DISCUSSION: Weapon balance changes to LIVE and IR3 on the Fang

[Noob_Guardian 417]

Fang Discussion

I own the fang and agree it needs reworked so here's my thoughts on what you've said.

 

By the looks of it, the entire RFP line is getting accuracy and range changes. Now, we are talking about putting HS 3 on a now 15m - 30m pistol. I don't think that's a good idea. While I agree that it feels too strong because of its current range, you are already nerfing the range by 10m.

 

I think the FANG, RSA, and ACT got accuracy buffs is that correct? (Though the fang got a worse accuracy modifier at 10m, which is now worse than the fbw's)

 

HS3 may "then" be needed simply to counteract that modifier, but then it'll function as a worse current "base" rfp because of accuracy, range, and damage changes.

 

It's a tough call honestly. Gimp its strafing accuracy and ability just so it resembles a decent in marksman "current" rfp? I honestly can't say that's the way it should go, seems counter intuitive to gimp it further like that simply so it can be "decent" in marksman mode.

 

in which case

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I might suggest mobility sling or 3 point sling.

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- (I had not tested the RFP changes, so I'm only going off what I'm seeing stat wise and past experience with the weapon) -

 

 

[GhosT 1301]

Oooooo, RFP and Low Yield changes going to live. Very awesome.

 

 

Regarding the Fang mod swap, I see where you're coming from and why you chose HS3, but it's not really a practical mod as the gun is already very accurate and doesn't need it, it also kind of destroys its hipfire accuracy.

 

Considering the gun has a scope on it, IR3 made sense. So does HS3 or even RS3, but the gun doesn't need these mods at all, nor do they really help in the first place. And don't even think about High Magnification Scope, lol.

None of the other mods are really worth it to chose from either. This is a tough one.

[LilyV3 323]

The act and RSA changes are nice, maybe finally the act 44 will hit stuff ^^

[vsb 6170]

7 minutes ago, GhosT said:

Considering the gun has a visual sight mod on it, a barrel mod made sense.

??????

 

just put mob sling on it 

[GhosT 1301]

4 minutes ago, Solamente said:

??????

 

just put mob sling on it 

 

Meh, you could say the sight gave you a clearer picture and zoom that helped you to hit targets further away.

Doesn't make much sense inside of APB where it's a barrel mod, but a scope helps you to gain more range irl.

 

Not too sure about Mobility Sling as strafing speed is already rather fast without it.

 

Edited September 30, 2019 by GhosT

[owzzy 179]

R-2 Harbinger needs some serious attention. Literally the worst gun in the game.

[Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 269]

2 hours ago, MattScott said:

Min Damage Range: 25m -> 15m

You should really call this damage dropoff range

[vsb 6170]

5 minutes ago, GhosT said:

 

Meh, you could say the sight gave you a clearer picture and zoom that helped you to hit targets further away.

Doesn't make much sense inside of APB where it's a barrel mod, but a scope helps you to gain more range irl.

 

Not too sure about Mobility Sling as strafing speed is already rather fast without it.

 

there’s no other mod that would really work other than tagger

[GhosT 1301]

5 minutes ago, Solamente said:

there’s no other mod that would really work other than tagger

 

Yeah, hence why I said tough one.

[vsb 6170]

2 minutes ago, GhosT said:

 

Yeah, hence why I said tough one.

that’s not very tough, there are two options and preset tagger mods are “reserved” for legendaries (vladivostok excluded)

[Bloo 43]

Looks good, can't wait for shotgun changes!

[Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 269]

Who's ready for 3 stk pump shotguns?

[CookiePuss 5373]

3 minutes ago, Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 said:

Who's ready for 3 stk pump shotguns?

[CommandantSteele 52]

Controversial idea time:

 

The fang is a major problem in that as it exists it warps the game around it, but changing it to anything else essentially just destroys the gun or is entirely pointless.

 

Well... Why not just go with the practical thing and delete it?

 

If it can never be good without warping the game, then maybe it should just go? I'm reminded explicitly of League of Legends, in specific of champions designed by CertainlyT. They're frequently loaded with so many passive abilities and other gimmicks that having the champion be "good" means that the champion is brokenly overpowered, and thus for the champion to be "balanced" they have to basically suck.

 

The Fang feels the same way. If it's "good" that means it's destroying the secondary balance. If it's "balanced" that means that the Fang is awful.

 

I would personally favor deleting it and giving the option of a G1C refund or picking something else out from ARMAS. If it's going to be this problematic why not just be rid of it?

 

And yes I'm against removing content from the game, but being honest... We're not losing much. We still have several other RFP variants that aren't problematic and losing one variant that is problematic to balance doesn't mean we're losing out on the RFP as a whole. So deleting the Fang is fine to me.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Freewind

[GhosT 1301]

 

15 minutes ago, Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 said:

Who's ready for 3 stk pump shotguns?

 

I can't wait for them to ruin shotguns even more, especially the non-pump shotguns that have to gain another shot to kill too.

[Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 269]

1 minute ago, GhosT said:

 

 

I can't wait for them to ruin shotguns even more, especially the non-pump shotguns that have to gain another shot to kill too.

Wasn't it just the nfas and Ogre that was being made into a 4 stk? Nothing is happening to the shredder or dow afaik

[SkittyM 287]

55 minutes ago, Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 said:

You should really call this damage dropoff range

Min Damage Range is correct though.  25 > 15m just refers to the distance between dropoff start/end.

[GhosT 1301]

9 minutes ago, Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 said:

Wasn't it just the nfas and Ogre that was being made into a 4 stk? Nothing is happening to the shredder or dow afaik

 

What a way to nerf those two into the abyss.

 

Can't we just revert shotguns and slightly buff the shredder?

Pre-LO shotguns were the most balanced weapon category. :(

[Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 269]

8 minutes ago, SkittyM said:

Min Damage Range is correct though.  25 > 15m just refers to the distance between dropoff start/end.

To each their own

[vsb 6170]

38 minutes ago, Freewind said:

Well... Why not just go with the practical thing and delete it?

because it’s easier to change the preset mod to mob sling than it is to potentially refund thousands of dollars or handle an extra surge of “exchange for x” support tickets?

 

theres nothing practical about straight up deleting a gun even when it’s not as easy to balance as the fang

[LilyRain 669]

1 hour ago, SkittyM said:

What?  There's an ACT 44 with HS3, an ACT 44 with CJ3, FR0G Kokoe with 3PS3, N-FA 9 with 3PS3, and an RFP-9 with EM3.  Also a S-AS PDW with mobsling and an RSA with HMS.  The problem isn't Tier 3 mods on secondaries but more what mod you put on what gun.  IR3 on something like the RFP-9 is hilariously strong since it already has range and lacks a notable downside.

These are not the norm as they were ARMAS exclusives till Little Orbit decided to add ARMAS weapons to the Joker Store. At the present moment, not even half of these exist in the Joker Store. Contacts do not sell tier2+ modded secondaries let alone ones with tier3 or R195+ unique mods (they don't offer an RFP with IR1 nor HS1 either). Although not as advantageous as the Fang, most of the secondaries you mentioned are still behind paywalls.

 

Like Matt said: "We have been making a strong effort to balance the P2W aspects of the game, and unfortunately the Fang is one of those outliers that needs to be addressed."

 

It is indeed a flaw to give ir3 to the Fang, but if every ARMAS-weapon was added to the Joker Store prior, the Fang wouldn't currently be pay-2-win nor an immediate problem. High-tier mods were given to secondaries in order to make them attractive for purchase from ARMAS (Fang included) & this is exactly what LO is fighting to reverse. LO isn't obligated to walk on the path its predecessors did nor it should follow every idea they had. If LO has no future-plans to have upcoming-Contacts sell secondaries with tier2+ mods or even open-slot secondaries, then giving the Fang (or any other ARMAS-secondary) a high-tier mod such as HS3 is an inconsistent solution to what they are trying to achieve.

 

Pertaining to the Fang-discussion initiated by Matt, swapping IR3 with HS3 conflicts with the fact that LO nerfed the RFP's performance outside marksman aim. Eliminating pay-2-win is the goal, but replacing it with pay-2-get underperforming weapons isn't great nor fair either. A problem shouldn't be fixed by swapping it with another problem. At the present moment, I still believe that giving the Fang a unique-tagger-mod is far more gentle than HS3.

[Noob_Guardian 417]

4 hours ago, LilyV3 said:

The act and RSA changes are nice, maybe finally the act 44 will hit stuff ^^

the act suffers the same hitreg issues as the star, so i doubt it. "aims 6 shots right on and misses" "bullets appear outside of reticule" wtf

[Noob_Guardian 417]

2 hours ago, Lily Rain said:

These are not the norm as they were ARMAS exclusives till Little Orbit decided to add ARMAS weapons to the Joker Store. At the present moment, not even half of these exist in the Joker Store. Contacts do not sell tier2+ modded secondaries let alone ones with tier3 or R195+ unique mods (they don't offer an RFP with IR1 nor HS1 either). Although not as advantageous as the Fang, most of the secondaries you mentioned are still behind paywalls.

 

Like Matt said: "We have been making a strong effort to balance the P2W aspects of the game, and unfortunately the Fang is one of those outliers that needs to be addressed."

 

It is indeed a flaw to give ir3 to the Fang, but if every ARMAS-weapon was added to the Joker Store prior, the Fang wouldn't currently be pay-2-win nor an immediate problem. High-tier mods were given to secondaries in order to make them attractive for purchase from ARMAS (Fang included) & this is exactly what LO is fighting to reverse. LO isn't obligated to walk on the path its predecessors did nor it should follow every idea they had. If LO has no future-plans to have upcoming-Contacts sell secondaries with tier2+ mods or even open-slot secondaries, then giving the Fang (or any other ARMAS-secondary) a high-tier mod such as HS3 is an inconsistent solution to what they are trying to achieve.

 

Pertaining to the Fang-discussion initiated by Matt, swapping IR3 with HS3 conflicts with the fact that LO nerfed the RFP's performance outside marksman aim. Eliminating pay-2-win is the goal, but replacing it with pay-2-get underperforming weapons isn't great nor fair either. A problem shouldn't be fixed by swapping it with another problem. At the present moment, I still believe that giving the Fang a unique-tagger-mod is far more gentle than HS3.

To be honest though, the act itself without hs3 is practically unusable, so i'm glad for the buff. Hopefully it doesn't overbuff the goldplate one, but since it's got a high ttk (1.5s), it'd be hard to claim it's op unlike the RFP which had the same ttk as an fbw (1.05). The act is already outclassed by all primaries due to ttk anyways. Hopefully it doesn't get touched since it's like the only T3 mod secondary aside from NFA? Which isn't broken and "somewhat decent". (even if behind a paywall, i'd be all for making it jokerstore if it isnt already)

 

Tagger wouldn't be a bad idea honestly, and it would indeed be more gently than HS which would ruin the gun's cqc capabilities.

 

 

Edited October 1, 2019 by Noob_Guardian

[Nanometic 265]

35 minutes ago, Noob_Guardian said:

To be honest though, the act itself without hs3 is practically unusable, so i'm glad for the buff. Hopefully it doesn't overbuff the goldplate one, but since it's got a high ttk (1.5s), it'd be hard to claim it's op unlike the RFP which had the same ttk as an fbw (1.05). The act is already outclassed by all primaries due to ttk anyways. Hopefully it doesn't get touched since it's like the only T3 mod secondary aside from NFA? Which isn't broken and "somewhat decent". (even if behind a paywall, i'd be all for making it jokerstore if it isnt already)

 

Tagger wouldn't be a bad idea honestly, and it would indeed be more gently than HS which would ruin the gun's cqc capabilities.

 

 

FBW is 1 second TTK flat. The nano is 1.05.

[bumrush79 15]

 

I wouldn't mind reflex3 on the RFP-9 'fang' to give the 'showstopper' shotgun revolver some competition, to be honest.  all of the secondaries in APB were designed to have some sort of hipfire capability, and the RFP-9 had a few rounds of nerfs that went overboard in removing its hipfire ability. 

 

part of the reason the RFP9 is used so much is the balance is so dismal with the other guns.  I'm not so sure little orbit understands balance.  For example, the last time G1 touched the ACT44 was to change the marksman modifier from .68-.63 (+5%). 

 

Giving the ACT44 +12% accuracy is way too heavy-handed.  Giving the RSA more accuracy also further pushes the 3-4 shot-to-kill snipers (DMR,ISSA-b,NCR,Oblivion) into a weird position. 

 

I wonder if other guns are even considered when balancing? But alas, I'm sure the design team is beyond reason.  The IR3 nerfs from before led me to believe that APB would regress into alpha status.

 

if LO wants to wow me try to release a balance patch such as this:

SNR pistol- Marksman Modifier 0.90->0.80

FR0G pistol- Dropoff Range 10 m->20m

Joker RFP-9- Dropoff Range 40m->30m

SAS-PDW- Accuracy Radius at 10m 35.5 cm->33cm

N-FA 9- Accuracy Radius at 10m 40 cm->36cm

R-2 'Harbinger' Marksman Modifier 0.20->0.40

R-2 'Harbinger' Recovery Delay 0.450->0.150
 

This would give players a reason to use something other than FBW/C45/RFP9. 

 

All I'm getting at is the problem with the RFP-9 is systemic and also has to do with the fact that many of the other items available are underperforming and/or lackluster.

 

Also @mattscott I didn't mean to hurt your feelings because I used a quote to make a meme.  Ples forgif.  And if you really love APB:Reloaded, release it under the GPLv3.

Edited October 1, 2019 by bumrush79
typos