Weapon Prototype Districts 1.20.0 (1158)

[Hexerin 1140]

21 minutes ago, Nitronik said:

My issue with the OCA nerf is its accuracy.

Imagine if every gun in the game had good accuracy as a baseline.

[Thial 176]

lmao what are those changes ?
LO if you really want to balance the weapons then hire some people who actually know how to play the game and are on the top when it comes to skill and the usage of said guns.

Everyone has been saying for months that rfp only requires a range nerf yet you are introducing some ridiculous range buff with a damage nerf.
Don't change the base functionality of the weapons.
Now you are reaffirming people even more that it's a pocket obir.

Edited August 17, 2019 by Thial

[Nitronik 348]

2 hours ago, Hexerin said:

Imagine if every gun in the game had good accuracy as a baseline.

Average TTK goes down since you hit your shots more often. So ideally they'd also nerf drop off / min damage range (which are two things I've been suggesting get done to SMG for a while)

[WoRkMaGiC 0]

On 8/14/2019 at 7:56 PM, Asu said:

literally just said they suck

I agree, I think the RFP-9 "Talon" needs its accuracy nerf a bit. This weapon can hit a enemy without reticule being place precisely on that target.

Edited August 18, 2019 by WoRkMaGiC

[Genobee 143]

Really liking those OCA changes, for the most part. Now what in hell is going on with that RFP nonsense? I can't really say anything that hasn't already been said but... why?!

 

I mean I'm happy these changes are being tested by the community as a whole before getting thrown out into the wild. Helps catch major issues like that RFP insanity. I mean if that thing went live it'd be that much more of an issue versus alternative options. It's just that something like this shouldn't have even made it this far. It eclipses the other secondaries in a whole new way that should be rather obvious at a glance. 

 

My worry is that whomever is behind these changes is also going to be spearheading future weapon tweaks. Which I can't say I have any confidence at all in. The person or people working on these changes need to invest substantially more time in researching item balance. Don't forget that the current state of things is but one part of it all. Browsing through past changes would be quite useful too. As there are similar examples to this very same problem that did go live. 

 

To be quite honest: it pisses me off that this was even announced as a possible change. I used to maintain documents on player feedback, a spreadsheet on the current state of weapons, possible tweaks, intended roles, and things of that variety. Of which I used to suggest possible alterations to help bring problematic items back in line. Typically recommending the most minimal of tweaks possible. Example: N-TEC 5 weapon damage being brought down by -5 from a ways back. I've got a truly ancient suggestion on that in the old SPCT forums along with a slew of other balance tweaks*. A chunk of which were actually used.

 

That was as a damned volunteer. Not to mention only one of a long list of things I did under the old SPCT program. Your paid employees are doing LESS it feels like. 

 

*Many of the ideas were the result of discussing potential options while combing over damage numbers with other people. I won't list them here, but I can add 'em in at a later time. Credit where it is due and such. Also item usage stats were personal observations. As were some pieces we couldn't get, but the point is that a lot of work went into it.

[Revoluzzer 274]

On 8/15/2019 at 3:56 PM, killerskull said:

The problem Ive alwys found is that oca/pmg and others for close range are king, cqc to medium is the joker and ntec and then long range is just the hvr. Obir and obeya are weak. I think the entire map design and weapon ranges dont leave much room for obir and obeya.

The maps are designed incredibly well - for a higher average TTK. And the Obeya and OBIR would be more popular if the N-Tec didn't poach in their territory.

 

 

7 hours ago, Nitronik said:

My issue with the OCA nerf is its accuracy. Due to its nature, the TTK will always fluctuate upwards a bit - which is why I think a full revert to .7 is a bad idea (and would much prefer the .686 of the other dist)

A TTK of 0.7s with a relatively stable accuracy is perfectly fine. That's how the gun worked originally and that's when it was most balanced. Gradual accuracy loss with CJ3 equipped did balance that one out fine, too.

 

 

7 hours ago, Hexerin said:

Imagine if every gun in the game had good accuracy as a baseline.

This would reduce the variety you can have. The N-Tec and STAR should be very similar and mainly distinguish themselves by initial precision (i.e. N-Tec: high; STAR: low) and accuracy over time (i.e. N-Tec: low; STAR: high). But for some reason the N-Tec also got a better ROF and slightly more damage on top.

[Darkzero3802 611]

Gee the test districts are dead, what a shock. Nobody wants to play a buffed RFP match and you gave out RFPs to everyone. Im sorry but where is the logical thinking in giving everybody the ability to abuse the gun in the reg districts? (For 15 days to boot)

[Hexerin 1140]

5 hours ago, Revoluzzer said:

The maps are designed incredibly well - for a higher average TTK.

Something that most either forget, or were never aware of in the first place. This game wasn't originally designed in a way that you died in a fraction of a second...

[supermariobrothe 80]

rofl, good job LO, ever since you sent everyone and their mom those test weapons, every district is now a fang town, its great, oh and no ones using them in the test districts ironically

[CookiePuss 5378]

5 hours ago, Darkzero3802 said:

Gee the test districts are dead, what a shock. Nobody wants to play a buffed RFP match and you gave out RFPs to everyone. Im sorry but where is the logical thinking in giving everybody the ability to abuse the gun in the reg districts? (For 15 days to boot)

They're just normal guns in other districts though. 

Not like no one had access to them before. 

[Lord Cashpoint 269]

18 hours ago, Revoluzzer said:

The maps are designed incredibly well - for a higher average TTK. And the Obeya and OBIR would be more popular if the N-Tec didn't poach in their territory.

 

I was under the impression that Obeya is already fairly popular. The weapon has a very forgiving damage drop off, ludicrous over damage per shot (HB3 doesn't even add another shot to kill), as well as the ability to fire at almost maximum fire rate without a particularly onerous accuracy penalty. It's an incredibly strong weapon - only the monster which remains the HVR is able to realistically keep it in check at the very long ranges. OBIR is not as widely used just because in general it's less forgiving when it comes to missing shots (and because the Obeya is typically the better choice). I may be biased when it comes to the N-tec, but if you were to nerf it before looking at other very powerful weapons (Such as HVR) you'd further accelerate the polarisation of combat ranges in this game, where people elect to either go for the very close range weapons, or the very long range weapons, as those two categories seem to be the only reliable options.

 

I have a hard time believing that the maps were designed with any sort of combat specifically in mind - there are certainly areas where a longer TTK would make far more sense, but there are also parts of the map where along TTK would make gun fights overly drawn out affairs.

 

In any case the intended design is probably redundant anyway -  I couldn't see the original RTW design team knowing that vehicle heavy gameplay would become a sort of norm, otherwise they may have made more areas inaccessible to vehicles. Additionally, mission design often forces you into one of two situations:

• The objective is in an enclosed area where the maximum combat range is scarcely above 15m - playing very aggressive with close range weapons are required
• The objective can be seen for miles around in at least 3 different directions - taking long range weapons will be a priority (but even still close range weapons are useful for rushing the defenders)

All of these issues are probably way beyond what Little Orbit should be focusing on right now - I'm glad to see the OCA/RFP combo being tackled in one go, as it was perhaps one of the most painful set-ups to play against. I just wish with the RFP they wouldn't go down that classic route of not being happy to just nerf a weapon, instead adding a new upside to it for no reason.

[cowhorseman 441]

when the hell is the r-2 gonna be fixed. it's like an fbw but a rsa at the same time and it feels akward to use it in ethier fasion

[Hexerin 1140]

9 hours ago, Lord Cashpoint said:

otherwise they may have made more areas inaccessible to vehicles.

Vehicles were originally not nearly as accessible. Gamersfirst/Reloaded made a handful of changes that caused this current environment. They added additional car spawners around the maps, and removed the faction base usage restrictions (had to be Enforcer to use any of the amenities at an Enforcer base, such as Joker vending and car spawners), as two easy examples.

[CookiePuss 5378]

14 hours ago, Lord Cashpoint said:

I was under the impression that Obeya is already fairly popular.

Honestly, the Obeya is possibly the best weapon in the game.

[dett2 64]

That was unexpected lol

just nerf it , no need to range buff.

It's secondary.

[Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 269]

Are we going to receive a word or two from LO on these changes any time soon?

[GhosT 1301]

1 hour ago, Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 said:

Are we going to receive a word or two from LO on these changes any time soon?

 

Just gonna take another month or two.

[Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 269]

48 minutes ago, GhosT said:

 

Just gonna take another month or two.

I fucking hope not

[Bellenettiel 232]

On 8/15/2019 at 4:06 AM, Darkzero3802 said:

It still essentially matches an FFA / OBIR. It is a SECONDARY, it shouldn't be as good or better then a primary. 

is the accuracy even comparable to any of the primary burst rifles?

 

imo, i can't vouch for it being a good change, but it feels like they were striking for consistency instead of an outright buff or nerf.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Bellenettiel

[Revoluzzer 274]

On 8/18/2019 at 11:29 AM, Lord Cashpoint said:

I was under the impression that Obeya is already fairly popular. [...] I may be biased when it comes to the N-tec, but if you were to nerf it before looking at other very powerful weapons (Such as HVR) you'd further accelerate the polarisation of combat ranges in this game, where people elect to either go for the very close range weapons, or the very long range weapons, as those two categories seem to be the only reliable options.

I have to admit I barely play the game currently (this isn't exactly news to you in particular, I assume ;) ). But over the few hours I spent in Baylan Shipping FC recently the number of Obeyas I saw was negligible. The number of N-Tecs and its derivatives was more than expected.

 

Balancing the N-Tec doesn't have to leave the N-HVR untouched either. Both are - or should be - well known as problematic. And as far as I'm concerned both were also fairly easy to improve (N-Tec TTK up to 0.75; N-HVR damage down to 750). They should also revert the awful curve-based accuracy-kerfuffle which attempted to fix the N-Tec.

 

 

On 8/18/2019 at 11:29 AM, Lord Cashpoint said:

I have a hard time believing that the maps were designed with any sort of combat specifically in mind - there are certainly areas where a longer TTK would make far more sense, but there are also parts of the map where along TTK would make gun fights overly drawn out affairs.

 

In any case the intended design is probably redundant anyway -  I couldn't see the original RTW design team knowing that vehicle heavy gameplay would become a sort of norm, otherwise they may have made more areas inaccessible to vehicles. Additionally, mission design often forces you into one of two situations:

• The objective is in an enclosed area where the maximum combat range is scarcely above 15m - playing very aggressive with close range weapons are required
• The objective can be seen for miles around in at least 3 different directions - taking long range weapons will be a priority (but even still close range weapons are useful for rushing the defenders)

The maps were certainly designed with lots of combat in mind - if I remember correctly the designer of de_dust2 was on RTW's map design team?

Longer, more drawn out gunfights helped alleviate the poor respawn-system. I remember the game was originally more fun because more time was spent fighting than running back into combat. (Still at a very poor ratio, but better than now.)

Objectives were more regularly completed over the course of a constant back and forth, rather than during the time the entire enemy team was on their way back from the respawn area.

 

As Hexerin already mentioned player vehicles were originally not quite as common as they are now. But iirc they also had less health, which Gamersfirst later "fixed" because some players complained about it.

 

I agree that objectives are less than ideal and sometimes outright terrible and unfair (in fact I made lengthy, elaborate posts about this topic way back). But this was somewhat less of an issue when players didn't go down within a split second, unless they were subject to a coordinated attack by more than one enemy. And changing weapons to adapt to the current environment was much more common, unless you carried a N-Tec or N-HVR (with quickswitching from HVR to your secondary, originally!).

[Darkzero3802 611]

On 8/18/2019 at 3:05 AM, CookiePuss said:

They're just normal guns in other districts though. 

Not like no one had access to them before. 

The Nfas is a normal gun as well. Would you like that handed out for 15 days so everyone abuses it?

21 hours ago, Bellenettiel said:

is the accuracy even comparable to any of the primary burst rifles?

 

imo, i can't vouch for it being a good change, but it feels like they were striking for consistency instead of an outright buff or nerf.

Yes, its a burst pistol. ppl snipe with it np in its current form so increasing the range is warranted how? In its current form the RFP is consistent, consistently OP and abused. It can be used at all ranges and makes other pistols pointless not to mention with its pinpoint accuracy you can use it for that final kill shot from an OSMAW or qs the HVR. And no, the HVR wasnt ever nerfed as it is still very possible to qs with it as MS negates the increased equip time completely.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Amayii
Corrected the weapon name

[Lord Cashpoint 269]

2 hours ago, Revoluzzer said:

The maps were certainly designed with lots of combat in mind - if I remember correctly the designer of de_dust2 was on RTW's map design team?

Longer, more drawn out gunfights helped alleviate the poor respawn-system. I remember the game was originally more fun because more time was spent fighting than running back into combat. (Still at a very poor ratio, but better than now.)

Objectives were more regularly completed over the course of a constant back and forth, rather than during the time the entire enemy team was on their way back from the respawn area.

 

As Hexerin already mentioned player vehicles were originally not quite as common as they are now. But iirc they also had less health, which Gamersfirst later "fixed" because some players complained about it. 

  

I agree that objectives are less than ideal and sometimes outright terrible and unfair (in fact I made lengthy, elaborate posts about this topic way back). But this was somewhat less of an issue when players didn't go down within a split second, unless they were subject to a coordinated attack by more than one enemy. And changing weapons to adapt to the current environment was much more common, unless you carried a N-Tec or N-HVR (with quickswitching from HVR to your secondary, originally!). 

 

Yeah, perhaps I should have been more clear - I'm sure RTW didn't make the maps for anything other than combat. I suppose I've never been overly impressed by it - although I like the variety the maps bring, there are still certain areas (Such as Financial's Highway or the edges of Waterfront) that even with a longer TTK still stand out as being particularly poor. None of the spawn systems the game has ever had has done much to help, often only exacerbating the issue. The maps may have been better suited to longer TTK, but it didn't stop the combat itself from being quite boring (From the brief amount of RTW gameplay I saw and played there were certain areas with so much cover that every gunfight took forever).

 

I suppose if one aspect that lower TTK affects is that positioning becomes more important the faster you kill - as poor positioning will get you killed a lot faster than with the original TTK. As such I imagine the inadequacies of the map design become a lot sharper when you're very much relying on it. A dodgy hitbox on a wall, or a weirdly designed chokepoint may be overlooked if you're able to survive for longer under fire. I think a great deal would be helped by a much improved spawn system and a more consistent hit-reg on the server.

 

As for vehicles I'm still annoyed that the solution to cars dying too easily to explosives was to buff vehicle health, and not nerf explosive damage. We now have situations where a Vegas can survive being fired at by 3 players and manage to get away in time.

 

 

[vsb 6171]

49 minutes ago, Darkzero3802 said:

MS

mobility sling? doesn't that add equip time?

[Darkzero3802 611]

2 minutes ago, Solamente said:

mobility sling? doesn't that add equip time?

Yea I put the wrong thing, 3 point sling 3 is what I meant

[CookiePuss 5378]

2 hours ago, Darkzero3802 said:

The Nfas is a normal gun as well. Would you like that handed out for 15 days so everyone abuses it?

What? 

Who doesn't have access to an NFAS?