LtL Conversion Mod

[Leefekyn 203]

As it stands, LtL is pretty limited in scope if you purely want to run it. You've got 3 primaries and 2 secondaries.  It's a good amount for a niche play style, but it would be nice to expand that roster to almost all available weapons. I'm not saying a direct conversion is a good idea, because I absolutely don't think it is. There needs to be some restrictions to make it balanced, as the N-HVR shouldn't be able to stun people at 99m etc. Availability is also a concern, as it should be something that needs to be earned. My idea for that is to add Cop Rank 16, and lock it behind that. So this is what I've got:

 

LTL Rounds (Honestly not sure which color makes the most sense here)

-Range Reduced to 50m (To avoid long range sniper stuns, and play more toward the LTL range)

-Health Damage Reduced to 85%  (Not sure if damage reduction is necessary, but LTL is typically slower than it's lethal counterparts)

-Hard Damage Reduced to 30% (Weapons that can blow up a car, but cause no flesh wounds? Nah)

-Ammunition Changed to LtL Rounds

-Stamina and Health Damage Reversed 

-Stun Flag now Positive

 

So with these changes, we effectively have nerfed versions of guns (at about 85% damage, minus range) that have the ability to stun. They will always be worse than their lethal counterparts, and have one less mod slot. Numbers are pretty rough, but that's why I wanted to make this thread. If you can think of any weapon or combo that would become too strong with this, please let me know!

 

 

Test it out!!!

Link: Damage Calculator

This is a link to a spreadsheet that would show how this mod would change most weapons. There are a few that aren't calculated correctly, but the majority should work great. The values in the "LTL Conversion Mod" Box are editable too! So if you don't like the values proposed, feel free to tweak them. 

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Leefekyn
Updated database link

[Nanometic 265]

I like, Put this on the OTW, see what people find is broken and adjust accordingly. 

 

For the symbol though, i'd change it to blue, just to avoid confusing about mod colours, maybe just put the well known stabba bolt down the middle of the mag rather than at the side?

 

Also curious how this would effect the osmaw. If it becomes too broken you could add on a mag reduction, making it not work on the osmaw.

[vsb 6171]

id rather reduce range by some percent, maybe 10% - 15%, instead of just locking it to 50m

[Leefekyn 203]

3 hours ago, Nanometic said:

I like, Put this on the OTW, see what people find is broken and adjust accordingly. 

 

For the symbol though, i'd change it to blue, just to avoid confusing about mod colours, maybe just put the well known stabba bolt down the middle of the mag rather than at the side?

 

Also curious how this would effect the osmaw. If it becomes too broken you could add on a mag reduction, making it not work on the osmaw.

I'd also be curious to see how a hard range limit would play on the osmaw. I might draft up a few more concepts of the mag art later too, thanks!

 

1 hour ago, BXNNXD said:

id rather reduce range by some percent, maybe 10% - 15%, instead of just locking it to 50m

I'd just be afraid that the hvr. It would feel pretty cheap to be stunned at 80-85m out. I feel like a range limit would be better, but I guess it'd be no worse than the regular hvr. The range limit, at least in my mind, helps to show when it might not be worth it to try and run for an arrest as well.

[vsb 6171]

Just now, Leefekyn said:

I'd also be curious to see how a hard range limit would play on the osmaw. I might draft up a few more concepts of the mag art later too, thanks!

 

I'd just be afraid that the hvr. It would feel pretty cheap to be stunned at 80-85m out. I feel like a range limit would be better, but I guess it'd be no worse than the regular hvr. The range limit, at least in my mind, helps to show when it might not be worth it to try and run for an arrest as well.

a stun at 85m would be impossible to get to a lot of the time, teammates or not,

 

that plus the reduced stamina damage means the hvr wouldn’t be the ranged juggernaut like it is for health damage - a pretty big nerf considering this mod would also allow other sniper rifles to compete as well

[Leefekyn 203]

3 minutes ago, BXNNXD said:

a stun at 85m would be impossible to get to a lot of the time, teammates or not,

 

that plus the reduced stamina damage means the hvr wouldn’t be the ranged juggernaut like it is for health damage - a pretty big nerf considering this mod would also allow other sniper rifles to compete as well

Solid point, especially since a slot is taken up by the conversion. So something from the standard 3ps3, ir3, hs3 mod set would need to be pulled.

[NotZombieBiscuit 3146]

3 hours ago, Leefekyn said:

I'd also be curious to see how a hard range limit would play on the osmaw. I might draft up a few more concepts of the mag art later too, thanks!

 

50m LTL Osmaw would be fucking hilarious. On the volcano too. Even if it wouldn't be that great.

 

Edited October 17, 2018 by NotZombieBiscuit

[Leefekyn 203]

On 10/16/2018 at 9:35 PM, NotZombieBiscuit said:

50m LTL Osmaw would be fucking hilarious. On the volcano too. Even if it wouldn't be that great.

 

It would be pretty insane haha, but having the gun detonate early would probably be too big of an advantage in some cases.

 

I've been running the volcano this last week with the only desire being stuns. Fun as all hell, but completely unreliable.

[Leefekyn 203]

Bumping this thread as I recently made a damage calculator to show how this would change most weapons. Not 100% accurate, but it's fun to theory craft with some weapons. Link is in the main post, enjoy!

[kurbstomp88 25]

ive been asking for open slot ltls for ages but this is a way better idea considering it molds your favorite weapon into a ltl and be able to have high rof ltls but i think the biggest issue i foresee would be lmgs try capping a point with 2 lmgs raining stuns while someone is running cqc with a stun thumper or stun oca. also it would probably be best to make it a red mod since some weapons with current number would struggle to get a stun in a single mag with out EM 3 and fits the theme of red mods being combat mods( dont think that the right word for it) but red mods are rof/range/accuracy or recoil 

 

Edited November 3, 2018 by kurbstomp88

[Ketog 1031]

this is a very good idea , this could make weapons like Anubis or norseman actually viable

 

i would also reduce the damage a bit more so and both apply @BXNNXD idea AND lock the range at 50 meters

 

Reduce the range to 50 meters + 10% of the weapon's base range

 

 

Adding this mod would be a simple way to open a whole new world for LTL , plus , seeing your spreadsheet , none of the weapons would seem to be excessively strong for LTL's  as most of them will basically become worse weapons but that can instead stun people .

 

the only thing i don't agree with is that mod being at rank 16 of COP , in my opinion such a mod would be a high motivation to play LTL and having it locked so far behind stuns would make cops loose interest on it , instead put it at a low rank (5 or 6)  so players will actually want to play less than lethal . (also some people wouldn't use it because there's no point doing arrests at max rank cop)

 

Still a nobrainer upvote from me!

Edited October 10, 2019 by Ketog

[Nitronik 348]

I'm gonna play devil's advocate

There's way too many edge cases and unforseen consequences waiting around the corner - and assuming "most weapons become much weaker!" that really doesn't give you a reason to use this mod

I think this mod is way too convoluted for its own good
 

Why would I, a developer, test and balance out the myriad of possible combinations this brings forth when I can just.... design a LTL weapon
 

What time and effort you might save in terms of authoring and testing new LTL guns you end up wasting with potential balance issues - given the way modifications work, you can't really tweak this mod to affect each individual gun differently without having people go "ayo wtf you doing little orbit" - like they rightfully did when we came to find out the silenced RFP somehow has less range

LTL is in a godawful state, and I agree with that. But at this point wouldn't adding new LTL weapons just be... easier? There's only so many niches to fill in this game

 

[Weeb TheEpicGuyV2 269]

1 hour ago, Ketog said:

this could make weapons like anubis or norseman actually viable

How dare you call the anubis not viable

[dett2 64]

I want Open slot LTL guns.

[Nitronik 348]

12 hours ago, dett2 said:

I want Open slot LTL guns.

your wish has been granted

Someone out there is running HB3 CCG , HS3 IR3 NL-9

You have ushered into a new era of broken

[Leefekyn 203]

Just a quick update, since db.apbvault.net now shows the total shotgun damage per shot adjusted for the pellet scaling, I was able to correct the sheet to include shotguns! If you notice anything wrong, please let me know! Looking at this, the CSG looks like it'd be a lot of fun.

 

Edit: It should now take in to account the mods that the pre-made weapons have as well!

Edited December 7, 2018 by Leefekyn

[Ketog 1031]

On 12/13/2018 at 1:11 AM, LoveForMatt said:

This is interesting... but it would probably op since some weapons have really low ttk. People will cry a lot.

Excuse me but did you actually read the topic ?

[Leefekyn 203]

On 12/12/2018 at 4:11 PM, LoveForMatt said:

This is interesting... but it would probably op since some weapons have really low ttk. People will cry a lot.

I get your concern, but it doesn't really work here. If implemented, all weapons would be substantially worse than their lethal counterparts. Not to mention have one less mod slot.

 

On 11/15/2018 at 2:05 PM, Nitronik said:

I'm gonna play devil's advocate

There's way too many edge cases and unforseen consequences waiting around the corner - and assuming "most weapons become much weaker!" that really doesn't give you a reason to use this mod

I think this mod is way too convoluted for its own good
 

Why would I, a developer, test and balance out the myriad of possible combinations this brings forth when I can just.... design a LTL weapon
 

What time and effort you might save in terms of authoring and testing new LTL guns you end up wasting with potential balance issues - given the way modifications work, you can't really tweak this mod to affect each individual gun differently without having people go "ayo wtf you doing little orbit" - like they rightfully did when we came to find out the silenced RFP somehow has less range

LTL is in a godawful state, and I agree with that. But at this point wouldn't adding new LTL weapons just be... easier? There's only so many niches to fill in this game

 

Sorry, just realized I never replied to this.

 

I know that introducing something like this would be a large undertaking, but would essentially allow the team to never need to make content relating to LtL again. (Not that they're at all obligated to now) I do expect that if something like this were to be introduced, it'd need an extended stay in the OTW to try and prevent any edge cases.

 

Aside from that, creating a new weapon would require a new gun model, potentially new animations, and still need a good amount of testing to ensure fair balance.

[TzickyT 212]

u did your homework ... i can vouch for this one as i also want to see a NHVR or DMR stunner.

 

if i go further on the nhvr or dmr stunner. any ideas how they would work also ?

 

 

 

[Hexerin 1140]

There's literally no reason to have the reduced damage. Slotting the mod in instantly makes your gun incapable of killing anything anyways, and after getting the stun you still have to run over and actually arrest the person (which takes a significant amount of time, while putting you in the open and vulnerable to enemy retaliation).

 

People who complain about getting stunned should be ignored and laughed at. They're whingeing because they got slapped by an exceptionally inferior weapon type and want to try and push this incredibly hilarious idea that less than lethal weapons are overpowered on some level.

 

News flash: Less than lethal gameplay is undertuned to an exceptionally high degree. Anyone who's stunning and arresting you, would be completely mopping the floor with you without even breaking a sweat if they swapped over to lethal. Like this isn't even debatable, it's objective fact.

 

Having the mod simply swap a gun's health and stamina damage values would be perfectly balanced, with only a few edge cases being problematic (your concern about HVR is valid, but it isn't as bad as you're making it seem to yourself... and ultimately it's just because HVR is an overtuned gun in the first place more than anything). Those edge cases could be smoothed out with sub-effects on the mod similarly to how Cooling Jacket has a different effect on shotgun type weapons.

 

All that being said, I fully support this mod being a reality. I've also suggested it many times in the past. I still constantly pull out my Stabba to this day, despite maxing the Cop role four times now. Having more variety would just make it all the better whenever I get the itch to arrest some peeps.

[Leefekyn 203]

Did some updates today!

 

1. I realized that the sheet had not been fully updated to use apbdb.com, so I just went back in and updated everything. So if you had any issues with it before, please try again now!

 

2. Attempted to fix the line function used to measure damage during the dropoff and it seems to have worked. 

 

3. Added an adjusted Shots to Stun, and Time to Stun box, so you don't need to estimate that yourself anymore.

Edited January 10, 2020 by Leefekyn

[Leefekyn 203]

Hey everyone, recently went though my old google sheets and found this again. I realized that it was completely broken since APBDB.com got updated a while back. I decided to spruce the sheet up a bit, and add all the new weapon values from the DB. 

So the idea lives again. Feel free to take a look at the updated sheet and play around with it!

[Meterora 20]

New potential content for the new contacts? crazy

25% damage reduction seems best imo after playing around with it a bit :    )

Edited December 7, 2023 by Meterora

[BlatMan 708]

You'd need to prevent it from being used on shotguns and LMGs. Those will perform significantly better than CCG and NL-9.

 

The other weapons might be fine if both factions can stun and arrest. It will be unbalanced with only enforcers having ltl. You'll gain accuracy and stamina damage (per mag) over the current ltl weapons, which doesn't sound balanced.

[Meterora 20]

I mean on JG for example it is going to be a 2 shot to stun at hugging distance. But it's going to be a 3 shot most of the time. CSG even more so.

So it would fall in line with the NL9. But the NL9 does shoot slower but has more range since its beanbag

 

I dunno what you mean with LMG's tho?

Are you talking about swarm/amg? Swarm is already hard to aim with for some and increasing the TTK will make it harder to use. AMG is always busted so hm

 

Making it cap at 50m range would make them even more "useless" but yeah not immensely more "useless"

useless=less viable i mean