About threat segregation... again.

[HighSociety 148]

I got a clear stance on that.

We have to remove the threat segregation! From the beginning it was a fail to introduce it.

As an addition we should remove the visibility of threat to stop ppl crying about it.

 

In my opinion, in the medium and long term, it will bring more players to APB.

 

Everyone saying we have already tried:

NO... we didn't cuz EU servers were hosted in NA and many ppl just didn't play because of high ping.

[PolarKC 10]

TLDR: Read the post please. I want to have a real discussion about Threat and it's effect on the playerbase and game.

 

I agree. The threat system on a whole isn't healthy for the game. Bare with me while I explain why I think that.

- Threat doesn't indicate relative skill very well. There are only 3 levels (bronze, silver, gold) meaning that each threat level has VASTLY different skill levels within them

- Matt talked about this already in a dev blog, but it doesn't take very long to threat up or threat down. This makes ranks unstable and inaccurate.

- Seeing a threat imbalance is demotivating (2 silvers vs 2 golds for example). This is the reason games like CS:GO don't show you ranks until the END of a match. Someone could be playing really poorly this match and be a higher threat, but if you saw they were gold going into the match you may be pessimistic.

- It creates an avenue for people to trash talk. I get that trash-talk is a part of PvP games, but we need clean our fucking community up so more new players stick around.

 

The gist is that the public facing threat system gives players a perception of how balanced a match is going to be... that is pretty inaccurate. I don't think any game has precisely pinned down a player's ELO because skill levels of an individual can change daily. With that knowledge in mind we can build systems that communicate to players more effectively.

 

What do I think should be done? (essentially what you said, but w/ more explanation and plan) This is a complicated problem that requires a nuanced approach.
- Remove district threat segregation... BUT only after the cross-server matchmaking system is implemented. This of course requires the engine upgrade to 3.5 to be completed. Once that capability exists there is very little reason to keep the districts segregated.

- Remove visible threat. Keep a hidden ELO so matchmaking can continue attempting to provide fair matches. I think what Reloaded had confused about this game (in part because they listened to the highly competitive community on these forums) is that this game was built to be a community based MMO shooter. This is NOT an eSport like Valorant or CS:GO. I play this game to win, but this is not an eSport. I'm glad I'm gold, it gives me the warm and fuzzies but I don't play this game to "threat up" to the highest threat. I play this game because the core game loop is so fucking engaging and fun.

 

 

What are your thoughts? I'm just one guy with an opinion. I love discussing game design so I'll try to respond as much as I can.

Edited July 10, 2020 by PolarKC

[BlatMan 711]

I would remove threat segregation and hide threat. I would also adjust the matchmaking system so it favors matching even team numbers. If that fails, use a hidden ELO to match close enough, but still allow teams to call for backup if they have less players.

 

Backup should only be used to make the team sizes even. I hate how the current backup system will call in a group of 4 without even waiting to see if a solo player readies up. If I'm on offense I hesitate to call for backup. If I get a full group, that means the other team will then get more players, and the mission won't be able to progress.

[Acornie 490]

LO already has plans that are going into effect after the engine upgrade (and it's clear they're not touching anything before then) so this is pointless

[PolarKC 10]

15 minutes ago, Acornie said:

LO already has plans that are going into effect after the engine upgrade (and it's clear they're not touching anything before then) so this is pointless

That's fair, but good discussion about the game is always productive even if there is a plan already. Plans change or need to be reinforced by the community. Do you have a link btw? I miss stuff like that all the time.

[Acornie 490]

1 hour ago, PolarKC said:

Do you have a link btw? I miss stuff like that all the time.

At 59:00 he goes over lightly the plans with dealing with threat districts even before phasing is implemented. It's been mentioned many times that they have a plan to change threat and how it's handled but I don't know if it's been gone over anywhere in any more detail

[HighSociety 148]

4 hours ago, PolarKC said:

Remove district threat segregation... BUT only after the cross-server matchmaking system is implemented. This of course requires the engine upgrade to 3.5 to be completed.

Sure we need the engine upgrade as plattform for nearly every changes.

But at this time when u can't level up waterfront contacts as a gold Player cuz ther is no silver wf district... That was the case on EU server since last patch. 

I feel we have to get rid of it as soon™ as possible.

APB at it's state is just for us "addicted" players, ppl who really want to play it and not inviting players at all...

I mean: "hey do u want to play some APB?... ok cool, u just have to spam join district for 10min or something" 

 

So remove segregation... yesterday pls.

[Hexerin 1140]

They really should just remove the threat restrictions on districts at this point. With the low population we have now, it's doing more harm than good. Districts aren't filling, and what little people are online are being split too much apart. There's new players being loaded into empty districts, and then they just leave (probably forever) because they obviously can't find any opp to fight.

 

Or we can continue to sit here pretending like there aren't more golds in bronze than in silver, like certain... special people... on this forum keep trying to perpetuate.

[Spy 152]

12 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

They really should just remove the threat restrictions on districts at this point. With the low population we have now, it's doing more harm than good.

With the failing AC in mind, legit people want fair fights and in the current cheat detection state the game is in right now it's perfectly understandable to keep threat restrictions as they are right now. There's absolutely no point in forcing legit paying customers into servers with 3rd party crapware users. Besides that, it's bad economics, getting hammered over and over again will lead to even lower population instead of spending any irl cash.

 

I for example bought 4 games during the Steam summer sale eventho I love to have a few Armas items from the store, but to me it's pointless in the current state of APB.

 

 

Edited July 10, 2020 by Spy

[Queen of Love 452]

Free2cheat plus absurd segregation is a toxic system.

This creates toxicity community,and nobody likes stay around cheaters ,dethreaters and consecutive raging legits. 

[xHenryman90x 129]

40 minutes ago, Spy said:

With the failing AC in mind, legit people want fair fights and in the current cheat detection state the game is in right now it's perfectly understandable to keep threat restrictions as they are right now. There's absolutely no point in forcing legit paying customers into servers with 3rd party crapware users.

 

 

Everyone can dethreat, including the cheaters, cheating and exploiting threat system go hand to hand.

[MrChan 337]

I said at least 4 years ago that threat should be hidden and auto-join enforced to put people with broadly the same threat as each other.

 

This would result in:

- More difficulty dethreating since you can't track your threat loss, or intentionally join a Bronze district once you've gone from Gold to Silver

- Less point in intentionally dropping to Green threat so you can show off your R255 Green symbol as some class of achievement

- Less threat 'obsession', such as giving up before a shot is fired, Gold players trying to remove Silver players from their team etc.

- Better in-district matchmaking

 

Sadly, I think the playerbase has declined to the point that enforcing auto-join isn't viable anymore, but hiding threat is still an option. Obviously, hiding threat without auto-join would require removal of district segregation, since you can't see threat. We'd still possibly achieve nos. 1 - 3.

Edited July 10, 2020 by MrChan

[Spy 152]

4 hours ago, xHenryman90x said:

cheating and exploiting threat system go hand to hand.

Dethreathing will be a lot less (if not gone) if cheaters aren't around in the servers legits play on, everybody knows that. With that said, if the average legits are in lower servers then the high legits will face cheaters more often. I can understand why the high legits want the threat segregation gone, easy targets here we come... Unfortunately this will never work because forcing low legits to play against high rank (regardless if they cheat or not) will lead to depopulation and APB will die even faster.

 

 

Edited July 10, 2020 by Spy

[KnifuWaifu 499]

9 hours ago, Acornie said:

At 59:00 he goes over lightly the plans with dealing with threat districts even before phasing is implemented. It's been mentioned many times that they have a plan to change threat and how it's handled but I don't know if it's been gone over anywhere in any more detail

I love how the freeze-frame for the stream is at one of the cutest parts. *"Did I get one?"* XD

 

Anyway, I'm keen for Matt's changes to threat, and by "changes" I mean phasing and finally letting matchmaking do it's thing with the most of the population as it was intended. But I am heaps a fan of the "moving players off server when they become too high threat for the current server" idea. I think these two systems working together are going to resolve a lot of threat/matchmaking issues we all like to create new threads over. 

[Spy 152]

8 minutes ago, KnifuWaifu said:

But I am heaps a fan of the "moving players off server when they become too high threat for the current server" idea. I think these two systems working together are going to resolve a lot of threat/matchmaking issues we all like to create new threads over. 

If it prevents moving exploiting preset groups (2 high gold + 2 low bronze) to lower disctricts then I'm fine with it, asuming that not a single player can be moved from a group to a new district.

 

 

Edited July 10, 2020 by Spy

[CookiePuss 5378]

Feels a little weird to talk about since all of this is already going to happen.

[HighSociety 148]

1 hour ago, Spy said:

I can understand why the high legits want the threat segregation gone, easy targets here we come...

I'm legit (mid-high) silver... just going gold cuz bronce district is too easy.

when i face real golds i get pushed back down to silver.

most of the "gold" players u see nowadays are ment to be silver

That's a problem of population.

1 hour ago, Spy said:

forcing low legits to play against high rank

So u wanna play only with low threat players? Than u'll play alone at one point.

Also dunno what rank has to do with threat?

43 minutes ago, CookiePuss said:

Feels a little weird to talk about since all of this is already going to happen.

Yea but when? Q1 2014? Tomorrow? In 2 Years?

I just can't level my chars NOW...

So why don't open the districts and set all threat color codes to white or something NOW? 

 

Dunno what u think about it cookie...

But i know people not playing cuz of the problems made by threat segregation.

I am also one of them sometimes.

Edited July 10, 2020 by HighSociety

[CookiePuss 5378]

1 hour ago, HighSociety said:

I just can't level my chars NOW...

So why don't open the districts and set all threat color codes to white or something NOW? 

 

Dunno what u think about it cookie...

But i know people not playing cuz of the problems made by threat segregation.

I am also one of them sometimes.

That's super frustrating for all of us I think, and I understand your suggestion may be a solution.

Im more worried about consequences.

I'm around an average skilled player, and even I don't want to fight bronzies. That's not going to be fun for anyone.

 

I don't know which of us is right, but that's how I feel about it.

 

 

 

Edited July 10, 2020 by CookiePuss

[HighSociety 148]

36 minutes ago, CookiePuss said:

 

I don't know which of us is right, but that's how I feel about it

We both are! I don't wont to fight them either but i want to fight anyone at least

Edited July 10, 2020 by HighSociety

[MACKxBOLAN 431]

I would vote for removing the Threat visibility. 

 I've said this since My beginning.

When I was a Youngster I was more afraid of the silver with the knife symbol than a gold, cause it looks menacing.

However the Gold has always been visually irritating to look at, especially if they are grouping n there is a car full of them. 

 Not to mention that Silver is not silver, its White

[Kiida 455]

Removing visible threat will never be the answer.

1. Revert the mission system to how it was pre-2013 - this would mean the removal of mission points to start with. Too many achieve gold simply by doing mission objectives.
2. Reintroduce negatives for playing in a district below your own threat (25% less cash/50% less standing, no role progression)
3. Take players who haven't logged in for a certain amount of time from the threat pool (3+ or 6+ months) OR reset threat for everyone on a seasonal basis.

I have been suggesting the above on these threat threads since 2014.

[Acornie 490]

6 hours ago, KnifuWaifu said:

I am heaps a fan of the "moving players off server when they become too high threat for the current server" idea. I think these two systems working together are going to resolve a lot of threat/matchmaking issues we all like to create new threads over. 

It's a very good idea in theory, but I still have a concern that it will be an optional prompt of "let us move so you can get better matchmaking :3" that people can say no to and stay being a nuisance like dethreaters are currently, or that low ranks won't click it not knowing what it is and stay in the wrong district

[RCooper 182]

idk about threat segregation but rank and threat display is important becuase it is a core element of the game just imagine CSGO or LOL not having ranks,it is neccesaty it makes the game more enjoyable and fun to play

[PolarKC 10]

3 hours ago, RCooper said:

idk about threat segregation but rank and threat display is important becuase it is a core element of the game just imagine CSGO or LOL not having ranks,it is neccesaty it makes the game more enjoyable and fun to play

This is not an eSport. The ranks aren't accurate representations of relative skill anyway, all they do is give people false perceptions of how well matched they are to their opponents.

[Flaws 1033]

Oh no, neither of the options are good. Did we already forget how bad the matchmaking was when we had no threat segragation and silvers got even more bullied by actual good players (not even dethreaters) meanwhile the good players just kept quitting for the day after 5 consecutive missions against bronzes and trainees because of how dreadfully boring and awful the game was? Absolutely no removing the already barely functioning matchmaking system. It will be detrimental to the game as new players will get deterred from APB 10x times more and so will veterans who just can't get opp that is worth their time.

 

Keeping everything as it is is also a really poor choice because its only half-functional. Everyone is basically playing in the wrong districts and matchmaking is still messed up regardless.

 

What we need is phasing + making gold more difficult to achieve, maybe even forcing some low golds down to silver when it comes to it, depending on how they scale it and make them work for gold after said changes have taken effect (if they have what it takes). Make all threat levels have players for them so the system can correctly indicate skill level. Now and for many years back, its been easier to be silver/gold than it is to be green/bronze and that truly speaks for itself. Gold needs to mean something and silver shouldn't indicate that you are simply bad, which it realistically currently does because you can't even get gold (no offense). Its really easy to be gold if you've played for years, assuming you don't play at sub 60fps stable or you don't have anything major getting in your way of course. We all know that there are golds and there are golds. Some golds don't even come close to scratching the surface of the amount of skill and experience other golds have and that is only one of the major issues.