What should dictate the weapon meta?

[Reprimand 98]

I see a lot of people arguing over the recent weapon balancing changes so I want to ask you all honestly: What do you think should dictate the weapon meta? 

 

Should it be player ranks? Weapon popularity? Accessibility? What do you think? 

[FakeBungo 248]

Just now, Reprimand said:

I see a lot of people arguing over the recent weapon balancing changes so I want to ask you all honestly: What do you think should dictate the weapon meta? 

 

Should it be player ranks? Weapon popularity? Accessibility? What do you think? 

me

[Nagletz 215]

Nothing, every weapon should be good at their own tier

[AlienTM 138]

to be fun to play with..the only important(for me at least)

[vsb 6171]

2 hours ago, Reprimand said:

What do you think should dictate the weapon meta? 

the meta is always going to be dictated by what is the most effective option, that's why its called the meta

 

the only thing that affects the meta is balance changes

[Flaws 1033]

Taking into consideration that APB is a PvP shooter which is played competitively (as in not just purely for "fun", but most commonly with the desire to win), the meta should always be optimized for high/top tier players because those are the players who will always maximize the potential of any weapon (out of the entire playerbase). Lesser players will then have to grind (focus on using) weapons until they learn them and get better and better instead of having kills handed to them for free. There should be no weapons that are too easy while being highly effective and there should be no weapons that have had their skill ceiling artificially lowered. The current state of the N-TEC 5 is a perfect example of artificially lowered skill ceiling (due to its extreme bloom and reliance on RNG), while the current JG is a perfect example of a weapon being far too easy while being, not only extremely effective but in fact, the most effective in the entire pointman category (due to how forgiving it is to missed shots, as well as corner popping). These two examples alone speak volumes about how horrible the current balancing is and thats just scratching the surface.

 

A lot of what they've been doing has been throwing more and more RNG at weapons, trying to fix a problem which cannot be fixed by RNG. We should be moving in the opposite direction instead, making weapons more reliable and skillful and less relying on RNG and luck.

[MonkaS 215]

3 hours ago, Flaws said:

A lot of what they've been doing has been throwing more and more RNG at weapons, trying to fix a problem which cannot be fixed by RNG. We should be moving in the opposite direction instead, making weapons more reliable and skillful and less relying on RNG and luck.

^ this. stop giving every gun high max bloom, slow bloom recovery, and high bloom per shot; slowing avg ttk by adding more RNG is just stupid and lazy.

[BlatMan 711]

The N-TEC 5 always had a low skill ceiling. Back in beta you just had to tap fire for range, or spray up close. You didn't need good timing either because there was no bloom curve. Current N-TEC5 requires shooting it in 3-4 round bursts at range, or spray up close.

 

If you chose to rely on randomness to win a fight, it's your fault if you lose.

[Yapopal 169]

Why would I take a shotgun when I can pull the NTEC trigger? Why take a sniper rifle, if the maximum distance is 100 meters, you need to play with NTEC. All people play with NTEC, I will also play with NTEC. Other weapons in the game are used by fools who know nothing about how to shoot with NTEC. The Obey rifle, of course, can still be taken, but this is on Tuesdays, on the day of macros.

[wigbilly69420 6]

mattscott thinks he will lose players by banning people, yeah no shit you will lose cheaters who ruin the game for others. apb would have 10 times more population if you banned the 5% of the population who are blatantly cheating. mattscott clearly has zero understanding of how cheaters destroy gaming, he doesn't even play apb himself so thats not surprising.

[Jilleroo 349]

On 8/31/2021 at 11:23 AM, MonkaS said:

^ this. stop giving every gun high max bloom, slow bloom recovery, and high bloom per shot; slowing avg ttk by adding more RNG is just stupid and lazy.

Ya, if they want the ttk to be higher, they need to buff up the actual player HP and stop screwing with the guns.

Edited September 1, 2021 by EvaPooh

[MonkaS 215]

6 hours ago, EvaPooh said:

Ya, if they want the ttk to be higher, they need to buff up the actual player HP and stop screwing with the guns.

I mean the game was originally designed for a much slower ttk why do you think the animations are so long; makes is soooooooo much easier to camp stuff and it makes maps like waterfront so unforgiving. 

Edited September 2, 2021 by MonkaS

[Hexerin 1140]

7 hours ago, EvaPooh said:

Ya, if they want the ttk to be higher, they need to buff up the actual player HP and stop screwing with the guns.

You don't buff player HP to increase TTK, you lower weapon damage.

[Jilleroo 349]

25 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

You don't buff player HP to increase TTK, you lower weapon damage.

Whatever, increase the ttk. Game is sh!t.

[Hexerin 1140]

2 hours ago, EvaPooh said:

Whatever, increase the ttk. Game is sh!t.

I don't disagree. Having a higher TTK makes consistency more important, which rewards skillful gameplay more than RNG reliance. With a higher TTK, maybe we could also see the return of various features that G1/RG stripped out and are the source of many of the game's currently gameplay/balance problems (like item pickup animations, which prevented things like the medium/heavy item mobility exploits).

[PotatoeGirl 220]

The power factor of every gun should be based around the Star.

 

Also considering how laggy this game is, it really needs longer TTKs. Sometimes I die before can even see than I am taking dmg. 

A lot of times I start landing shots first and the other guy turns around and still kills me in half a time. 

Edited September 10, 2021 by PotatoeGirl

[LilyRain 674]

Higher ttk would be the last straw for APB. Anyone who vouches for longer time-to-kill clearly wants to see the game dead for good.

 

APB unquestionably has:

- Epicly easy time for premades. They don't even need good-cohesion. They can be seconds upon seconds apart and still finish the target (assuming the target isn't hiding behind a wall).

- A handful of weapons that are in massive need for a buff to compete against the meta (if you haven't noticed, these weapons are garbage because THEY TAKE TOO LONG TO KILL).

- Servers are already suffering to run APB's heavily-modified Unreal-code. Districts used to feature 50v50 Players but were lowered to 40v40 and ghost-shots are still a common sight. Increasing the average tkk would make things more RNG-dependent.
- Weapons already have massive roleplay-like bloom that will continue to exist because APB is an 'RPG' and thus we can't have nice things such as real-recoil (APB being RPG is the reason why it can't stand in the market, because it is frantically done in a non-appealing way for a shooter).

Increasing the general time-to-kill will indirectly make all of these worse. A lot worse... No thank you. That's the last thing this game needs.

 

[MonkaS 215]

1 hour ago, LilyRain said:

Higher ttk would be the last straw for APB. Anyone who vouches for longer time-to-kill clearly wants to see the game dead for good.

 

APB unquestionably has:

- Epicly easy time for premades. They don't even need good-cohesion. They can be seconds upon seconds apart and still finish the target (assuming the target isn't hiding behind a wall).

- A handful of weapons that are in massive need for a buff to compete against the meta (if you haven't noticed, these weapons are garbage because THEY TAKE TOO LONG TO KILL).

- Servers are already suffering to run APB's heavily-modified Unreal-code. Districts used to feature 50v50 Players but were lowered to 40v40 and ghost-shots are still a common sight. Increasing the average tkk would make things more RNG-dependent.
- Weapons already have massive roleplay-like bloom that will continue to exist because APB is an 'RPG' and thus we can't have nice things such as real-recoil (APB being RPG is the reason why it can't stand in the market, because it is frantically done in a non-appealing way for a shooter).

Increasing the general time-to-kill will indirectly make all of these worse. A lot worse... No thank you. That's the last thing this game needs.

 

- premades will always have a huge advantage regardless of ttk 

 

- sooooo fix the net code and servers? with current ttk its already almost unplayable so who cares

 

- yea no one is advocating for more bloom should be less bloom and slower ttk so tracking matters more and not rng like it does now

[LilyRain 674]

2 minutes ago, MonkaS said:

- premades will always have a huge advantage regardless of ttk 

 

- sooooo fix the net code and servers? with current ttk its already almost unplayable so who cares

 

- yea no one is advocating for more bloom should be less bloom and slower ttk so tracking matters more and not rng like it does now

- "Always" isn't right and can never be true. The longer the time-to-kill the greater the premade advantage. We should be getting less of that, not more.

 

- Better dedicated servers cost money. Recall that LO dropped EAC for BattleEye because it was expensive. Perhaps if you'd be so kind and sponsor/fund the servers for LO then that could be feasible.

 

- There will be nothing to track when it is so easy to find a wall/car to hide behind. This isn't APEX, this is APB. The spatial-design doesn't accommodate for longer ttk.

[Hexerin 1140]

3 hours ago, LilyRain said:

- A handful of weapons that are in massive need for a buff to compete against the meta (if you haven't noticed, these weapons are garbage because THEY TAKE TOO LONG TO KILL).

They aren't garbage because they take too long to kill, they're garbage because the game's TTK is so short compared to them. By lengthening the TTK (through reducing the damage of the current strongest weapons), these garbage weapons will naturally become strong because the TTK is now at their level (while the current strongest weapons also remain strong). The fact that you can't see this most simple and basic of facts brings many questions about your competency in these types of discussions.

2 hours ago, LilyRain said:

- Better dedicated servers cost money. Recall that LO dropped EAC for BattleEye because it was expensive. Perhaps if you'd be so kind and sponsor/fund the servers for LO then that could be feasible.

LO dropped EAC because Epic was attempting to hike the price up while also cutting half the product away from the contract. It had nothing to do with being "too expensive".

2 hours ago, LilyRain said:

- There will be nothing to track when it is so easy to find a wall/car to hide behind. This isn't APEX, this is APB. The spatial-design doesn't accommodate for longer ttk.

Yes, and having enough time to get behind cover is literally one of the points. As the game currently stands, attempting to approach the enemy (or even simply cross the street) is a death sentence that the victim can do literally nothing about. This is part of why car gameplay is so prevalent, it's the only way to actually do anything in most situations in the game. The low TTK is also why corner camping with the third-person perspective is so strong, a longer TTK allows the pushers to actually push in and fight without having to resort to explosive spam.

 

Seriously Lily, you need to start thinking. The game was literally designed for a significantly longer TTK in the first place, and most of the game's ongoing balance problems can be traced back to G1/RG's decision to massively reduce it when they acquired the game a decade ago.

[LilyRain 674]

29 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

They aren't garbage because they take too long to kill, they're garbage because the game's TTK is so short compared to them. By lengthening the TTK (through reducing the damage of the current strongest weapons), these garbage weapons will naturally become strong because the TTK is now at their level (while the current strongest weapons also remain strong). The fact that you can't see this most simple and basic of facts brings many questions about your competency in these types of discussions.

That's the most weak argument I've seen in a while. You wouldn't do a better job if you were the one in charge of balancing.

 

Making the meta weaker to give more weight to garbage weapons won't make them any less garbage and won't make the game better. The game simply doesn't accommodate for more ttk. There are cars and walls everywhere. Currently even the dominant strat is to tank everything and heal it off with CA3 behind walls or get back in a car, like it never happened. If you increase ttk, no one will die at the top-level but you clearly aren't good enough to have experienced it. You're only good at providing false-feedback to be able to 'compete', So no, you aren't the person with enough "competency" to discuss such things because you ignore every factor other than the one you want. Nothing but sheer simplicity, which never worked historically for APB nor will ever work.

 

32 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

LO dropped EAC because Epic was attempting to hike the price up while also cutting half the product away from the contract. It had nothing to do with being "too expensive".

Yes, and having enough time to get behind cover is literally one of the points. As the game currently stands, attempting to approach the enemy (or even simply cross the street) is a death sentence that the victim can do literally nothing about. This is part of why car gameplay is so prevalent, it's the only way to actually do anything in most situations in the game. The low TTK is also why corner camping with the third-person perspective is so strong, a longer TTK allows the pushers to actually push in and fight without having to resort to explosive spam.

Hiking the price up has nothing to do with "expensive", wow, just wow. Statement of the century right here, Ladies and Gentlemen. You can't even troll right.

 

So you want longer ttks because you can't drive a car worth only $100 per spawn, okay.

 

That is horribly wrong and a hard disagree. 3rd-person always gives the advantage to the one holding the corner. If ttk is lengthened, by the time the pusher reaches the corner, he/she will have to fight with reduced HP anyways because they tanked some shots along the way. If anything, you'd only be delaying the inevitable and making it even easier on the camper. If anything, lower-ttk makes the player holding the corner more vulnerable if they make a mistake and they would think twice about peeking all the things, because any damage they receive matters.

 

34 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Seriously Lily, you need to start thinking. The game was literally designed for a significantly longer TTK in the first place, and most of the game's ongoing balance problems can be traced back to G1/RG's decision to massively reduce it when they acquired the game a decade ago.

And you still have the tenacity to tell people to think, astonishing. You don't even think yourself before puking words.

 

No, take your rage elsewhere. This isn't APEX nor Quake. Take your longer-ttk nonsense to a game where it belongs or just go and play them.

 

Familiarize yourself with APB and play against actual good players before further making a fool out of yourself.

[yourrandomnobody74 106]

1 hour ago, LilyRain said:

That's the most weak argument I've seen in a while. You wouldn't do a better job if you were the one in charge of balancing.

 

Making the meta weaker to give more weight to garbage weapons won't make them any less garbage and won't make the game better. The game simply doesn't accommodate for more ttk. There are cars and walls everywhere. Currently even the dominant strat is to tank everything and heal it off with CA3 behind walls or get back in a car, like it never happened. If you increase ttk, no one will die at the top-level but you clearly aren't good enough to have experienced it. You're only good at providing false-feedback to be able to 'compete', So no, you aren't the person with enough "competency" to discuss such things because you ignore every factor other than the one you want. Nothing but sheer simplicity, which never worked historically for APB nor will ever work.

 

Hiking the price up has nothing to do with "expensive", wow, just wow. Statement of the century right here, Ladies and Gentlemen. You can't even troll right.

And you still have the tenacity to tell people to think, astonishing. You don't even think yourself before puking words.

Familiarize yourself with APB and play against actual good players before further making a fool out of yourself.

I'm not gonna even try get in an arguement with you as you are completely delusional and lack any kind of awareness what makes a game competitive and skill-based, this can be clearly deduced from all of the posts you derail with your "anti long TTK talk"

I do agree the arguements the previous posts have mentioned have been very vague and not thought through of completely (as people can't visualize what long TTK and no RNG/bloom would look like and perform like, 0.9-1.1s TTK is completely fine with proper adjustments to mods, and some other weapon parameters, would make the game much more enjoyable)

However, your arguements are very weak and you calling everyone opposing you "a troll", "incompetent" , "making a fool of himself" , "puking words" do not make your arguements better nor do they devalue the opinion you are opposing. They just enforce the fact you are extremely childish and inexperienced in debating, and moreso inexperienced in this game and what makes a FPS/TPS game skill based and good to play.

If you think you are so much better and you are so familiar with APB, care to share some gameplay and show us how this game is played at a higher level? As we all clearly lack the knowledge, guide us great APB guru

Edited September 3, 2021 by qb

[LilyRain 674]

5 minutes ago, qb said:

I'm not gonna even try get in an arguement with you as you are completely delusional and lack any kind of awareness what makes a game competitive and skill-based, this can be clearly deduced from all of the posts you derail with your "anti long TTK talk"

I do agree the arguements the previous posts have been very vague and not thought through of completely (as people can't visualize what long TTK and no RNG/bloom would look like)

However, your arguements are very weak and you calling everyone opposing you "a troll", "incompetent" , "making a fool of himself" , "puking words" do not make your arguements better nor do they devalue the opinion you are opposing. They just enforce the fact you are extremely childish and inexperienced in arguing, and moreso inexperienced in this game and what makes a FPS/TPS game skill based and good to play.

If you think you are so much better and you are so familiar with APB, care to share some gameplay and show us how this game is played at a higher level? As we all clearly lack the knowledge, guide us great APB guru

You better not since you don't know who you're addressing.

 

I have laid out exactly why longer-ttk in APB would be the last thing APB needs but it seems you also did not read a word. You also didn't objectively lay out why longer-tkks would work for APB, simply because you can't.

 

I don't see you people using CCG or a "skill based" weapon that actually takes time to neutralize targets, so learn your place and yes, I have arrested some of the best players in both NA and EU, with Fragile equipped nontheless.

 

Now who are YOU to talk? What are your achievements other than empty forum replies with a smiley face?

Edited September 3, 2021 by LilyRain

[vsb 6171]

6 hours ago, LilyRain said:

Higher ttk would be the last straw for APB. Anyone who vouches for longer time-to-kill clearly wants to see the game dead for good.

 

APB unquestionably has:

- Epicly easy time for premades. They don't even need good-cohesion. They can be seconds upon seconds apart and still finish the target (assuming the target isn't hiding behind a wall).

- A handful of weapons that are in massive need for a buff to compete against the meta (if you haven't noticed, these weapons are garbage because THEY TAKE TOO LONG TO KILL).

- Servers are already suffering to run APB's heavily-modified Unreal-code. Districts used to feature 50v50 Players but were lowered to 40v40 and ghost-shots are still a common sight. Increasing the average tkk would make things more RNG-dependent.
- Weapons already have massive roleplay-like bloom that will continue to exist because APB is an 'RPG' and thus we can't have nice things such as real-recoil (APB being RPG is the reason why it can't stand in the market, because it is frantically done in a non-appealing way for a shooter).

Increasing the general time-to-kill will indirectly make all of these worse. A lot worse... No thank you. That's the last thing this game needs.

 

-apb is a team based game at its core, i dont think its unreasonable to lean into that with higher ttks, especially when there will eventually be a matchmaking system capable of separating premade and solos

 

-weapons considered trash because of higher ttks are considered so because of the disparity between average/meta ttk and and their own higher ttk, if the average ttk was lengthened this disparity would lessen

 

-increasing ttk by lowering damage (missed shots are pess punishing) or decreasing rof (less chance of shots falling between frames) would lessen the effects of poor network code, not that the game should be balanced around such a thing anyway

 

-weapons would need to be rebalanced regardless, theres no reason that bloom and spread would not be taken into account

i think a longer ttk would allow for more accurate weapons as well, as minimum ttk moving closer to effective ttk would mean weapons dont need the artificial rng the current ttk requires

 

 

overall im not certain i support a longer ttk, while it would have a lot of benefits i think the biggest obstacle would be many players finding the slower game pace less fun than other shooters

[Hexerin 1140]

3 hours ago, LilyRain said:

-snip-

You are completely delusional and clearly have no capacity for rational discussion. I will no longer be responding to you on this topic.