Game Balance - Observations, Thoughts and Suggestions

[Bound2Fail 8]

Note to mods: Since nobody reads or even acknowledges the existence of the Game Suggestions board, I posted this here to spark a discussion on a borderline dead game’s forum, and possibly get developers to shift their priorities accordingly. Moving the post to Game Suggestions would be a mistake. Thank you for your understanding.

 

Before I go any further, I want to preface those suggestions by saying that I can’t fully credit myself for coming up with some ideas, and that putting on the backburner major balance in favor of overhauls indefinitely was a mistake that instantly ruined most players’ faith on Little Orbit for multiple reasons. The game’s current toxicity mostly rests upon the fact that players are greeted with PvP, progression and balancing so hostile (along with lacking casual features that would make it at least fun), that everybody unanimously agrees that it was predatory design by Gamersfirst to force Armas sales. In true G1 fashion however, they even failed in this regard, and became one of the major reasons G1 got bought by LO, because they failed at following this simple core rule: If your MMO is unpleasant to grind on as is, no player retention will happen. No retention, no growth, meaning you earn an ever-shrinking pool of increasingly bitter and hostile customers over time.

 

Somewhere within the forum a little over a year ago, Matt had typed about buffing every weapon outside of the DMR-AV, which for reasons unknown to anybody actually playing the game, would get nerfed. Hopefully that 18-page long file has been modified since, because I predict a do-over of more than a decade of power creep, toxicity being blamed on “griefers” (what streamers with unwarranted self-importance call dudes minding their own business who accidentally graze their cars) and people criticizing LO for not going full USSR on the community. No, giving streamers the power to phase through cars in a “rule for me, not for thee” system, and being banned for shitposting in chat won’t make this game marketable; you’ll just sanitize and ruin what little player interaction remains for cheap publicity the game currently neither deserves nor benefits from. To end this side note, let me say that this is more entertaining for everybody than what LO currently envisions.

 

Rant over  .

 

Mods:

 

Character mods:

 

• Universal change: All mods, regardless of where they are purchased, can be equipped by all characters, regardless of rank or mod type.

 

There are two things in focus outside of direct balancing here: character progression and specialization, along with better cooperation. At the time, every mod outside allowing this outside of vanilla field resupply are locked behind 310+ hours of 24/7 grinding per character to reach R195. Not only does this mark a fundamental failure at understanding the game’s core design principles and is a direct betrayal of one of APB’s selling points (identity in both playstyle and aesthetics), it also fails in teaching new players valuable lessons in teamplay and loadout synergy across a team, which contributes to most of the toxicity the game generates by creating an ecosystem where solo plays are implicitly encouraged in a team-oriented game. Considering Gamersfirst was behind this choice, this likely is the product of malicious design to increase Premium sales.

 

No, making mods available in the Joker Store and having newbs grind FC for tickets doesn’t solve the problem: it exacerbates it, as they are put against top-tier players who will inevitably crush them or farm them for easy role grinding, which would either have them leave the game or grow increasingly bitter as time goes. This choice indicates that there is demand for more teamwork across the game, and yet, nothing has been done to answer it in a meaningful, sensical way by anybody for a decade.

 

Consumables are another bag of troubles that share the same space with orange mods: really, they just exist because G1 was creatively bankrupt concerning the last remaining character slot, and was too busy spiting the player base for daring to ask their game and staff to not be garbage. Most consumables either cheese fights (med spray, epi, mobile cover) or serve little to no purpose against experienced players (boom box, satchels) with no in-between.

 

 

Orange & Yellow mods:

 

• Banners and boom boxes become yellow items. Yellow items do not require charges and are not considered consumables anymore (random weapon event boxes are excluded from this rule and still act as consumables).

 

The idea behind this would be to turn yellow mods into “For Fun” mods. Not competitive stuff or gimmicks; just something nice to use off-duty/in Social or when screwing around during event times, and to top it all off, it would be a viable way to monetize the game.

 

• Remove resupply boxes, med spray, and epinephrine.

 

• All orange mods currently restricted to R195 are now available for everybody and are unlocked through T1 contacts for purchase for less than $1500. Once unlocked, one unit is mailed directly to players.

 

The sole reason why this would take time would be because re-writing lore mails sent by T5 and Specialist contacts would take about 1-2 weeks of effort either editing or writing new things. But hey, in lore, Gumball correctly observes the crim player character never gave two flying Fs about mails outside of attachments, so why have lore stop you now of all times?

 

• Satchel charges:

 

1. Now an orange mod.
2. Satchels become Breaching Charges: sticky throwables statistically similar to concussion grenades in terms of hard damage, 500 in stamina damage and throwing weight slightly heavier than frags. Can open doors remotely and are activated 0.6 seconds after they have been planted.
3. Breaching charges, once activated, are held, and then thrown with a single M1 click by default. Detonating the charges would optimally be done with a separate bind.

 

• Mobile Cover

 

1. Mobile cover becomes large enough to fit at least one people and a half and gets slightly raised to prevent pixel peeking.
2. Cooldown: 120s ->190s

 

Shields in their current state only serve to block objectives and ladders. Let them serve an actual defensive use instead of being an easily broken nuisance.

 

• Field Supplier:

 

1. Vanilla gets replaced with Wide Radius; lasts 35 seconds.

 

• Resupply box:

 

1. Becomes an Orange Mod. You cannot modify loadouts with it and lasts until the cooldown is over or gets destroyed.
2. Only one of them can be deployed per character.

 

Voluntary ammo supplying in this game never happens, because currently, nobody has any real reason or choice to use any orange mod outside of suppliers, meaning everybody has ammo at all times. Considering the orange revamp proposed here attempts to diversify roles, here, an actual fire support role gets introduced, with two different approaches to it: Field Supplier would allow players to share ammo and switch guns without having teammates uncomfortably hug your face with their crotch, with the downside of taking the user out of firefights as long as his box is out (which would become a major gamble in certain situations). On the other end, Resupply Boxes would serve as a passive recovery point or a rallying point in SHTF scenarios where you’ll be needed in fights in exchange of team-wide weapon switching on the fly (in other words, trading team flexibility for map presence).

 

• Radar Jammer:

 

1. Raise effects to 60m. Keep negatives.

 

Currently, there are very few reasons to use thanks to the small range of it. The mod would benefit from having users just barely visible on everybody’s radar before they get jammed. Speedy and loud playstyles got enough toys now, why not give some love to stealth, eh?

 

 

Green and Blue mods:

 

• Car Surfer becomes an orange car mod.

 

1. Allows everybody to car surf onto a car equipped with it. -70% damage resistance. Just say that the chassis used to allow it requires thinner car plating or something, I dunno.

 

I must admit to bias here: I love car surfing, and while removing this from the game would be a good step, it would also remove something fun from the game. Detractors of it often say that CS completely ruined car chases by allowing cars AV turrets, and I completely agree, which is why I redesigned this mod into forcing a glass-canon approach to car surf to all vehicles, including the bigger ones like Pioneers (which, if my math is correct, wouldn’t be able to withstand a direct OSMAW rocket). Attempting to make cars tankier by adding Steel Plating would successfully reduce the penalty against ambushing AV outside of OSMAWs, at the cost of top speed, something you don’t want to lose in a car chase or during objective transitions. I like to think that this version of car surfing would make for a good “for fun” mod with niche tactical uses.

 

• Make R195 mods of those categories available around the same time tier 2 modifications of their categories get unlocked.

 

Optimally, you’d want opposite green mods being unlocked at the same time. Say I unlocked Kevlar II; I would also unlock Fragile for purchase, thus, giving me a choice between tanking damage at the cost of speed, more evasion at the cost of health, or sticking to either CA / Flak jacket or vanilla.

 

Since variety in blue mods before R195 is nonexistent, each tier of Happy Landings would unlock something new, I thought of it in this order:

HL1 / Hard Landing

HL2 / Valzipram Tablets

HL3 / whatever blue mod comes next since car surf isn’t a char mod anymore

 

 

Weapon Mods:

 

• Improved Rifling:

 

1.  Range improvement hinges on small percentages instead of raw values.
2. Replace the max bloom penalty with a ROF penalty.
3. Leave preset versions of the mod untouched.

 

Although it was rough around the edges back when LO did a similar thing, this change did show a good understanding of how gun mods should work in APB: as fundamental alterations to how guns behave, not direct upgrades. The slower ROF didn’t just make previously unusable guns usable; it made some viable: high RoF meme guns like the M1922 and the SHAW for example, became very fun to play with again thanks to them shooting fast enough for the server to catch up- it created so many cool things and combos that, for many, it became fun to toy around with gun mods again, and made discoveries some would have otherwise ignored.

Unfortunately, the excessive whining of NTEC mains getting outperformed by CR762s legitimate complaints over some preset weapons breaking had them revert it back to its prior state, which turned it back into a straight upgrade for almost every gun.

 

• 3-Point-Sling:

 

1. 3-5-7% less character speed as the weapon equips itself.

 

I don’t understand why this mod in particular has no downsides whatsoever despite the insane bonus it holds. If anybody knows the reason why, do enlighten me.

This change also incentivizes the usage of lower levels of it. Currently, lower levels of 3PS may as well not exist.

 

• High Magnification Scope:

 

Raise accuracy benefits to Hunting Sight 2’s (might be too low in comparison the downsides HMS holds, HS3 levels sounded more reasonable in my mind)

One of the reasons why this mod sucks is because guns fitted with this that would benefit from it can’t due to the piss-poor benefits the gun receives in exchange of tunnel vision and no crosshair. It’s a shame, because it’d otherwise be a serviceable, yet niche mod.

 

Car Mods:

 

• Car Spawner: Removed.

 

There are so many wrong things with this single mod.

Reworking spawns might be the only good thing G1 did for the game: it gave the game elements of tactical planning for attackers and defender retakes that it never had with random spawns. In true G1 fashion however, they felt like going two steps back introducing car spawners, which completely destroy map balance by automatically turning fights into trench wars in favor of defenders, immediately erases defensive slip-ups and of course, has unlimited spam despite the very forgiving cooldown players have once they use it, meaning everybody’s forced to waste resources and time taking down spawners for no other reason outside of them being present on the map, and potentially killing earned victories in a single move. The sole fact you can by just spawn 50m from where you died should your opponent be forced to do something else other than destroy the 2-3 Pioneers around his objective is neither fun nor intelligent design. It is better off gone.

 

As I type this I also realize this one mod prevented the refinement of the spawn system, and killed car variety across the board: why bother fixing spawning open-field in front of defending snipers and other nonsense when you can just give players the choice to spawn pretty much anywhere on the map? If your car can’t tank concs or frags, then what’s the point of driving anything else? Trading tanky spawners for speed or agility would be a terrible trade after all (conveniently, G1 sold the 4x4, which could tank concs, while having ridiculous acceleration, maneuverability, and speed, how curious).

 

 

• Mobile Radar Tower:

 

1. Turned into Mobile Radar Jammer. Enemies within 30 meters of it have their radars jammed.
2. Cars using it aren’t marked on your map anymore until you get jammed once. Jamming victims gone out of the car’s jamming range see the car jammer for 1 - 1.5 seconds on their radar.

 

Currently, somebody running muffler/brick + MRT and sending it through areas you’re in means you automatically lose the element of surprise to what’s essentially legal wallhacks with no consequences for the guy sending it from 70m+ away. Once again, no thought had been put into creating this mod. Turning it into a jammer, however, has interesting applications where players are suddenly thrust into uncertain situations: “Is somebody running around with an active jammer? Or is it their car somewhere around the block? If it’s the former, does he know I’m there?”.

This train of thought is much more interesting than: “Oh, his Vegas had Radar Tower. I’m blown”.

 

Weapons:

 

• Firework Launcher

 

1. Now a yellow mod. Remove the spotting effect.

 

Same logic as Radar Tower. Nobody likes wallhacks. Let Spotter actually fill a role instead of giving players a tool that instantly does the job across a radius the size of the Atlantic Ocean.

 

• Slotted weapon unlocks:

 

1. 1 slot: Rank 3&4 (respective total kills: 50 & 100)
2. 2 slots: Rank 6&7 (respective total kills: 400 & 650)
3. 3 slots: Rank 10 (total kills: 1500)

 

Having game-changing weapons this far into progression for only a single character is predatory lunacy unfit for a game like APB. Spreading gun progression and edition this far negatively impact sales, AS PLAYERS FIND OUT BY BROWSING THE DB THAT IT WILL TAKE 10,000 KILLS WITH INFERIOR WEAPONS TO ACTUALLY START HAVING FUN USING MODDED GUNS FOR JUST A SINGLE CATEGORY. Another side effect of this would be discouraging curiosity with weapon tinkering, which itself would encourage account-wide weapon sales. The way it’s done here, a major balancing problem would be solved while leaving sales untouched, and that would only be the worst-case scenario, as the grind to acquire leases of slotted guns would still be present, meaning you would actually grow sales in a more healthy and natural manner.

 

“Insane grind = more whales & sales” is a myth perpetuated by smart AAA management that inevitably net a game and its dev team a bad reputation (looking at you Diablo Immortal). LO cannot weather this sort of negative PR like AAA publishers and dev teams would. G1 was direct proof of this, and yet, this went unaddressed in favor of adding new stuff the game didn’t immediately need even recently. Give a chance for those within those districts to learn how to fight on equal grounds against yellows quicker, and you’ll soon find most balancing complaints and accusations of Pay 2 Win across the game would vanish in a matter of months; because on this front, new players are absolutely right to claim that they are put at a disadvantage against people who skipped the entire progression cycle and paid for slotted guns.

 

• NTEC:

 

1. Walk modifier: 1.2 -> 2.5.
2. Recovery delay: 0.07 -> 0.09

 

It usually strikes people when I point out that, despite being the game’s starter gun, the STAR simply vanishes from districts, with the occasional new player rocking one and local bored top score wizard packing a 3 slotted one with muzzle brake and RS3 for shits and giggles. Once you come out of several games with an NTEC and go back to it, however, it just hits you how easy managing mid to long-range duels with the NTEC is, because the STAR actually requires much more precise spread management when bursting or tap-firing.

The NTEC, despite being an assault rifle (i.e. APB’s “jack of all trades master of none” class of guns), has no business being an omni-gun only outclassed by SMGs, auto-shotties and Snipers within their effective ranges. Let me highlight something most forum-goers have stubbornly refused to acknowledge for nearly a decade by now: ease of use does not equate to overpowered enough to wipe the floor with 2/3rds of the current weapon roster of the game, including its direct counterparts. I have read arguments about balancing weapons around the NTEC, and although it sounds nice when you willingly ignore the gargantuan amount of work this would represent (and the fact that this would cause a general increase in accuracy and a TTK decrease across the board), it also signals cognitive dissonance: the gun is “so balanced” that the rest of the weapon roster just needs to be as good as the NTEC. It reeks of dishonesty.

 

Rant mode: On

As 2/3rds of remaining players use it as a crutch (being generous), it is no surprise LO had backed down with from continually overhauling weapon balance in response to NTEC mains whining about their guns not being able to handle IR3 anymore, as it means that a fair share of those people will be gone in response to further change until the next meta gun finally appears. What LO doesn’t understand however, is that no games, casual or otherwise (and especially games like APB) thrive by directly pandering to meta-whores and “muh e-sports” types. The sooner and the more often those people are challenged and disrespected through balancing decisions, the healthier the game will be in the long run, especially over matters of toxicity, which LO sincerely believes it directly comes from its players and people screwing around in dump trucks instead of G1’s crack-fueled decisions cultivating a terrible PvP experience for everybody involved.

/rant

 

• CQB:

 

1. Revert changes back to Pre-LO era for both shotguns and SMGs.

I cannot for the life of me understand what pushed them to break shotguns into either game breaking levels or unusable gimmick weapons, and then balance CQB weapons around a decision universally disliked by everybody (even yellows seeking mindless silver pummeling).

I know for a fact reverting shotgun logic is possible unless LO directly screwed with their game update archives. It’s frankly weird they got around reverting everything they had experimented with back then, only to leave the second most hated change they had done intact.

 

• N-HVR:

1. Damage: 770 -> 720
2. Remove the “damage with accuracy” gimmick.

 

I must admit, I was shocked to learn that LO had finally gone and reduced the damage of the HVR. I’m not going to give them props for it though, because let’s remind ourselves, that was something over a decade overdue, and 4 years late as far as LO is concerned. Still, it’s a cute token attempt at fixing the gun I’m sure nobody expected at that point.

The additional damage reduction given here won’t kill quickswitching but will make it supremely inconvenient where it matters. It’s enough damage to cook-up something good with an RSA/ACT44+HVR build in open areas, but extremely risky once put in a cover-heavy area with clotting agent opponents in CQC. All of this, while keeping the HVR’s support role intact and deleting what makes it now just janky and annoying to use. Leave situational gimmicks to other snipers.

 

Hopefully I didn't write something boring. Thoughts?

[proxie 271]

I think the ideas presented here are really interesting and I'm glad to see that Little Orbit is taking steps to improve the game. I agree that the current toxicity in the game is largely due to predatory design by Gamersfirst, and it's great to see that LO is taking steps to address this. I think the idea of making all mods available to all characters regardless of rank or mod type is a great way to encourage more teamwork and cooperation. I also like the idea of turning yellow mods into "for fun" mods, as this would give players more options for customizing their characters and make the game more enjoyable.

I think the idea of turning the Mobile Radar Tower into a Mobile Radar Jammer is a great way to add an element of surprise and uncertainty to the game. I also like the idea of making Firework Launcher a yellow mod and removing its spotting effect, as this would make Spotter a more useful mod and encourage more tactical play.

I think the idea of making slotted weapon unlocks available at lower ranks is a great way to reduce the grind and make the game more accessible to new players. I also like the idea of increasing the walk modifier and recovery

delay of the NTEC, as this would make it more balanced and encourage players to experiment with other weapons. Overall, I think these ideas are great and I'm excited to see what else LO has in store for the game. I'm also interested to see if they will incorporate any psychedelic or AI elements into the game, as this could add a whole new level of depth and complexity to the game.

[yourrandomnobody74 106]

20 hours ago, Bound2Fail said:

 

• NTEC:

 

1. Walk modifier: 1.2 -> 2.5.
2. Recovery delay: 0.07 -> 0.09

 

It usually strikes people when I point out that, despite being the game’s starter gun, the STAR simply vanishes from districts, with the occasional new player rocking one and local bored top score wizard packing a 3 slotted one with muzzle brake and RS3 for shits and giggles. Once you come out of several games with an NTEC and go back to it, however, it just hits you how easy managing mid to long-range duels with the NTEC is, because the STAR actually requires much more precise spread management when bursting or tap-firing.

The NTEC, despite being an assault rifle (i.e. APB’s “jack of all trades master of none” class of guns), has no business being an omni-gun only outclassed by SMGs, auto-shotties and Snipers within their effective ranges. Let me highlight something most forum-goers have stubbornly refused to acknowledge for nearly a decade by now: ease of use does not equate to overpowered enough to wipe the floor with 2/3rds of the current weapon roster of the game, including its direct counterparts. I have read arguments about balancing weapons around the NTEC, and although it sounds nice when you willingly ignore the gargantuan amount of work this would represent (and the fact that this would cause a general increase in accuracy and a TTK decrease across the board), it also signals cognitive dissonance: the gun is “so balanced” that the rest of the weapon roster just needs to be as good as the NTEC. It reeks of dishonesty.

 

Rant mode: On

As 2/3rds of remaining players use it as a crutch (being generous), it is no surprise LO had backed down with from continually overhauling weapon balance in response to NTEC mains whining about their guns not being able to handle IR3 anymore, as it means that a fair share of those people will be gone in response to further change until the next meta gun finally appears. What LO doesn’t understand however, is that no games, casual or otherwise (and especially games like APB) thrive by directly pandering to meta-whores and “muh e-sports” types. The sooner and the more often those people are challenged and disrespected through balancing decisions, the healthier the game will be in the long run, especially over matters of toxicity, which LO sincerely believes it directly comes from its players and people screwing around in dump trucks instead of G1’s crack-fueled decisions cultivating a terrible PvP experience for everybody involved.

/rant

 

 

Hopefully I didn't write something boring. Thoughts?

No, you didn't write anything boring. You wrote things which have would have a questionable outcome at best.

 

>"...and although it sounds nice when you willingly ignore the gargantuan amount of work this would represent (and the fact that this would cause a general increase in accuracy and a TTK decrease across the board)..."

No, it's not a big task at all when you have a proper vision on how a shooter is supposed to work. The game does not need a TTK decrease. However, it does need a accuracy (which your changes do not propose???) increase paired with multiple other changes.

 

>"...it also signals cognitive dissonance: the gun is “so balanced” that the rest of the weapon roster just needs to be as good as the NTEC."

There is not a single weapon in the game which can be used as a model to balance the rest of the guns around, as all guns are inherently flawed ever since APB:R released.

Balancing around a single balanced gun, when the game has at least 1 proper gun, is good step in the right direction though.

 

This particular part stung me.

 

>What LO doesn’t understand however, is that no games, casual or otherwise (and especially games like APB) thrive by directly pandering to meta-whores and “muh e-sports” types.

Absolutely false to the ground.

People at the highest level have the most knowledge on how a game plays out and how it works, they're the BEST candidates to dictate how to properly balance the game.

But, the most important aspect to have when it comes to suggesting balancing changes is to have experience in other shooter games outside of APB and see what makes them good.

Your particular change would result in a overall bloom increase, thus increasing the margin of miss by a lot, making the game cattered towards the worse players.

You don't balance a game by introducing bloom (as the usual trend of balancing is steered towards), you balance it by adjusting recoil/damage/stk/range/ttk (most of which are extremely connected)

 

I'm not going to bother with the rest of the changes as I'm not interested in making a "bash OP" type of topic. I'm just going to say that I heavily disagree with these thoughts (which many other veterans will agree with I'm sure)

Edited March 18, 2023 by yourrandomnobody74

[TheMessiah 430]

imagine if imp rif actually workin on shotguns and u can kill players in 7m with 2 shots...

[proxie 271]

How dare you! You have no right to criticize my ideas and suggest that I don't know what I'm talking about. I have been playing APB for years and I know exactly what it takes to make a game balanced. Your suggestion of balancing around a single gun is ridiculous and would only make the game worse. You clearly don't understand the nuances of balancing a shooter game and your suggestion would only make the game more difficult for newer players. I'm tired of people like you who think they know better than everyone else and try to push their own agenda. Stop trying to tell me what to do and start listening to the people who actually know what they're talking about!

[Y2Venom 219]

On 3/18/2023 at 8:14 PM, yourrandomnobody74 said:

>What LO doesn’t understand however, is that no games, casual or otherwise (and especially games like APB) thrive by directly pandering to meta-whores and “muh e-sports” types.

Absolutely false to the ground.

 

Its absolutely true. They had their shot over and over again and the game declined in population faster then it should have. The experiment of threat segrigation proved it. Gold servers were Empty. New clientel chased away by the existing, unwelcoming, teritorial locals (Case Closed) Any business person would look at those stats and understand its not viable.

 

Its like the upper class who pretend to know about the homless situation, they dont live in it, have no problem stepping on them, but will only kick up a fuss when there is even a mention of a change that effects their lifestyle.

 

Merged.

 

On 3/18/2023 at 8:14 PM, yourrandomnobody74 said:

People at the highest level have the most knowledge on how a game plays out and how it works, they're the BEST candidates to dictate how to properly balance the game.

They are the worst people to ask. They are the imbalance. If they were not there, the game would be balanced. I worked for a subscription based service for a long time, with a very militant group (much like apb) . The job became appeasing the militant loud few on a daly basis (who all know how to run a company and what is best) We had to do this by email and chat,  whilst making decision on actual subscription growth and looking after the casual. Its the casual subs that actually make the money and they need to be looked after, just like in any business. 

 

 

 

 

[MrChan 337]

Not sure about the suggested changes to the NTEC cos honestly I just stopped looking at weapon stats years ago, but the OP's 100% right on it being ridiculous bullshoot and people going on about how 'balanced' it is (saying this means you do not understand what 'balance' is) and demanding the entire gun meta be balanced around it are just people not wanting to lose their crutch gun.

 

Edited March 18, 2023 by MrChan

[BlatMan 711]

They already tried that with improved rifling. It made it overpowered on mid range weapons, and useless on everything else.

 

I don't get why so many people think the NTEC is OP. It's a little better than the STAR but it's still limited. If anything the STAR needs some tweaks to make it worth renting the slotted versions.

[pesto 11]

On 3/18/2023 at 7:46 AM, Bound2Fail said:

• Slotted weapon unlocks:

 

1. 1 slot: Rank 3&4 (respective total kills: 50 & 100)
2. 2 slots: Rank 6&7 (respective total kills: 400 & 650)
3. 3 slots: Rank 10 (total kills: 1500)

can we just make all primary weapons have 3 open slots without grinding?

because if the new players get the weapon mods from marketplace, they still have to grind the kills to unlock the open slot guns and equip those weapon mods to slots.

and some other might say "if you don't like grinding, you can just buy 3 slots primary weapons from joker store and armas market."

well most of people buy the 3 open slots or pre-modified weapons from joker store and armas market for use it permanently and bypass the weapons grinding

but again, pay the money to bypass the grinding and get an advantage count as p2w.

 

so my suggestion is 'remove weapon slots grinding and open all the 3 slots'.

 

or if they really want them to buy the guns from armas or joker store, reduce the price. especially character permanents.

i understand the account permanent price. because you can still get those weapons when you make another characters.

but seriously, paying more than 10$ for one character is just outrageous. even joker store most of primary weapons with 3 open slots cost 20$ for one character.

when i play this game first time and try to buy some weapons from armas market. i thought most of guns are less then 10$ and more cheaper when is pre-modified or secondary

because it show on weapon category. but it was a day-rant price and permanents price is more than 10$. so i think multiple time to buy something in armas market and joker store

and most of new players probably have same experiences and thoughts. and they sick of these prices.

On 3/18/2023 at 7:46 AM, Bound2Fail said:

• Improved Rifling:

 

1.  Range improvement hinges on small percentages instead of raw values.
2. Replace the max bloom penalty with a ROF penalty.
3. Leave preset versions of the mod untouched.

LO already did the second one. but the people didn't like it so they revert it.

On 3/18/2023 at 7:46 AM, Bound2Fail said:

• N-HVR:

1. Damage: 770 -> 720
2. Remove the “damage with accuracy” gimmick.

kinda like the suggestion but the damage have to reduce more about 60~65% and increase hard damage about 270

 

 

[Optimus_Crime 81]

this reads like it was written by glaciers lol except even more pretentiously due to some false sense of security of anonymity

 

game balancing is a rabbit hole LO will never dig themselves out of and instead keep back pedaling on their decisions ten times over wasting yet again precious resources and time, ending up pleasing nobody due to not being all that familiar with the game or game balancing themselves.

I think what they should be focusing on is something that's new and is tied to your character progression to shake up this never ending meta cycle of what is basically a rat race of whoever gets to the mission objective first and then camps it like their fucking life depends on it which has been the core gameplay since the game came out. I do have some ideas that aren't all that farfetched and some maybe not that original but not out of LO's budget although i'd rather make a separate post.

Edited March 19, 2023 by Optimus_Crime

[vsb 6171]

On 3/17/2023 at 6:46 PM, Bound2Fail said:

• Satchel charges:

1. Now an orange mod.
2. Satchels become Breaching Charges: sticky throwables statistically similar to concussion grenades in terms of hard damage, 500 in stamina damage and throwing weight slightly heavier than frags. Can open doors remotely and are activated 0.6 seconds after they have been planted.
3. Breaching charges, once activated, are held, and then thrown with a single M1 click by default. Detonating the charges would optimally be done with a separate bind.

hp damage?

 

these also need to keep a fuse timer, even if they can still be manually detonated, to prevent them being used as improvised claymores

 

 

 

On 3/17/2023 at 6:46 PM, Bound2Fail said:

• Mobile Cover

1. Mobile cover becomes large enough to fit at least one people and a half and gets slightly raised to prevent pixel peeking.
2. Cooldown: 120s ->190s

Shields in their current state only serve to block objectives and ladders. Let them serve an actual defensive use instead of being an easily broken nuisance.

 

shields are already a disgustingly useful panic button, absolutely no buffs for them

 

 

 

On 3/17/2023 at 6:46 PM, Bound2Fail said:

• Radar Jammer:

1. Raise effects to 60m. Keep negatives.

Currently, there are very few reasons to use thanks to the small range of it. The mod would benefit from having users just barely visible on everybody’s radar before they get jammed. Speedy and loud playstyles got enough toys now, why not give some love to stealth, eh?

radar jammer would be more useful if it negated spotter, flaregun, tagger, and carspawns for its duration

 

 

 

On 3/17/2023 at 6:46 PM, Bound2Fail said:

• Car Surfer becomes an orange car mod.

1. Allows everybody to car surf onto a car equipped with it. -70% damage resistance. Just say that the chassis used to allow it requires thinner car plating or something, I dunno.

I must admit to bias here: I love car surfing, and while removing this from the game would be a good step, it would also remove something fun from the game. Detractors of it often say that CS completely ruined car chases by allowing cars AV turrets, and I completely agree, which is why I redesigned this mod into forcing a glass-canon approach to car surf to all vehicles, including the bigger ones like Pioneers (which, if my math is correct, wouldn’t be able to withstand a direct OSMAW rocket). Attempting to make cars tankier by adding Steel Plating would successfully reduce the penalty against ambushing AV outside of OSMAWs, at the cost of top speed, something you don’t want to lose in a car chase or during objective transitions. I like to think that this version of car surfing would make for a good “for fun” mod with niche tactical uses.

what is damage resistance? is this just -70% HP for vehicles? if so, that's far too much, especially considering nearly everyone who can mains high burn with an additional -15% vehicle HP

 

 

 

On 3/17/2023 at 6:46 PM, Bound2Fail said:

• Improved Rifling:

1.  Range improvement hinges on small percentages instead of raw values.
2. Replace the max bloom penalty with a ROF penalty.
3. Leave preset versions of the mod untouched.

Although it was rough around the edges back when LO did a similar thing, this change did show a good understanding of how gun mods should work in APB: as fundamental alterations to how guns behave, not direct upgrades. The slower ROF didn’t just make previously unusable guns usable; it made some viable: high RoF meme guns like the M1922 and the SHAW for example, became very fun to play with again thanks to them shooting fast enough for the server to catch up- it created so many cool things and combos that, for many, it became fun to toy around with gun mods again, and made discoveries some would have otherwise ignored.

Unfortunately, the excessive whining of NTEC mains getting outperformed by CR762s legitimate complaints over some preset weapons breaking had them revert it back to its prior state, which turned it back into a straight upgrade for almost every gun.

the tommy and the shaw are both perfectly viable guns, they see less use because there are even better alternatives

 

the fundamental issue with percentage based improved rifling is that its unable to boost short range weapons enough to be useful without being overtuned on long range weapons - a similar problem happens with high rof/low ttk guns (like the m1922 or the shaw) being able to eat the downside with minimal effect while low rof/high ttk guns are disproportionately affected

 

presets cannot be left untouched, too messy

 

anyone who uses improved rifling on an lmg is weird

 

 

 

On 3/17/2023 at 6:46 PM, Bound2Fail said:

• 3-Point-Sling:

1. 3-5-7% less character speed as the weapon equips itself.

I don’t understand why this mod in particular has no downsides whatsoever despite the insane bonus it holds. If anybody knows the reason why, do enlighten me.

This change also incentivizes the usage of lower levels of it. Currently, lower levels of 3PS may as well not exist.

unnecessary nerf to weapons that already suffer from long equip times like LMGs and sniper rifles

 

 

 

On 3/17/2023 at 6:46 PM, Bound2Fail said:

• High Magnification Scope:

 

Raise accuracy benefits to Hunting Sight 2’s (might be too low in comparison the downsides HMS holds, HS3 levels sounded more reasonable in my mind)

One of the reasons why this mod sucks is because guns fitted with this that would benefit from it can’t due to the piss-poor benefits the gun receives in exchange of tunnel vision and no crosshair. It’s a shame, because it’d otherwise be a serviceable, yet niche mod.

HMS already applies the accuracy bonuses of HS3

 

push it further and have HMS make every gun pixel accurate at full accuracy, HS4 if you will

also change the crosshair back to normal, its currently just annoying, and even unusable in certain conditions

 

 

 

On 3/17/2023 at 6:46 PM, Bound2Fail said:

• Firework Launcher

1. Now a yellow mod. Remove the spotting effect.

Same logic as Radar Tower. Nobody likes wallhacks. Let Spotter actually fill a role instead of giving players a tool that instantly does the job across a radius the size of the Atlantic Ocean.

have firework launcher ping affected enemies on radar instead of real time HUD trackers
 

whatever happens to firework launcher happens to spotter, there's no reason for any real time wallhacks in apb, its simply too strong of an advantage

 

 

 

On 3/17/2023 at 6:46 PM, Bound2Fail said:

• N-HVR:

1. Damage: 770 -> 720

any further damage nerfs to the hvr will require the scout also be reverted back to 550 damage, otherwise it will further overshadow the hvr

 

 

 

 

[LilyRain 674]

On 3/18/2023 at 2:46 AM, Bound2Fail said:

• Remove resupply boxes, med spray, and epinephrine.

Rather, Med Spray and Epinephrine should become equippables that requires left-click to work (just like Blowtorch). This will effectively place active weapons out of use till they are re-equipped, making the consumables not comically broken when used in an active fight.

 

Also for Epinephrine:

+50% Sprint Speed → +20%.
+20% Run Speed → +7%.

Edited March 19, 2023 by LilyRain

[Connor 6]

Fully agree on mob spawner removal, ntec changes required and changes to firework launcher.

 

Breaching charge suggestion sounds interesting.

 

I would like to see roof surfer completely removed personally but a significant nerf would be a big step in the right direction at least.

 

Consumables were a good idea implemented terribly, they should not be as effective in combat as they are now. Injector is just ridiculous as it currently stands, so effective and useful in both aggression and defence in combat. One of Reloaded's many 'what the f*** were they thinking' additions. I don't know how to fix med-spray, but injector should have a significant wind-up time before sprint speed is given and the health penalty should be harsher. It should be a risky way of getting back into a mission quicker, at the cost of much greater health than it is now at best imo.

[yourrandomnobody74 106]

18 hours ago, Y2Venom said:

 

Its absolutely true. They had their shot over and over again and the game declined in population faster then it should have. The experiment of threat segrigation proved it. Gold servers were Empty. New clientel chased away by the existing, unwelcoming, teritorial locals (Case Closed) Any business person would look at those stats and understand its not viable.

 

Its like the upper class who pretend to know about the homless situation, they dont live in it, have no problem stepping on them, but will only kick up a fuss when there is even a mention of a change that effects their lifestyle.

 

18 hours ago, Y2Venom said:

They are the worst people to ask. They are the imbalance. If they were not there, the game would be balanced. I worked for a subscription based service for a long time, with a very militant group (much like apb) . The job became appeasing the militant loud few on a daly basis (who all know how to run a company and what is best) We had to do this by email and chat,  whilst making decision on actual subscription growth and looking after the casual. Its the casual subs that actually make the money and they need to be looked after, just like in any business. 

 

 

 

 

 

You mean the numerious attempts at Qwentle misinterpreting (be it on purpose or not) the community's plea's, knowing what the fundamental issue with this game is?

Like the high TTK district which they've butchered on purpose? Or the RTW TTK district which was also butchered on purpose to "prove a point"?

Or the huge suggestion forums which spans over a decade of suggestions (rip old forums) by the community with amazing QoL changes? (dopefish's list comes to mind) yet rarely any feature from there was considered to be implemented (even though at least 50% of them were feasible for implementation during the whole decade this game has been out for)

The devs have rarely listened to people who know what long-term mechanics prevail.

 

Look at CS, the game hasn't changed in over 3 decades yet there are over a milion people playing it.

Why?

Because the fundamental gameplay is easy to get into, hard to master.

 

Relying on customization as your main attraction in a game is not gonna last long, especially with how many issues it has compared to modern counterparts.

The game should be a shooter at first, barbie simulator at second. The opposite is, unfortunately, true. 

 

APB doesn't know what it wants to be, and with the 'recent-ish' changes suggested by SPCT testers (NTEC ones specifically), they don't seem to know how to balance guns either.

Increasing the TTK by adding bloom does not result in a consistent and robust experience for newcomers and veterans alike.

Have you ever talked to a newcomer?

"OmG WhY DoEsNt MY gUn KILl HiM AfTeR 50 ShOtS oN HiM, BAD GAME!!!! BAD SERVERS!!!"

Even though they've just been out RNG'd by the game.

No, telling him to "control" the gun does not result in a better experience either.

  

Ever since APB:R got released, the game had no clue how guns should be done. The addition of reskins doesn't do any favour to the act of weapon balancing either.

Proper balancing would be making the game skill-based, rewarding grinders and not be at the mercy of RNG to decide whether you win a fight or not.

[SacheM 17]

+1 change n-tec,more balance,etc 

[Y2Venom 219]

7 hours ago, yourrandomnobody74 said:

 

 

You mean the numerious attempts at Qwentle misinterpreting (be it on purpose or not) the community's plea's, knowing what the fundamental issue with this game is?

Like the high TTK district which they've butchered on purpose? Or the RTW TTK district which was also butchered on purpose to "prove a point"?

Or the huge suggestion forums which spans over a decade of suggestions (rip old forums) by the community with amazing QoL changes? (dopefish's list comes to mind) yet rarely any feature from there was considered to be implemented (even though at least 50% of them were feasible for implementation during the whole decade this game has been out for)

The devs have rarely listened to people who know what long-term mechanics prevail.

Just because you use a service it doesnt make you an expert. It makes you an expert in what suits you and all big changes that have been made were to suit a small powerful demographic in the game. This has come as a detrement to the wider community.

 

In terms of the changes that can be made to the game, from the suggestion forum. I really think the game is limited in what can actually be done. I remember TW adding 1 clothing piece and breaking the whole game. Huge updates had to be done.

 

 

 

 

 

[vsb 6171]

23 minutes ago, Y2Venom said:

all big changes that have been made were to suit a small powerful demographic in the game

huh?

 

lower ttk, damage drop off, threat calculation changes, visual threat changes, threat segregation, anti-dethreating measures, sprint shooting changes, new (broken) mods, new (broken) guns, nerfs on top of nerfs on top of nerfs

 

i won't say all of it was bad but all of it was definitely intended for the large majority of casuals who couldn't keep up with the top players

 

if the gold 10 illuminati exists then why has the ntec been changed more than any other gun?

[Y2Venom 219]

3 minutes ago, glaciers said:

huh?

 

lower ttk, damage drop off, threat calculation changes, visual threat changes, threat segregation, anti-dethreating measures, sprint shooting changes, new (broken) mods, new (broken) guns, nerfs on top of nerfs on top of nerfs

 

i won't say all of it was bad but all of it was definitely intended for the large majority of casuals who couldn't keep up with the top players

 

if the gold 10 illuminati exists then why has the ntec been changed more than any other gun?

None of these changes are for the casual players ....

 

Threat calculation has been the worst its ever been. But it can only do so much when players stick together.

Threat segrigation removed = protect the golds, who killed their own servers (because they wont play with others)

Anti-dethreating measures = there were none. 

Sprint shooting = never a big issue

bounty = protect the golds

No weapon mods were for casual players.

 

We all know the top kabal of players exist and there are a few different groups. They only stick together to stomp PUGS. Some of them have alts in different clans. They have multiple accounts should they lose one. Some of them identify through their profile picture and not a clan name. When an update is done, some of them use their alts to test it, so they can make some changes to their "configs" to share amongst each other. If too many of them are banned, they throw a hissy fit. (wont go into detail there)

 

 

If you were going to look after the game as a whole.  You remove pre-made teams from the servers. Servers are all PUGS Vs PUGS. Have servers purley for clan warfair, let clans compete there. 

Have purgitory servers for suspected cheaters who have new accounts as well other players who have been bold for what ever reason.......

 

If people are continually losing on purpose in order to enter a server or stay in a server. That server is doing something right. Now its gone.

 

 

 

 

[vsb 6171]

32 minutes ago, Y2Venom said:

None of these changes are for the casual players ....

lower ttk was introduced to reduce the impact of tracking in gun fights so casuals have to aim less

damage drop off was introduced to push the game further into a rock paper scissors balance for casuals to rely on

threat calculation has been changed to make it easier to get gold threat so casuals could feel better

visual threat icons were reduced to 4 colors to make the game less competitive so casuals could feel better

threat segregation was introduced to separate the mix of different skill levels so casuals only face casuals

anti-dethreating measures were implemented (demerits, demerit kicks, score requirements) to protect casual players from other casual players

sprint shooting was nerfed because casuals had trouble aiming

several new mods like car surfer, high burn fuel, spotter, etc, all dumb the game down for the lowest common denominator 

new guns, legendaries in particular, have often been released overpowered to tempt casuals who feel they need a crutch to compete

nerfs generally happen to any gun the perceived top players are using

 

again not all these changes are bad, but they all help out the casuals

if the gold 10 illuminati exists then why isn't apb a hyper-competitive game with great rewards for the best players?

[Y2Venom 219]

20 hours ago, glaciers said:

lower ttk was introduced to reduce the impact of tracking in gun fights so casuals have to aim less

damage drop off was introduced to push the game further into a rock paper scissors balance for casuals to rely on

threat calculation has been changed to make it easier to get gold threat so casuals could feel better

visual threat icons were reduced to 4 colors to make the game less competitive so casuals could feel better

threat segregation was introduced to separate the mix of different skill levels so casuals only face casuals

anti-dethreating measures were implemented (demerits, demerit kicks, score requirements) to protect casual players from other casual players

sprint shooting was nerfed because casuals had trouble aiming

several new mods like car surfer, high burn fuel, spotter, etc, all dumb the game down for the lowest common denominator 

new guns, legendaries in particular, have often been released overpowered to tempt casuals who feel they need a crutch to compete

nerfs generally happen to any gun the perceived top players are using

 

again not all these changes are bad, but they all help out the casuals

if the gold 10 illuminati exists then why isn't apb a hyper-competitive game with great rewards for the best players?

Thats like feeding breadcrumbs to the starving or putting a bandaid on severed limb with little or no impact to the casual players.

 

Also a lot of this was done pre threat segrigation and yet with everything in place people still wanted to avoid the Gold Servers, because they " dont work"

 

Just avoidance measures about what really needs to be done.

 

 

 

 

[proxie 271]

On 3/20/2023 at 1:33 AM, glaciers said:

lower ttk was introduced to reduce the impact of tracking in gun fights so casuals have to aim less

damage drop off was introduced to push the game further into a rock paper scissors balance for casuals to rely on

threat calculation has been changed to make it easier to get gold threat so casuals could feel better

visual threat icons were reduced to 4 colors to make the game less competitive so casuals could feel better

threat segregation was introduced to separate the mix of different skill levels so casuals only face casuals

anti-dethreating measures were implemented (demerits, demerit kicks, score requirements) to protect casual players from other casual players

sprint shooting was nerfed because casuals had trouble aiming

several new mods like car surfer, high burn fuel, spotter, etc, all dumb the game down for the lowest common denominator 

new guns, legendaries in particular, have often been released overpowered to tempt casuals who feel they need a crutch to compete

nerfs generally happen to any gun the perceived top players are using

 

again not all these changes are bad, but they all help out the casuals

if the gold 10 illuminati exists then why isn't apb a hyper-competitive game with great rewards for the best players?

The above text paints a picture of a game that has been designed to cater to casual players at the expense of more competitive players. This is an unfair and inaccurate assessment of the changes that have been made to APB. 

 

First, the introduction of lower TTK and damage drop off was not done to make the game easier for casuals, but rather to create a more balanced and strategic experience. Lower TTK allows for more tactical play, as players must be aware of their surroundings and plan their attacks accordingly. Damage drop off encourages players to use different weapons and strategies depending on the situation, rather than relying on one overpowered weapon. 

 

Second, the changes to threat calculation and visual threat icons were not made to make the game easier for casuals, but rather to make it easier for all players to understand the game's mechanics. The reduction of visual threat icons to four colors makes it easier for players to identify threats and plan their strategies accordingly. 

 

Third, the introduction of anti-dethreating measures was not done to protect casual players from other casual players, but rather to ensure that all players have a fair and balanced experience. Demerits, demerit kicks, and score requirements all help to ensure that players are not unfairly punished for their mistakes. 

 

Finally, the nerfing of sprint shooting and the introduction of new guns were not done to make the game easier for casuals, but rather to create a more balanced and strategic experience. The nerfing of sprint shooting encourages players to use different weapons and strategies depending on the situation, rather than relying on one overpowered weapon. The introduction of new guns, such as legendaries, allows for more variety in the game and encourages players to experiment with different strategies. 

 

In conclusion, the changes that have been made to APB have not been done to make the game easier for casuals, but rather to create a more balanced and strategic experience for all players. 

[BlatMan 711]

How is reducing the resolution at which players can compare threat making it easier to identify threat? The threat display change was like measuring in millimeters, to measuring in centimeters. There's a huge difference between gold 1 and gold 10, just like there's a huge difference between 31mm and 40mm.

[vsb 6171]

1 hour ago, proxie said:

The

really getting the most out of that chatgpt subscription i see

[Yapopal 168]

I would make a bustinado to a person who allowed players to use running without pressing the Shift key.

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Yapopal

[Noob_Guardian 418]

I disagree with someof this, but agree with other parts, but there's just so much to go through lol. I'll simply touch on a few.

 

I think orange mods are fine, no changes needed, no need to rework satchel, i'd be fine with creating a new thing for blowing open doors similar to your idea though.

 

3PS3 +1 - Really it doesn't make sense at all. Slower movement when weapon swapping seems fine enough.

 

IR3 +1 - TBH i liked the slower firerate thing, but it was a bit bonkers on some guns (NSSW perfect accuracy FTW), and others like the LCR it kinda just made it worse because It already has perfect accuracy and a high af ttk. I do agree that it was fine, but the issue I noticed is that no-one wanted to not use it for the range benefit so they complained. There's not a lot of red mods to use on assault rifles... CJ kinda just makes them suck, no-one dares HB because the damage decrease (which is roughly equivalent to using the IR3 variant) and IR is the only -other- option. If they did change IR3 back, I'd think a somewhat different mod needs made or adjustments to HB should be done.

 

NTEC nerf - +1 pretty much, even after it's "atroucious nerfs and gimmicks" as people call it hit the gun, it's still top tier. Ironically FAR was considered OP for a time, which made no sense because NTEC was never changed, and the far has almost identical stats to STAR (other than ttk, reload, and .5 difference to accuracy). So I feel even a slight dial back wouldn't be bad. I'd probably hit it's ttk though... Make the star at .7 and the NTEC at .75, see how that feels. NTECs a mid-long range weapon, it should not have the CQC TTK of one.

 

Firework launcher - Nah

 

HVR - +1, it feels so bad to use now, especially after the damage nerf lol. Accuracy tied to it just feels horrendous, oh jeeze 3x shot in cqc, he still lived *eyeroll* No really just fix the damn thing already.