TheHidden-Tember 142 Posted July 31, 2018 Hey there! I heard rebalances are incoming so here are my 2 cents: CAP40 is a straight downgrade to OCA, it kills slower. A few months ago, OCA received a time to kill buff for rebalancing reason, but cap40 was completely unaffected even though they're supposed to be equivalent guns. Please buff cap40 accordingly (or maybe nerf all OCAs) 3 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Slickmund 58 Posted July 31, 2018 Cap40 has a different effective range than an OCA and therefore shouldnt match the TTK of the OCA. Not to be an patootie but, they were by no means supposed to be equivalent, it is a JMB weapon, none of those are equal to the standard guns, they are supposed to be unique. I have no experience playing with the cap40, I have seen people talk about that gun however, and it didn't come across to me as if the cap40 was a bad gun, though easily outperformed by the OCA in real CQC. I hope that clarifies the matter for you, I am by no means an expert on those weapon statistic though, so I am not saying youre wrong and im right, this is what I have heard. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AxeTurboAgresor 268 Posted July 31, 2018 Iam sure, there will be more balancing changes. This is correct. Cap40 used to be alternative to oca with same TTK, same accuracy, but different amount of hits to kill. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Slickmund 58 Posted July 31, 2018 6 minutes ago, AxeTurboAgresor said: Iam sure, there will be more balancing changes. This is correct. Cap40 used to be alternative to oca with same TTK, same accuracy, but different amount of hits to kill. In that case scrap what I said. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shini 251 Posted July 31, 2018 (edited) OCA didn't even need the buff. I don't recall anyone clamouring for it lol. Back then the smg choice was pretty wide with ACES, CAP40, Curse, OCA, whisper, pmg. Now its just...oca oca oca. Just back track on the buff imo. It wasn't a bad gun at the time, it was very much in the meta. Edited July 31, 2018 by Shini 3 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kempington 295 Posted July 31, 2018 3 minutes ago, Shini said: OCA didn't even need the buff. I don't recall anyone clamouring for it lol. Back then the smg choice was pretty wide with ACES, CAP40, Curse, OCA, whisper, pmg. Now its just...oca oca oca. Just back track on it. Basically this. The whole oca Vs pmg argument is a bad one in general since the weapons handle quite different from each other. I feel the OCA should be compared to similar weaponry, high STK, high RoF. Eg. Cap40, aces, h-9 curse etc. In regards to those, it outsines them all practically. That being said, the s1-na manic is a beast that nobody uses. Seriously, check it out. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CookiePuss 5382 Posted July 31, 2018 (edited) 52 minutes ago, Kempington said: he s1-na manic is a beast that nobody uses. Seriously, check it out. Best SMG in the game. Love this god damn gun. Edited July 31, 2018 by CookiePuss 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kempington 295 Posted July 31, 2018 2 minutes ago, Ignas / qsn said: Or set OCA as a benchmark for other SMGs and make them capable of fighting against it. Whilst I would agree, I like to also compare the oca as the baseline smg against other close quarter weapons, namely the shotguns. Shotguns do have more control on corners and can corner peek much safer and be more effective with it, they get outclassed almost every where else when up against an SMG (oca for example). I'm happy with smgs slightly outranging shotguns and having that advantage, but being able to outperform shotguns right up close? I'm not so sure. I feel If the OCA was reverted, the only outlier would be the manic. But that has a higher skill requirement in order to do well with it so it's swings and roundabouts. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
magik 184 Posted July 31, 2018 I miss seeing people use the pmg. I remember when everyone frickin hated it, but now, after coming back, no one uses it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shini 251 Posted July 31, 2018 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Ignas / qsn said: Or set OCA as a benchmark for other SMGs and make them capable of fighting against it. OCA used to be the benchmark. Now its set cut and dry above the rest. Bringing the other SMGs to match will just make the smg class as a whole just dominate. Because how would you make the other SMGs a better or alternative choice than the OCA? That would just complicate things and might mess up balance for other weapons as a whole. It was better when the TTK wasn't as low as it used to be. It got changed in the last balance patch a year or two back I believe. It's far less invasive to bring it back in line, people weren't asking for an OCA buff at the time. I can't see them being too upset if it gets brought back. Edited July 31, 2018 by Shini 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CookiePuss 5382 Posted July 31, 2018 what was the old OCA ttk, 0.7 like the PMG? I guess that'd be fine, maybe give it the same 35m dropoff or something to compensate. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GhosT 1301 Posted July 31, 2018 Yeah, ever since they (unnecessarily) buffed the OCA, the only thing that made the CAP-40 "better" has been nullified. They were equal, now the CAP-40 is just worse. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ExoticZ 131 Posted July 31, 2018 2 hours ago, Shini said: OCA didn't even need the buff. I don't recall anyone clamouring for it lol. Back then the smg choice was pretty wide with ACES, CAP40, Curse, OCA, whisper, pmg. Now its just...oca oca oca. Just back track on the buff imo. It wasn't a bad gun at the time, it was very much in the meta. ^this sums up my opinion. The OCA Buff was completely random and I still dont understand why it was buffed. Revert it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrandonBranderson 672 Posted July 31, 2018 (edited) That random rate of fire buff on the OCA just came outta nowhere. It's nearly all I see in Asylum these days. If that change is reverted then it should be on par with the Cap40 again. Always loved the clapping sound of the Cap40 Edited July 31, 2018 by BrandonBranderson 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tennogrineer 71 Posted July 31, 2018 (edited) last two changes to the OCA:Patch 1.19.3 (812) - 14 Oct 2015 Quote OCA The OCA has always been our benchmark SMG, but has slowly fallen very slightly behind others as we've added more weapons to the category. As such it's in need of a very small improvement to bring it back up to par, and we've done so by improving the accuracy radius by 1cm at 10m to 36cm from 37cm. Patch 1.19.4 (886) - 17 May 2016 Quote OCA - Tweaks to fire rate and accuracy. this made the ttk from the previous 0.7s (0.65 CJ3) to 0.64s (0.6s CJ3) this kept it back in line against the other smgs' (stock) ttk. ACES: 0.63s ttk ACES Rifle: 0.71s PMG: 0.7s (0.65 CJ3) h9 curse: 0.77s (0.71s CJ3) - recoil being changed soon cap 40: 0.7s (0.65 CJ3) - pretty much old oca the choice now really comes down to recoil, bloom, and range preference since they all hover around the same ttk and have its own pros and cons. oca is still doing its job as the smg benchmark, its not like the others are abandoned and useless (certainly see plenty of pmgs on NA), its just way less "easily" accessible in comparison. Edited July 31, 2018 by tennogrineer Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheHidden-Tember 142 Posted July 31, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, tennogrineer said: the choice now really comes down to recoil/bloom preference since they all hover around the same ttk and have its own pros and cons. oca is still doing its job as the smg benchmark, its not like the others are abandoned (certainly see plenty of pmgs on NA), its just way less "easily" accessible in comparison. They actually DON't hover all around the same ttk. The difference between 0.64s and 0.7s is actually insane because you have to take into account missed shots. Overall OCA has a much higher chance than any other SMG of downing a target under sustained fire because it just spits out bullets faster. The difference doesn't look like much at first glance but if the engagement lasts for more than two seconds the OCA will win against any other SMG because its DPS is a straight upgrade. Also as an extensive user of cap40, I can say that it's recoil/bloom pattern is a straight downgrade to current OCA as well. The bloom is just bigger. As for my argument for buffing, 0.7s is the ttk of most assault rifles. OCA is the only SMG that actually has a high chance of not getting killed by an assault rifle in cqc Edited July 31, 2018 by TheHidden-Tember 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vsb 6174 Posted July 31, 2018 1 minute ago, tennogrineer said: Patch 1.19.4 (886) - 17 May 2016 this made the ttk from the previous 0.7s (0.65 CJ3) to 0.64s (0.6s CJ3) this kept it back in line against the other smgs' (stock) ttk. ACES: 0.63s ttk ACES Rifle: 0.71s PMG: 0.7s (0.65 CJ3) h9 curse: 0.77s (0.71s CJ3) - recoil being changed soon cap 40: 0.7s (0.65 CJ3) - pretty much old oca the choice now really comes down to recoil/bloom preference since they all hover around the same ttk and have its own pros and cons. oca is still doing its job as the smg benchmark, its not like the others are abandoned (certainly see plenty of pmgs on NA), its just way less "easily" accessible in comparison. the issue is that the oca is incredibly easy to use, whereas all other high rof guns with a competitive ttk have significant drawbacks to balance the low ttk the pmg remains a valid alternative because it matches the oca's ease of use and is very easy to min ttk with due to its mechanics 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tennogrineer 71 Posted July 31, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, TheHidden-Tember said: They actually DON't hover all around the same ttk. The difference between 0.64s and 0.7s is actually insane because you have to take into account missed shots. Overall OCA has a much higher chance than any other SMG of downing a target under sustained fire because it just spits out bullets faster. The difference doesn't look like much at first glance but if the engagement lasts for more than two seconds the OCA will win against any other SMG because its DPS is a straight upgrade. Also as an extensive user of cap40, I can say that it's recoil/bloom pattern is a straight downgrade to current OCA as well. The bloom is just bigger. As for my argument for buffing, 0.7s is the ttk of most assault rifles. OCA is the only SMG that actually has a high chance of not getting killed by an assault rifle in cqc 7 minutes ago, BXNNXD said: the issue is that the oca is incredibly easy to use, whereas all other high rof guns with a competitive ttk have significant drawbacks to balance the low ttk the pmg remains a valid alternative because it matches the oca's ease of use and is very easy to min ttk with due to its mechanics well yeah, when you start throwing in all the variables, of course things tend to shine better than others. im not saying the oca is perfect where it is, it's just the others arent as bad as people make it out to be when the gameplay around them is essentially the game, the true test comes when they are outside their optimal comfort zones..which ends up just relating to missions and map design. no matter where it goes, someone will excel with it. h9 is probably the hardest smg in that regard. Edited July 31, 2018 by tennogrineer Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AsgerLund 1271 Posted July 31, 2018 9 minutes ago, tennogrineer said: well yeah, when you start throwing in all the variables, of course things tend to shine better than others. im not saying the oca is perfect where it is, it's just the others arent as bad as people make it out to be when the gameplay around them is essentially the game, the true test comes when they are outside their optimal comfort zones..which ends up just relating to missions and map design. no matter where it goes, someone will excel with it. h9 is probably the hardest smg in that regard. Whoa - you sound like you have heaps of experience from a better forum than this... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vsb 6174 Posted July 31, 2018 1 minute ago, tennogrineer said: well yeah, when you start throwing in all the variables, of course things tend to shine better than others. im not saying the oca is perfect where it is, it's just the others arent as bad as people make it out to be when the gameplay around them is essentially the game, the true test comes when they are outside their optimal comfort zones..which ends up just relating to missions and map design. no the other guns arent bad, its just that the oca now performs the same as low ttk SMGs without any of the drawback mechanics why would you not throw in all the variables when discussing weapon balance? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tennogrineer 71 Posted July 31, 2018 1 minute ago, AsgerLund said: 11 minutes ago, tennogrineer said: well yeah, when you start throwing in all the variables, of course things tend to shine better than others. im not saying the oca is perfect where it is, it's just the others arent as bad as people make it out to be when the gameplay around them is essentially the game, the true test comes when they are outside their optimal comfort zones..which ends up just relating to missions and map design. no matter where it goes, someone will excel with it. h9 is probably the hardest smg in that regard. Whoa - you sound like you have heaps of experience from a better forum than this... yeah man, i travelled a many jungle gyms and slid down many sliderinos. 1 minute ago, BXNNXD said: no the other guns arent bad, its just that the oca now performs the same as low ttk SMGs without any of the drawback mechanics why would you not throw in all the variables when discussing weapon balance? i guess i totally didnt say anything of the sort. TTours Quote the choice now really comes down to recoil, bloom, and range preference since they all hover around the same ttk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AsgerLund 1271 Posted July 31, 2018 1 minute ago, tennogrineer said: yeah man, i travelled a many jungle gyms and slid down many sliderinos. Word of advice from the top of the jungle gym... On a hot day, don’t go down the sliderinos without wearing shorts. You’ll get fiery buttocks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vsb 6174 Posted July 31, 2018 2 minutes ago, tennogrineer said: the choice now really comes down to recoil, bloom, and range preference since they all hover around the same ttk the choice used to come down to ease of use or maximum performance, but now the oca (and the pmg to a slightly lesser extent) has both Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Slickmund 58 Posted July 31, 2018 9 minutes ago, AsgerLund said: Word of advice from the top of the jungle gym... On a hot day, don’t go down the sliderinos without wearing shorts. You’ll get fiery buttocks. Saves on wax if youre into that of course. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NotZombieBiscuit 3146 Posted July 31, 2018 (edited) Revert OCA Buff. Leave PMG as is. Buff CAP40 Slightly. That would be the easy way to do it, not perfect but nice. Better way to do it would be to: ACES SMG for extreme close range. OCA for close range. PMG for medium close range. CAP40 for long close range. Edited July 31, 2018 by NotZombieBiscuit 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
