Revert the CSG.

[WorldDominator 61]

I'm really unhappy with the changes made to the shotguns especially the CSG. The new pellet system that aimed to be more forgiving is undermining the skill needed to land fullshots by shotgun experts which was intended to give less experienced players an "Edge" of landing a Fullshot even if they are not accurate enough to do so and even now this is not even how the CSG works now either.

I believe that this change only happened because of how alot of inexperienced players cried about not being able to land shots on the enemy and blamed the weapon for it when it was perfectly fine for experienced ones.

 

I believe the CSG was just in the right and perfect position, after years of struggling to fix it's "Ghost Shots", It's Damage was too high when it came out at 800 hitpoints, then it got nerfed to 650 and that was the worse CSG nerf that ever happened, then everything was fixed but the damage was set at 600 which was surprisingly fine since the gun still had its firerate and range and easily 2 shotted enemies, then buffed again to 650 hitpoints which I have no complaints about whatsoever. The main edge of the CSG was it's range, having 20 meters of effective range was it's strongest point and had its own gameplay advantages to create unique maneuvers, While the JG had much higher damage with lower range than the CSG, this offered a unique taste to each weapon, each having its own scenarios to shine. After this change, both weapons sit at the same Range of 10 meters which makes the JG a far more better pick than the CSG for a significantly increased damage and an Increased chance of landing more pellets because of its wide spread at such range, without the necessity of perfect accuracy.

 

Even though the CSG-PR1 offers Improved Rifling 3 to increase the range to 17 meters, it's still not worth sacrificing because the extra range is nearly not felt due to the loss of more pellets as the range increases and because the increased reload speed of the CSG-RT1 variant, which is totally needed in close quarters encounters, and for overall i believe this change to shotguns was totally unnecessary to be honest for the reasons I stated above.

Main Points:

1. Undermining the skill needed to use Shotguns and even though that was the intention, the gun is now far worse for both the inexperienced players and the experienced ones.

2. JG Shotgun now has an edge over the CSG due to the ability of being modified by increasing its range, fastening its reload speed, fastening its equip time, yet has the same base range (7.5m is basically the same as 10m), significantly more damage, superior firerate intervals.

 

3. OCA and PMG which are still superior to the CSG in its own range can still be used to snipe enemies up to 40 or 50 meters.

 

4. It's impossible to win a 1v1 duel using no corners against an experienced player who plays SMGs like OCA, PMG, and ofcourse the JG shotgun; which all can be further modified, in the range of 10 meters which the is the same extent of the CSG's max range and it should have been able to rival these weapons and that was not the case before the last nerf. 

 

All in all the CSG's place right now in the game is the garbage can, so do us all a favour and revert it already, it not should be that hard to do.

 

Edit : forgot to mention how perfect the previous damage was against kevlar 3 enemies who have (1300 hp points). If you add up the previous 650 damage of 2 fullshots would make the exact 1300 damage needed to take down that specific enemy and that was rewarding. 

Edited February 20, 2019 by WorldDominator

[vsb 6171]

17 minutes ago, WorldDominator said:

OCA and PMG which are still superior to the CSG in its own range can still be used to snipe enemies up to 40 or 50 meters.

i agree with you that pump shotguns (aside from the strife) are in a bad spot, but unless it’s a whisper/kris (and good luck using the extra range with rng cannon smgs) the oca and pmg do so little damage at 50m you might as well be using ltl

[Koleen23 8]

You've got a point there. This is my favourite gun in this game but there is kinda no situation where this gun had an advantage over other weapons. Just camp the corner and pray for no microlag. If you miss one shot you're dead, or if you are not 100% accurate you are dead.

[CookiePuss 5378]

Tas20 Stock (IR3, Tagger) still works well. 

JG still wokrs well too. 

Both are pretty solid on defense. 

 

Not saying I wouldn't change anything, but shotguns imo became more niche, and that has been quite interesting. 

[Alani 475]

Just make shotguns realistic.

 

Allow them to hit targets up to 60 meters lmao

[Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 269]

1 hour ago, WorldDominator said:

I believe that this change only happened because of how alot of inexperienced players cried about not being able to land shots on the enemy

if I recall correctly, the pellet change was done to combat the at times poor connectivity/latency of the servers. it was something along those lines. someone confirm please

[Lign 361]

JG is currently superior cqc in the game. Basically it's unkillable if you use corners and its firerate(0.73) can outplay oca in open place if you strafe around to mess the tracking of your opponent. CSG feels bad and not skill rewarded due to slow firerate(0.77). It just forces you to use corners and makes you feeling in dangerous if you have to play openly in some situations. I do believe that making equal ttk for both shotguns will fix it and I think 0.74-0.75 gonna be the best for them

[WorldDominator 61]

On 2/20/2019 at 6:18 PM, BXNNXD said:

the oca and pmg do so little damage at 50m you might as well be using ltl

They would still land enough bullets to take down a 30+ tagged enemy easily. 

Edited February 26, 2019 by WorldDominator

[neophobia 216]

2 hours ago, Alani said:

Just make shotguns realistic.

 

Allow them to hit targets up to 60 meters lmao

just make all weapons realistic

 

die after one hit unless it doesnt hit vital organs

 

but start bleeding, writhing in pain on the ground

 

introduce headshots

[_chain 176]

21 minutes ago, neophobia said:

just make all weapons realistic

 

die after one hit unless it doesnt hit vital organs

 

but start bleeding, writhing in pain on the ground

 

introduce headshots

Weapon jamming plzzzz

 

Now seriously though. Bloom is the cancer of shooting games and I love shitposting about how awful it is for competitive gaming, but recoil patterns wouldn't work in this game either, it could lead to slower gameplay.  and it is easy to hit enemies in the current state of the game anyway.  It could be added, but making it unaffected by movement (kinda what Apex Legends has built in). 

 

about the shotguns... ehhhhg, since i don't spend money i mostly use the jg or the nfas, and you don't need much else for cqc. 

Edited February 20, 2019 by _chain

[Parthian 344]

5 hours ago, BXNNXD said:

the oca and pmg do so little damage at 50m you might as well be using ltl

[Edit: Second link snipped due to use of Racial Slurs on the thumbnail. -Lucina]

[Acornie 490]

I chose the MP3 CSG from the retail pack, since Reloaded Productions decided to slap on IR3 knowing full well that there was no real downside to that mod on a shotty, I guess I'm just outta luck, eh.

[vsb 6171]

2 hours ago, Amberwind said:

 

a min stk at maybe 30m????

 

2 hours ago, Amberwind said:

 

i agree this is a great example of the pmg doing fuck all at 50m

 

that thumbnail tho lmao

 

[Edit: Quoted link snipped  -Lucina]

[Parthian 344]

2 hours ago, BXNNXD said:

a min stk at maybe 30m????

 

i agree this is a great example of the pmg doing fuck all at 50m

 

that thumbnail tho lmao

 

[Edit: Quoted link snipped  -Lucina]

this is why we need playtime or threat segregations on the forums

 

just so that they dont listen to people like u

2 hours ago, Acornie said:

I chose the MP3 CSG from the retail pack, since Reloaded Productions decided to slap on IR3 knowing full well that there was no real downside to that mod on a shotty, I guess I'm just outta luck, eh.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

There is no point in using any shotgun ever unless it has an improved rifling on it. There is literally no downside to it.

[vsb 6171]

2 minutes ago, Amberwind said:

this is why we need playtime or threat segregations on the forums

dethreating to green might actually be worth it so i dont have to see dumbass forum posts

[MartisLTU 265]

I think it would be better if "LO" rebalance weapons after engine update ofc. I hate when ppl. abuse ez/op weapons and it happens all the time in APB...

 

What if we would get little more real life in APB ? You know like in those fast TTK games , no matter what weapon you have smg, rife or shotgun ... wins one who have better aim and reaction (only weapon range is important for performance). Just add new Hitbox so it would work ofc...

 

[WorldDominator 61]

44 minutes ago, MartisLTU said:

I think it would be better if "LO" rebalance weapons after engine update ofc. I hate when ppl. abuse ez/op weapons and it happens all the time in APB...

 

What if we would get little more real life in APB ? You know like in those fast TTK games , no matter what weapon you have smg, rife or shotgun ... wins one who have better aim and reaction (only weapon range is important for performance). Just add new Hitbox so it would work ofc...

 

I don't think that i want to wait till "LO" start testing new weapon balancing, they can try doing that at whatever the time they want to even if it was 2 years from now, but they should revert the previously balanced weapons that they destroyed, not to leave players getting frustrated with what they did and simply endure with it with no specific dates or information and i think they have the old data and can revert whatever the weapon they want in just 1 night if they wanted to.

But when did they ever have fast reactions about fixing what they broke, take a look at the fricking car radar modification, like how did they even manage to break that mod and even when they stated that they fixed it they never said it was fixed 100%, instead they said that "they increased the reliability of the car radar tower???". 

That was a big joke, like are they actually stating that they can't fix it back the way it was?  

I don't know about you, but I'd never trust them in any upcoming weapon balance.

Edited February 21, 2019 by WorldDominator

[CookiePuss 5378]

5 hours ago, Amberwind said:

[Edit: Second link snipped due to use of Racial Slurs on the thumbnail. -Lucina]

Is that what you think 50m looks like?

[WorldDominator 61]

3 hours ago, Amberwind said:

this is why we need playtime or threat segregations on the forums

 

just so that they dont listen to people like u

Totally agree with you, Now that's what I call brilliance.

[Noob_Guardian 417]

11 hours ago, Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 said:

if I recall correctly, the pellet change was done to combat the at times poor connectivity/latency of the servers. it was something along those lines. someone confirm please

nope, pellot change was due to make it not seem ptw because it was too consistent at what it did with a consistent pellet spread which the f2p varient didnt have.

 

imo CSG would be fine with a 15/16m (with IR) range but not 20.

Edited February 21, 2019 by Noob_Guardian

[Parthian 344]

7 hours ago, CookiePuss said:

Is that what you think 50m looks like?

nah but if you would look at the other video i posted you would realize the capabilities of a pmg on range

[WorldDominator 61]

13 hours ago, Noob_Guardian said:

nope, pellot change was due to make it not seem ptw because it was too consistent at what it did with a consistent pellet spread which the f2p varient didnt have.

 

imo CSG would be fine with a 15/16m (with IR) range but not 20.

First of all, if you didn't know the CSG was originally rebalanced because people had issues 2 shotting enemies and because players claimed the shotguns were inconsistent, so they got over buffed and then over nerfed (JG is fine though) and stayed that way ever since with no regards to how weak CSG felt against other CQC weapons that it had been able to rival in the past. 

Secondly the CSG-PR1 (with IR3) variant at this moment has mathematically 17 meters of range, yet it if you're able to consistently 2 shot enemies at this considerably low range for the old CSG, well good luck achieving that. 

 

I'd guess that you haven't been playing the CSG alot and if you did, I'd only guess that you never used it against high tier players who play other shotguns and SMGs that easily outclass the CSG right now. Before the last nerf I'd easily 2 shot enemies up to 35 meters away and that happened if and only if I perfectly aimed my shots and it getting such kills was saitisfying considering if the enemy played SMGs like OCA whisper or PMG and that they were good I'd normally be tagged at least 85 when i go for these risky fights at such range knowing that I'd might win only if i aimed good, now literally every meta SMG and shotgun can shit on the CSG with no counter play and I'll just leave this here in case you'd think that I'm bullshiting, out of my 110k kills on my main character I'd say i have from 40-50k CSG kills if not more, so I most likely know what im talking about here more than you do. 

Edited February 21, 2019 by WorldDominator

[Noob_Guardian 417]

9 hours ago, WorldDominator said:

First of all, if you didn't know the CSG was originally rebalanced because people had issues 2 shotting enemies and because players claimed the shotguns were inconsistent, so they got over buffed and then over nerfed (JG is fine though) and stayed that way ever since with no regards to how weak CSG felt against other CQC weapons that it had been able to rival in the past. 

Secondly the CSG-PR1 (with IR3) variant at this moment has mathematically 17 meters of range, yet it if you're able to consistently 2 shot enemies at this considerably low range for the old CSG, well good luck achieving that. 

 

I'd guess that you haven't been playing the CSG alot and if you did, I'd only guess that you never used it against high tier players who play other shotguns and SMGs that easily outclass the CSG right now. Before the last nerf I'd easily 2 shot enemies up to 35 meters away and that happened if and only if I perfectly aimed my shots and it getting such kills was saitisfying considering if the enemy played SMGs like OCA whisper or PMG and that they were good I'd normally be tagged at least 85 when i go for these risky fights at such range knowing that I'd might win only if i aimed good, now literally every meta SMG and shotgun can shit on the CSG with no counter play and I'll just leave this here in case you'd think that I'm bullshiting, out of my 110k kills on my main character I'd say i have from 40-50k CSG kills if not more, so I most likely know what im talking about here more than you do.  

So you went, used a very strong weapon that was better than the jg (f2p version) and in every regard for years borderline op, then it got its pellets reworked so instead of the circle shot it was randomized, was okay-ish, then it got overbuffed, then got nerfed.

 

The spread randomization rework wasn't because of inconsistency, nomatter how much you want to claim it, though they likely wanted to make it seem that way. The CSG was extremely consistent with its previous spread before spread changes. It was still strong after but not as op afterwords, then the weapon/shotgun rework (they did several of which so its hard to keep track of what all happened in each so ill go with the most recent) made all of the shotguns broke op and that got fixed (as you said you were killing people at 35m away with csg). Do I feel the CSG may be overnerfed atm? Sure, but that doesn't mean that if it can hit 17m that it should easily achieve an easy 2 hit 17m kill. Its currently built towards the 10m niche, rather than the max 17m. If they make it ~4 hits with 3/4 of the pellets hitting each time to kill with IR at 17m i'd consider it balanced. Shotguns easily dominated cqc for a long time due to corner popping with no real counterplay, I hope to never see the days where that returns.

 

The most recent rework was aimed to make most shotguns into CQC ~sub 10m powerhouses while making it so the smgs had the niche at 15-30m while thats not necessarily true atm, the CSG (PR1) has a strange niche now for its 10-17m range with its .77ttk.

 

Btw, i have ~105k kills with my main character spread across every role, giving me R15 in every primary role except rifleman which is max. So when I say that I might know a thing about game balance, trust me when i say i know what im talking about.

 

I havn't touched the CSG in a while honestly, last i tested it was before i took a break during cancerous shotgun meta, so i'd likely have to playtest it for a little again. But i'll be honest, strife is my favorite shotgun.

Edited February 22, 2019 by Noob_Guardian

[Mitne 724]

On 2/20/2019 at 5:38 PM, Alani said:

Just make shotguns realistic.

 

Allow them to hit targets up to 60 meters lmao

 

Reminds me of CoD or Battlefield 3 where attaching scope to shotgun made it shot further.

[WorldDominator 61]

8 hours ago, Noob_Guardian said:

So you went, used a very strong weapon that was better than the jg (f2p version) and in every regard for years borderline op

First of all the csg isn't the (p2w version) of the JG and vice versa, each one of them is a completely different weapon which has different gameplay and better than the other in different situations. 

JG has been always dominant in closer range situations due to its slightly increased firerate, significantly increased damage, its forgiving accuracy per damage rate to that of the CSG's, and the ability to be modified. 

The CSG has been always better at range when it had range which isn't its current situation now, slightly slower firerate before LO took over and made a noticeable different in firerates between the CSG and JG, it always did alot of damage only and only when the person using aimed well at the enemy and was accurate otherwise it doesn't deal that much of damage.

 

The CSG has become a degenerate version of the JG which has significantly less firerate, significantly less damage, non modifiable, has the same range of the JG and is now a no pick versus good players as they all would take the JG over it. When i did some testing i figured out somewhat of an animation bug when you try to shoot at the right intervals as fast as you can, what happens is that you see your character shooting and if you have particles on you'll see pellets on the wall or whatever you are shooting at, yet i when looked my magazine ammo it didn't count as a shot, so i was basically seeing myself shoot while infact i was just standing still to other players. That animation bug happens more frequently than you think for those who try to master the timing of the new firerate, sometimes during gameplay someone wouldn't notice and think it was just a random ghost shot, that bug never existed before.

 

And that's all what I'm going to reply you at since the first paragraph you wrote you seemed like you no clue about what you are talking about calling the JG a "f2p version" of the CSG which was borderline op. I'd only think that G1 never made a purchasable version from contacts all these years to force players who were interested to pay money for it, it should have been already an ingame item rather than an armas market item.

Talking of op btw, wouldn't you consider your favourite 1 shot 85 damage shotgun "strife" which can basically used to quick switch players at relatively close distances as a op?

it has more insanely more damage and range than both shotguns JG and CSG. 

 

All in all, the CSG was not just nerfed and was placed in the garbage can as a weak degenerate weapon, but also as a broken one.