Why were the OCA and NTEC Test-A changes not pushed to live?

[mynd 120]

Destroying hip-fire accuracy on the Ntec is about the only thing that will make the masses happy it seems.  Though both Shotguns and SMGs have an edge over the Ntec in CQC due to their mobility already.  If you're consistently losing to an Ntec in CQC with an SMG, the other player is just better.

Course, this has all been said over and over.

[Nitronik 348]

5 minutes ago, mynd said:

Destroying hip-fire accuracy on the Ntec is about the only thing that will make the masses happy it seems.  Though both Shotguns and SMGs have an edge over the Ntec in CQC due to their mobility already.  If you're consistently losing to an Ntec in CQC with an SMG, the other player is just better.

Course, this has all been said over and over.

any arguments other than "you're just bad"


EDIT : Forum quotes are broken, sigh
@foolish ninja that could also be a workable nerf I guess, in the end it'd hit tap / burst firing which would kinda hit its ranged capabilities Edited October 3, 2018 by Nitronik

[Flaws 1033]

5 minutes ago, Nitronik said:

any arguments other than "you're just bad"

In the end it comes down to that most of the time though.

[CookiePuss 5373]

17 minutes ago, Nitronik said:

Forum quotes are broken, sigh

When this happens, and it happens a lot... highlight the text you want to quote and click "quote selection". 


 

[vsb 6170]

1 hour ago, mynd said:

Destroying hip-fire accuracy on the Ntec is about the only thing that will make the masses happy it seems. 

is this about walking hipfire accuracy? otherwise i dont think ive ever seen anyone complain about the ntec hipfire accuracy before

 

42 minutes ago, CookiePuss said:

When this happens, and it happens a lot... highlight the text you want to quote and click "quote selection". 

its gotten to the point where i just dont even use the quote button anymore lol

[Similarities 226]

2 hours ago, Nitronik said:

any arguments other than "you're just bad"

 

If you're consistently losing to the N-TEC in CQC with a PMG/OCA, you ARE just bad.

[Revoluzzer 274]

8 hours ago, Kempington said:

a good ntec user will never have to use any other weapon in the game. I wouldn't really say that makes the ntec unbalanced, just far too versatile.

How is a weapon that a good player never has to switch out and is "just far too versatile" still not unbalanced? None of those statements supports coming to this conclusion.

"The speed limit is 120 and you were going 150, but I wouldn't really say you were going faster than you are allowed to."
"He's the best runner, sprinter and jumper in the world, but I wouldn't really say he's better at all those things than most other people."
 

[Excalibur! 207]

1 hour ago, Revoluzzer said:

How is a weapon that a good player never has to switch out and is "just far too versatile" still not unbalanced? None of those statements supports coming to this conclusion.

"The speed limit is 120 and you were going 150, but I wouldn't really say you were going faster than you are allowed to."
"He's the best runner, sprinter and jumper in the world, but I wouldn't really say he's better at all those things than most other people."
 

Nice smoke bud. A whole post without any sense on it.

5 hours ago, Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 said:

Ima keep it real with u chief: the ntec, which falls under the ASSAULT RIFLE class, isn't really meant to be used in cqc. There's a reason why the pointman guns and secondaries exist

Secondaries for cqc... and these people give opinion on balance.
See how things are going thanks to trash like this. Edited October 3, 2018 by Excalibur!

[Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 269]

2 hours ago, Excalibur! said:

Secondaries for cqc... and these people give opinion on balance.
See how things are going thanks to trash like this.

Enlighten me. Say I'm using a hvr (and we all know how it now performs in cqc with its last nerf). You're saying whatever secondary I pick, I'm fucked for cqc? Guess I'll never play the hvr again, as that gets rid of any chance in cqc I have. Remember guys, if you use a weapon catered specifically to long range, just expect to die in cqc. Don't bother retaliating

[vsb 6170]

5 minutes ago, Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 said:

Enlighten me. Say I'm using a hvr (and we all know how it now performs in cqc with its last nerf). You're saying whatever secondary I pick, I'm fucked for cqc? Guess I'll never play the hvr again, as that gets rid of any chance in cqc I have. Remember guys, if you use a weapon catered specifically to long range, just expect to die in cqc. Don't bother retaliating

might as well just delete secondaries

[Kempington 295]

6 hours ago, Revoluzzer said:

How is a weapon that a good player never has to switch out and is "just far too versatile" still not unbalanced? None of those statements supports coming to this conclusion.

"The speed limit is 120 and you were going 150, but I wouldn't really say you were going faster than you are allowed to."
"He's the best runner, sprinter and jumper in the world, but I wouldn't really say he's better at all those things than most other people."
 

You're consolidating the potency of the weapon at each range with whether or not it's tangible to use said weapon at that range/ if it can be used at that range.

In my mind, those are two separate entities. The N-TEC has the accuracy to play up to 70m and hit every shot consistently when tap firing. However, it's potency doing so is extremely minimal, given its damage drops off after 50m.

The N-TEC can be sprayed in close quarters to deal with discerning individuals. However, it's not the best choice for that range at all.


It's unfair to say the n-tec is unbalanced primarily because of its versatility. The STAR has just the same amount of versatility as the n-tec in terms of range capability and play, even more-so with regards to hipfiring in CQC, but the STAR isn't OP because of its versatility. I've been using it more recently and some mod loadouts do push the STAR's capability pretty far. It's remarkable.

I would say the N-TEC is unbalanced in relation to the other assault rifles in the game, as it does outshine most of them at the 25-40m ranges pretty comfortably. At 50m, it's a bit of a toss-up between it and the n-tec 7 / AR-97 "Misery". And, let's not forget, the n-tec does get outclassed in CQC by the ATAC/ACES Rifle. But it does stand tall against other ARs.

Bringing then N-TEC down a peg or two wouldn't really hurt much at all, as long as others were brought slightly up as well. They key here is variety and ensuring you're well equipped for the task at hand. The N-TEC being as versatile as it is and being an easy go-to-choice reduces that requirement a lot, not because it's the best tool for the job, but because it can be done, just not as effectively whilst also getting you ready for other scenarios, too. It covers a lot of bases, just not in the best way. The lazy man's go-to weapon. Edited October 4, 2018 by Kempington

[Nitronik 348]

20 hours ago, Similarities said:

If you're consistently losing to the N-TEC in CQC with a PMG/OCA, you ARE just bad.

grasping at straws calling me bad doesn't really change anything

14 hours ago, Kempington said:

It's unfair to say the n-tec is unbalanced primarily because of its versatility. The STAR has just the same amount of versatility as the n-tec in terms of range capability and play, even more-so with regards to hipfiring in CQC, but the STAR isn't OP because of its versatility. I've been using it more recently and some mod loadouts do push the STAR's capability pretty far. It's remarkable.
 

Keep in mind the STAR has much shittier bloom recovery and a higher base TTK. It is more versatile in the roles it can cover (avoid Hunting Sight if I need some CQC panic backup, else slap it on to poke fools), not so much in fulfilling all of them at once

  Edited October 4, 2018 by Nitronik

[foolish ninja 59]

17 hours ago, Similarities said:

If you're consistently losing to the N-TEC in CQC with a PMG/OCA, you ARE just bad.

Its not about losing consistently, its that Ntec is versatile at almost any range. 
He has the potential killing you at close combat.
But other way around, the Smgs or shotguns dont even have any chance to win against Ntec at 30m+.

You see what we mean?

[mynd 120]

11 hours ago, Nitronik said:

grasping at straws  calling me bad doesn't really change anything

For me, I wasn't calling you bad, or anyone else bad.  But it's a fair argument that when 2 people of equal skill face off, OCA vs Ntec in CQC, the OCA will usually win.  If an OCA is consistently losing to an Ntec in CQC, then yes, it comes down to a skill differential.  That is a valid argument.

In my post above, I chose not to say a player 'is bad' because such statements incite argument and obstruct objectivity; I am trying to be objective.

[GhosT 1301]

38 minutes ago, mynd said:

For me, I wasn't calling you bad, or anyone else bad.  But it's a fair argument that when 2 people of equal skill face off, OCA vs Ntec in CQC, the OCA will usually win.  If an OCA is consistently losing to an Ntec in CQC, then yes, it comes down to a skill differential.  That is a valid argument.

In my post above, I chose not to say a player 'is bad' because such statements incite argument and obstruct objectivity; I am trying to be objective.

Let's turn this around.

Can the OCA kill something 60+ meters away from you? No.
Can the N-TEC effectively compete with SMGs in CQC? Yes. Why? Edited October 4, 2018 by GhosT

[mojical 159]

1 hour ago, GhosT said:

Let's turn this around.

Can the OCA kill something 60+ meters away from you? No.
Can the N-TEC effectively compete with SMGs in CQC? Yes. Why?

Medium and long range fights are inherently easier to escape from. An experienced OCA player, if being shot by an N-Tec from 60 meters away, will seek cover or a vehicle rather than try to engage the enemy. On the other hand, if the OCA sneaks up on an N-Tec from 10 meters range, the N-Tec player is forced to commit to the fight at a disadvantage. 

The one thing that bothers me about the N-Tec is how large its magazine size is, which makes it incredibly easy to spam even when inaccurate. This is the one part of the changes that I somewhat agree with, although 28/30 instead of 32 will make basically no difference. 24 or even 20 would make a lot more sense to not only set it apart further from the STAR as the accuracy/range focused alternative, it would also pressure the player to make their shots count rather than spraying. This would be much like the .45, where its versatility comes at a cost of kills per magazine. 

Ultimately though, it makes no sense to nerf either of those weapons and overlook the PMG once more, where the above argument applies even more, since it has no effective bloom between shots besides the high kills per magazine. 

[Genobee 143]

18 hours ago, Lyfeld said:

Ultimately though, it makes no sense to nerf either of those weapons and overlook the PMG once more, where the above argument applies even more, since it has no effective bloom between shots besides the high kills per magazine. 

I get why you brought up the PMG, but it's also not really the focus of anything right now for a reason. 

Meanwhile the OCA is the center of attention because it is an absolute monster. You can bring the TTK down to .61~ with no real downside. Versus the PMG's .7 and CJ3 just puts it at .65 above the OCA's stock TTK. The only real advantage the PMG has is marginally better accuracy (3cm at 10m), +5m dropoff range, .10s faster reload, and a better kill to mag ratio. Sounds like a lot. It just isn't enough to put it on par with the OCA in most peoples eyes it seems. That comically fast TTK on the OCA is outpacing all of those upsides.. that's not good. Edited October 5, 2018 by Genobee

[Nitronik 348]

4 hours ago, Genobee said:

I get why you brought up the PMG, but it's also not really the focus of anything right now for a reason. 

Meanwhile the OCA is the center of attention because it is an absolute monster. You can bring the TTK down to .61~ with no real downside. Versus the PMG's .7 and CJ3 just plain does weird things to it. So I'm not even going to count it. The only real advantage the PMG has is marginally better accuracy (3cm at 10m), +5m dropoff range, .10s faster reload, and a better kill to mag ratio. Sounds like a lot. It just isn't enough to put it on par with the OCA in most peoples eyes it seems. That comically fast TTK on the OCA is outpacing all of those upsides.. that's not good.

I have no idea why G1 thought it was necessary to buff the OCA this much. A push to 0.68ttk like what LO was planning would've been more than enough

[mojical 159]

15 hours ago, Genobee said:

Meanwhile the OCA is the center of attention because it is an absolute monster. You can bring the TTK down to .61~ with no real downside. Versus the PMG's .7 and CJ3 just plain does weird things to it. So I'm not even going to count it. The only real advantage the PMG has is marginally better accuracy (3cm at 10m), +5m dropoff range, .10s faster reload, and a better kill to mag ratio. Sounds like a lot. It just isn't enough to put it on par with the OCA in most peoples eyes it seems. That comically fast TTK on the OCA is outpacing all of those upsides.. that's not good.

Both the PMG and OCA behave the same when it comes down to Cooling Jacket. With no CJ at all or CJ1, there is no bloom at all (it has enough time to recover it all between shots), whereas CJ2 has only a minimal amount of bloom for both, and CJ3's starts to get noticeable. However, being SMGs it could be argued that the lower TTK is worth it, so players usually go with CJ2/CJ3 regardless.

The problem with simply comparing TTK is that it's much harder to hit 8 shots than 5 shots over a timeframe of 0.6x seconds. If cover is also involved, requiring less shots to kill is a large advantage.

TTK aside, there are other reasons why some players may choose the OCA over the PMG, such as the PMG being considered a "noob gun", boring to play, its aesthetics, etc. Personally if I had the choice between fighting an opponent who is using a PMG versus one that is using an OCA, I would always consider the OCA user easier to beat. Although that might be because of my own playstyle and thus not applicable to everyone. 

I'm not trying to defend the OCA though, the TTK decrease was certainly excessive. However, I think that the PMG and OCA are balanced relative to each other as it stands now, even though PC usage might favor the OCA.  This means that they are both above other weapons that perform similar functions, such as ARMAS SMGs or carbines.  Edited October 5, 2018 by Lyfeld
Changed "increase" to "decrease"

[Nitronik 348]

1 hour ago, Lyfeld said:

I'm not trying to defend the OCA though, the TTK increase was certainly excessive.

Just a small correction - the OCA got a TTK decrease

The only short range ARMAS guns that get shitstomped by the vanilla SMGs are probably only the Norsemen (just bad) and the H-9 Curse (which at least should have some range to it)

  Edited October 5, 2018 by Nitronik

[Genobee 143]

3 hours ago, Lyfeld said:

You are right about the PMG with CJ3. It statistically should not have any negative effects on the weapons performance. I've updated my post to reflect that. That's what I get for replying in the middle of the night without thinking things out.

Beyond that I still do not agree however. It may be easier to deal a larger amount of damage if there's only a window to land a shot at best. Beyond that the OCA is more forgiving and consistent within normal SMG ranges. Then at the tail-end even the PMG starts missing shots. Plus missing a shot on the PMG incurs a much steeper penalty. Making me wonder why that's being cited as a positive for the gun?

I don't know. I can't even call the PMG the "noob gun". The OCA has in my eyes always held that title for being one of the easiest and least difficult weapons to play with. The PMG always felt like it required a marginally higher amounts of skill.

[Flaws 1033]

21 hours ago, GhosT said:

Let's turn this around.

Can the OCA kill something 60+ meters away from you? No.
Can the N-TEC effectively compete with SMGs in CQC? Yes. Why?

I'm guessing you are a 1 mag 1 kill type of OCA player.

[GhosT 1301]

13 minutes ago, Flaws said:

21 hours ago, GhosT said:

Let's turn this around.

Can the OCA kill something 60+ meters away from you? No.
Can the N-TEC effectively compete with SMGs in CQC? Yes. Why?

I'm guessing you are a 1 mag 1 kill type of OCA player.

Yeah, no. Why are you picking at me?
I mean, look at your streams, you're sometimes a 1 mag 1 kill type of N-TEC player.

[Mozie 54]

Did it really take you guys over 7 years to learn how the guns actually work?

Did you guys not remember the backlash when they changed how guns work while jumping the first time?

Remember bois, the number in the login screen is not your skilllevel its your hours played.
I quit when they touched the n-tec the first time, everyone was using ir3/hs3 while crying about hb2 n-tecs.    #eyeforneye #karma

If you think jumpshootin is bad now you should've seen then ;);).










 

[Nitronik 348]

4 minutes ago, Mozie said:

D
I quit when they touched the n-tec the first time, everyone was using ir3/hs3 while crying about hb2 n-tecs.    #eyeforneye #karma
 

Are you talking about the variable bloom curve? That really was patootie honestly