Why was the Scoped N-Tec silently nerfed?

[mojical 160]

The Scoped N-Tec has had its shot modifier cap changed from 1.6 to 2.0 in the latest patch. For the N-Tec this change was a buff (it started at 2.4) but for the Scoped variant, which was at 1.6 previously, it is a nerf.

 

I am not sure if this is an oversight (since nothing about this weapon in particular is said in the blog post) or if this is intentional. Given the already very low usage of this weapon I think the former is more likely.

[illgot 379]

I'm still irritated at the model change.  The original model for the scoped N-Tec was the only reason I bought it.

[Lord Cashpoint 269]

1 hour ago, mojical said:

The Scoped N-Tec has had its shot modifier cap changed from 1.6 to 2.0 in the latest patch. For the N-Tec this change was a buff (it started at 2.4) but for the Scoped variant, which was at 1.6 previously, it is a nerf.

 

I am not sure if this is an oversight (since nothing about this weapon in particular is said in the blog post) or if this is intentional. Given the already very low usage of this weapon I think the former is more likely.

 

So they did they just not change the Scoped Variants whilst changing the regular N-tec previously? Was it ever stated that this was an intentional decision? The fact that the Ursus (and to a lesser extent Cap-40) have until recently been overlooked when it comes to weapon changes means I would not be surprised if this was just a correction.

[mojical 160]

12 minutes ago, Lord Cashpoint said:

 

So they did they just not change the Scoped Variants whilst changing the regular N-tec previously? Was it ever stated that this was an intentional decision? The fact that the Ursus (and to a lesser extent Cap-40) have until recently been overlooked when it comes to weapon changes means I would not be surprised if this was just a correction.

Little Orbit explicitly stated that they did not change the scoped N-Tec. It's in the January 29th patch notes, which is when the N-Tec was nerfed to 2.4:

https://www.gamersfirst.com/apb/patch-notes#collapse37

 

 

 

 

[Lord Cashpoint 269]

5 minutes ago, mojical said:

Little Orbit explicitly stated that they did not change the scoped N-Tec. It's in the January 29th patch notes, which is when the N-Tec was nerfed to 2.4:

https://www.gamersfirst.com/apb/patch-notes#collapse37

 

 

 

 

I imagine then the Scoped N-tec was originally in the same boat as the Ursus then - probably overlooked in the January patches, with the most recent balance changes being a correction (Although possibly a mistake) I agree the Scoped N-tec is certainly in need of a bit of attention, but I'm not sure lower max bloom was something that made sense on the weapon, given that its designed for longer range.

[Sakebee 2270]

Hey guys - good catch! The change wasn't supposed to be silent, but I can see how our communication could have caused some confusion. Speaking with the design team, they didn't call out specifically that the scoped version was changed because it is considered a subset of the N-TEC 5 category, which we did mention was getting changed in our blog post. The idea was that it would be unwieldy to call out every single variant when the parent gun gets a change and, unless we state otherwise, changes to the parent gun will also affect variants of that gun. Our apologies if that wasn't clear from the initial blog.

 

 

[Acornie 490]

Hey, since we're talking about the Scoped N-tec, can we talk about how it has zero upsides and only a downside to the normal N-Tec 5? More zoom does not equal more accuracy:
Scoped PR1 vs CR-5 PR2 (for same mods)

Maybe that could be something to take into consideration since there's ongoing weapon balance

[mojical 160]

9 minutes ago, Acornie said:

Hey, since we're talking about the Scoped N-tec, can we talk about how it has zero upsides and only a downside to the normal N-Tec 5? More zoom does not equal more accuracy:

As much as I agree that the Scoped N-Tec is underpowered overall compared to the standard version, it does have upsides, they just do not show on APB DB. Upward recoil is slightly reduced as is damage dropoff due to using a different curve. This however only translates to 2-3m extra 6 shot range in practice and doesn't compensate for worse FOV and the practical loss of Hunting Sight benefits when strafing.

 

I feel like the Scoped was at its very best during the Improved Rifling (fire rate affecting) changes, so somewhat increased range in return for slightly decreased fire rate would be a very welcome change in my opinion.

[SkittyM 287]

1 hour ago, mojical said:

 Upward recoil is slightly reduced as is damage dropoff due to using a different curve.

From what i know of, the Scoped has more recoil in both directions than the normal N-tec.  Though it has a slightly longer range curve than the normal n-tec as well.  At the very least it used to have a longer range curve.  Curve information is not easily available.

[Snubnose 640]

4 hours ago, Sakebee said:

Hey guys - good catch! The change wasn't supposed to be silent, but I can see how our communication could have caused some confusion. Speaking with the design team, they didn't call out specifically that the scoped version was changed because it is considered a subset of the N-TEC 5 category, which we did mention was getting changed in our blog post. The idea was that it would be unwieldy to call out every single variant when the parent gun gets a change and, unless we state otherwise, changes to the parent gun will also affect variants of that gun. Our apologies if that wasn't clear from the initial blog.

 

 

now that the scoped ntec came up I thought about the retail pack version with only extended magazine 3... such a bad mod on a rather bad weapon.

with the next balance changes, will there also be some changes to some of the worst modded preset weapons? because some of them badly need it.

[vsb 6171]

12 minutes ago, Snubnose said:

will there also be some changes to some of the worst modded preset weapons?

just taking this opportunity to float my "presets that require anything other than apb$ to buy are bad" opinion, in the hopes that little orbit will listen

[PingOVER9000 189]

8 hours ago, mojical said:

The Scoped N-Tec has had its shot modifier cap changed from 1.6 to 2.0 in the latest patch. For the N-Tec this change was a buff (it started at 2.4) but for the Scoped variant, which was at 1.6 previously, it is a nerf.

 

I am not sure if this is an oversight (since nothing about this weapon in particular is said in the blog post) or if this is intentional. Given the already very low usage of this weapon I think the former is more likely.

 

It was already bad since almost forever ... weird or more horizontal/ vertical recoil, move a little  anything is or w-a-s-d and let's the rampage begin for the missing shots... 

[BlatMan 711]

10 hours ago, SkittyM said:

From what i know of, the Scoped has more recoil in both directions than the normal N-tec.  Though it has a slightly longer range curve than the normal n-tec as well.  At the very least it used to have a longer range curve.  Curve information is not easily available.

It was 5M for the minimum damage range. The difference between number of hits to kill was about 1M. It has worse accuracy while moving in marksman's mode.

 

http://old.apbdb.com/items/Weapon_AssaultRifle_NTEC-Scope_Joker/

http://old.apbdb.com/items/Weapon_AssaultRifle_NTEC_Slot1/

 

With the stupid curve system, this might be 3M or 4M. If you need that little more range and are willing to sacrifice mobility, switching to longer range rifle is better than using the Scoped N-TEC.

Edited October 1, 2020 by SquirrelFace

[mojical 160]

18 hours ago, Sakebee said:

Hey guys - good catch! The change wasn't supposed to be silent, but I can see how our communication could have caused some confusion. Speaking with the design team, they didn't call out specifically that the scoped version was changed because it is considered a subset of the N-TEC 5 category, which we did mention was getting changed in our blog post. The idea was that it would be unwieldy to call out every single variant when the parent gun gets a change and, unless we state otherwise, changes to the parent gun will also affect variants of that gun. Our apologies if that wasn't clear from the initial blog.

 

 

I feel like this is a special case because unlike all other variants where changes described as a buff were still a buff, in this particular case it has the exact opposite effect.

 

This and OCA/RSA fire rate changes aside, I think the latest balance patch was spot on. However, it is unfortunate that I don't get to read how the design team justifies to downgrade the Scoped N-Tec, because it all doesn't make any sense to me as an actual user of said gun. It wasn't overused/overpowered at all with a 1.6 vs 2.4 advantage so why would it be with a 1.6 vs 2.0 one? Reducing weapon variety is a sensible idea, but if you are to normalize away a variant's advantages then you might as well do the same with its disadvantages. Else the game will be littered with dysfunctional variants of free weapons which are harder to obtain or cost real money.

 

Besides, if the weapon was overpowered enough to warrant this change, this would have been noticed at most days after the patch, not weeks.

15 hours ago, SkittyM said:

From what i know of, the Scoped has more recoil in both directions than the normal N-tec.  Though it has a slightly longer range curve than the normal n-tec as well.  At the very least it used to have a longer range curve.  Curve information is not easily available.

ARMAS states that there is less recoil and from my experience using the weapon this makes a lot of sense. The heightened zoom increases perceived recoil which is likely why it was designed this way to begin with. Flavor wise this can be attributed to an improved stock as seen on the pre-skins model, much like its maximum bloom advantage over the regular variant that it has now lost.

 

I will try to test it more in-depth when I have time to make sure that I'm not talking nonsense, but in any case if I am, then ARMAS is wrong as well...

13 hours ago, 404 said:

just taking this opportunity to float my "presets that require anything other than apb$ to buy are bad" opinion, in the hopes that little orbit will listen

I completely agree with this. In fact, the only way to obtain a 3 slotted version of the Scoped N-Tec is to buy the VAS Sceptre reskin, which in my opinion looks even worse than the remade skinnable

model. At the very least, ARMAS versions could have 3 point sling added, because arguably HS3/IR3/3PS3 is the only viable mod setup on this gun and there is no downside to that particular mod.

Edited October 1, 2020 by mojical
removed weasel word

[Motorola 107]

the pr3 preset version is the only version of the scoped ntec that you can strafe with and maintain closed crosshair accuracy.

[BlatMan 711]

7 hours ago, Motorola said:

the pr3 preset version is the only version of the scoped ntec that you can strafe with and maintain closed crosshair accuracy.

The only PR3 I can find on APBDB is a regular N-TEC, and it's Nekrova only.

[SkittyM 287]

10 hours ago, mojical said:

ARMAS states that there is less recoil and from my experience using the weapon this makes a lot of sense. The heightened zoom increases perceived recoil which is likely why it was designed this way to begin with. Flavor wise this can be attributed to an improved stock as seen on the pre-skins model, much like its maximum bloom advantage over the regular variant that it has now lost.

 

Don't believe anything written on the ARMAS page.  Mind that that hasn't been updated since 2014 and contains LARGELY out of date information.

[Cr0 328]

On 9/30/2020 at 11:59 PM, SkittyM said:

From what i know of, the Scoped has more recoil in both directions than the normal N-tec.

No, the scoped N-Tec has always had noticeably less recoil than the normal N-Tec.

 

 

Edited October 2, 2020 by Cr0
Added video

[SinistraDelMassa 11]

On 9/30/2020 at 10:03 PM, Sakebee said:

Hey guys - good catch! The change wasn't supposed to be silent, but I can see how our communication could have caused some confusion. Speaking with the design team, they didn't call out specifically that the scoped version was changed because it is considered a subset of the N-TEC 5 category, which we did mention was getting changed in our blog post. The idea was that it would be unwieldy to call out every single variant when the parent gun gets a change and, unless we state otherwise, changes to the parent gun will also affect variants of that gun. Our apologies if that wasn't clear from the initial blog.

Traditionally, weapon variants in APB:R have been so wildly different in feel and mechanism that it makes perfect sense to be sensitive in announcing any changes. In many cases, the variants might very well be different guns altogether

Edited October 2, 2020 by SinistraDelMassa

[SkittyM 287]

9 hours ago, Cr0 said:

No, the scoped N-Tec has always had noticeably less recoil than the normal N-Tec.

 

 

Interesting.  Must be what that other stat i was looking at then.  Scoped has less marksmen dampening but also has a shorter recoil time.  Actually appreciate that, thanks.

[Cr0 328]

6 hours ago, SkittyM said:

Interesting.  Must be what that other stat i was looking at then.  Scoped has less marksmen dampening but also has a shorter recoil time.  Actually appreciate that, thanks.

No problem.
What do you mean by "marksman dampening"?

[SkittyM 287]

11 hours ago, Cr0 said:

No problem.
What do you mean by "marksman dampening"?

There's always less recoil in marksmen than there is from the hip.  That's due to a pair of dampener stats which are hidden on the DB.

[Cr0 328]

1 hour ago, SkittyM said:

There's always less recoil in marksmen than there is from the hip.  That's due to a pair of dampener stats which are hidden on the DB.

 

Oh, I was hoping it meant something I didn't know

 

[VanilleKeks 737]

On 9/30/2020 at 9:03 PM, Sakebee said:

The idea was that it would be unwieldy to call out every single variant when the parent gun gets a change and, unless we state otherwise, changes to the parent gun will also affect variants of that gun. Our apologies if that wasn't clear from the initial blog.

 

 

Post that statement in future patch notes/blogs to avoid confusion. Not everyone will see this reply.

[Motorola 107]

On 10/1/2020 at 6:06 PM, SquirrelFace said:

The only PR3 I can find on APBDB is a regular N-TEC, and it's Nekrova only.

They prob removed it then. It was a skinned pr3 scoped ntec with 3 point sling 2 as the 3rd mod. It was in the game as a fight club reward a temporary 7 day trial for winning silver weeekly reward in the beta of FC.

 

I had the reward twice