, you have a lot of faith in LO to know all about the game when vets have been playing for years and years, before they even came along. Get your head out of your anus and think for once in your life. Stop being silly. 

This argument will go nowhere because you refuse to acknowledge actual points/facts. Flaws and I have pointed stuff out on numerous occasions and you still haven't shown us jack to prove your points except falling back to "WELL LO SAID THIS SO MUST BE RIGHT." Yep, that's definitely how the world works. 

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9 minutes ago, Noob_Guardian said:

 Not only that LO clearly had all the information they needed to nerf it this time.

Just because you have the info doesn't mean you know how to use it. Its like having all the answers to a test. Doesn't mean you know how to do the operations. Also by that logic then people shouldn't be crying that the pmg hasn't been touched. Clearly its balanced if it hasn't been changed. They have the stats 5head.

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