Volunteering to stop cheaters

[AutumnSan 12]

Hello,

 

I know there is volunteering to help the community and GM's, but it seems to come with many responsibilities and time consuming manner.

 

I have a suggestion to have a volunteering team solely to monitor cheaters and nothing else, as cheaters seem to be a big issue and downside to the game.

 

I can somewhat understand why volunteering is closed right now, as it probably takes time and practice to train a new volunteer on all the different roles they do, therefore I offer a split department or team to work on cheaters only. 

 

It should give the volunteers and GM's more space and freedom, as the volunteers won't be peering through every single report and complaint and only focus on cheaters. While GM's won't need to train them on all topics, like bug management, harassment, etc.

 

Please consider this.

 

Thank you for reading!

 

 

[gordIsMyName 104]

man... that's tough. but i hear exactly what you are saying.

 

/report is supposed to provide what you are talking about. it allows anyone who experiences unfair or griefing during the game to report the issue for investigation. but frankly, most folks have lost all hope and faith in using it. which prompts people to post topics like this... trying to find some resolution to the issue.

 

my experience is that there are so many drawbacks to "self-policing". that is why GM's are observers and nothing more. it's an "absolute power corrupts absolutely" issue.

 

LO is great with the principle of "if we ban, let's be 110% sure it is founded". it's just that there appears to be little movement around banning or... that the ban cycles are not frequent enough to suppress the issue.

 

on a very positive note... the new anti-cheat "Easy Anti-Cheat" has only been active for a few weeks. it takes some time for it to profile and learn. 

 

it can make a massive difference in short order if LO decides to unleash the beast.

 

maybe we will all feel different in a few weeks time?

[AutumnSan 12]

I hope so too.

 

I think they should start HWID banning, it would stop casual cheaters. I read it's not possible to change it entirely but only to spoof it, which is also a lot of trouble.

 

And if you think about it profit-wise, it will only help the game progress. Currently I imagine cheaters are paying monthly for cheats, they don't support the game. While those who pay monthly for the game only lose interest in paying again because cheaters aren't dealt with. 

 

If cheating will be dealt with in a much harsher way, those who bought cheats might actually decide to invest in premium weapons instead, a win/win situation. 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2019 by Faceless

[neophobia 216]

the volunteers are - as far as i know - GMs already. there already is an application process, applications are currently closed, and even then we had at least 1 person who went out of line with their newly acquired power...

[FakeBungo 248]

if they made anyone useful a gm, all the cheaters wouldve gotten banned already. i could ban over half the cheaters in one sitting if i was gm

[WhiskeyTangoFoxX 280]

1 hour ago, largeAPBgamer said:

if they made anyone useful a gm, all the cheaters wouldve gotten banned already. i could ban over half the cheaters in one sitting if i was gm

Making statements like that, I'm glad that you're not a GM

[FakeBungo 248]

1 hour ago, WhiskeyTangoFoxX said:

Making statements like that, I'm glad that you're not a GM

spct defending cheaters, big surprise

[WhiskeyTangoFoxX 280]

21 minutes ago, largeAPBgamer said:

spct defending cheaters, big surprise

Oh is it "SpCt Is ChEaTiNg" time again? Or is it "LO is protecting cheaters"? can we get a different hate meme going? these ones are really starting to get kinda stale.

[MrChan 337]

14 hours ago, largeAPBgamer said:

i could ban over half the cheaters in one sitting if i was gm

The delusion is strong with this one.

[VickyFox 353]

On 7/19/2019 at 3:41 PM, Faceless said:

 

If cheating will be dealt with in a much harsher way, those who bought cheats might actually decide to invest in premium weapons instead, a win/win situation. 

Ok so say that Hardware ID ban did deter cheaters, so they are now going to try and Pay to Win? Is that the kind of culture you want in this community and game?

 

 

What you're suggesting is giving a volunteer a role which is probably as hard as a GMs, You want volunteers to and decide if someone is cheating before banning them potentially forever from APB?

No one wants to ban an innocent player and that is a responsibility not to be taken lightly, A person in game can't just judge if someone is cheating just be observing alone. You need to be able to prove it without doubt.

The staff of Little Orbit are hesitant to ban people permanently, Matt Scott himself doesn't want that kind of approach to APB

 

Personally I think being If someone is going to have the responsibility of banning cheaters, then they should have training on identify and handle harassment claims anyway. Because of the perceived large number of cheating which is incorrect (as this thread demonstrated)

 

 

I'm sorry but no matter what angle I look at this from, It is NOT a responsibility for a volunteer who can quit at anytime and under less obligations to do their job right than paid member of staff!

 

-

This is a bit of a tangent but Volunteers are there as much on their terms as their organisation's.

 

I've worked and volunteered for charities since I left college, and I can tell you that volunteers have to agree to rules, terms and conditions and have training BUT, they are there just as much on their own terms as much as the organisation's terms. Being a volunteer, they can walk away at the end of their active duty that day... on any day.

 

It has happened before where I've been on a voluntary medical duty for a week but on the first day, my post leader makes some racist comments regarding how security is not targeting specific individuals.

I walked out the post and relocated to another medical tent and finished that day's duty there but I got on the next bus home on the same first day and had the rest of the week off.

I mean I could of walked off mid way through that day... I'd be investigated but the risk of firing a unpaid volunteer is not really much of a threat!

So if I get removed from my organisation... cool more time for myself then.

-

 

 

Sometimes there are roles just too big of a risks and demands for a volunteer. If the demand and risk is higher than get a member of staff who is paid to be there with higher training and has a contractual obligation to stay until the job is done.

 

 

On 7/25/2019 at 7:58 AM, largeAPBgamer said:

if they made anyone useful a gm, all the cheaters wouldve gotten banned already. i could ban over half the cheaters in one sitting if i was gm

With a responsibility like this, you CANNOT be gung-ho. 

Even if you wanted to be overzealous in banning people on assumptions, it's going to be a stressful role.

 

You have to bare in mind we're talking about a game which is a source of revenue and income for LittleOrbit's, This is not a MineCraft server.

 

 

The perceived amount of cheating and the threat of cheating is high... that doesn't mean amount of cheating it is actually high.

Just like the perceived threat of terrorism is high... That doesn't mean there is a high risk, Just that the level of fear is high

It's a perception: what you think, what you feel, what you believe. That doesn't mean that's the reality of the situation.

[mattskoii 67]

On 7/19/2019 at 11:41 PM, Faceless said:

Hello,

 

I know there is volunteering to help the community and GM's, but it seems to come with many responsibilities and time consuming manner.

 

I have a suggestion to have a volunteering team solely to monitor cheaters and nothing else, as cheaters seem to be a big issue and downside to the game.

 

I can somewhat understand why volunteering is closed right now, as it probably takes time and practice to train a new volunteer on all the different roles they do, therefore I offer a split department or team to work on cheaters only. 

 

It should give the volunteers and GM's more space and freedom, as the volunteers won't be peering through every single report and complaint and only focus on cheaters. While GM's won't need to train them on all topics, like bug management, harassment, etc.

 

Please consider this.

 

Thank you for reading!

 

 

I personally don't think LO would just simply hand you the right to actually ban players w/out conclusive evidence let alone the power to do so cause really because not even the Volunteer GM's are allowed to do so they're only really there to keep the peace amongst the players  (PS. I'm not defending those who are suspected of cheating), But really what it seems here you're being power hungry by saying you want to help but really LO have a ticket system/ a anti-cheat in place for a reason and as it stands until they need more volunteer's apply then and not ask. 

[FakeBungo 248]

19 hours ago, VickyFox said:

Ok so say that Hardware ID ban did deter cheaters, so they are now going to try and Pay to Win? Is that the kind of culture you want in this community and game?

 

 

What you're suggesting is giving a volunteer a role which is probably as hard as a GMs, You want volunteers to and decide if someone is cheating before banning them potentially forever from APB?

No one wants to ban an innocent player and that is a responsibility not to be taken lightly, A person in game can't just judge if someone is cheating just be observing alone. You need to be able to prove it without doubt.

The staff of Little Orbit are hesitant to ban people permanently, Matt Scott himself doesn't want that kind of approach to APB

 

Personally I think being If someone is going to have the responsibility of banning cheaters, then they should have training on identify and handle harassment claims anyway. Because of the perceived large number of cheating which is incorrect (as this thread demonstrated)

 

 

I'm sorry but no matter what angle I look at this from, It is NOT a responsibility for a volunteer who can quit at anytime and under less obligations to do their job right than paid member of staff!

 

-

This is a bit of a tangent but Volunteers are there as much on their terms as their organisation's.

 

I've worked and volunteered for charities since I left college, and I can tell you that volunteers have to agree to rules, terms and conditions and have training BUT, they are there just as much on their own terms as much as the organisation's terms. Being a volunteer, they can walk away at the end of their active duty that day... on any day.

 

It has happened before where I've been on a voluntary medical duty for a week but on the first day, my post leader makes some racist comments regarding how security is not targeting specific individuals.

I walked out the post and relocated to another medical tent and finished that day's duty there but I got on the next bus home on the same first day and had the rest of the week off.

I mean I could of walked off mid way through that day... I'd be investigated but the risk of firing a unpaid volunteer is not really much of a threat!

So if I get removed from my organisation... cool more time for myself then.

-

 

 

Sometimes there are roles just too big of a risks and demands for a volunteer. If the demand and risk is higher than get a member of staff who is paid to be there with higher training and has a contractual obligation to stay until the job is done.

 

 

With a responsibility like this, you CANNOT be gung-ho. 

Even if you wanted to be overzealous in banning people on assumptions, it's going to be a stressful role.

 

You have to bare in mind we're talking about a game which is a source of revenue and income for LittleOrbit's, This is not a MineCraft server.

 

 

The perceived amount of cheating and the threat of cheating is high... that doesn't mean amount of cheating it is actually high.

Just like the perceived threat of terrorism is high... That doesn't mean there is a high risk, Just that the level of fear is high

It's a perception: what you think, what you feel, what you believe. That doesn't mean that's the reality of the situation.

jsut go to twitch tv and u can watch cheaters everyday on apb... u can even see clips of them showing cheats blatantly. still not banned

[AutumnSan 12]

Then to implement some kind of system that allows GM's/Admins to directly spectate from the player's field of view (Like in some shooter games when you die and spectate your friends and see their corsair movement.) Record 'obvious' cheating, like when the aim snaps, and ban them with presented evidence. Though giving volunteers banning powers seems really wrong and risky, perhaps a detention kind of thing then? Like a one day ban, or until an Admin can review. Cause sometimes 1 or 2 cheaters in a team can go on a rampage and nobody can stop them, the time it takes for an action to actually happen the cheaters will have long moved on and been satisfied with the damage they've done. 

 

There's nothing wrong with paid weapons, it is a part of the game, it helps the game, unlike cheats that only helps the developers of the cheats.

 

In the end of the day, it just seems like the only solution will be to pay admins to chase cheaters, which feels like will never happen. A waste of money really, would be much easier to spend that money on an automatic algorithm to detect and ban. But these things just, almost never fully work, and are always countered by the cheats developers.

 

So instead of giving counter arguments, start bringing solutions. Cause this cheating problem in APB has been since years. 

The time and effort it takes to ban a cheater, and then they make a new account in a few minutes, and the cycle goes on and on. Cheaters are stopped for a few minutes and that's that.

[GhosT 1301]

I stop taking people seriously as soon as they talk about things like "start HWID banning people" or "issue IP bans".

 

Also, allowing APB players to decide who cheats and who doesn't sounds like the biggest mistake one could ever make, and we've had a lot of those.

[Basih 115]

The only cheater I know to be banned was a speedhacker I recorded and sent to support. The /report system isn't even used seeing how I've reported the same cheaters multiple times over 6 months and they still continue like nothing has happened. If anything, a GM needs to be online at all times and also given the ability to suspend cheaters, if not even ban them outright. 

 

I'd say it is better to ban a few too many than none at all.

[Fortune Runner 796]

On 8/7/2019 at 11:05 AM, Basih said:

The only cheater I know to be banned was a speedhacker I recorded and sent to support. The /report system isn't even used seeing how I've reported the same cheaters multiple times over 6 months and they still continue like nothing has happened. If anything, a GM needs to be online at all times and also given the ability to suspend cheaters, if not even ban them outright. 

 

I'd say it is better to ban a few too many than none at all.

so you want to repeat what g1 did with false bans and make that mess all over again?

By far the worst idea I have ever heard.

A lot of plans are in the works for after the engine Upgrade is completed to stop cheaters from being able to do what they do now.

MattScott makes posts about that now and then so I would suggest people read his ideas for anti cheats and other methods for after the Engine Upgrade when he posts them again.

 

I personally do not think it is a good idea to make things much worse by banning innocent people just because someone suspects them for dying.

I mean one reported people for going n5 another reported for being run over....and those false bans matter as well

Do we need to deal with cheaters? of course we do but not at the cost of the population that are innocent , which includes any of you.

 

[Basih 115]

3 hours ago, Fortune Runner said:

so you want to repeat what g1 did with false bans and make that mess all over again?

By far the worst idea I have ever heard.

A lot of plans are in the works for after the engine Upgrade is completed to stop cheaters from being able to do what they do now.

MattScott makes posts about that now and then so I would suggest people read his ideas for anti cheats and other methods for after the Engine Upgrade when he posts them again.

 

I personally do not think it is a good idea to make things much worse by banning innocent people just because someone suspects them for dying.

I mean one reported people for going n5 another reported for being run over....and those false bans matter as well

Do we need to deal with cheaters? of course we do but not at the cost of the population that are innocent , which includes any of you.

 

I'm skeptical about anything related to the "engine upgrade".... A GM presence in the game would solve the issue for now, not in a distant future when the engine upgrade i released. (if it ever will be released). 
If you're banned wrongly you can always get your account back. Though to be honest, maybe GM's should only be able to suspend players for up to 3 months maybe. 

[Fortune Runner 796]

2 minutes ago, Basih said:

I'm skeptical about anything related to the "engine upgrade".... A GM presence in the game would solve the issue for now, not in a distant future when the engine upgrade i released. (if it ever will be released). 
If you're banned wrongly you can always get your account back. Though to be honest, maybe GM's should only be able to suspend players for up to 3 months maybe. 

No Gm can see 100% everything going on , plus they wouldn't be in the match so they would be less likely to notice.

For an effective Gm presence you would need a Gm for each match which is unrealistic.

The Gm's in question would have to be paid Little Orbit employees and there is no funding for that many new people to just monitor games in such a way.

And before you or anyone else suggest "volunteer Gm's" , that would be a foolish thing to give absolute power to regular players rather than proper employees.

 

As for being banned wrongly , it is not ok to be abusive towards innocent people and then expect them to come back.

They wouldn't. No one in their right mind would come back to a toxic situation like that.

You do not cure a patient by killing them.

 

And once again this method you suggested would include you as well.

No one feels good nor benefits from being wrongly banned. NO ONE

[VickyFox 353]

On 8/14/2019 at 1:10 AM, Basih said:

If you're banned wrongly you can always get your account back. Though to be honest, maybe GM's should only be able to suspend players for up to 3 months maybe. 

Actually no, there is no guarantee that the contents of the account would be salvageable after ban. I'm not sure how LittleOrbit handle it but it could be done in waves Quarterly, Annually or after a set time period after the ban but I strongly suspect that in game content of the account (possibly including the characters) would be deleted.

 

I can't imagine APB's databases is holding banned account's every single symbol, bullet, achievement... everything...

It wouldn't unusual that banned accounts content to be purged to make space for other new accounts.

 

 

Now it may be the socialist Brit in me talking here, But I believe people should be treated innocent till proven guilty.

Ban innocent players and you're giving yourself more work load to investigate people that may get banned falsely again.

 

If a GM suspends a player for 3 months that wasn't cheating... That player won't be f-cking coming back to APB!

I mean they could make a new account but why when they've been considered Guilty of cheating wrongly, why would someone want to when they shouldn't have to and all their progress has been suspended.

If that ever happened to me then that'd be someone else pulling the trigger for me.

 

GMs online all the time... in all servers?

Goodluck, I said this earlier in this thread: Volunteers are there equally under their own volition and are under no obligation to give cover. If you want a 24 hour a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year constant presence, then hire people under a contract to monitor servers but that is going to cost a arm an a leg for coverage of multiple servers and multiple districts within those servers.

 

Just hypothetically:

If each server has say 10 instances and a single GM was paid minimum hourly wage (US).

It would cost $1740 a day for just 1 server to be fully covered by GMs. It would cost over 1.2 million dollars a year for Jericho and Citadel, and bare in my there is also PlayStation and Xbox versions of APB.

 

 

The long and short of it is that it would be easier to just put more focus on fixing the game as scheduled and if we can have GMs then they should be focused on giving support and advice to new players and not trying to enforce the rules when Customer Support can do that at their pace.

 

I'm sorry that you feel that this is not good enough for you, but LittleOrbit can't just make a solution to the here and now, for the here and now. It is necessary that they consider the longevity of APB.

 

On 8/14/2019 at 1:19 AM, Fortune Runner said:

You do not cure a patient by killing them.

I agree with Fortune that a harsher treatment wouldn't be more effective, also quantity does not compensate for quality.

You can pump a higher dose of antibiotics into a patient that is ill, but that won't speed up the recovery and would in fact cause some very serious medical complications.

The same way that double the temperature won't cook food in half the time, you'll just burn the outside of the food while inside it remains raw uncooked... if it didn't catch on fire!

Edited August 23, 2019 by VickyFox

[YeOldLegends 51]

On 7/24/2019 at 11:58 PM, largeAPBgamer said:

if they made anyone useful a gm, all the cheaters wouldve gotten banned already. i could ban over half the cheaters in one sitting if i was gm

I am going to be honest. Like 99% of the people you think are cheating are probably not cheating. I am fairly good and I get top frag once in a while in fight club and shipping but I am not delusional and I can admit that there are people that are SOOOOO much better then me. I personally just have realized I'm not the greatest at shooters and I don't invest as much time as many other people do learning the maps and all the small tricks hiding spots and mechanics although I do know quite a few of them. I just would suggest you take some time to study the mechanics of the game and try looking around on the internet for tips and tricks.

[maxin24k 0]

A system that records the damage from pj to pj must be created by momentary contact, I say this because I downloaded any machine gun to burn clothes and they don't die, so more transposers will be captured only as a suggestion! grace for your interest.

[Atomkraftwerk 29]

cheater community,... we need something like fairfight  ,which shows banned players again . Those who dont want it, are like always cheater and cheater defender and other trolls.

I like this game but i wont play it for the next time or maybe til server shut down or never ,who knows,I liked fight club ,but in there its just cheat wars and everyone can see it clearly by the Kill/Death/Score what ever,

[watsoNN 27]

Its an F2P game, you will never be able to eliminate all the cheaters no matter what anti-cheat is in place. Obviously it would be nicer for the blatants to get banned instantly but thats not going to change anytime soon. I think they should IP ban serial hackers to stop them re rolling and hacking again. But hey, thats just me.

[Pufty 113]

On 7/25/2019 at 9:58 AM, largeAPBgamer said:

if they made anyone useful a gm, all the cheaters wouldve gotten banned already. i could ban over half the cheaters in one sitting if i was gm

 

On 7/25/2019 at 12:59 PM, largeAPBgamer said:

spct defending cheaters, big surprise

 

Please tell me this is bait. How can you be this confident in your statements? I mean, it's funny to read, but it's troubling to realize that a person like you exists...

It's a delicate subject that requires at least two of your brain cells. Judging by your reply to Whiskey, you already misfired a statement completely.
First shot you take, you miss completely and you expect to be 'useful' GM?

[Dead_Game 73]

even though the game is dead , cheaters still get defended and that is apb reloaded.