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Kewlin

Kewlin's Big Shotgun Thread

Do you think shotguns need to be fixed?  

65 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you think shotguns need to be fixed?

    • Yes, and Kewlin’s ideas seem like a good start.
      27
    • Yes, but I just want the CSG-20, JG-840, NFAS-12, and Ogre reverted.
      4
    • Yes, but I want all shotguns reverted.
      14
    • Yes, but not in any of the ways mentioned above.
      4
    • No, shotguns are fine as they are.
      16


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*EDIT July 23rd 2019* This post was made before the NFAS was extremely meta, and as such my statements on the NFAS are questionable, and probably wrong. Please take them with a grain of salt.

Warning: If you have not noticed yet, this post is fucking long. If you have an issue with long posts, I suggest you just take the poll and leave it there: there is no TL;DR, and the information in this thread cannot necessarily be easily explained in fewer words; there are however pretty (read: fugly) graphs.

 

Forward:

I want to “start” by saying that I appreciate that LO wants to try and balance APB, and to be fair I think a lot of LO’s buffs to different guns were good, and their IR3 concept could have been good with some tweaking. I think overall LO was just a little too optimistic, and certainly not quite careful enough. As I’m sure everyone’s aware, APB is a complex game with a lot of guns and mods, and a lot of factors, and as such when it comes to weapon balance everyone has major disagreements. I could bring up many, many examples of disagreements among knowledgeable vets, but suffice to say I’ve gotten into and witnessed many long arguments with a lot of smart people who know APB pretty damned well, and what I’ve come to realize is that nobody can entirely understand APB’s balance because there’s so many perspectives you can come from.

 

That being said, what’s not really up to debate is that about half of the shotguns in APB are laying in shambles right now after the last balance changes. I get that something had to be done because changes had gone live that made many shotguns overpowered, but the current versions of the JG-840, CSG-20, NFAS-12, and Ogre in particular feel like they are the result of bad knee-jerk reactions, and that needs to be fixed.

 

This post is my proposition on how to fix the issues with shotguns created in the last few balance patches. I’m sure there are many perspectives on how shotguns could be fixed, but these changes are how I see it. Please though, if anyone from Little Orbit is reading this, if you take nothing away from this thread beside one sentence, let it be this:

 

If you are not willing to go through a process to fix shotguns of a similar or greater scale than I describe in this thread in the near future, then please, please revert the CSG-20, JG-840, NFAS-12, and NFAS-12 ‘True Ogre’ to how they were before you changed them.

 

I have had many people disagree with me on many things in APB, but I don’t believe I’ve seen virtually anyone disagree that those 4 shotguns should be reverted if nothing else is going to be done to them in the near future.

 

Notes on Terminology and Functionality:

When I use the term "assist" in this post I will be referring to teamwork kills in general, or in other words both assists in the traditional and as finishing kills.

 

AV in APB refers to guns that have good hard damage, I.E. they’re effective against vehicles, or sometimes is used to refer to how good a gun is at doing hard damage.

 

I will be using the term STK to refer to more than just min-STK, E.G. I may talk about achieving 3-STK with the CSG-20 at extended ranges or when missing some pellets, though the CSG-20’s min-STK is 2.

 

For those who don’t know, the way the new shotguns damage curves work is every shotgun has a variable that I’ll refer to as its per ray damage scale, which is a value of 1 or lower that modifies pellet damage depending on how many pellets land in a shot. Basically, each pellet’s damage is multiplied by the per ray damage scale raised to a power equal to the number of pellets landed before that pellet. E.G., if we say the gun’s 1st pellet damage is D, and its per ray damage scale is S, then the 1st shot will deal D*S⁰, (since any number raised to the 0th power is 1 that’s just D,) the 2nd shot will deal D*S¹, the 3rd will deal D*S², etc.. Hopefully this is clear, but I don’t blame anyone if they don’t totally understand it. All anyone reading really needs to know is that LO raised the initial damage of shotguns, but also made each subsequent pellet that lands deal less damage than the previous.

 

I will at many points be talking about the number of pellets required to land to reach a certain STK in this thread; what I am referring to when I talk about this is the number of pellets that need to land in each shot against another player at full health in order to kill that player in that number of shots, assuming each shot lands the same number of pellets. E.G. in order to achieve a 2-STK the pre-LO CSG required 17 pellets in each shot to land from 0m to 21m, 18 pellets at 22m, 19 at 23m, and so on, or to 3-shot 11 pellets from 0m to 20m, 12 at 21m, etc.. When I refer to this fact I am aware that shotguns have spread, lots of it in most cases, and likely will not be capable of landing the number of pellets required to reach a certain STK at extended ranges, but I am simply referring to the technical numbers. That said, I urge you to keep the realistic limitations of shotgun spread in mind when looking at these numbers.

 

JG-840:

 

 


Overall, I feel like the JG-840 is in a better place balance-wise than the CSG-20 at the moment, but that doesn’t mean it’s good, in fact it’s awful. LO made the mistake of thinking its range needed a huge nerf after they buffed it when its primary issue was that they made its damage curve far too forgiving.

 

Thus, the first thing I’d do to the JG-840 is up its range. As it is, one of the JG-840’s main roles is being the entry shotgun for free to play players, and in this way the gun must be capable of being used effectively, if not optimally, without any mods, similar to the STAR. However currently the gun is entirely reliant on IR3 to be even remotely effective, which I find unacceptable, especially since it sounds like there are future plans to add a downside to IR at some point in the future.

 

Second, if the gun still needs tuning after its range is figured out, I’d tweak its refire time, as I feel like the gun ending up with a lower RoF at the end of a string of patches that were supposed to buff underpowered guns and make shotguns more usable is rather silly and counter-intuitive.

 

Range:

I think the JG-840’s range can pretty safely be upped at least a little, since nobody in the past had ever complained about the gun having too much range. I’d start by upping the gun’s dropoff to 15-25m, which is only a little better than it currently is with IR3. I don’t think 15m before it starts to dropoff will be broken with an additional 7m from IR3, since the gun spreads so much that it would be unreliable at best (and lets not forget you only need 1 less pellet per shot to 2-shot than before LO touched it.)

 

If, however, 15-25m turns out to be too good, bring it down to 10-20m or 10-15m. I do not, however, think 15-25m will be OP, in fact you could probably fully revert the gun’s range to 20-30m, but I’m on the fence as to whether or not that’s a good idea.

 

Ultimately, in my opinion, it barely matters what the JG-840’s range is as long as its dropoff begins at or after 15m, as it has so much spread it will never be very effective past that range.

 

Rate of Fire:

While a RoF increase to the JG-840 isn’t totally necessary, I personally think it would be highly preferable, and if the gun needs “a little more buff” increasing it’s fire-rate is a lot safer than increasing its damage (and decreasing spread makes it into a CSG.) I’d start by going to a fire interval of 0.70s, (it’s currently 0.73s,) and if that’s too fast split the difference at 0.715s. Alternatively, if it still could use some more buffing revert it fully to 0.68s.

 

If it’s still not quite good enough, fully revert its dropoff ranges to 20-30m if you haven’t already, but I think the gun should be good at this point.

 

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CSG-20:

 

 


All in all, the CSG-20 is probably the most difficult of the shotguns to fix. LO’s initial test versions were definitely too powerful at range, but they went about fixing that in the wrong way. The CSG-20 is supposed to be the ranged pump shotgun that can harass up to, and sometimes past 20m, and that’s been entirely taken from it. As it is, the CSG-20 is virtually worthless, and it should be fixed to be able to fill its old role again. (Side note: I’m not sure why when designers over-buff something they rarely just pull-back on the buff, but instead decide to nerf some other aspect: I find that this method can cause huge issues.)

 

Thus, the most important thing to fixing the CSG-20 is reverting its dropoff back to 20-40m. As it is, at 10-20m, the CSG-20 just. . . has no range. Above all else, above everything else in this thread, please revert the CSG-20’s dropoff back to 20-40m, even if LO just totally reverts the CSG-20 back to before LO changed it it would be far better than it is now due to its range being reverted.

 

Second, I have a strong suspicion the gun will be OP after reverting its range, but do not fret! The CSG simply has an unnecessarily pronounced per ray damage scale, and probably too little spread. If the gun turns out to be OP with just reverted range, I personally suggest reverting the spread back to 85cm at 10m (it’s currently buffed to 75cm; I presume this is a radius and not a diameter but I haven’t actually tested,) and then bring its damage to more of a middle ground between its new and old damage.

 

At this point, after changing its damage and/or spread, it may or may not be prudent to experiment with bringing its fire interval back closer to 0.70s, starting with testing 0.73s going from there (it’s currently 0.77s and was 0.68s.)

 

Really though, if nothing else, revert the CSG-20 entirely, as it’s currently completely awful and incapable of filling its old intended role as a longer ranged shotgun.

Range:

This is simple, as I said above, just revert the gun’s dropoff to 20-40m (currently 10-20m.) This isn’t even especially far for a close-ranged gun to be honest; remember that the OCA has a 30-50m dropoff, and the OSCAR’s range is even further than that with nearly the same TTK as the CSG-20 currently has.

Damage & Spread:

Basically, in my spreadsheets I found that the new damage could potentially be too powerful at range if its ranges were reverted, so I believe that reverting the spread and finding more of a middle ground for the damage, while still keeping it at its current reduced pellets to 2-shot, would be far more healthy. If it feels better, it might make more sense to just change the damage and keep the buffed spread. In specific, I suggest a per ray damage scale of 0.98 (currently 0.97) and a 1st pellet damage of 37 (currently 40.)

 

Anyway, with this damage change the gun would still pack more of a punch at close range than before LO touched it, but should be balanced at longer ranges.

Rate of Fire:

I’m not exactly opposed to the current RoF, since the CSG-20 is supposed to be more ranged than, say, the JG-840, however a nerf is a nerf, and the CSG-20 received a significant 0.09s nerf to its fire interval in the changes LO made, which I find stings just a tad given that the initial goal of the shotgun changes was to buff them. So if there was some spare wiggle room in balancing, I’d definitely appreciate at least a partial revert to RoF. Let’s not forget that even if the CSG-20 is somewhat long-ranged for a shotgun, it’s still intended for short range, and as such needs a competitive TTK.

 

If LO doesn’t feel comfortable with a full-revert to RoF, I’d suggest bringing its fire interval down to 0.73s or 0.70s, at least at first (it’s currently 0.77s.)

 

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NFAS-12 & Variants:

 

 


Let’s face it, the NFAS-12 is worse in virtually every situation than the OCA-EW 626, the DOW becomes worse than the OSCAR if you don’t hit min-STK, (and quite honestly you often don’t get min-STK, and in fact I’d honestly consider the RFP-9 a better primary than the DOW,) and the Ogre has never really been good at anything beside lagging the game and annoying people in FC. So with that all out of the way, let’s talk about buffing these 3 guns.

 

First thing’s first, I’d revert the range of the guns so that they all have the same dropoff of 20-30m that they used to have (they’re currently 10-20m on the NFAS-12 and Ogre, and 20-30m on the DOW.) I have no clue why the range on these guns was nearly halved, and I don’t see this as even remotely controversial as I’ve never heard of someone complaining that the NFAS-12 or Ogre had too much range.

 

Second, all three versions of the NFAS feel unreliable. The NFAS-12 feels extremely RNG based, often requiring an entire magazine to get a kill despite being 3-STK. The DOW doesn’t feel much more reliable despite being semi-auto and having slightly tighter spread. Lastly, the Ogre almost only received nerfs, with the pre ray damage scale being so extreme that it actually does slightly less damage by the time you land enough pellets to hit its 3 STK sweet spot, and the gun honestly never felt reliable to begin with.

 

Yes, I am aware that the DOW has always been functionally different in several ways than the NFAS-12 in several ways, but seeing as they’re intentionally very similar, and face similar problems, I’m tackling them close together.

 

All 3 Guns:

Range:

This is pretty simple. Nobody ever thought the NFAS-12 or Ogre had too much range, and the both guns quite simply require IR3 to be even remotely viable now, so just revert their range dropoff to 20-30m. This also has the side-effect of giving all three guns to the same range, which I see as a plus from a simplicity point of view (though the DOW will still be better at range due to having less spread.)

 

If 20-30m is too OP for the NFAS-12 or Ogre, try 15-20m I guess, but I don’t see how that could happen with the spread the guns have.

 

Damage:

The issue with the reliability of these guns as far as I’m aware is that as STK rises the damage margin between STKs decreases, which is why the NFAS has always felt less reliable than 2-shot shotguns: essentially the NFAS has less potential for overdamage. This is where per ray damage scale comes in, and why this can now be solved.

 

As with most shotguns, the NFAS-12 and DOW (but not the Ogre) had their pellets per shot required to reach min-STK decreased by one. Given that these guns are unreliable though, still often requiring 5 or more shots to get a kill, this doesn’t seem like quite enough to me. (Note that as I stated above the Ogre requires the same number of pellets to kill as before LO made their shotgun changes.)

 

I suggest these three guns have their pellets per shots required to reach min-STK reduced by 2 from their pre-LO damage, for a total of 7 out of 12 pellets required per shot (notably the same as the CSG currently requires.) I think the best numbers to make this happen would be a 1st pellet damage of 60 and a per ray damage scale of 0.93, as this also has the effect of bringing the total damage back up to nearly what it used to be, thus making it much closer to how it used to be at AV.

 

If this damage happens to be overpowered on any of the three guns in particular, I suggest instead using a damage setup of 46 first pellet damage and a per ray damage scale of 0.98 to increase AV damage from its current state and give a little more wiggle room for assists and the like while keeping the same pellets as are currently required to reach min STK.

 

DOW ‘Thumper’:

First, I just want to state that I’m aware lots of people will believe, and perhaps rightly, that my first suggestion for a damage buff would make the DOW OP, and I’m not going to say that’s necessarily wrong, but I do however think it’s worth a try, and also mentioned a fall-back suggested damage for any NFAS variant if my initial suggestion is OP. Plus, if all else fails, the DOW’s current damage would do fine.

 

Mechanical Choke:

Now to get onto the fun part. I think everybody after basically the first day of using the DOW ‘Thumper’ realizes that they’re probably better off basically never using MM on the gun due to this mod. Sure, it’s a fun concept, but the difference in spread simply isn’t substantial, and the reduced RoF almost certainly is. For a little while I tried playing around with going into MM for my 3rd or 4th shot, but found that even though in theory there’s no downside to using it to finish off an opponent, in reality you never know how many shots you need to kill someone, and thus I stopped using MM with the Thumper at all.

 

I suggest that after the suggested damage changes to the DOW go live the spread reduction while in MM with this mod be changed to -50%, (from the current -35%,) and if that’s too powerful a balance between the two numbers be found (cut it in half first at -42% and then go from there.)

 

Ogre:

This is almost more of a side-note than anything, but it’s a relatively accepted belief that the Ogre simply fires too many rays too quickly and is extremely taxing on the server. It would seem that the Ogre shoots so many rays that it can actually single-handedly cause not only client-side lag, but actually cause hit registry to not work as well server-side. This is hard to prove, of course, but is believed by a large portion of the community, and I believe not without at least some merit.

 

With this in mind, I highly suggest that if any of the changes I suggested above make the Ogre OP, LO considers reducing the Ogre’s RoF instead of pulling back the buffs I suggested. Normally I wouldn’t suggest countering an over-buff by nerfing another aspect of the gun, but calling for 60 ray traces a second seems to simply be too much for APB, and pulling it closer toward the NFAS-12’s ~41 a second I believe could be beneficial to APB.

 

That all being said, I only suggest any of this if the Ogre happens to become overpowered.

 

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Shredder:

 

 


The Shredder is basically fine as-is, but its buff was. . . complicated? To put it simply, the gun now has 2m less range of 8 and 9 pellets per shot to 3-STK than the old Shredder, but it’s slightly more forgiving at longer ranges. Overall, it received a buff, and probably really doesn’t need any further changes. That being said, the gun is worse at AV than it used to be due to dealing less maximum damage. With that in mind, I’d personally suggest buffing its damage to a sort of middle ground damage where it had a per ray damage scale of 0.93 (currently 0.9) and a 1st pellet damage of 63, (currently 65,) this way it has more overdamage for AV, but keeps the range buff of the new damage.


If LO wanted to buff the gun more, which I don’t really think is necessary, I’d suggest buffing its accuracy at 10m (not spread, accuracy) from 12cm to 10cm or so. This would make the gun feel a slightly less RNG than it currently does, especially when fired from the hip.

 

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SG-21 (“Strife”):

 

 


The SG-21 is actually probably in the best place of any shotgun, however the one thing that miffs me a little is that it has less total damage than it used to, which, given that being extremely excessive is the point of the SG-21, is a little weird.

 

This is, however, easy to fix. Changing the per ray damage scale to 0.982 (currently 0.979) and its first pellet damage to 54 (currently 55) brings up the maximum damage to 943 (it used to be 945) without really affecting much of anything beside its AV and assisting abilities. As you can see below, after these changes the SG-21 would do practically the same damage as it already does at range, but be able to do a full 943 damage to vehicles close up basically like it used to.

 

I know this might seem pedantic, but I feel this would make the SG-21 absolutely perfect.

 

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Showstopper & Variant:

 

 


I’m not gonna’ lie, I haven’t really used this gun much, however, it seems to be in a pretty good place, so I’m not really going to worry about getting a Thunder and doing research on the two variants of the Showstopper.

 

That being said, though I’m not going to suggest any changes, I thought it would still be useful to some people if I put its damage stats in this post.

 

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Questions, comments, flames?

 

 

 

P.S. LO, please revert the NCR-762 to its state before the changes made around June of 2015, with the exception of the range buff. Oh, and revert the M-1922’s recoil to how it was before the October 2015 patch. These were both bad “buffs” that ruined the guns.

 

P.P.S. My brother wanted me to include this.

 

P.S.Sh. Thanks for annoying encouraging me to finish this thread Ketog.

Edited by Kewlin
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I didn’t read the text, but I’m for your idea. Simply because you put more effort into this one post, than I have put into all my forum post put together. Both forums.

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I completely agree with mosty of your suggestions except two :

 

The DOW and the OGRE one

 

DOW

 

Let's start with DOW , right now i think DOW is at a really good spot , and like you said buffing it the slightest would make it overpowered , while it's true that the guns feels similar to an NFAS but in an semi auto format , the way the gun behaves is completely different than the NFAS's due to it's nature ,  while DOW having 60x12 damage (compared to 80x12 for NFAS) might make it look like it needs some love , DOW has a much higher Per Ray Damage Scale and a lower spread , making it much more consistent that the NFAS thus more forgiving , increeasing the damage on DOW would simply make the gun way too much forgiving at higher ranges .

 

As for the choke change , i honestly have no idea how it would be , but 50% seems like a bit much , epscially with 20-30 range like you suggested , that would basically transform the dow into a shredder V2 and make the gun way too versatile .

 

OGRE

 

Now for the ogre , i completely agree with you suggestion of giving it equal damage to the normal NFAS 12  just like it used to be , while the Per Ray Damage Scale was supposed to help for the shotgun consistency , it didn't really affect ogre ,as it got it's damage heavely lowered while it used to be the same as the NFAS 12  , right now NFAS 12 does 80*12 Damage with a Per Ray Damage Scale of 81 , wich puts im in an okayish having high damage that scales down fast by pellet , but on the other side , OGre now only deals 50*12 with a Per Ray Damage Scale of 94 , that sounds okay and great until you realise that ogre has only 10 meters range , low base damage (lowest of all the shotguns in APB) , very high spread and that the only thing supposed to make it strong is the high damage scale . while ogre is supoposed to feel inconsistent at longer ranges , the lack of overdamage that it has now make it a very weak option for close quarters combat abd ogre completely lost it's role of "mower" in CQC .

 

As for your firerate change im completely against it , ogre is supposed to overwhelm you enemy with a rain of bullets lowering it's rate of fire would basically make it a worse NFAS-12 even if it's only by a little .

 

TLDR for ogre ; Put it's damage equal to NFAS 12 like it used to be before , it will give the close range consistency that it needs right now , put the range back to where it used to be before the Per Ray Damage Scale mechanic was added , and don't touch it's firerate ,  all of this will make ogre the gun it used to be .

 

PS: Luna i know you hate spaces before commas              , deal with it .

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1 minute ago, Ketog said:

I completely agree with mosty of your suggestions except two :

 

The DOW and the OGRE one

 

DOW

 

Let's start with DOW , right now i think DOW is at a really good spot , and like you said buffing it the slightest would make it overpowered , while it's true that the guns feels similar to an NFAS but in an semi auto format , the way the gun behaves is completely different than the NFAS's due to it's nature ,  while DOW having 60x12 damage (compared to 80x12 for NFAS) might make it look like it needs some love , DOW has a much higher Per Ray Damage Scale and a lower spread , making it much more consistent that the NFAS thus more forgiving , increeasing the damage on DOW would simply make the gun way too much forgiving at higher ranges .

 

As for the choke change , i honestly have no idea how it would be , but 50% seems like a bit much , epscially with 20-30 range like you suggested , that would basically transform the dow into a shredder V2 and make the gun way too versatile .

 

I really can't agree that the DOW behaves completely differently than the NFAS-12, realistically it's virtually the same gun save a few changes, and I have historically used them virtually the same just fine. (And no, I didn't just look at the 1st pellet damage of both guns and think oh shit, the DOW needs a buff! That would be ridiculous.

 

First, The DOW has a 16% tighter spread than the NFAS-12, which I wouldn't really call much tighter. Sure, it's tighter and certainly helps, but let's not forget that the gun not only has a slightly lower RoF, it's semi-auto which makes it more difficult to reach this RoF.

 

Second, high 1st pellet damage and low per ray damage scale is actually better for consistency, especially at longer ranges. Low 1st pellet and high per ray damage scale is only good for overdamage, whereas high 1st pellet and low per ray damage scale gives more damage to shots that land fewer pellets than are necessary to land a kill.

 

Between these two fact, I believe the buffed NFAS-12 could potentially delete the DOW, even at ranges.

 

 

Lastly, I didn't say that a huge damage buff to the DOW should permanently go to live, I said it should be tried, presumably in a test district. Same goes for the choke, I don't know if 50% would be good, but seeming as 35% feels like it does nothing I'd start by trying out 50%. And let's not forget that it takes 1.2s to shoot 3 shots at the reduced RoF; at that point you could be using the LCR and get the same TTK, not to mention the DOW still has less range than the Shredder and still would have more spread even with 50% reduced spread.

 

 

16 minutes ago, Ketog said:

OGRE

. . . As for your firerate change im completely against it , ogre is supposed to overwhelm you enemy with a rain of bullets lowering it's rate of fire would basically make it a worse NFAS-12 even if it's only by a little .

 

TLDR for ogre ; Put it's damage equal to NFAS 12 like it used to be before , it will give the close range consistency that it needs right now , put the range back to where it used to be before the Per Ray Damage Scale mechanic was added , and don't touch it's firerate ,  all of this will make ogre the gun it used to be .

 

Sure, the Ogre's supposed to overwhelm your enemy in CQC, and the ACT-44 is supposed to land shots, but sometimes things just can't be how they're supposed to be, and realistically it would seem the game can't handle the Ogre's RoF. That said, I don't think the Ogre's RoF should be nerfed unless it specifically becomes OP with the changes I suggested, as I'd rather have the gun be reliable and not break the game than have a high RoF, break the game, and not get consistent TTKs.

 

So basically, your claim that my suggestions would make the gun a worse NFAS-12 are ridiculous, because I'm only suggesting its RoF be reduced if it happens to become overpowered, and I never even said I want it reduced to NFAS-12 fire rate.

 

 

Anyhoo, thanks for the feedback, but I can't agree, and honestly it sounds like you didn't quite understand that what you're taking issue with was suggested with alternatives (or as alternatives) in case of my initial thoughts being wrong.

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2 minutes ago, Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 said:

Yes

 

Cool.  ❤️

1 hour ago, AsgerLund said:

I didn’t read the text, but I’m for your idea. Simply because you put more effort into this one post, than I have put into all my forum post put together. Both forums.

 

IDK man, man-bewbs take a lot of effort. Thanks though.

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sweet christmas, this is a long one

 

ill go over it later

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Just now, NotZombieBiscuit said:

Can I get a TLDR

shotguns big

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I was right in the first place i made several posts about how these shotguns changes were terrible and nobody listened to me just a few people before these updates but anyways they need to revert the ogre and revert the improved riflings to what they used to be 

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38 minutes ago, virginiavirgin said:

revert the improved riflings to what they used to be 

improved rifling has already been returned to its previous stats

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3 hours ago, virginiavirgin said:

I was right in the first place i made several posts about how these shotguns changes were terrible and nobody listened to me just a few people before these updates but anyways they need to revert the ogre and revert the improved riflings to what they used to be 

 

I'm pretty sure there were several people, like, around half the community, that disagreed with the shotgun changes all along.

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I disageee with your suggesting fire rate buff to JG and CSG. Recent nerf of its fire rate forces shotgunners to use shotguns tactically and forces using cover instead of fully rushing. Ttk was raised so shotguns are not able to out-TTK most of weapons in a straight fight.

I am all in for raising its range, and reliability tho. 15m for JG, 20 for CSG. 

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7 minutes ago, AxeTurboAgresor said:

I disageee with your suggesting fire rate buff to JG and CSG. Recent nerf of its fire rate forces shotgunners to use shotguns tactically and forces using cover instead of fully rushing. Ttk was raised so shotguns are not able to out-TTK most of weapons in a straight fight.

I am all in for raising its range, and reliability tho. 15m for JG, 20 for CSG. 

 

I guess, but. . . relying entirely on your environment 100% of the time is kinda' shitty, and makes them almost entirely reliant on having a van you can hide behind on huge portions of the map (which only works in 1v1s.)

 

When the assault rifles out-TTK in CQC over shotguns if you don't have control of the environment, it kinda' raises the question of why would you use a shotgun? And it's not just about being good or not, because just like you can put in effort to try and take cover your enemy can put in effort to deny you cover, so a gun requiring cover in CQC, where your enemy has the most control over your position, just sucks. Not to mention that still with pump shotguns, the CSG especially, you need to land every shot well or you're fucked, unlike SMGs.

 

 

Sure, I'll continue to use shotguns no matter what, just like I use lots of bad guns, but I'd rather shotguns be like, legitimate? And seeming as you rarely saw shotguns back when they were 0.68s, I feel like you'd need to do a full rework of shotguns, and perhaps all weapons within close range, to make shotguns require you to play cover and be legitimate choices.

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@Kewlin Dude I used to play with my TAC20 all the time, and still playing (stopped since IR3 nerf and started again right after they reversed it back) so dont tell me that it seems like I saw the shotguns on the pictures only.  I was the one who suggested this fire rate nerf for shotguns. Its not like TTK of 0.72s totally ruins its ability to 1v1, but it forces u to use shotguns more tactically.

Shotguns are still great, but its range sucks, and it needs to be a little more reliable again. They dont need no TTK buff. It seems like u want to overbuff it.

 

Edited by AxeTurboAgresor

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13 minutes ago, AxeTurboAgresor said:

@Kewlin Dude I used to play with my TAC20 all the time, and still playing (stopped since IR3 nerf and started again right after they reversed it back) so dont tell me that it seems like I saw the shotguns on the pictures only.  I was the one who suggested this fire rate nerf for shotguns. Its not like TTK of 0.72s totally ruins its ability to 1v1, but it forces u to use shotguns more tactically.

Shotguns are still great, but its range sucks, and it needs to be a little more reliable again. They dont need no TTK buff.

 

Look, I'm sure you're really great with the TAS20, but it sucks TBH. Sure, I can get kills with it too, I can even go positive with it sometimes, but I could get more kills with a good gun like the OCA or Manic.

 

You don't even know the CSG's TTK, and you didn't even double check it, (It's 0.77s,) like. . . IDK man. Can you give me a reason the gun's should have gotten a RoF nerf actually? You're not giving any real reason, you're just basically saying you have a fetish for punishment. The guns were fine before the TTK nerf, so unless you have a reason they should have the nerf, I'm going to disagree.

 

IMO there needs to be a very substantial reason to actually change the playstyle of a gun that's already existing in a game, and a 0.09s increase in the CSG's TTK was pretty fucking significant.

Edited by Kewlin
Wording and Grammar

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@Kewlin Cus they were shooting too fast for what it is. Becouse when u nail this 2 hits good, it kills too fast. For the third time: to force shotgunners use its weapon more tactically. Whats so hard to understand about it? For the same reason why shredder is shooting slower again. Also, its bugging me out that u consider Strife to be on a good spot since its terrible high TTK is the only reason I fcking hate to use this gun, yet u love it. Why? 

If u can do better with OCA, well fine go take yo OCA. But u cant compare OCA to JG/CSG cuz they fulfill the different purpose. And yes, I fully agree that JG/CSG needs some kind of buff, but NOT in its rate of fire.

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44 minutes ago, AxeTurboAgresor said:

@Kewlin Cus they were shooting too fast for what it is. Becouse when u nail this 2 hits good, it kills too fast. For the third time: to force shotgunners use its weapon more tactically. Whats so hard to understand about it? For the same reason why shredder is shooting slower again. Also, its bugging me out that u consider Strife to be on a good spot since its terrible high TTK is the only reason I fcking hate to use this gun, yet u love it. Why? 

If u can do better with OCA, well fine go take yo OCA. But u cant compare OCA to JG/CSG cuz they fulfill the different purpose. And yes, I fully agree that JG/CSG needs some kind of buff, but NOT in its rate of fire.

 

They weren't too good though, lol, and even if they can land 2-shots reliably that still wouldn't make them OP. The Shredder is a bad example for exactly this reason: the reason the Shredder got its RoF buff reverted is because they buffed the gun into a god-like tier of its own, so of course they reverted some of the buffs, but the CSG and JG were not OP at 0.68s TTK. Give me actual evidence or a real reason that the CSG and JG shot too fast and I might be able to take you seriously, but you keep just saying that they shoot too fast and you want them to feel tactical. 0.68s TTK isn't too fast, the DOW can hit 0.6s easy and it's not OP. "Feeling tactical" is entirely relative to each individual and as such means virtually nothing.

 

What you're saying makes the Strife bad is specifically the whole purpose of the Strife, if you don't want a high TTK shotgun then use a different shotgun: not every gun in APB is made for every person, that's why there's more than one gun in APB. The point of the Strife is hitting hard with a low RoF, it's essentially the N-HVR 762 of close range, just like it's supposed to be. So I'm saying the Strife is in a good spot because it does exactly what it's intended to do, and it does it perfectly. Don't think of the Strife like other shotguns and you might enjoy it, because in a lot of ways it's more of a support weapon than anything else.

 

And honestly? Shotguns and SMGs really fill the same role, 'cause for most practical purposes range is most of what matters, so yeah, I can compare the OCA and CSG just like I can compare the LCR and CR762, because they're relatively interchangeable in a team composition. Shotguns aren't special snowflakes: as far as the META is concerned they're just guns that fill a certain set of ranges, and that's why nobody uses them when SMGs fill those ranges better.

 

And to top it all off, the fact that you're going off on this is hilarious because I specifically said in my post that I'd only reduce their RoF if they still were underpowered, I.E., I didn't even outright say they should get a RoF buff, I just think it should be considered if they still feel underpowered after changes to their range (and damage in the case of the CSG.)

Edited by Kewlin

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31 minutes ago, Kewlin said:

What you're saying makes the Strife bad is specifically the whole purpose of the Strife, if you don't want a high TTK shotgun then use a different shotgun

...

31 minutes ago, Kewlin said:

Shotguns and SMGs really fill the same role

Dude u just literally contradicted ur own arguments in one post. If u dont like TTK of shotguns just go and grab OCA which has 0.64s and even lower with CJ if I remember correctly. 

Shotguns plays differently than SMGs, and thats the reason u might put your hands on shottie instead of SMGs if the playstyle fits you more.

  • If straight gameplay suits u more, ofc u will take an SMG.
  • Shotguns are not for strahgit gameplay.

This is what I wanted to highlight especially for u ^

Shotguns are better in other aspects of cqc.

 

Also u r the one who got triggered to me not agreeing with ur fire rate buff. I play shotguns a lot, and I say that JG/CSG does not need no rate of fire buff, cuz its perfectly OK. The problem lays somewhere else, and if u rly meant what u say about rate of fire buff being the last desperate move, u wouldnt be doing such a big drama about my disagreement.

Edited by AxeTurboAgresor

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12 minutes ago, AxeTurboAgresor said:

Dude u just literally contradicted ur own arguments in one post.

 

First off, I feel like you meant to quote a different part of my post about the Strife, because the two things you quoted don't contradict each other. Maybe you meant this quote?

 

50 minutes ago, Kewlin said:

Don't think of the Strife like other shotguns and you might enjoy it, because in a lot of ways it's more of a support weapon than anything else.

 

Would you believe me if I said I half-contradicted myself as a joke? But really, it's also true because as I said the Strife is more of a support gun, so in the same way as you wouldn't compare an ALIG to a CR762 even though they have "the same range," comparing a Strife to a CSG doesn't really work directly because the Strife is intended more for support than anything. However, the CSG and JG are both realistically anti-personnel like SMGs are. Essentially, the JG and OCA, for example, fill very similar roles even though they play differently. To be clear, do you understand the difference between the playstyle and roles/purpose of a gun?

 

What I personally find hilarious is that you're calling me out for contradicting myself, but also complained that the Strife was bad by basically listing the fact that it's different as your reason in the same argument you're saying the CSG and JG need a higher TTK because they're supposed to be entirely different from SMGs.

 

13 minutes ago, AxeTurboAgresor said:

If u dont like TTK of shotguns just go and grab OCA which has 0.64s and even lower with CJ if I remember correctly. 

Shotguns plays differently than SMGs, and thats the reason u might put your hands on shottie instead of SMGs if the playstyle fits you more.

 

So if I liked how shotguns were just a few months ago I should just not propose we maybe bring them back to the way they were? You're acting like shotguns have always been this way, when this is the only time, at least since G1 took over, that the CSG and JG have had a TTK of over 0.7s. I like shotguns, why in the world do you think I made this thread that took me forever to make if I didn't like shotguns? Why do you think it's your way or the highway? I've been playing this game as long as you or longer, and I've always liked shotguns in this game, sorry if I don't agree with you on what TTK on whether or not it'd be nice if they were brought back to the TTK they've basically always had.

 

I'm aware that shotguns play differently than shotguns, no shit, but for the most part they fill the same ranges and role. Maybe the reason I want to play a CSG instead of an OCA is because it plays differently, and I don't just choose guns based on TTK, did you ever think of that? And maybe I just want them to be competitive again, and currently both of them suck-patootie and are potentially the worst guns in the game.

 

You're basically implying over and over that the one difference between the CSG and JG, and SMGs, is their TTK, and I have no clue why because they've never played the same.

 

22 minutes ago, AxeTurboAgresor said:

 

  • If straight gameplay suits u more, ofc u will take an SMG.
  • Shotguns are not for strahgit gameplay.

 

This is what I wanted to highlight especially for u ^

Shotguns are better in other aspects of cqc.

 

You never even said what the other things are that the CSG and JG are better at, lol.

 

And for your information, I prefer gay gameplay: straight gameplay is boring as fuck.

 

23 minutes ago, AxeTurboAgresor said:

Also u r the one who got triggered to me not agreeing with ur fire rate buff. I play shotguns a lot, and I say that JG/CSG does not need no rate of fire buff, cuz its perfectly OK. The problem lays somewhere else, and if u rly meant what u say about rate of fire buff being the last desperate move, u wouldnt be doing such a big drama about my disagreement.

 

It's weird how I'm replying to someone who's disagreeing with me on a thread I made on a forum about APB, it's almost as if forums are made for discussing things, and I came here and posted this thread because I wanted to put forward my thoughts and discuss shotguns. And what of the fact that I'm the only one? What other people do you actually see discussing things on this thread? It shouldn't come as a big surprise that the original poster on a thread is talking in a thread. Not to mention, the 7 people who agreed with me on the pole probably, I don't know, agree with me? Furthermore, why do you think I have over 8,000 forum posts? I like to talk about APB, it has nothing to do with you or your ideas in particular.

 

And I didn't say it was a last desperate move, please, stop reading into shit. I would prefer their RoF be reduced: it doesn't take a genius to see that, but I don't want it to be done if it happens to make the guns OP. Please stop trying to read the lines, there's nothing between the lines. I say what I mean because I have no reason to say anything else, and I say precisely what I mean because I believe that if you aren't going to spend the time to properly write out your thoughts posting on a text-based platform is a waste of time for you and everyone reading what you write.

 

 

 

But can you give me a substantial reason why the CSG and JG shouldn't have their RoF reverted if it turns out to not be OP, like I suggested in the original post? It's not like if the JG gets its TTK reverted to 0.68s it'll suddently shoot a single bullet per shot at 125 damage roughly 11 times a second: it'll still be just as different from SMGs as it has been for the entire time APB has been out. You're calling me triggered, but you're the one acting like if the CSG and JG get their RoF increased they'll suddenly become OCAs.

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1 hour ago, Kewlin said:

And to top it all off, the fact that you're going off on this is hilarious because I specifically said in my post that I'd only reduce their RoF if they still were underpowered

This is the last thing I will reply to u, cuz u r acting hilarious. U keep ignoring things u said urself and trying to talk ur way around. Pushing the sh*t to the edge just to prove ur point. Guess what, u fell off that edge bruh, and now u act all awkward with yo broken legs. 

So now we are calling every shitty weapon "support" weapon. Ok.

 

JG/CSGs current TTK is ok for me, but its reliability sucks patootie. Git gut ❤️ 

Edited by AxeTurboAgresor

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1 hour ago, Kewlin said:

And honestly? Shotguns and SMGs really fill the same role, 'cause for most practical purposes range is most of what matters, so yeah, I can compare the OCA and CSG just like I can compare the LCR and CR762, because they're relatively interchangeable in a team composition. Shotguns aren't special snowflakes: as far as the META is concerned they're just guns that fill a certain set of ranges, and that's why nobody uses them when SMGs fill those ranges better.

 

The amount of thought that went into the original post is pretty impressive. I'm not really going to comment on your suggestions just yet but I will ask if you think SMGs need better balancing if we are to ever fix shotguns? The OCA is still at its stupid low ttk which it was given to help combat shotguns.

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