Did they ever Nerf the NTEC?

[Kewlin 692]

10 hours ago, Defibrillator said:

@Kewlin

 

 

What cruel fate is this? Why have you summoned me? Now I need to read an entire dumb thread about the N-TEC. . .

 

As a preface to everything I'm going to say, I don't come anywhere close to maining the N-TEC, I only use it occasionally when I don't feel like thinking and I want to use an AR.

 

That aside, first thing's first:

10 hours ago, Defibrillator said:

Lets take @Kewlinfav gun the star lcr old glory. Sure it has a real good accuracy. But look at how it can only manage to kill ppl after 50m range. Good luck vs those ntec users with ir3/hb2 and mobility sling.

 

The LCR isn't my favorite gun, there are several guns that I currently like way more, my favorite definitely being the S1-TIC. Favorites aside though, the LCR is probably a doubt the worst assault rifle in the game, (okay, I have a suspicion the actual worst is the ISSR-a, but I can't say since I don't own it,) as it relies solely on its accuracy and the enemy missing within AR range, and it doesn't seem to land shots well outside of AR range (though I can't verify this, it's more like how the ACT-44 doesn't land shots it seems like it should.)

 

The only real "upside" the LCR has over, say, the CR762, is the "LCR Effect," I.E. when people just stand there and let you shoot them as if they don't understand that they're getting killed. I cannot explain this, but me and other people I've talked to (whose names I've conveniently forgotten) have experienced enemies losing all motivation to take cover when being shot by an LCR. (This is, of course, a joke upside, but at the same time I actually do experience this when using the LCR for some reason.)

 

 

NOW THAT I HAVE THE LCR OUT OF THE WAY!

 

The issue of the N-TEC is far more nuanced than people give it credit. There are several points I'd like to make here:

 

     1. The N-TEC is the only free AR that isn't the starting gun, so people are naturally going to use it. People not only don't use the STAR because they assume the starter gun is bad, but the STAR's upsides are much harder to see in my opinion. People don't use other ARs as much because they're all ARMAS exclusives. People naturally use ARs because they're purposefully the most versatile class of weapons in the game. With these things in mind, the N-TEC will always be one of the most used guns in APB unless it's nerfed to a point where it's nearly unusable. Note that this also makes nerfing the N-TEC extremely dangerous as it threatens to make APB pay to win.

 

     2. The N-TEC is basically the least niche of any AR. This isn't a bad thing, nor is it a balance issue really. The fact is that there isn't a need for any other AR to have the role of "least niche AR," since that would be redundant, and the N-TEC fills that role fine. That being said, it's much easier to play a gun that's less niche, (hence the fact that ARs are popular in the first place,) but that doesn't make it better.

 

     3. Coming off of the above point, other ARs are fine, you just don't know how to use them. Take the ACES Rifle for example, I suck at using it, but I've had friends who swear by it and even consider the gun to be overpowered. My personal mention for this subject would be the FAR, which I consider to be the actually least niche of any AR in the game, as it can do basically as well as the N-TEC at longer ranges, but also is much better than the N-TEC when fired full auto (don't take this as me saying the FAR is better than the N-TEC; it's not.) Or take the ATAC as another example, I think probably most people won't dispute that the ATAC is competitive.

 

     4. It's the status quo: it's simply the single gun everyone is comfortable with and recognizes as a solid choice. I know this sounds like circular reasoning, but hear me out here for a second. I don't think anyone will debate that back in the golden-age of the N-TEC is was overpowered, and quite honestly most people used the N-TEC if they weren't using some other member of the Holy Trinity, but when it got nerfed it was still a good gun. . . so why learn another gun? (Not that there's another gun most people can learn instead of it, as I mentioned above in #1.) The N-TEC has been a solid choice in APB since day 1 of CB back in 2009, so why would someone who's building their loadout based solely on performance (I.E. a "tryhard") try to use anything beside the N-TEC

 

     5. Last, and probably least, the N-TEC is a recognizable gun that's aesthetically pleasing. Everybody knows the AK platform, even they erroneously call it an AK-47, and I don't know of anybody who thinks the N-TEC looks or sounds bad. It's a gun people are comfortable choosing and are drawn to. Ask yourself, which do you think looks better, the N-TEC 5 or the AR-97? Which are you more drawn to?

 

 

 

So do I think the N-TEC could use a nerf? Yeah, it could use a minor nerf. Does it need one? Absolutely not.

 

[Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 269]

29 minutes ago, Archon said:

Those words alone are enough to get you in a heap of trouble with alot of people.. 

Lol bring it. No mob shall pressure me to change my opinion

 

 

 

 

please no booli

[vsb 6171]

1 minute ago, Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 said:

Lol bring it. No mob shall pressure me to change my opinion

 

 

 

 

please no booli

hey dork, ready for your swirly?

[Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 269]

Just now, BXNNXD said:

hey dork, ready for your swirly?

Well....sh*t

[EDDYWRECKER 10]

Ntec is Meta for a reason. 

[Genobee 143]

 

1 hour ago, Kewlin said:

  

If anything this shows how problematic of a weapon it is, in my opinion. Even things like the STAR 556 are losing when it comes to frequency of use. The gun people literally spawn into the game with, play 5 minutes, and quit. Only serving to skew the results of who uses what. People in games typically do not use something because it looks good. The most common cause for something being popular is because it is the best. Even people like me that have every gun under the sun are running into the curious situation of.. why bother using the other options? There's a clear-cut winner by a good bit. Unless I'm just screwing around there's no purpose*.

 

I believe the aesthetics are unrelated to the root cause of the guns steady popularity. The familiarity however may be indicative of longstanding balance issues. People have become entrenched in the meta for so long that they aren't willing to budge an inch on something so comfortable to them at this point. 

 

That said I'm not sure what the best approach is. Weapon balance is in such a peculiar state that I'm not sure I'd advocate for a nerf. Not sure I would recommend trying to get other guns on par with it either. Hell I think I'd prefer they take a chance on throwing it all out the window instead some day. Starting over from a point that's more workable then the mess we have now. 

 

* worth noting that I do believe this to be good to an extent. In the past they'd intentionally make ARMAS weapons slightly behind that of standard free unlocks. Effectively ensuring that free players were never left in the dust. Yes that hasn't always worked, but the idea is solid! I'm just worried the margins are all kinds of out of whack.. again.

[Nejekur 4]

I've put this more eloquently before, but the simple thing is the NTEC is way more versatile then it should be. It's intended as the jack of all trades, but it dominates mid while competing too heavily in CQC. its bar none the best at 30-50m, which would be fine, but under that its still one of the top guns. Its not just me whining about other people killing me when I say its just as good in CQC as any SMG, I pull an NTEC out and do the same things. Everyone tells me to learn to play better, but the best way I find to play better.... is to switch to my NTEC..

 

I just hope Matt understands that as long as the CR-5 I've had for 6 years continues to make everything else a joke, I'm not going to buy anything else off ARMAS.

Edited December 7, 2018 by Nejekur

[Kewlin 692]

2 minutes ago, Genobee said:

If anything this shows how problematic of a weapon it is, in my opinion.

 

 

Fact aside that I'm not even entirely sure what of my points you're referring to, I could just as easily say everything you said reinforces my points.

 

Aesthetics aside, which I myself admitted was a weak point that was more playing with ideas than anything, I'm not really sure what of what you're saying is supposed to be. . . countering my arguments? I think you're trying to counter what I said, but I don't really see a strong correlation.

 

 

1 minute ago, Nejekur said:

Its not just me whining about other people killing me when I say its just as good in CQC as any SMG, I pull an NTEC out and do the same things.

 

This is gross hyperbole and I wish people would stop saying this. It's statements like this that make me not take people who call for an N-TEC nerf seriously.

[Nejekur 4]

2 minutes ago, Kewlin said:

This is gross hyperbole and I wish people would stop saying this. It's statements like this that make me not take people who call for an N-TEC nerf seriously.

I'm sorry your life experiences are different then mine, but same (.7) TTK and good accuracy mean its really not hard to do. NTEC is one of my go to guns to fight OCAs, at any range.

[Kewlin 692]

5 minutes ago, Nejekur said:

I'm sorry your life experiences are different then mine, but same (.7) TTK and good accuracy mean its really not hard to do. NTEC is one of my go to guns to fight OCAs, at any range.

 

The OCA doesn't even have a 0.7s TTK, lol, it's 0.64s, and it's way more accurate when fired while moving from the hip than the N-TEC is.

 

Those don't have to do with life experience, those are facts, so unless you're going to say you think the N-TEC can beat the OCA within 10m or so because you use the N-TEC in MM with perfect tracking, it's objective fact that the OCA is better in close ranges than the N-TEC, and I don't think almost anyone is going to argue that using MM within 10m at a running opponent is a good (or at least easy) thing to do for a lot of reasons.

Edited December 7, 2018 by Kewlin
grammar

[Fur 87]

It's almost like none of the people who cry about Ntec don't know how to use Carbine, Oscar, or Obeya.

 

 

Oh wait, you guys don't! Ha! Silly me.

 

 

 

 

[Kewlin 692]

1 hour ago, Fur said:

It's almost like none of the people who cry about Ntec don't know how to use Carbine, Oscar, or Obeya.

 

 

Oh wait, you guys don't! Ha! Silly me.

 

Unsure if you meant the double negative or not, so I'm not even sure what to think of this.

[Noob_Guardian 418]

6 hours ago, CookiePuss said:

What did they say?

Its fun to use and free?

You do realize that almost everyone i see using it uses the 3 slot version from Armas? Just saaaying.

20 hours ago, Mitne said:

Not in all ranges N-TEC is superior. Close-up it's beaten by most of other ARs (STAR, FAR), far by other ARs (ISSR-A).

The problem with balancing this weapon is that if you break balance... the next best AR is paid one (FAR Spearhead - slightly better STAR). Imagine how big outcry it would result in.

Except that if you actually look at the FAR and the STAR now, the difference is almost nonexistant after the star buff. I mean, other than the .75 star ttk which should be put to .70 imo, its almost an exact replica. Far is also achieved by the gun event that gave it, and joker store as well, but /shrug

[vsb 6171]

3 minutes ago, Noob_Guardian said:

You do realize that almost everyone i see using it uses the 3 slot version from Armas? Just saaaying.

i mean, if you were going to spend your first money on apb wouldnt you buy the weapon that you've been leasing for potentially hundreds of hours? id be willing to bet that a majority of players' first purchases are either cosmetic or a permanent version of a f2p gun

[Noob_Guardian 418]

1 hour ago, Kewlin said:

 

The OCA doesn't even have a 0.7s TTK, lol, it's 0.64s, and it's way more accurate when fired while moving from the hip than the N-TEC is.

 

Those don't have to do with life experience, those are facts, so unless you're going to say you think the N-TEC can beat the OCA within 10m or so because you use the N-TEC in MM with perfect tracking, it's objective fact that the OCA is better in close ranges than the N-TEC, and I don't think almost anyone is going to argue that using MM within 10m at a running opponent is a good (or at least easy) thing to do for a lot of reasons.

 Killing with the OCA is certainly easier, but NTEC is still rather effective in cqc...

1 minute ago, BXNNXD said:

i mean, if you were going to spend your first money on apb wouldnt you buy the weapon that you've been leasing for potentially hundreds of hours? id be willing to bet that a majority of players' first purchases are either cosmetic or a permanent version of a f2p gun

ofc, my first purchase as a perm alig, but again, you said people use it cause its free, but the majority of people i see using the ntec are using paid versions.

[vsb 6171]

2 minutes ago, Noob_Guardian said:

ofc, my first purchase as a perm alig, but again, you said people use it cause its free, but the majority of people i see using the ntec are using paid versions.

you agreed with my point and then it apparently also went over your head, im a little confused

[Kewlin 692]

21 minutes ago, Noob_Guardian said:

You do realize that almost everyone i see using it uses the 3 slot version from Armas? Just saaaying.

 

What VSB said, buying a 3-slot version of a gun you're familiar with is a solid choice. The reason they're buying it, thus, is because it's a free gun that people already know how to use, and thus they know it's a solid investment

 

 

21 minutes ago, Noob_Guardian said:

Except that if you actually look at the FAR and the STAR now, the difference is almost nonexistant after the star buff. I mean, other than the .75 star ttk which should be put to .70 imo, its almost an exact replica. Far is also achieved by the gun event that gave it, and joker store as well, but /shrug

 

I feel like RoF is a. . . pretty substantial difference. It's also more accurate. (Plus there's the magazine differences, but you know that.)

 

 

13 minutes ago, Noob_Guardian said:

 Killing with the OCA is certainly easier, but NTEC is still rather effective in cqc...

 

Yes, but due to the nature of range virtually every assault rifle is serviceable in CQC, in fact, a huge percentage of guns that aren't intended for solely for close ranges are, including, but not limited to, the STAR, FAR, S1-NA, COBR-A, ATAC, N-TEC 7, Raptor, LCR, SR15, OBIR, VBR, OSCAR, Anubis, ISSR-B, SHAW, AMG, and the S1-TIC. The N-TEC 5 is not unique in being able to beat SMGs sometimes, but that doesn't mean SMGs are not better at CQC than these guns. Quite honestly, I don't see a reason to use the N-TEC in CQC over the FBW, .45 AP, or RFP that virtually everyone has equipped as a secondary, since all three of those do the job better, and that being the case I can't say it's especially strong in that range.

 

Or are you going to disagree and say that you think the N-TEC is as effective as SMGs in CQC?

Edited December 7, 2018 by Kewlin

[CookiePuss 5379]

36 minutes ago, Noob_Guardian said:

You do realize that almost everyone i see using it uses the 3 slot version from Armas? Just saaaying.

I'll be honest and say that I guess I don't ever really looked beyond whether my opp or teammates have an ntec to "which" ntec they have. I just kind of go "ok ntec" and look to the next.

Also, whats the difference between the rifleman role Dvah and the ARMAS Dvah ?

Edited December 7, 2018 by CookiePuss

[Noob_Guardian 418]

1 hour ago, BXNNXD said:

you agreed with my point and then it apparently also went over your head, im a little confused

i miss the trollface emoji

[Noob_Guardian 418]

39 minutes ago, CookiePuss said:

I'll be honest and say that I guess I don't ever really looked beyond whether my opp or teammates have an ntec to "which" ntec they have. I just kind of go "ok ntec" and look to the next.

Also, whats the difference between the rifleman role Dvah and the ARMAS Dvah ?

None really, other than armas vs contact, but same weapon stats. Unless you want to get into the CR-5 illuminati theory.

 

55 minutes ago, Kewlin said:

 

What VSB said, buying a 3-slot version of a gun you're familiar with is a solid choice. The reason they're buying it, thus, is because it's a free gun that people already know how to use, and thus they know it's a solid investment

 

 

 

I feel like RoF is a. . . pretty substantial difference. It's also more accurate. (Plus there's the magazine differences, but you know that.)

 

 

 

Yes, but due to the nature of range virtually every assault rifle is serviceable in CQC, in fact, a huge percentage of guns that aren't intended for solely for close ranges are, including, but not limited to, the STAR, FAR, S1-NA, COBR-A, ATAC, N-TEC 7, Raptor, LCR, SR15, OBIR, VBR, OSCAR, Anubis, ISSR-B, SHAW, AMG, and the S1-TIC. The N-TEC 5 is not unique in being able to beat SMGs sometimes, but that doesn't mean SMGs are not better at CQC than these guns. Quite honestly, I don't see a reason to use the N-TEC in CQC over the FBW, .45 AP, or RFP that virtually everyone has equipped as a secondary, since all three of those do the job better, and that being the case I can't say it's especially strong in that range.

 

Or are you going to disagree and say that you think the N-TEC is as effective as SMGs in CQC?

I mean, its also considered the best AR in game, so ofc they are going to buy it. Remember the time C-2 and ATAC were the big guns and everyone bought them and ntecs went missing? me too. People tend to buy what's meta and best before anything else.

 

RoF is a big difference between far and star, though i didn't notice accuracy being "too different". I'd have to check stats, i used both far and star intermittently at times (or did at least when i was maxing the role), and they felt really similar in handling and accuracy. TTK difference and ammo were honestly the only big differences i noticed but since I use EM3 for everything... only difference i noticed that was big was the rof.

 

NTEC is effective in cqc, but it's not as good against shotguns or OCA's unless certain tactics like the famous corner pop and ambush techniques are used. But that's more on the user than the gun. The cqc weapon ttk buffs to ~.64+ helped the CQC weapons gain advantage over the ntec in cqc, but for a long time i would have considered them equal in terms of effectiveness.

 

I feel like the only secondaries that do a better in cqc than an ntec, would be the .45 and frog, "maybe" the nfa if close enough (PDW does rather well as well). Mostly due to experience  since the TTK's are higher for the fbw and others, but lower for the .45 and fr0g, so unless they miss 2-3 shots and the pistol hits everything, the pistol is at a downside. I wouldn't say RFP is better than ntec in cqc, it's useful for finishing and corner popping, but without any cover, i wouldn't dare use it against an ntec in cqc.

[Kewlin 692]

48 minutes ago, Noob_Guardian said:

I feel like the only secondaries that do a better in cqc than an ntec, would be the .45 and frog, "maybe" the nfa if close enough (PDW does rather well as well). Mostly due to experience  since the TTK's are higher for the fbw and others, but lower for the .45 and fr0g, so unless they miss 2-3 shots and the pistol hits everything, the pistol is at a downside. I wouldn't say RFP is better than ntec in cqc, it's useful for finishing and corner popping, but without any cover, i wouldn't dare use it against an ntec in cqc.

 

Unless you're in MM you're almost certainly going to miss several with the N-TEC, and if you're good with the FBW, .45, FR0G, or RFP, you're going to land most of your shots, and if you are in MM you're a sitting duck. The only time the N-TEC isn't almost guaranteed to miss shots while running is if you're literally hugging the opponent, but in that case TTK is all that really matters so the OCA is almost certainly going to win against most guns in the game if player skill is equal and neither player is surprised (as it should.)

 

So I'd personally say that all of those pistols are decidedly at an advantage against the N-TEC, especially the .45 and FR0G.

[Lign 361]

3 hours ago, Kewlin said:

 

~

Ntec is the most popular weapon because it’s the most versatile, not becuase it’s f2p and well known ‘ak-47’. When I play for fun against average players I don’t use it, but when I get decent opposition they force me to switch to ntec. I usually see the same behavior from my friends and opponents who knows me. 

 

Ntec is a lazy gun because you don’t need to switch to other weapons depending on situation. You can be beast wherever you want with only ntec

[Nitronik 348]

9 minutes ago, Lign said:

Ntec is a lazy gun because you don’t need to switch to other weapons depending on situation. You can be beast wherever you want with only ntec

watch it now, someone will go "oh that's not exactly literally true so your point is moot" !

[Lign 361]

Just now, Nitronik said:

watch it now, someone will go "oh that's not exactly literally true so your point is moot" !

I know right, ppl are so selfish on apb forums 

[NotZombieBiscuit 3146]

The year is 2020. Silvers complained about golds using the NTEC enough that it was nerfed in to the ground. All NTEC players are kicked from  missions unless they at least switch to LTL or better. Free players no longer have an AR to use so the OCA and HVR get an indirect buff. ARMAS players are accused of being p2w for simply buying any AR at all. The silvers now complain about deleting all ARs from the game because it provides a type of gameplay that they cannot get freely.  Silvers still complain about losing to golds even when using the nerfed NTEC that now takes 3 mags to kill someone between the ranges of 40-45m only.

Edited December 7, 2018 by NotZombieBiscuit