Let's talk: OTW Improved Rifling

[DouglasFalcon 125]

So apparently Baylan C has a twisted IR that lowers the weapon's fire rate, leaving bloom untouched.
I only know the stats of IR3, and these are:
+7 M effective range (same as Live)
-21% fire rate

At first I was like "why tf did they do that?" but as I was using some IR3 weapons I've started to realize that maybe this idea is decent, as a decreased fire rate balances the weapon at closer ranger, nerfing its capabilities and therefore "pushing" its effective range a couple metres forward.
Let's take an example: NTEC, one of the premiere IR3 abusers in the game.
With a lowered fire rate, NTEC's abilities in CQC are drastically reduced, no longer being able to spray and pray to possibly cheese the opponent, but at the same time the lighter bloom will help it being more accurate at longer ranges.

Of course, as with any testing stages, there are still some major flaws.
One of them is definetely how this new IR3 destroys weapons like LCR PR2, which now is completely unusable. Shredder PR3 also becomes pretty bad, and so do some other shotguns like Joker TAS.
Also, maybe a 21% is a bit too harsh and should be a bit lower. Again, we need further testing in order to understand.

All in all I think this idea can potentially fix a lot of issues if done well, what do you guys think of this? (I recommend to go on OTW and test it yourself)

[CookiePuss 5378]

Fixing IR3?
I like it.

[Nite 261]

So how do marksman rifles like the ObeyaCR cope with this reduced fire rate? I can't imagine it does all that well in theory (though I have yet to test it)

[DouglasFalcon 125]

5 minutes ago, Nite said:

So how do marksman rifles like the ObeyaCR cope with this reduced fire rate? I can't imagine it does all that well in theory (though I have yet to test it)

Unfortunately testing IR3 on weapons is kinda hard right now, since we don't have the mod to slap on open slotted weapons and see how they perform. Again I think we need as much testing as possible so please go play OTW :)

[Nite 261]

3 minutes ago, DouglasFalcon said:

Unfortunately testing IR3 on weapons is kinda hard right now, since we don't have the mod to slap on open slotted weapons and see how they perform. Again I think we need as much testing as possible so please go play OTW

Fair enough. Any idea what's been changed for C and D test district?

[Lord Cashpoint 269]

The idea is interesting, but -21% for only 7m extra is just insane. So many presets which use IR3 would effectively become worthless.

[DouglasFalcon 125]

8 minutes ago, Nite said:

12 minutes ago, DouglasFalcon said:

Unfortunately testing IR3 on weapons is kinda hard right now, since we don't have the mod to slap on open slotted weapons and see how they perform. Again I think we need as much testing as possible so please go play OTW

Fair enough. Any idea what's been changed for C and D test district?

Haven't played in D yet, logging now.
If there are any differences I'll post them here

4 minutes ago, Lord Cashpoint said:

The idea is interesting, but -21% for only 7m extra is just insane. So many presets which use IR3 would effectively become worthless.

You're right, but I think it's a good start. Shotguns were broken AF in Baylan A and B but now they're much better, so if IR gets the same treatment we may come to a good result

[vsb 6171]

seems like an odd choice, why not just give ir3 increased recoil or increase the spread/bloom modifier 

[DouglasFalcon 125]

BIG UPDATE: 
Apparently, the twisted IR3 was intended to only be applied on shotguns (as you can read here: https://imgur.com/a/1Zq9rxd ), so I'm not sure that other weapons will have anything changed.
I still think that an universal IR3 change may be interesting, but we'll see in the future.

Also: no differenced between Baylan C and D as far as IR3 is concerned.

[LazyLizard 41]

7 minutes ago, BXNNXD said:

seems like an odd choice, why not just give ir3 increased recoil or increase the spread/bloom modifier 

Easily countered by simply tapping the weapon. Reduced firerate is great.

[PoshDoll 93]

i think the fire rate penalty should only affect fully automatic weapons and not semi auto weapons like rifles, dmrs and shotguns.

[vsb 6171]

8 minutes ago, DouglasFalcon said:

BIG UPDATE: 
Apparently, the twisted IR3 was intended to only be applied on shotguns (as you can read here: https://imgur.com/a/1Zq9rxd ), so I'm not sure that other weapons will have anything changed.
I still think that an universal IR3 change may be interesting, but we'll see in the future.

Also: no differenced between Baylan C and D as far as IR3 is concerned.

it makes slightly more sense if it’s only meant for shotguns, still seems like a strange negative to me
 

8 minutes ago, LazyLizard said:

Easily countered by simply tapping the weapon. Reduced firerate is great.

imo that’s the point of improved rifling, taking the time/effort to fire “correctly” trades off for more range, making those timed shots more effective

i’d like to see rifling get the same negative as cooling jacket, but 2 mods with the same downside is kind of meh

side note, does this rof negative affect the obir the same way cooling jacket does? potential issue


  Edited August 4, 2018 by BXNNXD
typo

[Senodus 49]

Make it like a reverse cooling jacket. Ir1 -3%, ir2 -5%, ir3 -7% and it could be very balanced.

[Kempington 295]

They went with reduced fire rate with the increased range? That's awesome. I'll give it a proper run through and see what impact that has. That's really neat though. Improved rifling needed a unique downside that hasn't happened yet. This might be the right choice.

[BlatMan 711]

Have IR increase recoil slightly would do more to balance the mod, You can still fire fast up close, but you lose a little stability at range.
 

1 hour ago, Nite said:

So how do marksman rifles like the ObeyaCR cope with this reduced fire rate? I can't imagine it does all that well in theory (though I have yet to test it)

It turns it into a semi-auto LCR. Defeats the whole purpose of the Obeya CR.

 

[DouglasFalcon 125]

14 minutes ago, MrsHappyPenguin said:

Have IR increase recoil slightly would do more to balance the mod, You can still fire fast up close, but you lose a little stability at range.
 

This is exactly the issue IR3 has tho. it's meant to make weapons do better at range but it makes them less accurate while shooting. The IR3 negates the whole "if you wanna be accurate you gotta shoot slower" thing and just forces you to shoot slower, and this happens to fix some of the issues at CQC distances.

Again maybe 21% is too big of a reduction but the concept is very interesting
 

[Beastie 177]

Hi, I'll be writing up a larger post on this in another balance thread,, but I should mention my reasoning behind this  

Rifling has always been a funny one, on a lot of weapons it has basically no downside as they aren't designed to hit their maximum bloom (Rifles, Shotguns and Snipers primarily). With the changes to shotgun mechanics, we're now balancing them partly on effective range (rather than just ray-spread), and thus Rifling goes from being a fairly negligible mod on them (no downside but only a tiny poking upside) to actually being a major benefit. Due to this, we need a downside on Rifling that will affect shotguns.

At the same time, the general concept with weapons for the most part is closer range = faster effective TTK. It's not the full truth, a lot of other things apply, but it's a general concept. As such, a longer TTK seems a good trade-off for longer range. It can also be seen as a slight improvement on some weapons, as the additional handling you gain from a slower fire rate may allow you to full-auto in situations where you'd otherwise have to tap fire.

With that in mind, I implemented a straight up fire rate decrease (it effects burst interval as well) as a downside for rifling across the board on all weapons. I'm somewhat worried that some weapon is going to break with it on, since accuracy and fire rate are intrinsically linked, but it's worth an experiment.

This may break things, so we may restrict it purely to shotguns, but the OTW is for testing, and it's interesting enough to try out.  If you see anything that feels a bit wonky with it, let me know.

Oh, and I know this will make some presets a bit worse, especially the LCRs, so if this goes through they'll need a buff to compensate.

[vsb 6171]

3 minutes ago, LO_Beastie said:

Hi, I'll be writing up a larger post on this in another balance thread,, but I should mention my reasoning behind this  

Rifling has always been a funny one, on a lot of weapons it has basically no downside as they aren't designed to hit their maximum bloom (Rifles, Shotguns and Snipers primarily). With the changes to shotgun mechanics, we're now balancing them partly on effective range (rather than just ray-spread), and thus Rifling goes from being a fairly negligible mod on them (no downside but only a tiny poking upside) to actually being a major benefit. Due to this, we need a downside on Rifling that will affect shotguns.

At the same time, the general concept with weapons for the most part is closer range = faster effective TTK. It's not the full truth, a lot of other things apply, but it's a general concept. As such, a longer TTK seems a good trade-off for longer range. It can also be seen as a slight improvement on some weapons, as the additional handling you gain from a slower fire rate may allow you to full-auto in situations where you'd otherwise have to tap fire.

With that in mind, I implemented a straight up fire rate decrease as a downside for rifling across the board on all weapons. I'm somewhat worried that some weapon is going to break with it on, since accuracy and fire rate are intrinsically linked, but it's worth an experiment.

This may break things, so we may restrict it purely to shotguns, but the OTW is for testing, and it's interesting enough to try out.  If you see anything that feels a bit wonky with it, let me know.

Oh, and I know this will make some presets a bit worse, especially the LCRs, so if this goes through they'll need a buff to compensate.

does this rof negative affect the burst interval or the straight up fire interval on obir?

we had sniper silencers that reduced rof for a period and it was pretty bad iirc, i fear that reducing the rof as a trade off for range will just lead to people foregoing rifling in favor of putting more shots downrange faster, at least on weapons that are more accurate than they need to be for x range  

[Noob_Guardian 417]

2 hours ago, Lord Cashpoint said:

The idea is interesting, but -21% for only 7m extra is just insane. So many presets which use IR3 would effectively become worthless.

I agree, ~10% max would be fine i'd think, "maybe" 15% but still feels like pushing it.

That way it's not like OCA CJ3 levels but its still a bit slower.

[DouglasFalcon 125]

7 minutes ago, LO_Beastie said:

Hi, I'll be writing up a larger post on this in another balance thread,, but I should mention my reasoning behind this  

Rifling has always been a funny one, on a lot of weapons it has basically no downside as they aren't designed to hit their maximum bloom (Rifles, Shotguns and Snipers primarily). With the changes to shotgun mechanics, we're now balancing them partly on effective range (rather than just ray-spread), and thus Rifling goes from being a fairly negligible mod on them (no downside but only a tiny poking upside) to actually being a major benefit. Due to this, we need a downside on Rifling that will affect shotguns.

At the same time, the general concept with weapons for the most part is closer range = faster effective TTK. It's not the full truth, a lot of other things apply, but it's a general concept. As such, a longer TTK seems a good trade-off for longer range. It can also be seen as a slight improvement on some weapons, as the additional handling you gain from a slower fire rate may allow you to full-auto in situations where you'd otherwise have to tap fire.

With that in mind, I implemented a straight up fire rate decrease (it effects burst interval as well) as a downside for rifling across the board on all weapons. I'm somewhat worried that some weapon is going to break with it on, since accuracy and fire rate are intrinsically linked, but it's worth an experiment.

This may break things, so we may restrict it purely to shotguns, but the OTW is for testing, and it's interesting enough to try out.  If you see anything that feels a bit wonky with it, let me know.

Oh, and I know this will make some presets a bit worse, especially the LCRs, so if this goes through they'll need a buff to compensate.

Thank you for the clarification!
Testing IR3 is kinda hard right now because, aside from a few exceptions, the majority of players don't have any mod to slap on open slotted weapons. This means that we can only test the new IR3 on pre-slotted weapons (LCR PR2, Joker TAS, ATAC Patroller), but there are a lot of other weapons that use IR3 like Obir or Obeya CR762 that we can't really test
Having access to every mod would be appreciated tbh, it helps A LOT to understand a weapon's potential issues imo.

[vsb 6171]

5 minutes ago, DouglasFalcon said:

Thank you for the clarification!
Testing IR3 is kinda hard right now because, aside from a few exceptions, the majority of players don't have any mod to slap on open slotted weapons. This means that we can only test the new IR3 on pre-slotted weapons (LCR PR2, Joker TAS, ATAC Patroller), but there are a lot of other weapons that use IR3 like Obir or Obeya CR762 that we can't really test
Having access to every mod would be appreciated tbh, it helps A LOT to understand a weapon's potential issues imo.

there’s the obir vladivostok preset that should be in otw mail

cant remember if the armas preset obeya or the f2p preset obeya has ir3 but if there was a way to receive a free set of mods that would be pretty neat for testing


  Edited August 4, 2018 by BXNNXD
added stuff

[Iazer 204]

The changes are good although for some weapons it degrades them even more than they already are, such as the Star LCR PR2 which already has a slow fire rate but for most weapons this change is really quite effective 

[Noob_Guardian 417]

26 minutes ago, LO_Beastie said:

Hi, I'll be writing up a larger post on this in another balance thread,, but I should mention my reasoning behind this  

Rifling has always been a funny one, on a lot of weapons it has basically no downside as they aren't designed to hit their maximum bloom (Rifles, Shotguns and Snipers primarily). With the changes to shotgun mechanics, we're now balancing them partly on effective range (rather than just ray-spread), and thus Rifling goes from being a fairly negligible mod on them (no downside but only a tiny poking upside) to actually being a major benefit. Due to this, we need a downside on Rifling that will affect shotguns.

At the same time, the general concept with weapons for the most part is closer range = faster effective TTK. It's not the full truth, a lot of other things apply, but it's a general concept. As such, a longer TTK seems a good trade-off for longer range. It can also be seen as a slight improvement on some weapons, as the additional handling you gain from a slower fire rate may allow you to full-auto in situations where you'd otherwise have to tap fire.

With that in mind, I implemented a straight up fire rate decrease (it effects burst interval as well) as a downside for rifling across the board on all weapons. I'm somewhat worried that some weapon is going to break with it on, since accuracy and fire rate are intrinsically linked, but it's worth an experiment.

This may break things, so we may restrict it purely to shotguns, but the OTW is for testing, and it's interesting enough to try out.  If you see anything that feels a bit wonky with it, let me know.

Oh, and I know this will make some presets a bit worse, especially the LCRs, so if this goes through they'll need a buff to compensate.

It's fine if it doesn't work on some weapons, heavy barrel isn't used much on any weapon (it used to be used on NTEC a lot before its damage got nerfed slightly) but that's about it unless you heavy barrel 3 a DMR for stun fun.

I think it would be interesting if improved rifling effected shotguns by closing the shotgun spread slightly, but decreasing damage a little bit (specifically for shotguns). That way the range and accuracy is there, but the damage is less, though it would have to be after the shotgun changes go through to see how it effects them.

The RoF change is interesting, i'd have to get on OTW to test it fully but i feel that ~21% for 7m is a bit much. ~10-15% may bring it in line better, making ntec ~.77 rather than ~.84 (if my estimates are right) for close range, and it still would cause the ttk to go up a little bit more at range due to normal ttk increasing. At ~21% on any rifle it would be horrible to use it in cqc where a lot of combat happens, and most cqc weapons with a ttk more than ~.8 aren't used much and don't handle very well in that niche already. (looking at you Norse Series and Strife). If there's 3 levels of it 5/10/15% may be a better option if it feels too harsh.

It's nice to see it's getting a rework though

  Edited August 4, 2018 by Noob_Guardian

[Uqe 17]

could just increase the maximum bloom reticle instead of screwing the rest of the weapons in the game like obeya and obir. this would prevent the ntec from having such a tight spray at maximum bloom and keep everything else in order. of course, this wouldnt work for shotguns, could still keep that fire rate related, i guess.

[Nite 261]

42 minutes ago, Uqe said:

could just increase the maximum bloom reticle

Current IR3 has this and even if they made the effect more drastic, tap fire ARs would never see it play out in practice anyway