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Simple changes for APB weapon balancing

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34 minutes ago, PvE said:

Can't be constructive without offering what weapon in specific your talking about.

Not deleting the NFAS might be a thing.

 

The comment was a fine example of how irritated people are about certain weapons, and I simply gave a nudge towards objectivity.

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I fully agree with the idea that carbine has RNG issues, and more recovery could certainly help since it often has to compete with weapons that do not suffer from bloom at all (or almost at all) such as PMG or OSCAR. I don't see the point of reducing its movement penalties but more accuracy in general is just what it needs right now.

 

However, I disagree with the idea suggestion making the NFAS 4 shots to kill, before pellet spread was introduced it was much harder to use despite its higher maximum damage, and it was far from meta. I also can't really suggest anything since it's not clear yet how the NFAS will behave once current shotgun changes hit live. The biggest issue with its current iteration is the 0.84 per ray scaling (in combination with 381 max damage) which is far too low for a weapon which can shoot such a large amount of pellets in a short time. 

 

Perhaps other changes to the very least used weapons would also come in handy, such as the Harbinger getting bumped up to 300-320 damage due to Clotting Agent prevalence.

Edited by Mojibaked

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1 minute ago, Mojibaked said:

I fully agree with the idea that carbine has RNG issues, and more recovery could certainly help since it often has to compete with weapons that do not suffer from bloom at all (or almost at all) such as PMG or OSCAR. 

 

However, I disagree with the idea suggestion making the NFAS 4 shots to kill, before pellet spread was introduced it was much harder to use despite its higher maximum damage, and it was far from meta. I also can't really suggest anything since it's not clear yet how the NFAS will behave once current shotgun changes hit live. The biggest issue with its current iteration is the 0.84 per ray scaling (in combination with 381 max damage) which is far too low for a weapon which can shoot such a large amount of pellets in a short time. 

 

Perhaps other changes to the very least used weapons would also come in handy, such as the Harbinger getting bumped up to 300-320 damage due to Clotting Agent prevalence.

Even if you made the NFAS a 4 STK it's still completly viable due to it's high ROF. The only other possible change is the ROF which would still result in a slower TTK. 

Thank you for the Harbinger buff adding that.

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12 hours ago, zeals said:

I'm fine with perc's because they are super limited in terms of usage. As for the NFAS... just delete that fucking thing.

Not really, just look at how there abused and they can stun others when going LTL.

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Some changes don’t make sense to me. For example why do you want Ursus to have faster ttk? It overshoot ntec at 50-60m because tapping fire interval is the same for both weapons but ursus has 5stk. The same for pmg. I agree that it needs drop range nerf but there’s no reason in buffing its ttk. It’s stronger than oca due to the fact that it has less stk. it means that at the same ttk as oca has pmg is more forgiving at losing tracking on enemy. I also don’t understand why you want to nerf crouch modifier. I use it pretty often with pmg.

 

But I also see very good suggestions such as scout dmg buff and carbine accuracy buff. At the moment carbine is missing accuracy. At cqc it sucks due to slow ttk comparing to smg/shotties. If you put cooling jacket then be ready to suffer from rng because after 3rd shot bloom size is too big. On mid range below 40m it can’t compete against Oscar or ntec again due to terrible accuracy. If the carbine receives an accuracy buff it’s gonna be the most balanced weapon in the game

 

Edited by Lign
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I disagree with most of these but I really enjoy seeing them laid out so cleanly

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7 hours ago, Lign said:

Some changes don’t make sense to me. For example why do you want Ursus to have faster ttk? It overshoot ntec at 50-60m because tapping fire interval is the same for both weapons but ursus has 5stk. The same for pmg. I agree that it needs drop range nerf but there’s no reason in buffing its ttk. It’s stronger than oca due to the fact that it has less stk. it means that at the same ttk as oca has pmg is more forgiving at losing tracking on enemy. I also don’t understand why you want to nerf crouch modifier. I use it pretty often with pmg.

 

But I also see very good suggestions such as scout dmg buff and carbine accuracy buff. At the moment carbine is missing accuracy. At cqc it sucks due to slow ttk comparing to smg/shotties. If you put cooling jacket then be ready to suffer from rng because after 3rd shot bloom size is too big. On mid range below 40m it can’t compete against Oscar or ntec again due to terrible accuracy. If the carbine receives an accuracy buff it’s gonna be the most balanced weapon in the game

 

You have to understand what these stat changes do. Increasing the fire interval results in a slower ROF.

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39 minutes ago, PvE said:

You have to understand what these stat changes do. Increasing the fire interval results in a slower ROF.

oh, my bad. But I don't think that we should buff or nerf ROF of smgs. It's perfectly balanced. What I would do is to make pmg 6stk but buff firerate to make it still 0.7ttk with buffing accuracy to compromise such a change. It will make it less forgivable. We would have 6stk pmg, 7stk cap40 and 8stk oca with the same ttk (cap40 is 0.696 but it doesn't have a difference)

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38 minutes ago, Lign said:

oh, my bad. But I don't think that we should buff or nerf ROF of smgs. It's perfectly balanced. What I would do is to make pmg 6stk but buff firerate to make it still 0.7ttk with buffing accuracy to compromise such a change. It will make it less forgivable. We would have 6stk pmg, 7stk cap40 and 8stk oca with the same ttk (cap40 is 0.696 but it doesn't have a difference)

a higher rof makes the pmg more forgiving not less

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Just now, Solamente said:

a higher rof makes the pmg more forgiving not less

It will still have the 0.7ttk but with 6stk and faster firerate

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Just now, Lign said:

It will still have the 0.7ttk but with 6stk and faster firerate

yes that would make it more forgiving, as you have less time to wait after missing a shot

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Just now, Solamente said:

yes that would make it more forgiving, as you have less time to wait after missing a shot

Don't think so. More stk - less forgiving, imo. Imagine JG 3stk with the same ttk, it will be more skill ceiling

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Just now, Lign said:

Don't think so. More stk - less forgiving, imo. Imagine JG 3stk with the same ttk, it will be more skill ceiling

a jg with a 3stk would be more forgiving, as you would have to wait .3s to fire after a missed shot instead of .68s (2stk)

 

to put it another way, a kill with one missed 3stk jg shot would be .9s and a kill with one missed 2stk jg shot would be 1.36s

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1 hour ago, Solamente said:

a jg with a 3stk would be more forgiving, as you would have to wait .3s to fire after a missed shot instead of .68s (2stk)

 

to put it another way, a kill with one missed 3stk jg shot would be .9s and a kill with one missed 2stk jg shot would be 1.36s

You will have to land 3 shots on the enemy instead of 2

 

Merged.

 

1 hour ago, Solamente said:

a jg with a 3stk would be more forgiving, as you would have to wait .3s to fire after a missed shot instead of .68s (2stk)

 

to put it another way, a kill with one missed 3stk jg shot would be .9s and a kill with one missed 2stk jg shot would be 1.36s

if the higher stk would be more forgiving then dmr would be stronger than hvr

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2 hours ago, Lign said:

You will have to land 3 shots on the enemy instead of 2

 

Merged.

 

if the higher stk would be more forgiving then dmr would be stronger than hvr

more forgiving doesn't mean stronger

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On 1/30/2020 at 6:04 AM, swft said:

Nice to see a document with actual values instead of just words, I agree with most of it even though there's a few more guns that need to be adjusted too, like the Obir.

The OBIR is fine, that's why it has a slower TTK. There are truly only a few guns that are really imbalanced and game breaking. A lot of the mentioned guns in this post aren't even used much yet you are suggesting nerfs. There are so many more important changes that need to be looked at, rather than gun nerfs. Just deal with the NFAS. And look into balancing missions instead.

Edited by VladimirChekhov

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A number of the changes make no sense such as the cop nerf ones:

 

COP weapons are already underpowered, and nerfing the only "semi-strong" aspects about it is not a good idea. Such as pig, its one shot sub 10m with a 1-2 second reload. There's NO room for error. Unless you suggest adding a second tazer shot, then you nerf its ammo so you can't even potentially go pig only against 2-3 people and miss twice. (really bad idea imo) I get that you don't like pig n perc, but that would be far better suited to nerfing perc soft damage.

 

Stun grenade and stun opgl as well, Stun grenade rewards perfect grenade handling, and takes skill to do, and is generally much harder and more dangerous to play than lethal. It makes no sense to nerf stun grenade damage. As for the OPGL its radius "could" be reduced but they should then adjust the max damage radius and increase it slightly. Stam damage for it should be closer to 800-850 not 750, it takes 4 seconds minimum to stun someone using it, hard nerfing that far it isn't a good idea.

 

Ntec could do with increased bloom recovery slightly (3.75-4.0 or so rather than 5, it'll still be faster than star and far) and a harsher damage drop after range along with the jump changes, but aside from that i don't ntec as an issue.

 

Also 16 rounds for RFP makes no sense because its a 3 burst pistol, 16 rounds leaves 1 extra in the chamber with no other shots. Make it 18.

 

That's just "some" issues that i've noticed, i'd have to go through tomorrow and finish reading it because i'm low on time atm.

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6 minutes ago, Noob_Guardian said:

COP weapons are already underpowered

Don't waste your time, these people can't be reasoned with. They're convinced to an insane degree that less than lethal weaponry is gamebreakingly overpowered.

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@PvE Okay so here's my "short version" analysis and suggestions. Some I would say do in "waves" if the first change isn't nearly enough.  This means a lesser change to the weapon at first for a time, BEFORE the harsher version of the nerf/buff. First wave or suggestion (*) Second wave (^). While this seems complicated it is done to prevent a potential over buff/nerf. Others I will agree with. Current stats for weapons will look like this.

 

         Assault Rifle Ammo in general - I'm not really for it, however, I can understand the reason behind it. I do agree it could be done without effecting game play too much. As such i'll ignore discussing AR ammo changes later in as i'll take an impartial stance to it.

 

Weapons:

N-TEC:

        While the NTEC is somewhat dominant in CQC and Mid-Long rang, and the jump modifier can be seen as likely the primary issue issue in cqc, the weapon also performs extremely and potentially too well, past 50-57m.

      - Increase Shot Cap -  2.0* then 2.4^

     - Increase jump Modifier 20

   --------------------------------------------

      - Reduce Bloom Recovery to 4.0^ - 4.25* from 5.0 - This puts it a little bit more in line with Star/far without making it as slow to recover as they are.

      - Further Harshen the Damage Drop Off at starting at 57m without IR3 64m with.

 

       While I understand the need for a mid-range AR that is effective IN it's range, i'd suggest these changes in "addition" to the the suggested ones in the list. This is in hopes that it can further allow the Obeya and other mid-long range weapons to be more effective in their "further" ranges, while giving Star and Far a "little" more breathing room.

 

Star: Good

 

Ursus: Good

Not a bad change and one I can get behind. Puts it in similar TTK as the Star while still dealing good damage, and still being 5 HTK.

 

Misery: Good

 

Cobra:

      - ROF Decrease: .160

Decrease Shot Modifier Cap: Read Below

 

       I feel that going to .25 may be a bit too much, its already got fairly low bloom so putting a cap that low would end up making it into a laser. While I agree that it was meant to be somewhat like a full auto carbine, i’d rather not make it into a psuedo carbine that everyone will complain about due to how effective it is, but I do feel it may bloom a little too much. So:

       - Per shot modifier: .375

       - Shot modifier Cap: .300* or .275^

 

LCR

        We have to worry about how this change can effect the old glory as well, as that is generally the “best” version of the lcr and most used, also I do currently enjoy the LCR old glory as-is, but i can see why you’d want to change it,  so I’d suggest a different set of changes than the one to you suggested which would make it more mid-range oriented. Not to “Say absolutely no” to your suggestion, however I do also currently like the weapon’s range and niche. This change could be considered an “alternate” change to make it a little more effective in its current range. (generally we have test A and test B districts, as such I feel this could be the alternate to your suggestion)

 

Remain in Current Niche:

       - Increase ROF to:  .290* or .285^ instead of .300 - The CJ3 Varient makes it .285 currently, it feels fine with old glory ROF. CJ3 would further decrease this.

       - Accuracy at 10m: 12 cm from 13cm - Make it a little more accurate.

       - Decrease Marksman Modifier to .6* then .575^

       - No Range Nerf -

 

        This is to allow it to be better in its current niche, rather than work it into closer ranged version. I would be weary of how “effective” this change would make it if changing the base spread at range, if too great then instead.

 

       - Decrease Marksman Modifier to .575* then .55^

      

 

Carbine: -No change-

          This weapon is well disliked already by many because of how effective it is regardless of if you consider it an “RNG” cannon.  I would keep the current stats on it as is without changing the weapon because of its current ease and effectiveness.

 

 

Bullshark:

Adjust it’s TTK to be more in line with other “mid range” weapons.

       - Time to Kill: .9^ or 1.0* from 1.2

       - Slightly lower ROF of shots of subsequent busts.

It’s a unique weapon and likely will be hard to rebalance to be more usable. 

 

Obir: Good

I have no issues with this change, it lessens the slightly excessive overkill while it remains effective.

 

Shredder:

        Hard to balance for its range and TTK as known from previous weapon reworks due to ray scaling. It’s not terrible in cqc combat, however it’s definitely better at the fringes of the cqc effective range which has been effectively removed due to recent nerfs. Without ray scaling it wasn’t much of a great weapon due to spread. Currently decreasing TTK would allow it to be more in-line with it’s current “nerfed” variant (not PTR) and CQC range. I much prefered the original shredder, and felt that it only needed slight tweaking to be a little more effective. I’d suggest this, from the base shredder (not current but before shotgun rework).

 

      - Decrease Fire Interval to .410

      - Increase Range: Base Range pre-rework

      - Increase spread to 47.5* cm 50cm^ from 45cm at 10m

      - Increase pellets to 10* or 11^ from 9

 

Hopefully this will give it it’s range back and make it a little more effective without making it broken.

 

JG/CSG

I feel like the need to make shotguns easier to counter via 3 shot is better because of lack of counterplay than changing their ROF and damage slightly. Any weapon in cover has a direct advantage already .10s and a slightly less hp damage isn’t going to fix that, while it does effectively make shotguns much worse than oca/pmg in cqc without cover (and effectively almost always dead without cover.) This isn’t a great idea imo, i know this from using the ODIN Series which has a .79 ttk and can be really rough to use because of. As such:

 

JG:

       - Max Health Damage: 445 from 775

       - TTK: Remain the Same

       - Spread at 10m: 125cm* or 135cm^ from 150cm

       - Mag Size: 12 from 8

 

CSG/TAS:

Interesting Idea with slugs however may be more suited to the shredder which is already a ranged shotgun. 

If In line with the JG changes:

       - Max Health Damage: 400 from ~660

       - Mag size: 12 from 8

 

NFAS:

       - Damage Reduction: Good - IF TTK remains the same or increased to .62/.63

       - Reload Time - Good

       - Mag size - 10 from 7

An increased mag size is necessary if its damage is reduced. Otherwise it will only get 1 kill per mag at 7 rounds unless lucky.

 

Strife :

The strife is meant to be a heavy heavy hitter while having really bad TTK. The TTK is offset with cover usage, however it doesn’t negate that it can quickly and easily become useless in close quarters if miss, a partial hit, or no cover. It is very high risk high reward. If it does get a nerf then:

       - No Range Decrease

       - Decrease damage to 900* or 885^ from 937

 

PMG: Good

 

H-9 Curse:

 

      - Damage drop off range to 40m

      - Increase Damage to 112

      - Make Time to Kill 0.74s

 

           The change to the TTK is because reducing the one bullet makes its TTK go from .765 to 0.68 after the first shot is fired, this TTK is faster than most CQC weapons and would kill slightly faster than OCA even if it missed once with a .7ttk at 8 shots. If this is going to become more of a cqc-mid sub machine gun, then it shouldn’t interfere too harshly on other cqc weapons. Maintain a slightly higher TTK than .7, while still giving it more range and damage.

 

OCA ‘Whisper’: Good

I see no real need to change this gun, it doesn’t really seem to be overpowered, though I can understand wanting to change it to be more in-line with the base weapon without seeming to be “pay to win”. As such I won’t disagree with this change.

 

HVR: No Changes

I’m not too keen on nerfing the HVR further, it’s already been hit really hard in the attempt to nerf quick switching on it. Quick switching is already non viable because of the current changes of the HVR. (Personally I hate the current iteration of HVR, and would have much prefered to remove the ability to use purple mods on the HVR in general, pinging someone 2-3x crouching then shooting crouched doesn’t kill someone while out of mm most of the time it seems)

 

ISSR-B: 

This weapon’s TTK is kept in line by its bloom gain for longer ranges, but I don’t agree entirely with the suggested changes for the sniper and would likely change a few other aspects.

 

      -Damage Drop off range 85m from 90m

      -Decrease Hard Damage to 50 from 72.9

      -Increase ttk to 1s from .9s

      -Shot modifier .6* or .65^ from .5

      -Recovery delay .40 from .45

 

ISSR-A:

Meant to feel like the ISSR-B but be a mid ranged variant as such:

 

      -Increase range to 55m from 50m

      -Adjust the damage after damage drop to be slightly sharper down

      -Per shot modifier 1.0* or ^0.75 from 1.50

      -Recovery Delay .3* or .250^

 

       The weapon feels clunky to use, it gains a lot of bloom, has a high ttk for midrange, and spends lot of time waiting for bloom to recover. Hopefully this change makes it a little bit less clunky.

 

Scout:

CA-3 was nerfed to mitigate damage done, which was already a direct buff to this weapon. You can now fire 3-4 shots before having to worry about clotting agent. (pretty sure it’s 3). I think a more minor damage adjustment would be better at first.

 

      -Increase damage to 565* or 580^ from 550  instead

 

Euryale: Good

I’m not opposed to these changes, it is a bit too powerful.

 

Alig: Good

The weapon needs to be a little more accurate in general to be somewhat effective against players. 

 

ACT 44:

 

      - Range decrease to 60m from 70m

      - Accuracy at 10m 18.5cm  from 20cm

      - Marksman Modifier - .35

     

        Act 44 has always felt more CQC than the RSA, as such decreasing its range somewhat makes sense, however to help fix the accuracy issue I would suggest tweaking the base accuracy to be more accurate.

 

RSA:

      - Accuracy at 10m 15cm from 16cm

      - Marksman modifier .35

 

Keep range the same, change the Modifier and 10m accuracy to improve it.

 

RFP: 

      - Damage Drop off: 30m

      - Decrease Mag Capacity to 18 from 24

You have an incorrect amount of bullets in a 3 shot mag in your chart for the RFP, I suggest making it full bursts, rather than 5 with 1 shot left over.

 

Showstopper:

       It’s a CQC shotgun pistol with a low TTK. It’s not as effective now as it had been. Damage is fine, you say ttk is too low, yet want to make it a 4 shot kill with a 1.05 ttk with a sub 10m range which would effectively make it worse than every CQC based pistol AND cqc-mid range pistol ingame. Ironically .45 has a ttk of .8 and you’d be putting a pistol with a fraction of the range to be far worse than this which can reach out far further and is far better with your suggested change without suggesting a rework of the .45.  For the Showstopper instead I suggest:

 

      - Increase ttk to .75s* or 0.8s^ from .7s

To make it align with the fr0g more

 

Or

 

      - No change

 

This puts the showstopper line with the TTK of the Fr0g in cqc or leaves it as a middleman between the NFA and the Fr0g/.45.

 

      -  I would suggest no TTK change be done to the Thunder variant of the Showstopper if this rework were to go through, so changes may have to be done to the mod/weapon to effectively keep it the same as is.

 

SNUB: Good

OSCP: Good

 

PIG: No Change

There is no way to reasonably change this weapon without severely gimping an already hard to use and underpowered role.

 

IF a nerf MUST happen then I would suggest:

 

      - Stamina Damage to .900* or 850^ from 950 instead.

      - No ammo change

 

This leaves it to still be very effective as a finisher and useful against slightly tagged enemies (which is what it’s supposed to be) without severely nerfing it to near uselessness.

 

 

Harbinger: Good

 

Percussion: 

I agree with a slight nerf, however I feel that 450 may be too harsh, I’d suggest :

 

      - Explosion radius 500* or 475^ from 550- no lower

      - Stamina Damage - 250 from 350

 

The fix for Reducing pig/perf effectiveness is a hard call, however making the pig harder to use without touching the PERC’s stamina damage is not the way to go about “fixing” it.

 

Low Yield Grenade:

I have long wanted low yields to be 2 instead of 3 because of spammability. However, with their current reduced damage and seeing how that feels to play against, reducing their range “may” be enough to bring it much further in line without making it so you have 2. As such:

 

      - Decrease Radius to 600

      - No Change to Carry Capacity* OR Reduce capacity to 2^ from 3

 

Stun Grenade: No Change

While it can be infuriating to be 1 shot stunned with them, the entire less than lethal role is far weaker than lethal, and nerfing one of the only decent, hard to use, and high skill cap things ingame for it, does not make sense to me without first buffing less then lethal as a whole first. So I would suggest no change, at least until LTL gets fully reworked to be more useful.

 

Volcano: Agree

 

Stun OPGL:

Max Rank Cop Item, hard to get, I disagree with the extent of the suggested changes. The Radius is HUGE that’s for sure, however that’s because it is literal gas, and not an explosion IF the range has to be reduced, i’d say 850cm across the board, no less. So:

 

      - Decrease the Radius to 850cm from 1000cm

      - Increase Max Damage Radius to 200cm from 150cm

 

OR

 

      - No Radius Change

      - Decrease Stamina damage to 850* or 800^

      - Increase Max Damage Radius to 200cm from 150cm

 

OR

      - Decrease the Radius to 850cm from 1000cm

      - Increase Max Damage Radius to 200cm from 150cm

      - Reduce Mag Size to 3 from 4

 

I cannot agree to nerfing the LTL opgl as harshly as suggested due to the difference between being stunned and being killed. However there are several other ways to potentially reduce its spammability. It cannot oneshot as suggested, however it does piggyback well off any fall damage/stamina damage.

 

Edited by Noob_Guardian
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instead of watering down the gimmicky nature/identity of some weapons so that they properly fall under their weapon category, how about slightly nerfing the ntec, which will pretty much buff every AR/R/SMG in the game by making it viable against... the ntec.

 

we dont need to rebalance everything, that's not what APB needs at all. The HVR is still too good in 4s and 3s, the ntec is good in literally every situation except when you're going against a corner camping JG/CSG/NFAS player, and we are in the process of already balancing these weapons, so why even suggest balance changes this drastic? Only changes i can agree on are stun nades and harbinger to be honest. Low Yields were nerfed but i guess they can be nerfed even harder? also, no conc nerfs or changes? do we really want to corner ourselves into a conc meta? and what the hell is that snub buff? that's WAY too good lmfao.

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On 2/3/2020 at 8:40 PM, Noob_Guardian said:
 

@PvE Okay so here's my "short version" analysis and suggestions. Some I would say do in "waves" if the first change isn't nearly enough.  This means a lesser change to the weapon at first for a time, BEFORE the harsher version of the nerf/buff. First wave or suggestion (*) Second wave (^). While this seems complicated it is done to prevent a potential over buff/nerf. Others I will agree with. Current stats for weapons will look like this.

 

         Assault Rifle Ammo in general - I'm not really for it, however, I can understand the reason behind it. I do agree it could be done without effecting game play too much. As such i'll ignore discussing AR ammo changes later in as i'll take an impartial stance to it.

 

Weapons:

N-TEC:

        While the NTEC is somewhat dominant in CQC and Mid-Long rang, and the jump modifier can be seen as likely the primary issue issue in cqc, the weapon also performs extremely and potentially too well, past 50-57m.

      - Increase Shot Cap -  2.0* then 2.4^

     - Increase jump Modifier 20

   --------------------------------------------

      - Reduce Bloom Recovery to 4.0^ - 4.25* from 5.0 - This puts it a little bit more in line with Star/far without making it as slow to recover as they are.

      - Further Harshen the Damage Drop Off at starting at 57m without IR3 64m with.

 

       While I understand the need for a mid-range AR that is effective IN it's range, i'd suggest these changes in "addition" to the the suggested ones in the list. This is in hopes that it can further allow the Obeya and other mid-long range weapons to be more effective in their "further" ranges, while giving Star and Far a "little" more breathing room.

 

Star: Good

 

Ursus: Good

Not a bad change and one I can get behind. Puts it in similar TTK as the Star while still dealing good damage, and still being 5 HTK.

 

Misery: Good

 

Cobra:

      - ROF Decrease: .160

Decrease Shot Modifier Cap: Read Below

 

       I feel that going to .25 may be a bit too much, its already got fairly low bloom so putting a cap that low would end up making it into a laser. While I agree that it was meant to be somewhat like a full auto carbine, i’d rather not make it into a psuedo carbine that everyone will complain about due to how effective it is, but I do feel it may bloom a little too much. So:

       - Per shot modifier: .375

       - Shot modifier Cap: .300* or .275^

 

LCR

        We have to worry about how this change can effect the old glory as well, as that is generally the “best” version of the lcr and most used, also I do currently enjoy the LCR old glory as-is, but i can see why you’d want to change it,  so I’d suggest a different set of changes than the one to you suggested which would make it more mid-range oriented. Not to “Say absolutely no” to your suggestion, however I do also currently like the weapon’s range and niche. This change could be considered an “alternate” change to make it a little more effective in its current range. (generally we have test A and test B districts, as such I feel this could be the alternate to your suggestion)

 

Remain in Current Niche:

       - Increase ROF to:  .290* or .285^ instead of .300 - The CJ3 Varient makes it .285 currently, it feels fine with old glory ROF. CJ3 would further decrease this.

       - Accuracy at 10m: 12 cm from 13cm - Make it a little more accurate.

       - Decrease Marksman Modifier to .6* then .575^

       - No Range Nerf -

 

        This is to allow it to be better in its current niche, rather than work it into closer ranged version. I would be weary of how “effective” this change would make it if changing the base spread at range, if too great then instead.

 

       - Decrease Marksman Modifier to .575* then .55^

      

 

Carbine: -No change-

          This weapon is well disliked already by many because of how effective it is regardless of if you consider it an “RNG” cannon.  I would keep the current stats on it as is without changing the weapon because of its current ease and effectiveness.

 

 

Bullshark:

Adjust it’s TTK to be more in line with other “mid range” weapons.

       - Time to Kill: .9^ or 1.0* from 1.2

       - Slightly lower ROF of shots of subsequent busts.

It’s a unique weapon and likely will be hard to rebalance to be more usable. 

 

Obir: Good

I have no issues with this change, it lessens the slightly excessive overkill while it remains effective.

 

Shredder:

        Hard to balance for its range and TTK as known from previous weapon reworks due to ray scaling. It’s not terrible in cqc combat, however it’s definitely better at the fringes of the cqc effective range which has been effectively removed due to recent nerfs. Without ray scaling it wasn’t much of a great weapon due to spread. Currently decreasing TTK would allow it to be more in-line with it’s current “nerfed” variant (not PTR) and CQC range. I much prefered the original shredder, and felt that it only needed slight tweaking to be a little more effective. I’d suggest this, from the base shredder (not current but before shotgun rework).

 

      - Decrease Fire Interval to .410

      - Increase Range: Base Range pre-rework

      - Increase spread to 47.5* cm 50cm^ from 45cm at 10m

      - Increase pellets to 10* or 11^ from 9

 

Hopefully this will give it it’s range back and make it a little more effective without making it broken.

 

JG/CSG

I feel like the need to make shotguns easier to counter via 3 shot is better because of lack of counterplay than changing their ROF and damage slightly. Any weapon in cover has a direct advantage already .10s and a slightly less hp damage isn’t going to fix that, while it does effectively make shotguns much worse than oca/pmg in cqc without cover (and effectively almost always dead without cover.) This isn’t a great idea imo, i know this from using the ODIN Series which has a .79 ttk and can be really rough to use because of. As such:

 

JG:

       - Max Health Damage: 445 from 775

       - TTK: Remain the Same

       - Spread at 10m: 125cm* or 135cm^ from 150cm

       - Mag Size: 12 from 8

 

CSG/TAS:

Interesting Idea with slugs however may be more suited to the shredder which is already a ranged shotgun. 

If In line with the JG changes:

       - Max Health Damage: 400 from ~660

       - Mag size: 12 from 8

 

NFAS:

       - Damage Reduction: Good - IF TTK remains the same or increased to .62/.63

       - Reload Time - Good

       - Mag size - 10 from 7

An increased mag size is necessary if its damage is reduced. Otherwise it will only get 1 kill per mag at 7 rounds unless lucky.

 

Strife :

The strife is meant to be a heavy heavy hitter while having really bad TTK. The TTK is offset with cover usage, however it doesn’t negate that it can quickly and easily become useless in close quarters if miss, a partial hit, or no cover. It is very high risk high reward. If it does get a nerf then:

       - No Range Decrease

       - Decrease damage to 900* or 885^ from 937

 

PMG: Good

 

H-9 Curse:

 

      - Damage drop off range to 40m

      - Increase Damage to 112

      - Make Time to Kill 0.74s

 

           The change to the TTK is because reducing the one bullet makes its TTK go from .765 to 0.68 after the first shot is fired, this TTK is faster than most CQC weapons and would kill slightly faster than OCA even if it missed once with a .7ttk at 8 shots. If this is going to become more of a cqc-mid sub machine gun, then it shouldn’t interfere too harshly on other cqc weapons. Maintain a slightly higher TTK than .7, while still giving it more range and damage.

 

OCA ‘Whisper’: Good

I see no real need to change this gun, it doesn’t really seem to be overpowered, though I can understand wanting to change it to be more in-line with the base weapon without seeming to be “pay to win”. As such I won’t disagree with this change.

 

HVR: No Changes

I’m not too keen on nerfing the HVR further, it’s already been hit really hard in the attempt to nerf quick switching on it. Quick switching is already non viable because of the current changes of the HVR. (Personally I hate the current iteration of HVR, and would have much prefered to remove the ability to use purple mods on the HVR in general, pinging someone 2-3x crouching then shooting crouched doesn’t kill someone while out of mm most of the time it seems)

 

ISSR-B: 

This weapon’s TTK is kept in line by its bloom gain for longer ranges, but I don’t agree entirely with the suggested changes for the sniper and would likely change a few other aspects.

 

      -Damage Drop off range 85m from 90m

      -Decrease Hard Damage to 50 from 72.9

      -Increase ttk to 1s from .9s

      -Shot modifier .6* or .65^ from .5

      -Recovery delay .40 from .45

 

ISSR-A:

Meant to feel like the ISSR-B but be a mid ranged variant as such:

 

      -Increase range to 55m from 50m

      -Adjust the damage after damage drop to be slightly sharper down

      -Per shot modifier 1.0* or ^0.75 from 1.50

      -Recovery Delay .3* or .250^

 

       The weapon feels clunky to use, it gains a lot of bloom, has a high ttk for midrange, and spends lot of time waiting for bloom to recover. Hopefully this change makes it a little bit less clunky.

 

Scout:

CA-3 was nerfed to mitigate damage done, which was already a direct buff to this weapon. You can now fire 3-4 shots before having to worry about clotting agent. (pretty sure it’s 3). I think a more minor damage adjustment would be better at first.

 

      -Increase damage to 565* or 580^ from 550  instead

 

Euryale: Good

I’m not opposed to these changes, it is a bit too powerful.

 

Alig: Good

The weapon needs to be a little more accurate in general to be somewhat effective against players. 

 

ACT 44:

 

      - Range decrease to 60m from 70m

      - Accuracy at 10m 18.5cm  from 20cm

      - Marksman Modifier - .35

     

        Act 44 has always felt more CQC than the RSA, as such decreasing its range somewhat makes sense, however to help fix the accuracy issue I would suggest tweaking the base accuracy to be more accurate.

 

RSA:

      - Accuracy at 10m 15cm from 16cm

      - Marksman modifier .35

 

Keep range the same, change the Modifier and 10m accuracy to improve it.

 

RFP: 

      - Damage Drop off: 30m

      - Decrease Mag Capacity to 18 from 24

You have an incorrect amount of bullets in a 3 shot mag in your chart for the RFP, I suggest making it full bursts, rather than 5 with 1 shot left over.

 

Showstopper:

       It’s a CQC shotgun pistol with a low TTK. It’s not as effective now as it had been. Damage is fine, you say ttk is too low, yet want to make it a 4 shot kill with a 1.05 ttk with a sub 10m range which would effectively make it worse than every CQC based pistol AND cqc-mid range pistol ingame. Ironically .45 has a ttk of .8 and you’d be putting a pistol with a fraction of the range to be far worse than this which can reach out far further and is far better with your suggested change without suggesting a rework of the .45.  For the Showstopper instead I suggest:

 

      - Increase ttk to .75s* or 0.8s^ from .7s

To make it align with the fr0g more

 

Or

 

      - No change

 

This puts the showstopper line with the TTK of the Fr0g in cqc or leaves it as a middleman between the NFA and the Fr0g/.45.

 

      -  I would suggest no TTK change be done to the Thunder variant of the Showstopper if this rework were to go through, so changes may have to be done to the mod/weapon to effectively keep it the same as is.

 

SNUB: Good

OSCP: Good

 

PIG: No Change

There is no way to reasonably change this weapon without severely gimping an already hard to use and underpowered role.

 

IF a nerf MUST happen then I would suggest:

 

      - Stamina Damage to .900* or 850^ from 950 instead.

      - No ammo change

 

This leaves it to still be very effective as a finisher and useful against slightly tagged enemies (which is what it’s supposed to be) without severely nerfing it to near uselessness.

 

 

Harbinger: Good

 

Percussion: 

I agree with a slight nerf, however I feel that 450 may be too harsh, I’d suggest :

 

      - Explosion radius 500* or 475^ from 550- no lower

      - Stamina Damage - 250 from 350

 

The fix for Reducing pig/perf effectiveness is a hard call, however making the pig harder to use without touching the PERC’s stamina damage is not the way to go about “fixing” it.

 

Low Yield Grenade:

I have long wanted low yields to be 2 instead of 3 because of spammability. However, with their current reduced damage and seeing how that feels to play against, reducing their range “may” be enough to bring it much further in line without making it so you have 2. As such:

 

      - Decrease Radius to 600

      - No Change to Carry Capacity* OR Reduce capacity to 2^ from 3

 

Stun Grenade: No Change

While it can be infuriating to be 1 shot stunned with them, the entire less than lethal role is far weaker than lethal, and nerfing one of the only decent, hard to use, and high skill cap things ingame for it, does not make sense to me without first buffing less then lethal as a whole first. So I would suggest no change, at least until LTL gets fully reworked to be more useful.

 

Volcano: Agree

 

Stun OPGL:

Max Rank Cop Item, hard to get, I disagree with the extent of the suggested changes. The Radius is HUGE that’s for sure, however that’s because it is literal gas, and not an explosion IF the range has to be reduced, i’d say 850cm across the board, no less. So:

 

      - Decrease the Radius to 850cm from 1000cm

      - Increase Max Damage Radius to 200cm from 150cm

 

OR

 

      - No Radius Change

      - Decrease Stamina damage to 850* or 800^

      - Increase Max Damage Radius to 200cm from 150cm

 

OR

      - Decrease the Radius to 850cm from 1000cm

      - Increase Max Damage Radius to 200cm from 150cm

      - Reduce Mag Size to 3 from 4

 

I cannot agree to nerfing the LTL opgl as harshly as suggested due to the difference between being stunned and being killed. However there are several other ways to potentially reduce its spammability. It cannot oneshot as suggested, however it does piggyback well off any fall damage/stamina damage.

 

Every well thought out and informative changes i really appreciate the effort that you went through with this post.

  • NTEC - Bloom recovery decrease might be doable but a large amount already don't use NTEC in it's current state.
  • COBRA - Good change.
  • LCR - Probably needs more input and refinement.
  • Carbine - Disagree completely this gun just isn't as good as it should be largely that being with it's RNG mechanics.
  • Bullshark - Probably needs more input and refinement.
  • JG/CSG - Not to entirely sure about the 3 STK on a shotgun would work in today's APB i'm for the 2 shot just a slower ROF to increase the TTK.
  • NFAS - This just makes NFAS a 4 STK from a 3 and will have a very good CQC ttk in comparison to current shotguns.
  • Strife - I feel this is a good median between all the input received i'm leaving as is.
  • Curse - TTK can be decreased with a ROF increase.
  • HVR - Completely disagree this is just as much of a nerf as it is a buff.
  • ISSR B - Considered.
  • ISSR A - Considered.
  • Scout - Don't even think it would matter much even if you increased the damage to 600.
  • ACT 44 - Seems reasonable to have the ACT more "close range" oriented over the RSA.
  • RFP - Seems reasonable.
  • Showstopper - Used both variants they are completely dominate if you can aim.
  • PIG - Completely disagree this gun is probably the most powerful in the right hands.
  • PERC - Seems reasonable.
  • YOLO - Probably needs more input and refinement.
  • Stun OPGL - Probably needs more input and refinement.
Edited by PvE

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37 minutes ago, PvE said:

PIG - Completely disagree this gun is probably the most powerful in the right hands.

 

I agree about this, the PIG is probably the most annoying gun to play against overall, and it really doesn't help that it is locked to one faction. Even if all other LTLs may need a small buff, the PIG really needs either a damage decrease or a wind up timer like the Ogre. At the very least the dreaded Perc combo should be prevented. 

 

As for the Scout I think many of its issues stem from the fact that a 3-slot version is unobtainable and it's always a choice between the 3 mods that would go well on it. If a 3-slot Scout or Pathfinder existed I have no doubt that it would be more than viable. 

Edited by Mojibaked

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8 hours ago, PvE said:

Every well thought out and informative changes i really appreciate the effort that you went through with this post.

  • NTEC - Bloom recovery decrease might be doable but a large amount already don't use NTEC in it's current state.
  • COBRA - Good change.
  • LCR - Probably needs more input and refinement.
  • Carbine - Disagree completely this gun just isn't as good as it should be largely that being with it's RNG mechanics.
  • Bullshark - Probably needs more input and refinement.
  • JG/CSG - Not to entirely sure about the 3 STK on a shotgun would work in today's APB i'm for the 2 shot just a slower ROF to increase the TTK.
  • NFAS - This just makes NFAS a 4 STK from a 3 and will have a very good CQC ttk in comparison to current shotguns.
  • Strife - I feel this is a good median between all the input received i'm leaving as is.
  • Curse - TTK can be decreased with a ROF increase.
  • HVR - Completely disagree this is just as much of a nerf as it is a buff.
  • ISSR B - Considered.
  • ISSR A - Considered.
  • Scout - Don't even think it would matter much even if you increased the damage to 600.
  • ACT 44 - Seems reasonable to have the ACT more "close range" oriented over the RSA.
  • RFP - Seems reasonable.
  • Showstopper - Used both variants they are completely dominate if you can aim.
  • PIG - Completely disagree this gun is probably the most powerful in the right hands.
  • PERC - Seems reasonable.
  • YOLO - Probably needs more input and refinement.
  • Stun OPGL - Probably needs more input and refinement.

I do agree that a few people did switch from ntec after the changes, I honestly didn't realize how clunky the changes they did would feel, though I still see ntec a bit, and it is nice to have a little more variety from the change. (However I also don't know what "all" they touched.) It feels like they increased jump modifier and max spread, and made it bloom even more after each shot while leaving the bloom recovery the same.

 

While the Carbine can be somewhat RNG-ish at times, it's also extremely effective. I'm worried that if its RNG gets "fixed" then other tweaks would have to happen to it to ensure its balanced properly. It can already dominate hard, which is why i'm weary of any changes to it. If it can be made less RNG but remain at it's current effectiveness I wouldn't mind a rework for that purpose.

 

Yeah the bullshark would need refinement, i wouldn't know where to begin aside from that because its ttk can drop to .35 or something on its last burst or two.

 

3 v 2 shot shotguns are a rough design decision, i'm used to the two shotting, however I can also understand the aggrevation of not being able to do anything because they use cover so effectively. The best i can hope for is 2/3 shots which can be done fairly reliably but without being as hard to counter, but I only see one way to do so.

 

As for the Curse, true i think my fear is simply overbuffing something. I don't feel that your version would make it too powerful, though I feel the TTK should be somewhat careful being lower than .7 if the rest of the CQC roster got switched back to ~.7 as it has recently, then you could potentially have something too good in CQC, which can be effective a little past it.

 

Probably right about the scout, i'm just being cautions about "how much" extra time the scout has to 2 shot. The current version feels good imo after the CA3 nerf, but I can get why people want it buffed a bit still. That said i think the only way to make it better would be to adjust damage and calculate CA3's heal time for that damage and work from there.

 

Showstopper - That may be true but it can also be said for any pistol especially the fr0g or .45. The Showstopper is sort of a middleman between the NFA and Fr0g imo, which wouldn't be hard to balance except for the fact that it's also a shotgun. If it has to 4 shot-5 shot (which it often does have to do if you aren't sub 3m) then its TTK goes up to ~.95-1.3 seconds, which is why i'm not exactly for wanting it to be nerfed to a 4 shot. That said LO is nerfing its damage to 378.

 

Pig "in the right hands" indeed, however that doesn't change that its got a very high skillcap to reach that point. Other than that it's just a really annoying sidearm.

 

We'll see how LO's shotgun changes pan out, Noones on joker so I havnt been able to test, hopefully i'll be able to hop into a EU district tomorrow to test

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Grind out exp and standing only to get a lesser version of a grenade I got at rank 1 (low yields). 

-If i work and grind out all that playing only to unlock a lesser tier grenade than I previously had I would be upset, Not to mention flak jacket is a thing.  The whole purpose of low yields is literally in their name. why shouldn't I be able to carry 3 if they are smaller. give me an upside like I have the ability to move faster. Ill protect low yields to the day I die and my Ntec,....

 

its rock, paper, scissors with each weapon keeping in mind we only have 1 hit box.

 

 

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there are too many guns dude, i dont know where u get off changing the minutiae of values each gun has without being able to test it like a real dev, like seriously what are u guys thinking u cant just change these values without a test bed or something at least like wtf?

 

guns should be unique and excel in their own domain, homogenization is bad for the game just look at world of warcraft and what the homogenization of classes did to the game, the game is garbage

 

just revert the game to late 2012 and early 2013 and call it a day, please

 

Edited by Acrohh
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