Simple changes for APB weapon balancing

[PvE 33]

I'm releasing this post a bit early due to the weapon balancing that seems to be going on in APB. This post isn't a suggestion but a collaboration among veterans to reach an equilibrium with weapon balancing. This document is no where near complete and still needs a lot of work but i feel it can serve as a justification what can be changed to benefit all of the community.

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1E6xMggGRngFFBTetuZQ7-e9cmWTRgSiX54BxO4gVGr8/edit?usp=sharing

[Aserii 68]

strife damage should not be touched. you wanna shorten the range?yeah, sure, but the damage is there because of its incredibly slow firerate. instead of losing 10m, the pmg should only lose 5 imo, leaving it at 30m dropoff setting it in line with the oca. I'm not sure why you want to drop the pig's dmg, LTL is hard to achieve results with and although it's strong, the PIG is high risk high reward with its one shot and long reload, would not suggest tweaking it. 

most other things im not bothered by. 

[Hexerin 1140]

What is it with you people and wanting to destroy the uniqueness of guns? If you don't like them, then simply don't use them. Fuck off trying to ruin them for those that do like them.

[PvE 33]

11 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

What is it with you people and wanting to destroy the uniqueness of guns? If you don't like them, then simply don't use them. Fuck off trying to ruin them for those that do like them.

Provide an example please.

[Milim 32]

27 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

What is it with you people and wanting to destroy the uniqueness of guns? If you don't like them, then simply don't use them. Fuck off trying to ruin them for those that do like them.

I think people are just tired of their weapons getting nerfed to shit instead of buffing and balancing everything.

[Hexerin 1140]

1 hour ago, PvE said:

Provide an example please.

Just offhand based on the little I read of that doc before closing it in disgust. COBR-A, ISSR-a, and Strife.

• COBR-A's design is supposed to essentially be an automatic variant of the Carbine. Slower, but more accurate. True, it's currently a little on the undertuned side, but your suggestions destroy what it is by trying to make it an ADS assault rifle like the rest.
• ISSR-a is supposed to be a marksman / assault rifle hybrid. The current bloom recovery delay might be a bit too long, but overall it's a very powerful gun that also has anti-vehicle utility.
• Strife is literally supposed to borderline one-shot your target, that's the entire reason it has the atrociously slow fire rate. We already have shotguns that barely tickle in the form of CSG (and JG to a lesser extent), we don't need to homogenize the Strife to join that dull and boring group. It's already been given an unjustified nerf, we don't need it being destroyed further. It's a support weapon like the HVR, but it's actually balanced thanks to not having render distance range like the HVR's broken patootie.

1 hour ago, zeals said:

I think people are just tired of their weapons getting nerfed to shit instead of buffing and balancing everything.

Won't see me saying otherwise, I'm a full believer in the philosophy that you should always endeavor to buff weaker things instead of nerfing stronger ones. There are of course times when nerfs are necessary (to preserve a chosen baseline/average TTK across the game, for example), but far more often it's totally possible to buff things without causing issues.

Edited January 30, 2020 by Hexerin

[ExoticZ 131]

3 hours ago, PvE said:

I'm releasing this post a bit early due to the weapon balancing that seems to be going on in APB. This post isn't a suggestion but a collaboration among veterans to reach an equilibrium with weapon balancing. This document is no where near complete and still needs a lot of work but i feel it can serve as a justification what can be changed to benefit all of the community.

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1E6xMggGRngFFBTetuZQ7-e9cmWTRgSiX54BxO4gVGr8/edit?usp=sharing

Alot of interesting things in here for sure.

Some things I agree on while some things I disagree on.

Either way, it's a good and clean document which describes each suggestion.

 

Something that could be interesting imo, is if you would go more in depth on each suggestion either on stream or a YouTube video.

[PvE 33]

29 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Just offhand based on the little I read of that doc before closing it in disgust. COBR-A, ISSR-a, and Strife.

• COBR-A's design is supposed to essentially be an automatic variant of the Carbine. Slower, but more accurate. True, it's currently a little on the undertuned side, but your suggestions destroy what it is by trying to make it an ADS assault rifle like the rest.
• ISSR-a is supposed to be a marksman / assault rifle hybrid. The current bloom recovery delay might be a bit too long, but overall it's a very powerful gun that also has anti-vehicle utility.
• Strife is literally supposed to borderline one-shot your target, that's the entire reason it has the atrociously slow fire rate. We already have shotguns that barely tickle in the form of CSG (and JG to a lesser extent), we don't need to homogenize the Strife to join that dull and boring group. It's already been given an unjustified nerf, we don't need it being destroyed further. It's a support weapon like the HVR, but it's actually balanced thanks to not having render distance range like the HVR's broken patootie.

Won't see me saying otherwise, I'm a full believer in the philosophy that you should always endeavor to buff weaker things instead of nerfing stronger ones. There are of course times when nerfs are necessary (to preserve a chosen baseline/average TTK across the game, for example), but far more often it's totally possible to buff things without causing issues.

• COBR-A's change was to bring it into the light as an assault rifle to further variation not make it another marksman rifle.
• ISSR-A needs work don't know many that own it for a good reason.
• Strife is an incredibly powerful gun that is just underused due to the fact that it is behind a pack instead of individually sold. I see no justification for having a shotgun do 931 damage while having more range than needed 775 is a perfect balance if you take into account the other shotgun damage values.

12 minutes ago, ExoticZ said:

Alot of interesting things in here for sure.

Some things I agree on while some things I disagree on.

Either way, it's a good and clean document which describes each suggestion.

 

Something that could be interesting imo, is if you would go more in depth on each suggestion either on stream or a YouTube video.

All about coming to a conclusion, everyone is going to have different views this is directed towards just having equal balance within apb. Would appreciate your input on some weapons that you think would need changes, would love to have a fellow streamer and veteran offer some advice. 

Edited January 30, 2020 by PvE

[KnifuWaifu 499]

Uh I have the Veteran Weapon skin unlocked and was not consulted on this document. 

 

So #noteveryveteran.

[Deadliest 383]

wish apb had projectile mechanics and just get rid of stupid bullet RNG hitscan. 

 

+ Most guns feel like they don't even have vertical recoil.

 

 

[Running Eagle 16]

This document's contents intends to make APB's rock-paper-scissors gameplay based on weapon class as a baseline (AR as scissors, shotgun as rock, marksman as paper) instead of fleshing out the gameplay type and keeping the guns unique within their class (cobra barber scissors, atac poultry shears, misery embroidery scissors....)  And actually to kind of keep with my euphemism here, if ARs are scissors, the NTEC is and has always been for a long time that all-purpose pair of scissors your mother keeps in the junk drawer in the kitchen that she uses to open packages, cut your hair, and trim the dingleberries off the dog's patootie when they start to clump up -- and your adjustments here seek to take trauma shears made out of high grade surgical steel, as well as a pair of hedge trimmers used to do landscaping, and make both of them look and function almost identically to the junk-drawer, all-purpose, dingleberry-cutting scissors with the indestructible plastic thumb holes your mom refuses to replace because somehow they never actually need to be sharpened thanks to some inexplicable form of dollar-store sorcery.

 

I get what your reasons are for the changes described here.

 

I'm 100% positive that it will remove the variety and uniqueness of the guns and still make them useless compared to the contact rentable guns for the opposite reason:  they're too similar to each other and therefore there would be no real reason beyond aesthetics to spend G1C/JT on acquiring them.  If they are all equally as effective as each other within a negligible margin of applicable difference, it would make every gun a remesh/reskin of each other and essentially bring every class of gun back down to only having 2 types of guns per class.

 

Yes I understand there are 'technical differences' between the guns as you are describing them by stats, but when put to play-testing the applicable differences would be, as I said, negligible.  Which, in the end, would be time and effort spent by the dev team to make the guns represent your proposal, only to leave them literally as purposeless as they currently are, except they wouldn't suffer from not being competitive like they currently do, they'd just....be fancy skins and sounds on the same old same old same old guns we've had since launch.

 

Edit: I 100% agree with the idea that RNG based guns need to be less RNG based, but in exchange for that, they need to have SLOWER TTK.  I am extremely suspect of the idea of making both the PMG and Carbine "more accurate" when every PMG and carbine I face off against somehow manages to have 80+% accuracy from LITERALLY any range within its current "effective range" value.  Consistently PMG users seem to be able to not only track perfectly but additionally completely remove the 'rng' nature of the gun because 5 shots are fired and 5 shots land about 90% of the time when fighting a PMG in asylum, and 6 shots are fired and 6 shots land from the carbine on ANY map at ANY range it seems.  Outside 35m it doesnt kill in 6 shots but I'll be damned if they don't still land all 6 shots.  And it's very clear, as you can listen and count the gunshot sounds up to your death.  Well, MY death.

 

So the insistence that two guns that people use that seem to only miss 1-3 bullets per magazine, need to be made MORE accurate and less RNG based, is incredibly suspicious to me.  I wonder if you would recommend the same for the .45 and additionally give it another bullet in the mag just in case....

Edited January 30, 2020 by Running Eagle

[Shini 251]

It's good to see the document. I find myself agreeing with with a lot of the suggestions there. Some I don't agree but it's whatever.

The document is useful for the devs for sure with regards to the bigger picture as the main problem is the forums are quite incoherant a lot of the time with unconstructive feedback.

[swft 356]

Nice to see a document with actual values instead of just words, I agree with most of it even though there's a few more guns that need to be adjusted too, like the Obir.

[Speedz 147]

Nice read. I assume the shotgun changes in this doc are with Per Ray Damage scaling? And what do you mean with "set spread" for the CSG, something like we had back in the days with the pellet circle?

 

You might also have to update Low-Yields on that document, their Radius was already nerfed to 550 cm, a bit lower than the suggestion to keep the 3rd nade.

[PvE 33]

5 hours ago, KnifuWaifu said:

Uh I have the Veteran Weapon skin unlocked and was not consulted on this document. 

 

So #noteveryveteran.

Offer some feedback it's all open for discussion.

[SmilyFace 300]

Beautiful document. I am really surprised to see peoples still interested in this game, wow.

 

I agree with most of those changes (well, suggestions for now) and i hope LO will listen to its community because i would like to see this game living for many more years because actually.. well.. is not in the best state.

[Milim 32]

5 hours ago, Deadliest said:

wish apb had projectile mechanics and just get rid of stupid bullet RNG hitscan. 

 

+ Most guns feel like they don't even have vertical recoil.

 

 

Along side some precise gun play with recoil mechanics instead of the current bloom system they use now.

[PvE 33]

3 hours ago, Running Eagle said:

This document's contents intends to make APB's rock-paper-scissors gameplay based on weapon class as a baseline (AR as scissors, shotgun as rock, marksman as paper) instead of fleshing out the gameplay type and keeping the guns unique within their class (cobra barber scissors, atac poultry shears, misery embroidery scissors....)  And actually to kind of keep with my euphemism here, if ARs are scissors, the NTEC is and has always been for a long time that all-purpose pair of scissors your mother keeps in the junk drawer in the kitchen that she uses to open packages, cut your hair, and trim the dingleberries off the dog's patootie when they start to clump up -- and your adjustments here seek to take trauma shears made out of high grade surgical steel, as well as a pair of hedge trimmers used to do landscaping, and make both of them look and function almost identically to the junk-drawer, all-purpose, dingleberry-cutting scissors with the indestructible plastic thumb holes your mom refuses to replace because somehow they never actually need to be sharpened thanks to some inexplicable form of dollar-store sorcery.

 

I get what your reasons are for the changes described here.

 

I'm 100% positive that it will remove the variety and uniqueness of the guns and still make them useless compared to the contact rentable guns for the opposite reason:  they're too similar to each other and therefore there would be no real reason beyond aesthetics to spend G1C/JT on acquiring them.  If they are all equally as effective as each other within a negligible margin of applicable difference, it would make every gun a remesh/reskin of each other and essentially bring every class of gun back down to only having 2 types of guns per class.

 

Yes I understand there are 'technical differences' between the guns as you are describing them by stats, but when put to play-testing the applicable differences would be, as I said, negligible.  Which, in the end, would be time and effort spent by the dev team to make the guns represent your proposal, only to leave them literally as purposeless as they currently are, except they wouldn't suffer from not being competitive like they currently do, they'd just....be fancy skins and sounds on the same old same old same old guns we've had since launch.

 

Edit: I 100% agree with the idea that RNG based guns need to be less RNG based, but in exchange for that, they need to have SLOWER TTK.  I am extremely suspect of the idea of making both the PMG and Carbine "more accurate" when every PMG and carbine I face off against somehow manages to have 80+% accuracy from LITERALLY any range within its current "effective range" value.  Consistently PMG users seem to be able to not only track perfectly but additionally completely remove the 'rng' nature of the gun because 5 shots are fired and 5 shots land about 90% of the time when fighting a PMG in asylum, and 6 shots are fired and 6 shots land from the carbine on ANY map at ANY range it seems.  Outside 35m it doesnt kill in 6 shots but I'll be damned if they don't still land all 6 shots.  And it's very clear, as you can listen and count the gunshot sounds up to your death.  Well, MY death.

 

So the insistence that two guns that people use that seem to only miss 1-3 bullets per magazine, need to be made MORE accurate and less RNG based, is incredibly suspicious to me.  I wonder if you would recommend the same for the .45 and additionally give it another bullet in the mag just in case....

PMG within the document is nerfed, range and firerate wise. The carbine is an amazing weapon with an average TTK but maining it is pain due to the poor accuracy of the gun hence why it referred to as an "RNG Cannon" which isn't a term that should be used to describe a gun. Based on what is this is trying to accomplish is a sense of balance sure sub-classes will have around the same TTK but what more can be done with balance even if TTK is similar different guns have different mechanics. 

[Milim 32]

2 hours ago, Speedz said:

Nice read. I assume the shotgun changes in this doc are with Per Ray Damage scaling? And what do you mean with "set spread" for the CSG, something like we had back in the days with the pellet circle?

 

You might also have to update Low-Yields on that document, their Radius was already nerfed to 550 cm, a bit lower than the suggestion to keep the 3rd nade.

Correct, something similar to the pellet circle we used to have.

[PvE 33]

9 hours ago, Speedz said:

Nice read. I assume the shotgun changes in this doc are with Per Ray Damage scaling? And what do you mean with "set spread" for the CSG, something like we had back in the days with the pellet circle?

 

You might also have to update Low-Yields on that document, their Radius was already nerfed to 550 cm, a bit lower than the suggestion to keep the 3rd nade.

Modified the document to further specify what is intended. Also the radius was decreased as well as multiple damage values were nerfed, i believe it was an over complicated nerf. 

10 hours ago, Shini said:

It's good to see the document. I find myself agreeing with with a lot of the suggestions there. Some I don't agree but it's whatever.

The document is useful for the devs for sure with regards to the bigger picture as the main problem is the forums are quite incoherant a lot of the time with unconstructive feedback.

Offer some feedback it's all open for discussion.

 

Merged.

 

9 hours ago, swft said:

Nice to see a document with actual values instead of just words, I agree with most of it even though there's a few more guns that need to be adjusted too, like the Obir.

Spill the details!

[NotZombieBiscuit 3146]

Decrease the maximum magazine size to 24 from 32

Increase shot modifier cap to 2.5 from 1.6

      - Increase jump modifier to 20 from 12

 

 

 

Mate.

Edited January 30, 2020 by NotZombieBiscuit

[PvE 33]

1 minute ago, NotZombieBiscuit said:

Decrease the maximum magazine size to 24 from 32

Increase shot modifier cap to 2.5 from 1.6

      - Increase jump modifier to 20 from 12

 

 

 

Mate.

Yeah but with the current change that hit live servers yesterday it's essentially the same just added the mag adjustment.

[NotZombieBiscuit 3146]

1 minute ago, PvE said:

Yeah but with the current change that hit live servers yesterday it's essentially the same just added the mag adjustment.

Yeah, fuck giving weapons mobility/jumping in a fast paced shooter. 

 

 

Might as well screw over blue mods on it as an added.

Edited January 30, 2020 by NotZombieBiscuit

[PvE 33]

1 minute ago, NotZombieBiscuit said:

Yeah, fuck giving weapons mobility/jumping in a fast paced shooter. 

 

 

Might as well screw over blue mods on it as an added.

I think the honorable Ntec can handle the wall bashing it's getting even with that change i would still main it.

[NotZombieBiscuit 3146]

Just now, PvE said:

I think the honorable Ntec can handle the wall bashing it's getting even with that change i would still main it.

Condor looking real sweet right now.