Weapon Balance - Community discussion

[Excalibur! 207]

Just now, GhosT said:

The ursus deals just enough damage to kill in 5 shots. If your enemy has Clotting Agent 3, you will often require 6 shots to kill him. it's also suffering more recoil and isn't as fast as the N-TEC. It's not as versatile as the N-TEC, especially in close quarters.

 

 

What range are you talking about?

40-50m is the range where the N-TEC really shines when tap fired, and the ATAC isn't effective at that range at all.

 

Ursus completly outgun a ntec at more than 50m range... its a full auto obeya.

[Excalibur! 207]

You are completly forgeting that this game turns around enviroments, ntec cant do allways good and will be outperformed by plenty of guns. Lag and player skill depends on it too.

[GhosT 1301]

5 minutes ago, Ken2 said:

Ntec is made to work at 50m and a plus. Rest of assault rifles are mostly working better than ntec under that range, its really simple.

In pop ups fights or corner to corner any weapon that does more damage will outperform an ntec, see: obeya, obir, ducky, sniper, dmr etcs...

 

You are aware that the N-TEC starts to drop off at 50m, right? So that's not the ideal range it was initially made for. It only extends by 7m if you equip IR3.

How many times do I have to explain the issue to you? Yes, other assault rifles or SMGs outperform the N-TEC under that range. But the N-TEC is perfectly capable of defending itself in such scenarios, while STILL being able to be very lethal at other ranges.

 

4 minutes ago, Ken2 said:

Ursus completly outgun a ntec at more than 50m range... its a full auto obeya.

You can't just go ahead and full auto the ursus. Unless you're planning to take down a whole building.

 

 

Edited May 27, 2018 by GhosT
Added a quote from Ken2's multiposts.

[MySodium 29]

The only problem i have with weapon balance is the HVR and the Yukon and maybe the OCA. Then there's other weapons that need a buff like the Anubis for example, but overall most weapons in the game are quite balanced.

For the HVR, either reduce its damage to around 720 or increase the time to gain accuracy even further so that it plays as an actual support weapon rather than a all around weapon.
Yukon is a meme at this point.. hip fire rate is completely broken
OCA should be reverted imo, they buffed the fire rate for no apparent reason whatsoever. It was fine the way it was, now it just completely annihilates every other SMG in the game. 

No opinion on the NTEC even though some people claim for it to be unbalanced, i'm neutral towards it. Maybe make tapping a little more challenging? I don't know honestly. I personally don't use it that much because people main this weapon all the time and it reduces weapon variety overall. 

[Excalibur! 207]

13 minutes ago, Skjaeg said:

yeah because obviously you with the less popular opinion is clearly correct and all knowing, while GhosT who agrees with literally everyone other than you just has no clue about anything, obviously you just arent as great at apb with the ntec as you think

That plenty of silvers that see a scripie gold using ntec, it doesnt mean the gun is OP. It doesnt mean that they dont take enough care to practice with it and cry is op means they are right.

[Excalibur! 207]

1 minute ago, GhosT said:

You are aware that the N-TEC starts to drop off at 50m, right? So that's not the ideal range it was initially made for. It only extends by 7m if you equip IR3.

How many times do I have to explain the issue to you? Yes, other assault rifles or SMGs outperform the N-TEC under that range. But the N-TEC is perfectly capable of defending itself in such scenarios, while STILL being able to be very lethal at other ranges.

You can equip ir3 to ANY weapon, how many times do you need to find an excuse to spit nerf ntec?

[Skjaeg 15]

im just gonna disagree with you and mute this thread now, you are allowed to keep your opinion but so am i. have a nice day

[Tobii 346]

3 minutes ago, GhosT said:

You are aware that the N-TEC starts to drop off at 50m, right? So that's not the ideal range it was initially made for. It only extends by 7m if you equip IR3.

How many times do I have to explain the issue to you? Yes, other assault rifles or SMGs outperform the N-TEC under that range. But the N-TEC is perfectly capable of defending itself in such scenarios, while STILL being able to be very lethal at other ranges.

 

You can't just go ahead and full auto the ursus. Unless you're planning to take down a whole building.

Don't bother GhosT, you can't reason with the guy. /shrug

 

Edited May 27, 2018 by Tobii

[GhosT 1301]

2 minutes ago, Ken2 said:

You can equip ir3 to ANY weapon, how many times do you need to find an excuse to spit nerf ntec?

How is that even an argument? That wasn't one of my points to begin with, I was just explaining to you how the N-TEC works at ranges.

It's still one of the best weapons, and the most versatile weapons, without IR3.

 

Just now, Tobii said:

Don't bother Ghost, you can't reason with the guy. /shrug

 

Yeah, I am aware. I haven't seen a single useful post of him in the past years.

I'm honestly just doing it to talk about the N-TEC.

[Excalibur! 207]

No, you can't reason with a guy that just thinks of nerfing.

[Excalibur! 207]

Just now, GhosT said:

How is that even an argument? That wasn't one of my points to begin with, I was just explaining to you how the N-TEC works at ranges.

It's still one of the best weapons, and the most versatile weapons, without IR3.

 

 

Yeah, I am aware. I haven't seen a single useful post of him in the past years.

I'm honestly just doing it to talk about the N-TEC.

Versatile, yes, it doesn't really excels at nothing unless a guy is in running in an open area.

[GhosT 1301]

1 minute ago, Ken2 said:

No, you can't reason with a guy that just thinks of nerfing.

I don't just think of nerfing.

I think about balance, and honestly, as far as I can remember, all the weapons I have mentioned to be overperforming the past years have been nerfed.

 

Just now, Ken2 said:

Versatile, yes, it doesn't really excels at nothing unless a guy is in running in an open area.

That's where you're wrong. Most of the firefights happen with cover. The N-TEC is very powerful with and without cover on both ends.

Name me one weapon that is as good as the N-TEC in close range, mid range, and high range.

 

[Scoreson 6]

Quote

02 August 2014 - 01:22 PM

I still remember 1 year ago or so when almost everyone was saying "the ntec is the most balanced weapon in the game" (this was before the obeya and obir nerf).

I'm just wondering what weapon will be the next one to shine, i assume the hvr (wich is already massively used) since the ntec will probably get nerfed based on the amount of requests.

As it turns out i was pretty accurate with this statement.

To be honest i really liked the game before they changed the damage dropoff curves back in 2012(?), i always hated the fact that certain guns would only and exclusively work in their limited range without any sort of smooth damage reduction as the range increases, take for example the act 44, at 72m it takes 4 shots to kill, at 78 it takes 8 and at 80 it takes 12. I'm not saying the range is bad, i'm just pointing out the steep slope in damage reduction.

Other examples would be the Colby RSA, this gun has a time to kill of 1.7 seconds with 3 shots, at 70m it takes 4 shots to kill, at 80m 10 shots; the stabba NL9 (tts 1.56s) is really bad past 45m and useless past 50m, while the CCG has better range and can be used in any situation (before the dropoff change these guns could be interchanged with each other and operate equally as good, having diversity in gameplay is a good thing).

 

This change was intended to make guns effective only in the range they were supposed to be, i get that, but this simply made them useless just a couple of meters out of this range.

 

This is what created the actual meta, HVR being the first on the list, it has almost no drop off damge (90m does 850) and it's always a 2 shots to kill weapon at any range, even 100m.

Next we have OBIR and obeya, both superior to the ntec, especially due to the increased range, accuracy and damage; the OBIR has a ttk of 1.2 seconds which is pretty slow, but the problem of this gun is its damage, 1 single burst does almost 500 damage (half health), 2 burst is more than a hvr shot. The obeya is just an upgraded n-tec, more damage, 1 less shot to kill, better accuracy, less bloom.

Then we have the ntec, this gun was changed in 2015 after the weapon testing district i think (i could be completely wrong here, i wasn't playing during this time and i can't find any patch notes, i'm looking on the blog for any date reference on this one), the nerf happened because many people considered this gun too versatile in many situations (cqc, medium, medium-long range), personally i don't think it needed any changes as only good people could use it to it's full potential in any type of fight, the problem wasn't the n-tec being too versatile, but rather every other gun being restricted to a very specific range/situation.

 

Now all this cycle is happening again since the general balance hasn't been found yet.

 

My suggestion: implement another weapon testing district in which we have the old damage drop off curves for every gun, every weapon available (ARMAS included) for everyone, let only good max threat veteran players play in it and provide feedback, make the following changes:

• HVR: damage reduced to 750, this gun wasn't as dominant as it is today due to the fact that other guns had better range and damage dropoff curves and could easily counteract it, it only had 2 problems: base damage too high, and the ability to annihilate the ttk taking advantage of quick switching (which still needs fixing, and to be honest i'm not sure how to fix it without making disruptive changes)
• OBIR: single burst damage reduced to 400
• Obeya: increased vertical recoil by 10-15%
• N-tec: same stats as the old one (pre 2015 nerf)
• Scout: increased jumping shot accuracy (aka bring back jump shooting)
• SHAW: reduced horizontal recoil by 8% and increased vertical recoil by 10% - on this subject we should talk about muzzle brake and the requirement of rank 195
• Joker carbine: increased ammo capacity to 120

I feel this would be a solid starting point to see how stuff evolves from here, of course there are a lot more guns to talk about such as shotguns and smgs, but i think the majority of the problems regarding guns balance is caused from the inappropriate damage dropoff slope and base damage.

 

Keep in mind this is my view on the subject, i might have missed some aspects or arguments so feel free to express your opinion. Cheers!

 

Edit:

The reason i'm more for a damage dropoff rebalance rather than a strict nerf of guns that don't fit in the actual curves is because the gameplay would otherwise become too repetitive and heavilty influenced on the map played (aka waterfront snipers/obir/obeya only with some n-tecs and casuals smg at cqc). Keep in mind there are a ton of weapons that are not being used simply because they are heavily restricted to very very rare situations and or aren't versatile enough so there is no point in using them.

Edited May 28, 2018 by Scoreson

[MartisLTU 265]

Semi weapons should get fix/nerf .... some how semi weapons like "oscar" shoots faster than full auto rife + no need to zoomin to get same range or accuracy as zoom in and focused ntec ...oh and dont forget this crazy mobility to dodge bullets while shooting ....

Example: 0:27 sec. 1:56 sec.

 

 

In real life and other games semi weapons are slower than auto rifes and reques same focus zoom in as any rife.

 

 

Edited May 27, 2018 by MartisLTU

[CookiePuss 5378]

8 minutes ago, GhosT said:

 

Name me one weapon that is as good as the N-TEC in close range, mid range, and high range.

 

HVR? 

huehuehue

[EventideOne 10]

I don’t necessarily think anything needs to be changed. I’m starting to learn that if you change your mindset on how the game is to actually see the game the way it is and see how the good players got where they are, you start to understand what’s overpowered and what’s not as bad. I had a situation with an HVR where the opp had range advantage but didn’t zero fast enough, and I was able to drop them with the Burst fire pistol. So I guess it’s more of who is in control of what. 

 

That being said. I’ve always thought the STARs rof is slow for an AR. I think you should have to choose between speed and spray over accuracy and stopping power when it comes to choosing between the STAR and NTEC, and it just doesn’t really feel that way.  I don’t mind adding more recoil and maybe a damage hit to compensate for a ROF boost to about .12 or .13 delay instead of .15 where it apparently is. 

[GhosT 1301]

12 minutes ago, Scoreson said:

• N-tec: same stats as the old one (pre 2015 nerf)
• Scout: increased jumping shot accuracy (aka bring back jump shooting)

I'm going to disagree on that, the pre-nerf N-TEC was even stronger than the one we have right now, it was a legit problem to most of the community.

Bringing back the jump shot accuracy of the scout isn't a good idea either. You could accurately shoot people while flying just as fast as sprinting, while having pin point accuracy. To top that off, you could do that over cars and walls, which made it really powerful, and a few objectives very hard to attack/defend. The only downside was that your movement path was predictable, but that didn't balance it out.

 

 

The only changes I would like to see about the two problematic weapons would be to slow down the recovery time of the N-TEC by a little bit, so it isn't as spammable as it is right now. And about the H-VR.. it's a tough one, without making it bad at the same time. A damage reduction to 750 instead of 850 would probably be fine, and a decrease the crouching accuracy while not aiming down the sights.

 

The next problem would probably be the OSCAR, which has been a mainstream weapon for a long time, until people discovered that the N-TEC is more reliable and easier to play.

The OSCAR with RS3 can be hip fired at extreme ranges, and has been a controversial topic for a long time.

Edited May 27, 2018 by GhosT

[AgentWatson 85]

Just now, EventideOne said:

I don’t necessarily think anything needs to be changed. I’m starting to learn that if you change your mindset on how the game is to actually see the game the way it is and see how the good players got where they are, you start to understand what’s overpowered and what’s not as bad. I had a situation with an HVR where the opp had range advantage but didn’t zero fast enough, and I was able to drop them with the Burst fire pistol. So I guess it’s more of who is in control of what. 

 

That being said. I’ve always thought the STARs rof is slow for an AR. I think you should have to choose between speed and spray over accuracy and stopping power when it comes to choosing between the STAR and NTEC, and it just doesn’t really feel that way.  I don’t mind adding more recoil and maybe a damage hit to compensate for a ROF boost to about .12 or .13 delay instead of .15 where it apparently is. 

Screw that, I wanna break some stuff and see what changes. 

[OttomanCat 1]

- Decrease H-NVR health damage from 850 to 695

- Remove or significantly decrease the Percussion Grenade's stamina damage and increase its health damage from 400 to 425

Edited May 27, 2018 by OttomanCat

[DouglasFalcon 125]

This thread was so interesting and good to read until some dude ran in and started defending N-TEC lmao

[Excalibur! 207]

12 minutes ago, GhosT said:

I don't just think of nerfing.

I think about balance, and honestly, as far as I can remember, all the weapons I have mentioned to be overperforming the past years have been nerfed.

 

That's where you're wrong. Most of the firefights happen with cover. The N-TEC is very powerful with and without cover on both ends.

Name me one weapon that is as good as the N-TEC in close range, mid range, and high range.

 

Star, atac, carabine, ursus, obeya (killed plenty of good cqc, even pointmans), cobra, issr...

And you can keep adding weapons if you use your secondaries and tactics, aka gameplay, not raw "its op nerf".

 

[Excalibur! 207]

13 minutes ago, MartisLTU said:

Semi weapons should get fix/nerf .... some how semi weapons like "oscar" shoots faster than full auto rife + no need to zoomin to get same range or accuracy as zoom in and focused ntec ...oh and dont forget this crazy mobility to dodge bullets while shooting ....

Example: 0:27 sec. 1:56 sec.

 

 

In real life and other games semi weapons are slower than auto rifes and reques same focus zoom in as any rife.

 

 

Oh god, how could i forget about oscar, its the most painful gun in the game atm.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Ken2

[GhosT 1301]

6 minutes ago, Ken2 said:

Star, atac, carabine, ursus, obeya (killed plenty of good cqc, even pointmans), cobra, issr...

And you can keep adding weapons if you use your secondaries and tactics, aka gameplay, not raw "its op nerf".

STAR doesn't compete as it's slower, deals less damage and has a slower recovery time.

ATAC can't do much against the N-TEC on range.

Carbine is the same as the ATAC, it's mostly a CQC weapon.

Ursus is slower than the N-TEC in both fire rate and accuracy recovery.

Obeya can only stand it's ground at higher ranges, the N-TEC can easily outgun it.

 

None of these weapons are good at 0m up to 60m, they only fill their own roles within these ranges, and become way worse than the N-TEC out of their designed range.

 

 

Edit: By the way, your picture makes no sense. Why would I go to the forums and complain about the N-TEC when I'm having a JG in an open area?

That's my risk I'm taking and I know I'll be defenseless if I get shot at by anything.

 

 

Edited May 27, 2018 by GhosT

[Nejekur 4]

The big ones to me are the N-TEC and HVR 762. It's the same thing for both too, they're just to overall effective.

The ntec is supposed to dominate midrange which is fine, but with even half a brain you can reliably beat smgs and shotguns in their own ranges, and obeyas in theirs. I'm not really sure what you'd do to make it worse at cqc and long range without touching its mid ability, but it just really needs to be toned down.

The HVR is supposed to be the dominant gun in long range, and its not as overpowering in other ranges, but theirs alot of things you can do with it in cqc that need to be fixed. I'd personally like to see it given a damage curve like the DMR, where it has lower damage in CQC but ramps up to full at longer ranges. if it equaled the scout in damage (550) until about 50m, then went up to its full damage (850), you'd fix that problem and give the poor scout a more defined role as the short range sniper.

[Excalibur! 207]

1 minute ago, GhosT said:

STAR doesn't compete as it's slower, deals less damage and has a slower recovery time.

ATAC can't do much against the N-TEC on range.

Carbine is the same as the ATAC, it's mostly a CQC weapon.

Ursus is slower than the N-TEC in both fire rate and accuracy recovery.

Obeya can only stand it's ground at higher ranges, the N-TEC can easily outgun it.

 

None of these weapons are good at 0m up to 60m, they only fill their own roles within these ranges, and become way worse than the N-TEC out of their designed range.

Boy you are so wrong...

Star, yes it does.

Atac, if you learn to use it, yes it does.

Carabine destroys anything up to 50m if you dont find quick cover.

Ursus need 5 bullets and with irl3 is an obeya upgrade... god if used that gun.

Obeya can destroy an ntec 50m+, i use it with cj3 all the time, and every time i use this gun it doesnt matter who is in the other team they would run instantly to find cover.

Oscar, check the vid posted...

 

Stop embarassing yourself, its all about gameplay, enviroment and tactics. You can outperform ANY gun playing properly. This is not cod or cs, stop pulling your favourite games balances into apb.