Remember Loot Boxes? Either keep them off this game for good or make this game Adults Only (ESRB Rating)

[Spy 152]

1 hour ago, Benguin said:

just move to the netherlands problem solved man

Nah, I live in the Netherlands and if I want lootboxes then I'll just boot up a VPN, problem solved.

[Fortune Runner 796]

46 minutes ago, ScLines said:

If one game has gambling but all the others that have the same thing don't get regulated that seems alright to you? I disagree. Gambling is simply not for adolescents or children, and more and more it is shown that loot boxes have gambling-like mechanics since you are paying for a chance on a random reward, exactly like gambling even if you dont get a cash reward back. It is still predatory monetization.

 

Once the snowball gets going, just like what Belgium and Netherlands did. If UK follows them, no matter what some people that support loot boxes can't argue against the majority of people that are against it. It is that simple.

Once again you are missing my points.

1 hour ago, Fortune Runner said:

I think you missed my point on this.

I never said laws aren't in place and/or shouldn't be.

Part of the problem is parents not properly parenting.

Making more laws while denying parental responsibility does not fix anything.

Both have to be addressed or nothing is solved.

 

Denying parental responsibility is how we got to this point to begin with.

To be blunt : stop talking and start reading. I said enough times that I never said not to make proper laws but to also make sure all parts were addressed such as parental responsibility.

 

19 minutes ago, greenfield said:

Its quite surprising seeing that there are players supporting or at least not minding loot boxes. I personally would've preferred to pay a bit more but know exactly what i'm getting.

I don't think anyone said contrary to that.

But ScLines implying "loot boxes on APB are evil just because it is elsewhere" is complete bull

 

Why do i think he is implying that?

Why else would he be on me thumping so much to conform to him when I never said to not make proper laws.

18 minutes ago, Spy said:

Nah, I live in the Netherlands and if I want lootboxes then I'll just boot up a VPN, problem solved.

and its possible to do that for free

[MattScott 15242]

Hi all,

 

This is an issue that we are watching very carefully, and from my perspective, there are multiple angles to consider.

 

1) I absolutely agree that dangerous gambling mechanics should not be available to kids.

 

The problem I see is creating good laws that clearly defining bad gambling practices so publishers can make the proper changes. There is a world of difference between the Belgium law and the Netherlands law. One is very straight forward and easy to comply with. The other is a vague mess.

 

Let me give you some examples:

- Is any form of purchasable randomized reward gambling? Is there an acceptable payout threshold that makes it okay?

- What if the rewards are not tradeable or sellable to other players? Does gambling require the element of "recoupment" if you hit the jackpot?

- What if the randomized reward boxes are gathered via gameplay in addition to being purchasable? Are they still gambling?

 

Lawmakers need to establish a clear set of guidelines. They are going to directly affect an entire industry of companies, jobs, and players.

Hopefully they wont drag us into another Article 13 mess.

 

2) I feel that parents have a responsibility to monitor their child's activities.

 

It is impossible for a child to get a credit card, so if they have access to money for these systems, then it is because an adult gave it to them at some point.

Also APB is an M rated game and it should stay that way.

The Adults Only rating is something altogether different. Prolonged sex or violence and real money gambling - not gambling-style practices.

I'm not sure how much further we can go to subsidize the parent's role here.

 

3) Replacing these mechanics takes time - if it can be done at all.

 

I don't feel that players completely understand the financial impact that this new legislation will have on game companies. Not all games have monetization mechanics yet that they can survive on if their loot boxes are removed. So I also think players need to be prepared for many games to simply shutdown when this eventual legislation passes. Perhaps that is okay. But I'm guessing that many players will be upset when their favorite, smaller game doesn't make it.

 

For APB, we are committed to making the game a safe place to play - including removing loot box mechanics.

 

We have spent months designing a replacement system that still preserves the fun aspects of chasing, collecting and selling Legendary weapons. It has taken a lot of brainstorming and work on our part, and it will require a significant level of development that we have to accomplish alongside the Engine Upgrade and other priorities. Even then, our new strategy carries a lot of economic risk that may or may not damage the game long term.

 

Ultimately my preference is to move slowly and work with lawmakers on a reasonable timeline that we can all meet together.

 

Thanks,
Matt

[otto___ 3]

Alcohol is bad too but is not banned, you can choose to commit stupid acts. It's your own fault if you do something.

 

 

 

 

 

 Loot box mechanics are good should stay as they support the game and the company.

[RandomCatface 16]

I feel like loot boxes are a lazy way out. Less content more rng $.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, ScLines said:

Bla bla aight, i got it dude.

Alright.. so, did you ever made a little search about APB being PEGI/ESRB? I don't think so.

Now i don't know if is still active but i think it is.

Or check out by yourself the website at in case you don't trust in screenshots> https://www.esrb.org/ratings/31254/APB+Reloaded/

 

I agree with some rules that didn't got ever applied to games industries, but i need to disagree for the other 95%.

Kids shouldn't be here, this game is rated 17+, same story same sentence since AGES.

I do agree that a F2P game need to have some sort of store, where you can buy stuff, to support the company and help them with various things, i don't exactly knoow where and how Little Orbit operate with our money but of course they do something related the game and/or the company.

 

They're actually trying to get much more things from ARMAS to the Joker Store Distribution (the one you can find into the Breakwater Marina, Social District).

Just.. don't talk about gambling man, or should we talk about a game rated 3+ PEGI released one week ago full of that sh*t?

In MY opinion, APB Reloaded is becoming better and better overtime, you need to be patient.

I do think of course that many thigns need to be adjusted and changed, also removed, but im not here to defend it, im just saying what i think, and what you should know before posting something like this.

 

2 hours ago, Benguin said:

just move to the netherlands problem solved man

Approved

 

2 hours ago, ScLines said:

Then keep children or adolescents out of gambling/predatory monetization in video games. The very least, don't get them involved. That's a big problem currently in the gaming industry.

I don't understand where and what is your actual problem with that, really.

So.. you are saying that WE or LITTLE ORBIT should keep away those type of peoples? Just because the game allow you to spend real money in cosmetics and various other things?

It's a choice YOU as person need to do, you want to spend real money? You are free to do it.

You don't want to spend real money and prefer to spend Joker Tickets? You are free to do it.

You don't want to spend both currency? You are free to do it, but don't call APB Reloaded as a money grab game or the type of other games.

If you are an adult you should be able to make decisions by yourself, like i said above if you don't want to spend nothing, just don't do that.

You are a children maybe? You got not more than 18 years old? Same thing.

If you need to ask to your father or your mather, then don't ask and don't spend them, if ANY person get involved, it's not our problem.

 

I could even kill with a simple FBW, i personally don't care about all those weapons on the ARMAS, yes, i have all of them, because i can, i have the avaiability and i love to support the company of the game.

Or maybe you can't because you don't have that avaiability? Just practice with other guns, most of the ARMAS ones are reskins and if not, well.. not much changes.

 

2 hours ago, Sayori said:

What are you talking about?

They’re not loot boxes, they’re surprise mechanics, and they’re quite ethical!

#EA

 

 

27 minutes ago, MattScott said:

Removing Lott Boxes etc

Thank you very much Matt, i appreciate that.

Finally someone with knowledge.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Guest

[claude 223]

2 hours ago, ScLines said:

Remember a while back when I posted about loot boxes being harmful? They are harmful after all and this time there is lengthy study and evidence that can't be denied. Especially since this report from the UK just came out.

 

 

You already said what you are going to do for this game but I still stand by my opinion. Feel free to disagree but I don't think you can really defend these practices too much, especially with children exposed to this. Have the game without the predatory practices or make this game played by adults only. It is that simple.

 

P.S: Even if you disclosed the odds of loot boxes that doesnt circumvent gambling laws and regulations.

love how people link yongyeas videos all the time when this topic pops up, but they completely disregard the fact that his videos are about companies who make games for children to gamble on, or companies that sell $60 games with lootboxes. Yong has said time and time again that he believes lootboxes on Free to Play titles are understandable, since the game needs to be monetized somehow. JMBs are hardly predatory, players cannot gain any advantage over other players with JMBs that are otherwise accessible in game, for free. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, claude said:

love how people link yongyeas videos all the time when this topic pops up, but they completely disregard the fact that his videos are about companies who make games for children to gamble on, or companies that sell $60 games with lootboxes. Yong has said time and time again that he believes lootboxes on Free to Play titles are understandable, since the game needs to be monetized somehow. JMBs are hardly predatory, players cannot gain any advantage over other players with JMBs that are otherwise accessible in game, for free. 

 That's what i love to see 

[Benguin 141]

1 hour ago, MattScott said:

 

If the outcome is uncertain it's gamling. Not sure whats hard about that. Not that I care about it, just putting content behind gambling boxes is a bit of a shame.

 

 just gather 8 million apb rubles to get the newest weapon

Edited September 14, 2019 by Benguin

[ScLines 13]

41 minutes ago, claude said:

love how people link yongyeas videos all the time when this topic pops up, but they completely disregard the fact that his videos are about companies who make games for children to gamble on, or companies that sell $60 games with lootboxes. Yong has said time and time again that he believes lootboxes on Free to Play titles are understandable, since the game needs to be monetized somehow. JMBs are hardly predatory, players cannot gain any advantage over other players with JMBs that are otherwise accessible in game, for free. 

I can be wrong on this but these predatory practices are both bad in my book and not just in $60 dollar games and in F2P. Cant say too much but I do know regulations around the world are slowly making their judgments on these practices. So whatever rules each country makes is up to them.

 

I can still see people defending loot boxes or in any of these practices that I have mentioned. Telling me I need to read this and that. You disagree? That's fine. I am not fond of these predatory monetizations myself.

 

These predatory monetizations are already an open secret from reports I have seen on the media. Remember this video I posted on this guy explaining exactly what they are? He even said to leave morality out of it.

 

Developers and publishers are pretty much interested in getting as much money as possible, basically this video sums up the predatory practices. Doesnt just apply to mobile games now does it?

[Fortune Runner 796]

28 minutes ago, ScLines said:

Developers and publishers are pretty much interested in getting as much money as possible

Little Orbit is not predatory

This is APB we are talking about.

[Hexerin 1140]

4 hours ago, Fortune Runner said:

-snip-

Imagine being such a waste of human life that you would actually defend loot boxes.

[Fortune Runner 796]

11 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Imagine being such a waste of human life that you would actually defend loot boxes.

I never did. But then again its coming from you.

 

Edit :

near the bottom talking to greenfield.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Fortune Runner

[ScLines 13]

Thank you @MattScott for replying to this thread.

 

I read your post and I think I got the main idea of the post.

 

You say you want to know what you can and cannot do when it comes to monetizations in video games. I can understand that. It's too early to say what will happen to the North American market for example but other countries have made their choice and so far it seems to be a snowball effect that others will follow suit, but who knows.

 

Have you also looked at the human side of things? These 'predatory' monetization examples I talked about maybe making a lot of money for certain developers but you are also preying on people with shopping addictions etc. There's a reason why gambling as you know is regulated and never has really been done in video games until recently. It is a bit sad to hear certain people getting addicted to these 'predatory' practices and not being able to control it. Gambling regulations that currently exists isnt perfect but it's better than nothing at all and might happen to video games at some point. Dont know if you remember this video but it does explain on that presentation video and the addictive nature on these practices. It's worth seeing.

 

 

 

[TheDogCatcher 176]

I've never really had a problem with free to play games having loot boxes ( AAA games having them is a whole other matter), you need to be able to monetise the game somehow, servers and staff all cost money.

 

Cosmetic items don't really bring in enough money because there's a finite number of these items available to buy, and once you've got them all (or all the ones you want) there's no real incentive to spend any more money. A game like APB needs something to keep generating revenue long term and other than loot boxes there's only premium which again suffers from the issue of being limited in the amount it can generate ( you will only buy 1 month's worth of premium per month) .

 

So really unless a better alternative can be found loot boxes are kind of a neccessary evil if this game is to pay for itself.

 

There are issues with loot boxes for sure but they are problems with individuals who lack self control or people who don't properly supervise their children, I'm not sure that these are the people we should have dictating to us with regards to what we can and can't enjoy.

 

If people have gambling problems maybe they should avoid games with loot boxes, and if people can't adequately supervise their kids then maybe they need a sharp kick in the wallet to teach them a lesson.

Edited September 14, 2019 by TheDogCatcher

[Doom32 23]

3 hours ago, MattScott said:

Hi all,

 

This is an issue that we are watching very carefully, and from my perspective, there are multiple angles to consider.

 

1) I absolutely agree that dangerous gambling mechanics should not be available to kids.

 

The problem I see is creating good laws that clearly defining bad gambling practices so publishers can make the proper changes. There is a world of difference between the Belgium law and the Netherlands law. One is very straight forward and easy to comply with. The other is a vague mess.

 

Let me give you some examples:

- Is any form of purchasable randomized reward gambling? Is there an acceptable payout threshold that makes it okay?

- What if the rewards are not tradeable or sellable to other players? Does gambling require the element of "recoupment" if you hit the jackpot?

- What if the randomized reward boxes are gathered via gameplay in addition to being purchasable? Are they still gambling?

 

Lawmakers need to establish a clear set of guidelines. They are going to directly affect an entire industry of companies, jobs, and players.

Hopefully they wont drag us into another Article 13 mess.

 

2) I feel that parents have a responsibility to monitor their child's activities.

 

It is impossible for a child to get a credit card, so if they have access to money for these systems, then it is because an adult gave it to them at some point.

Also APB is an M rated game and it should stay that way.

The Adults Only rating is something altogether different. Prolonged sex or violence and real money gambling - not gambling-style practices.

I'm not sure how much further we can go to subsidize the parent's role here.

 

3) Replacing these mechanics takes time - if it can be done at all.

 

I don't feel that players completely understand the financial impact that this new legislation will have on game companies. Not all games have monetization mechanics yet that they can survive on if their loot boxes are removed. So I also think players need to be prepared for many games to simply shutdown when this eventual legislation passes. Perhaps that is okay. But I'm guessing that many players will be upset when their favorite, smaller game doesn't make it.

 

For APB, we are committed to making the game a safe place to play - including removing loot box mechanics.

 

We have spent months designing a replacement system that still preserves the fun aspects of chasing, collecting and selling Legendary weapons. It has taken a lot of brainstorming and work on our part, and it will require a significant level of development that we have to accomplish alongside the Engine Upgrade and other priorities. Even then, our new strategy carries a lot of economic risk that may or may not damage the game long term.

 

Ultimately my preference is to move slowly and work with lawmakers on a reasonable timeline that we can all meet together.

 

Thanks,
Matt

Issue can simply be resolved by putting the weapons on armas marketplace, as a person who spent a lot of money and has a lot of the loot box weapons, I don't mind this move, I think its a better option, plus maybe sales will increase. 

[ScLines 13]

25 minutes ago, TheDogCatcher said:

I've never really had a problem with free to play games having loot boxes ( AAA games having them is a whole other matter), you need to be able to monetise the game somehow, servers and staff all cost money.

 

Cosmetic items don't really bring in enough money because there's a finite number of these items available to buy, and once you've got them all (or all the ones you want) there's no real incentive to spend any more money. A game like APB needs something to keep generating revenue long term and other than loot boxes there's only premium which again suffers from the issue of being limited in the amount it can generate ( you will only buy 1 month's worth of premium per month) .

 

So really unless a better alternative can be found loot boxes are kind of a neccessary evil if this game is to pay for itself.

 

There are issues with loot boxes for sure but they are problems with individuals who lack self control or people who don't properly supervise their children, I'm not sure that these are the people we should have dictating to us with regards to what we can and can't enjoy.

 

If people have gambling problems maybe they should avoid games with loot boxes, and if people can't adequately supervise their kids then maybe they need a sharp kick in the wallet to teach them a lesson.

Being able to make a good profit on video games has long existed before microtransactions came in. And even if the game sells very well with the 'predatory' monetization there are still lay-offs despite all the profits. So it doesnt seem to make a difference.

 

I don't know if you have ever dealt with anyone or someone that you know has addiction problems when it comes to shopping or gambling but this is a big problem. It is not something you can simply turn off, it doesn't work that way. It is very easy to be there and saying 'they should of known better'. There are people that try to escape other forms of addictions and turn to videogames for that but fall prey on the 'predatory' monetization. It is even worse when children/adolescents get involved. Parental supervisory or keeping an eye on your credit card is simply not enough. It is a problem that could easily be fixed by not having the 'predatory' monetization. 

 

Some have already argued ideas that they need to keep these bad designs and practices just to stay in business. If you are really relying on those for those reasons, maybe you shouldn't be in video game business. There are other safe ways to make money in video games whether you are a big company or a small company etc.

 

I may be repeating these points what some others have said already but I stand by these points that I have said.

 

[Fortune Runner 796]

56 minutes ago, ScLines said:

I don't know if you have ever dealt with anyone or someone that you know has addiction problems when it comes to shopping or gambling but this is a big problem. It is not something you can simply turn off, it doesn't work that way. It is very easy to be there and saying 'they should of known better'. There are people that try to escape other forms of addictions and turn to videogames for that but fall prey on the 'predatory' monetization. It is even worse when children/adolescents get involved. Parental supervisory or keeping an eye on your credit card is simply not enough. It is a problem that could easily be fixed by not having the 'predatory' monetization.  

People who have addiction problems choose it.

The only ones who can be helped are the ones who want help.

 

Parents who have a credit card should not give it to their children for loot boxes.

The parents are responsible for that.

Every time you say "Think of the children" you remind me of the Simpsons.

Stop refusing to take responsibility and pushing the blame elsewhere.

 

As for predatory monetization , where in APB is that done to milk us?

As an example : To say killing someone is evil so self defense is evil is bull shit.

The same goes for loot boxes that are not milking us for predatory monetization on APB which has already been shown its a M rating plus parents are responsible for their own children BY LAW

 

can you just stop now please?

[ScLines 13]

12 minutes ago, Fortune Runner said:

People who have addiction problems choose it.

The only ones who can be helped are the ones who want help.

 

Parents who have a credit card should not give it to their children for loot boxes.

The parents are responsible for that.

Every time you say "Think of the children" you remind me of the Simpsons.

Stop refusing to take responsibility and pushing the blame elsewhere.

 

As for predatory monetization , where in APB is that done to milk us?

As an example : To say killing someone is evil so self defense is evil is bull shit.

The same goes for loot boxes that are not milking us for predatory monetization on APB which has already been shown its a M rating plus parents are responsible for their own children BY LAW

 

can you just stop now please?

Nope. My opinion and stance isn't going to change and neither will yours. I keep my opinions and you keep yours.

[Fortune Runner 796]

11 minutes ago, ScLines said:

Nope. My opinion and stance isn't going to change and neither will yours. I keep my opinions and you keep yours.

That is fine to have your own opinion ,  however trying to beat people down until they conform to you is wrong.

can you stop please?

 

As for my opinion - most of what I said is facts.

There is a reason why my opinion will not call everything evil.

I try my best to base my opinions on truth.

 

By the way aren't you the guy who did this exact thread a year ago?

Because this argument of yours is word for word of that other time.

[CookiePuss 5378]

Imagine designing a world around addicts.

Hard pass.

[yood 345]

parents are obliged to monitor the activities of their child. dangerous game mechanics should not be available to children.

[Alani 475]

idk why people wanna complain about 'loot boxes' on APB.

 

when its been a part of the game well before these things became a major problem

 

lmfao

[CookiePuss 5378]

This just in, businesses try to make money, and people choose whether or not to give it to them.

 

Stay tuned for more things you would think are obvious, but apparently aren't.

[Salvick 248]

I've been buying Kinder Surprise for a whole year attempting to complete my collection of toys without success so I'm suing the company, lol.

 

Jokes apart, before I state my opinion let me bring my experience, when OCA Nano was released I bought something around +200 boxes till I got it, then I stopped and barely bought any JMBoxes anymore except when I was doing other purchases and had some G1C change to spare. Since then I bought all the legendary guns I wanted for my collection from other players or earned them from special boxes from events or from these boxes I bought as I just described. So...

 

...while I could say that I "stopped" spending my money in looting boxes I've been still pushing the system to keep working by taking part of the in-game trading, that's why no one of us could say "I'm against" the existence of the looting boxes. Also, everything I got from these boxes I bought was worth in terms of G1C value since I ended up with a couple of years of premium, special items such as leased cars and weapons and royalty rewards, and I'm really pleased with what I got.

 

What made me decide to stop buying anything was Tiggs...no, I'm joking, but it was because I decided to put a limit and decide how much money a game worth to me, I'm old fashioned and nostalgic so that's why I'd like to pay for a game just once and have it in my library for ever. But I understand that companies are making their business and is that business what granted me and everyone of us a lot of awesome titles and in-game content that we enjoy so I support companies selling in-game content besides how much it secretly annoys me.

 

The thing is when the marketing teams take over and they attempt to apply business strategies that aim to certain targeted audience based solely in probabilities of free to paid conversion rates  and average money spent. And that's the thing that ruins the experience for many people imo, but the new generations of gamers are already born with these mechanics in place so they are naturalizing these practices.

 

I totally agree that someone should know exactly what is going to get for the money they spend but I also think that gambling is an individual decision that any adult should and could make, addicted or not, and what people decides to make with their money couldn't be an argument to discuss how to change laws, a business or game mechanics.

 

 

Now, here I'm with what Matt  said on his post:

8 hours ago, MattScott said:

[...]

1) I absolutely agree that dangerous gambling mechanics should not be available to kids.

 

[...]

 

Let me give you some examples:

- Is any form of purchasable randomized reward gambling? Is there an acceptable payout threshold that makes it okay?

- What if the rewards are not tradeable or sellable to other players? Does gambling require the element of "recoupment" if you hit the jackpot?

- What if the randomized reward boxes are gathered via gameplay in addition to being purchasable? Are they still gambling?

 

[...]

2) I feel that parents have a responsibility to monitor their child's activities.

 

It is impossible for a child to get a credit card, so if they have access to money for these systems, then it is because an adult gave it to them at some point.

 

[...]

3) Replacing these mechanics takes time - if it can be done at all.

 

I don't feel that players completely understand the financial impact that this new legislation will have on game companies.

 

[...]

For APB, we are committed to making the game a safe place to play - including removing loot box mechanics.

 

 

Thanks,
Matt

 

And after all this I think that only thing that a company might change is not the business model but probably the target audience, because I do agree with some people saying that many of us would like to just buy the stuff we want, and although the "whale" players are already profiled and their purchasing habits are way long established there is no data on what people is not buying and what makes them decide to not buy something.

 

The conversion rates for free-to-play games used to be really low, (something between 2% to 5% of their player base) but along time the new generations are used to this methods of monetization and there's more and more people willing to take advantage of paid content and other services since almost every single game released is coming with some sort of system such as DLC, loot boxes or exclusive assets and gameplay buffs.

 

 

The only solution I can imagine disregarding my ignorance in this matter is some times is a currency like the Joker Tickets being available for some purchases in the ARMAS market, that way freebies could access to paid content as a reward for populating the game while anyone who wants to pay cash will keep doing it.  his could work with some sort of 1 item at once progression where you pick the item you want to get and you start playing to gather the needed currency, like a progression bar you have to fill up once you trigger it.

 

 This way also the company gets a lot of data about trends and items of interest, but also when the player is at half progression or more the game could pop-up segmented offers for them to buy the remaining currency they need to finally get what they are looking for and that's a great way to convert freebies to paid customers by making them feel they will pay 20 bucks for something that could be priced at 100.

 

Whales will always be the main support for any small populated game, but occasional buyers could inflate the numbers as long as there's some attraction in the game for them to keep the population raising.

 

TL:DR:

There's no tl:dr so just sorry for tl:dr.

 

Edited September 15, 2019 by Salvick