Can some one point me to where it states that Name/cheat shamming is against the rules.

[Omega101 16]

I am trying to find where it is stated. I know in game you will hear players and DM's (yest they exist, just that white whales are spotted more often than DMs) state that I is banable as it is against the code of conduct. A group of us playing on FG  were having a discussion on cheaters and I made the comment that in APB you are not allowed to point out cheaters as it is against the COC. The DM stated that, that was the stupidest thing he had ever heard and that I was making it up, then he bet me a +3 shield.

I have looked at the eula and the COC and can not find where name/cheater shaming is listed.  So if some one can point out or give me  link please do so.

Tks

 

 

I know it is in the forum rules, I am looking for the in game rule.

Edited June 23, 2019 by Omega101

[Mitne 724]

Checked EULA for such keywords. No, there are no mentions of name shaming, unless name is used in defamatory way (on cars etc.) <- then it's considered harrasment.

[Bambola 379]

Unfortunately, I doubt anyone can, Naming/Shaming is exclusively a Forum rule, although calling someone out publicly in the game for cheating based just on the assumption should be a normative, moral rule, it causes more harm than good and was one of the reasons for APB's not so good reputation. 

 

 

[mtz 496]

Based on the copy of the APB EULA available on the GamersFirst site [ (link) ], the 9th section titled Rules of Conduct has the answer.

 

Quote

9.2 You acknowledge that the rules set out in this condition 9 are non-exhaustive and that Little Orbit reserves the right to determine in its absolute discretion what conduct it considers inappropriate in relation to the Game. Little Orbit further reserves its right to exercise any or all of its rights (without prejudice to any other rights or remedies it may have) set out in condition 13 below, including the right to permanently remove User Generated Content and/or terminate a GamersFirst Account in respect of your use of the Game.

Emphasis mine.

Quote

9.4 You shall not (and you agree to not) generate any User Generated Content, or use the Game in a way, that:

Quote

9.4.3 in Little Orbit's absolute discretion, Little Orbit considers:

(a) is defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, harmful, abusive, harassing, hateful, invasive of another's privacy, sexually explicit, or offensive (whether in relation to race, sex, religion or otherwise) or denigrating to anyone's reputation or general standing (whether or not actionable);

Emphasis mine.

 

I hate cheaters as much as the next guy, but the way I see it, turning into an angry mob helps no one. Inform LO, let them handle the issue, don't give the cheaters any publicity.

[Omega101 16]

So the bottom line is that pointing out actual cheaters in game is not a bannable act. Darn, guess not shield for me.

Also I have never see a mob form because of a cheater being called out, as the rest of the dist will usually agree that the cheater is, and simply state "welcome the APB, cheaters are part of the game"

 

[mtz 496]

14 minutes ago, Omega101 said:

So the bottom line is that pointing out actual cheaters in game is not a bannable act.

...but it is bannable*, as evidenced by those quotes. Even if you somehow assume that forum rules and game rules can prohibit something in one place but not the other, the End User License Agreement states that you are not allowed to use the game (so, among other things, talk in the game) to defame another player or incite hatred towards them regardless of circumstances. It is also left to Little Orbit to decide if the rules are being broken; they have the final say in terms of what is allowed in their game. Which is, y'know, normal for pretty much any company out there.

 

*though how well this is being enforced is a different topic.

[vsb 6171]

if hackusating was bannable ingame 90% of the population would have been banned from apb in 2011

[Mitne 724]

51 minutes ago, MartinPL said:

9.2 You acknowledge that the rules set out in this condition 9 are non-exhaustive and that Little Orbit reserves the right to determine in its absolute discretion what conduct it considers inappropriate in relation to the Game. Little Orbit further reserves its right to exercise any or all of its rights (without prejudice to any other rights or remedies it may have) set out in condition 13 below, including the right to permanently remove User Generated Content and/or terminate a GamersFirst Account in respect of your use of the Game.

That can be applicable to anything.

LO that way could said "Hey let's ban half of population" - then this allows them.

51 minutes ago, MartinPL said:

9.4 You shall not (and you agree to not) generate any User Generated Content, or use the Game in a way, that:

 

9.4.3 in Little Orbit's absolute discretion, Little Orbit considers:

(a) is defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, harmful, abusive, harassing, hateful, invasive of another's privacy, sexually explicit, or offensive (whether in relation to race, sex, religion or otherwise) or denigrating to anyone's reputation or general standing (whether or not actionable);

Keyword "User Generated Content or use the Game" - in other words if I would create car which would had label "MartinPL cheats" then it falls under that rule, as well as if during playing I would do somehow discredit you. Problem is this section include any feature game offers NOT in-game chat - to prove my point I pulled one EULA points with keyword "chat":

Quote

2. Use racial, ethnic, or religious slurs in game, chat rooms, and forums.

As you can see chat is treated in this EULA seperate from game.

Furthermore harrasment policy states that:

Quote

What is considered harassment/griefing?

Harassment or griefing consists of flagrant misuse and abuse of game mechanics with the intention of distressing and offending other players. So what's a game mechanic? Game mechanics allow players to interact with the world and each other. For example, the ability to ram cars is a mechanic. The ability to place objects in front of objectives is a mechanic. Use of game mechanics like these is by no means considered harassment in and of itself. The key to determining whether the mechanic is being misused or abused is to determine "intent". What was the person trying to achieve through their actions? Were they purposefully trying to disrupt someone else's game? While an action may cause others distress, it is not considered harassment until it is determined by APB Reloaded that it was done to intentionally cause distress or to offend other players.

"Offensive words" get treatment of /ignore and report to see if above EULA wasn't broken.

 

So yeah. I don't think it's that crystal clear, that's why I avoided this sections.

[mtz 496]

57 minutes ago, Mitne said:

That can be applicable to anything.

LO that way could said "Hey let's ban half of population" - then this allows them.

Which they won't, because most end user license agreements are just a lot of lawyer-speak that protects the company from fraud and other damages that may incur from abuse from their consumers - if you don't act maliciously towards the company, you have practically no reason to fear anything from them. Expecting the company to just lash out one day and ban half of their consumers for no reason is... a bit silly of a thought, don't you think?

Plus, as I've said in this thread already, this is normal in the industry. Most EULAs in the video game industry outright mention that the companies reserve the right to ban you for any reason or no reason. For example, Warframe does that, and Warframe is fairly big, and nobody is complaining about that in their EULA.

 

57 minutes ago, Mitne said:

Keyword "User Generated Content or use the Game" - in other words if I would create car which would had label "MartinPL cheats" then it falls under that rule, as well as if during playing I would do somehow discredit you. Problem is this section include any feature game offers NOT in-game chat - to prove my point I pulled one EULA points with keyword "chat": [...] As you can see chat is treated in this EULA seperate from game.

I have to say, "the in-game chat is not part of the game" is probably my favourite take on the EULA at the moment.

It's pretty fair to assume that the term "chat rooms" refers to the chatting feature in APB. When you are in an instance, you are connected to its District chat, which is only accessible to players connected to the instance at the moment - which is pretty much how a chat room works.

EDIT: On that note... do you really think you're not generating content when you talk in chat? The term "User Generated Content" doesn't refer to customized in-game content - it literally refers to whatever is created by you in the game. It can be a shirt design, it can be an arrangement of sounds in the Music Studio, it can be speech you post to APB servers.

 

Also, what about this part?

Quote

[...] You acknowledge that the rules set out in this condition 9 are non-exhaustive [...]

In simple terms, "things listed here are not meant to be the list of the only things you can/can't do, because humans are assholes and they will look for ways to skirt any rules they find". I'm afraid it wouldn't be as easy to break the rules as harass someone and say "this exact type of harassment I committed isn't forbidden by ToS/CoC/EULA!".

 

EDIT because I forgot:

57 minutes ago, Mitne said:

"Offensive words" get treatment of /ignore and report to see if above EULA wasn't broken.

The section you quoted above this sentence says nothing about "offensive words". What it does talk about, though, are interactions between players. You really don't need me to tell you that conversations count as player interaction; it's not limited to clothes and cars you customize.

Edited June 23, 2019 by MartinPL

[Thial 176]

You can talk about whatever you want as long as it's not harassment or you are not overly toxic. Otherwise it would be infringing on the freedom of speech. Simple as that.

[Sayori 311]

Some of the mods* are just a meme.

I got 2 days ban for naming and shaming without actually used anyone's name but vague descriptions. 

Or when I got a post with picture removed but 5 other posts with pictures above weren't...and no picture wasn't offensive or anything and totally on topic.

Worse than in G1 times.

 

edit:

* - community volunteers.

Edited June 23, 2019 by Sayori

[CookiePuss 5378]

The worst Ive seen in game is a player being silenced my a GM because they continued to hackusate after repeatedly being asked not to.

 

Also, and for me this is the most important thing to remember: Literally no one wants to listen to you complain about cheaters in /d chat. Literally no one.

 

You are also having no impact on whether or not the player you are hackusating gets banned. All you are doing is annoying other players, and spreading paranoia about the number of cheaters in the game.

 

-If you get a cheater, just /report and move on.

-Do not give cheaters the attention they crave.

 

 

P.S. I don't fault you for getting mad when forced to play against cheaters... we've all been there.

[Omega101 16]

So basically as long as you do not create a tag that lists  a player(s) as a cheat and spray a tag it is not bannable.

 

I had shown the forum rules to the Dm. his response was: that is not saying you cant call someone a cheater, also thats on a forum not in game.  "no soup for you." 

 

MartinPL, The post really does not have anything, as offensive is not defined.  I find it offensive when a player pulls next to me blasting crap music and has ear bleed kill themes.  thus, pointing out cheaters is not harassment or offensive (except to the cheater)

 

And when a cheater is pointed out in dist, i will check when playing with or against them. Then (depending on the type of cheat) I will /report them and tell the team I am not going to feed the cheat, so I abandon the mission so the team can have a chance to have a counter cheat get called in as backup.  What I find offensive are players that will simply stay in the match and simple run away so as not to feed the cheat, they do not realize that  not fighting and not abandoning the mission is in its self cheating.

 

What I need is a hard ruling some where that states that pointing out a cheater in game, in dist, is a bannable offence. 

 

[mtz 496]

13 minutes ago, Omega101 said:

So basically as long as you do not create a tag that lists  a player(s) as a cheat and spray a tag it is not bannable.

Wrong assumption.

6 hours ago, MartinPL said:

The term "User Generated Content" doesn't refer to customized in-game content - it literally refers to whatever is created by you in the game. It can be a shirt design, it can be an arrangement of sounds in the Music Studio, it can be speech you post to APB servers.

 

===

 

13 minutes ago, Omega101 said:

The post really does not have anything, as offensive is not defined.  I find it offensive when a player pulls next to me blasting crap music and has ear bleed kill themes.  thus, pointing out cheaters is not harassment or offensive (except to the cheater) 

Wrong assumption.

Quote

9.4 You shall not (and you agree to not) generate any User Generated Content, or use the Game in a way, that:

Quote

9.4.3 in Little Orbit's absolute discretion, Little Orbit considers:

(a) is defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, harmful, abusive, harassing, hateful, invasive of another's privacy, sexually explicit, or offensive (whether in relation to race, sex, religion or otherwise) or denigrating to anyone's reputation or general standing (whether or not actionable);

 

===

 

13 minutes ago, Omega101 said:

What I need is a hard ruling some where that states that pointing out a cheater in game, in dist, is a bannable offence. 

Quote

9.2 You acknowledge that the rules set out in this condition 9 are non-exhaustive and that Little Orbit reserves the right to determine in its absolute discretion what conduct it considers inappropriate in relation to the Game. Little Orbit further reserves its right to exercise any or all of its rights (without prejudice to any other rights or remedies it may have) set out in condition 13 below, including the right to permanently remove User Generated Content and/or terminate a GamersFirst Account in respect of your use of the Game.

 

Actually, allow me to ask: why do you think that something forbidden on the game's forums would be permitted in the game itself?

Edited June 23, 2019 by MartinPL

[vsb 6171]

17 minutes ago, Omega101 said:

players that will simply stay in the match and simple run away so as not to feed the cheat, they do not realize that  not fighting and not abandoning the mission is in its self cheating

congratulations on writing the dumbest sentence i've seen all day

 

17 minutes ago, Omega101 said:

And when a cheater is pointed out in dist, i will check when playing with or against them. Then (depending on the type of cheat) I will /report them and tell the team I am not going to feed the cheat, so I abandon the mission

this is exactly why name and shame is frowned upon

[Omega101 16]

13 hours ago, MartinPL said:

Wrong assumption.

Please show me the written rule, as your assumption  that i am making an assumption is lacking. 

 

===

Again there is not a specific rule stating that pointing out cheaters in game is bannable. and that goes to my point that creating a tag listing cheats can be. 

 

Wrong assumption.

"it can be an arrangement of sounds in the Music Studio" how can it be the wrong assumption when you use the exact example of what I find offensive to prove, but instead reinforce my point?

 

===

keep in mind that all of the examples listed are applicable only if not true.    When you hear a sub 18 voice over Vchat and you call them a kid, it is not libel as they are a kid, it is not defamation as they are a kid and showing that they are a kid by their actions.  By the same token pointing out a cheater does not proc any of that list as point out the truth is , pointing out the truth. 

 

Actually, allow me to ask: why do you think that something forbidden on the game's forums would be permitted in the game itself?

Yes, because forums are for anyone typically. APB is an 18+ game so the standards would not be the same.  What is allowed in game may not be allow on a forum, that is typical.  For example I will get Tee bagged in game but that would not be allowed on the forum. In game rules are a lot looser than forum rules and thats in any game.

 

 

Merged.

 

13 hours ago, Glaciers said:

congratulations on writing the dumbest sentence i've seen all day

How? you do understand that bannable cheats are botting, exploiting, greifing, as well as hacking.  Not fighting/running away from the teams objective is griefing, look it up.

fighting against certain types of botters is not a sure loss as well as fighting with/against griefers and exploiters.

Now fighting with other types of botters and hackers is a no win senerio so you should, /report abandon as just staying in the match and moving away fro combat is griefing.

please explain how name and shame would be frowned upon?  when we get OP i look at load out of the enemy team and tell the team watch out x is using a voc, y is using rockets, z uses his car bomb. thus allowing players to adjust tactics for the battle. When some on says that  X1 is a botter/hack/exploit/grief i adjust my load out to say a GL so that I do not need LOS to kill the enemy.  Or hear that Z1 is a grief so will adjust my playstyle as we will not be getting aid from Z1.  

 

How is gaining tactical information on the team/enemy an issue to be frowned on?

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

[vsb 6171]

1 minute ago, Omega101 said:

please explain how name and shame would be frowned upon?

because player A has claimed that player B is cheating, you quit a mission - if other players start quitting as well then player B will experience subpar gameplay, worst case scenario they just stop playing apb for x amount of time

 

6 minutes ago, Omega101 said:

you do understand that bannable cheats are botting, exploiting, greifing, as well as hacking.  Not fighting/running away from the teams objective is griefing, look it up.

in this case griefing is not cheating, as no unfair advantage is being gained over the opponent

 

btw if you're the moron who spams "team watch then /report player x" in district then you arent fit determine anyone but goat level silent aimers are cheating

[NotZombieBiscuit 3146]

41 minutes ago, Glaciers said:

because player A has claimed that player B is cheating, you quit a mission - if other players start quitting as well then player B will experience subpar gameplay, worst case scenario they just stop playing apb for x amount of time

 

in this case griefing is not cheating, as no unfair advantage is being gained over the opponent

 

btw if you're the moron who spams "team watch then /report player x" in district then you arent fit determine anyone but goat level silent aimers are cheating

"Team watch and report X" is so overused to the point of a meme by now that anytime i see it used I just assume it is irony.

[vsb 6171]

2 minutes ago, NotZombieBiscuit said:

"Team watch and report X" is so overused to the point of a meme by now that anytime i see it used I just assume it is irony.

yeah i'd like to give the benefit of the doubt but the last time i saw someone use it they wanted to report a bronze i had seen go hard negative a few missions beforehand

[NotZombieBiscuit 3146]

10 minutes ago, Glaciers said:

yeah i'd like to give the benefit of the doubt but the last time i saw someone use it they wanted to report a bronze i had seen go hard negative a few missions beforehand

Fuck, even I use it ironically to shitpost. So I assume lots of others do too.

[Acornie 490]

Kinda hurts my feefees when someone is legit mad and hackuastes my dumpatootie, blindpatootie, potato-aim-patootie, ngl

 

Edited June 24, 2019 by Acornie
Gotta censor, I put bad wordz

[Fortune Runner 796]

1 hour ago, Omega101 said:

please explain how name and shame would be frowned upon?

No one needs toxic hackusation attitudes like the days of G1 when it became so hostile that no one could play for fun anymore.

 

Hasn't this been talked about enough the past year to know this?

39 minutes ago, Glaciers said:

yeah i'd like to give the benefit of the doubt but the last time i saw someone use it they wanted to report a bronze i had seen go hard negative a few missions beforehand

Ive had that used one me .....

For running someone over in bronze where those apt buildings are by the most popular gas station in waterfront is.

You know....the ones right across the street diagonally where its usually a lot of different missions in it and that alley type path to drive through.

or using a opgl or osmaw to kill someone...

I wish I was kidding.... *facepalm*

[Defibrillator 132]

You cant jus tell whether a player is a cheater or not.

 

Take my case i have a ping of 290ms and i play against an opponent of lower ping. He can land most of his shots on me. This is jus a comparison of a player of my skill level.

 

In case of a player who is really good with the game can simply nail me all the time. I cant simply call him a cheater and ask everyone to stop playing against him. 

 

Unless u played the game with a lower ping, good pc, X * few thousand hours, good amount of knowledge about the game, good aim u cant simply call out someone as a cheater. 

[mtz 496]

8 hours ago, Omega101 said:

Again there is not a specific rule stating that pointing out cheaters in game is bannable. and that goes to my point that creating a tag listing cheats can be. 

...we've already gone through this - it doesn't have to be literally spelled out word by word verbatim for it to be a rule. If something is banned on the game's forums, you should be able to extrapolate that the same behavior isn't wanted in the game.

Again: do you really think LO would ban certain behavior on the forums, but allow the same behavior in the game?

 

8 hours ago, Omega101 said:

"it can be an arrangement of sounds in the Music Studio" how can it be the wrong assumption when you use the exact example of what I find offensive to prove, but instead reinforce my point?

You're trying to cherrypick this really hard. The later part of literally the same sentence (which you conveniently omitted) refers to the fact that creating content (which includes sending any message in any shape or form) with malicious intent towards other players is forbidden.

I'm afraid you don't get to ignore what I'm really saying and instead pluck your ears and shout "THIS PROVES I AM RIGHT!" (which I've noticed to be a disturbing trend in this community recently).

 

8 hours ago, Omega101 said:

By the same token pointing out a cheater does not proc any of that list as point out the truth is , pointing out the truth. 

• Regardless of whether the person in question is a blatant cheater or just a suspect, publicly calling them out is literally meant to smear their opinion in the eyes of the other players. You are deliberately trying to cause damage to the reputation of the person you're accusing of cheating.
• By calling them out publicly, you give these people publicity instead of letting the company handle the situation and remove them from the game.
• Why is anyone supposed to trust your judgement? You are (rather thankfully) not the judge, nor the jury, nor the executioner here. I have no way of verifying what is your measurement of cheating, especially in a game where accusations of cheating are pretty commonplace. If confronted with your hackusation and the anticheat system's verdict, I'd be more inclined to believe that you're rage-hackusating before I'd consider the possibility that the system is wrong. (Disclaimer: inaction =/= verdict.)

 

8 hours ago, Omega101 said:

Yes, because forums are for anyone typically. APB is an 18+ game so the standards would not be the same.  What is allowed in game may not be allow on a forum, that is typical.  For example I will get Tee bagged in game but that would not be allowed on the forum. In game rules are a lot looser than forum rules and thats in any game.

I don't even have the words to describe the inanity of the sentence about teabagging.

 

Forums are, according to LO's ruling, PG-13 appropriate. This is done to prevent topics from turning into a mess where nobody discusses anything and instead everyone just hurls insults at each other all the time. It has nothing to do with age restrictions, it has everything to do with acting like a civilised human being. APB's ESRB rating (Mature 17+) has nothing to do with the rules laid out by LO. The most basic principle behind the rules, both in the game and on the forums, is "don't create a hostile environment" - and publicly throwing around accusations of cheating does just that.

 

---

 

You honestly strike me as the type of person who will go to extreme lengths to skirt the rules given to them and will later claim innocence by saying that their way of breaking the rules was not explicitly described in exact wording - even though the Terms of Service we're discussing here take specific measures to disclose that the list is non-exhaustive and you can get banned for hostile behavior not included on it.

I implore you - use common sense. If naming and shaming is forbidden on the APB Forums, why would it be allowed in the APB Game? If the rules forbid hostile behavior, and your behavior is hostile but doesn't match the exact words used in the examples on the rule list, is that behavior allowed then?

[Omega101 16]

Ok, lets go back to the beginning. what I am trying to find is simply a posted rule or a gm's statement that "name shaming in district, in game is a bannable offence. 

I want to find this as I have a vested interest in proving that it is a bannable offence. 

So far all we have are statements and opinions from other players that assert that it should be bannable, but no one as shown that it is officially.  

As far as the statements that you can not tell if some one is cheating, that is absolutely false.  Ignore the tag that shows I have been playing since RTWCB  and keep in mind that hacks are NOT the only cheat type. 

 

When a player is Botting you see it instantly,  Remember that botting  is the use of macros or anything that mimics a macro.  For example if you see a player using a quick switch bot, switching the weapon from had to hand  firing on each hand that is botting so the use of the "team watch then /report" is valid.

 

when a player is griefing you see that instantly.    When you are in a battle and see your teammate dancing with the enemy, driving away so they can leach or otherwise refusing to aid in the battle. Or when you see a grey player from the same clan as the enemy blocking the objectives or ramming you or otherwise interfering in the mission. so the use of the "team watch then /report" is valid.

 

When a player is exploiting you can see  you see a player use a superjump bot to place the item where it can not be reached or glitching it where it can not be retrieved without cheating.  Or using your grey status to interfere  with a match you are not part of. OR simply doing something that exploits the game mechanics to give you an advantage.

 

all of these are obvious cheats but most players do beleave that only hacks are banned, so the use of the "team watch then /report" is not just valid but necessary as every time I have seen it used there was a description as to what to look for.  How many times have you seen a player fast run carry a heavy item? See most players do not know that using a fastruncarry bot is bannable as it is botting and exploiting.  Without some one saying "team watch XX /report he is using a fastruncarry bot" most players would not know that it is cheating or that under the exploit rule of grouping with a cheater by the cheats teammates not reporting or leaving the group. 

 

There were no unfair bans, the ones complaining or refused or were ignorant of the rules because they thought that only hackers are banned.

 

Now, please someone post a link to an official statement that says "name shaming in game (not on forums) is bannable"  I need this before Sat so i can prove my bet that it is.

 

Merged.

 

 "don't create a hostile environment"  is not proof as its the same is yelling "stop wife beating" in public, the only ones to answer are the wife beaters and are the only ones that it could be hostile to. So the only ones that get upset about cheaters getting pointed out are the cheaters.  Remove the cheaters and there is no hostile environment created.